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> Cyberstalking list leaks, So much for sooper sekricy
Herschelkrustofsky
post Mon 1st August 2011, 12:47am
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Sun 31st July 2011, 4:52pm) *

This thread probably should be merged with the Cyberstalking list thread in the Arbcom-L leaks forum.


Mod response: can do.
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melloden
post Mon 1st August 2011, 3:02am
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How did they get these @wikia.com email addresses? There was on for "wpinvestigations@wikia.com" or something like that--did/does Wikia give out emails to every site, or was this arranged by Jimbo?
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Somey
post Mon 1st August 2011, 3:18am
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QUOTE(melloden @ Sun 31st July 2011, 10:02pm) *
How did they get these @wikia.com email addresses? There was on for "wpinvestigations@wikia.com" or something like that--did/does Wikia give out emails to every site, or was this arranged by Jimbo?

Wikia hosted both mailing lists ("wpinvestigations" and "cyberstalking"). We offered to host them ourselves, here on WR, but they didn't even reply to our kind offer! unhappy.gif

Ironically, I suspect their discussions would actually have been more secure here than on Wikia.
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thekohser
post Mon 1st August 2011, 3:46am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 31st July 2011, 11:18pm) *

QUOTE(melloden @ Sun 31st July 2011, 10:02pm) *
How did they get these @wikia.com email addresses? There was on for "wpinvestigations@wikia.com" or something like that--did/does Wikia give out emails to every site, or was this arranged by Jimbo?

Wikia hosted both mailing lists ("wpinvestigations" and "cyberstalking"). We offered to host them ourselves, here on WR, but they didn't even reply to our kind offer! unhappy.gif

Ironically, I suspect their discussions would actually have been more secure here than on Wikia.


Wikia is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE organization from Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.

Why are you all having such a difficult time accepting that?
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WordBomb
post Mon 1st August 2011, 4:35am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 31st July 2011, 3:15pm) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 30th July 2011, 5:42pm) *

This. Quoted below in case it goes byebye.

QUOTE
[edit] Overstock.com, David Gerard, and the blocking of the town of Lehi, Utah

Jimbo, are the emails linked to here genuine? If so, do you still support what David Gerard did there to mislead an Associated Press reporter who was investigating the WordBomb/Mantanmoreland affair and support Gerard's range block of an entire community in Utah? Cla68 (talk) 00:21, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


Wales reponds!

QUOTE(Wales)

Wow, Cla68, that's a pretty outrageous summary of what happened there. What David Gerard was trying to do there was find a way to explain the situation truthfully (which he did) without making it seem interesting (when it wasn't). This is quite common in handling press inquiries - you have to be very careful not to *create* a story when there isn't one. The last thing you want to do is say something interesting when there is actually nothing interesting to be said. So you have to write it up in a very boring way, being very careful to avoid inflaming a situation.

Bagley was making outrageous and frankly ludicrous claims about what can only be called a conspiracy theory. I remember reading his theory that I was somehow, due to my background working in the financial markets, in cahoots with the global conspiracy of financial journalists to cover up wrongdoing in the financial markets. He wrote in a very breathless style at the time about "I happen to have proof of something they want very much to suppress. It's really very sordid and to anybody's knowledge, this sort of thing has never happened before." Total ranting nonsense, that.

Yes, I fully support that range block, and I'm unaware of any legitimate complaints about it. When you have someone behaving as Bagley was (ongoing sockpuppeting), there is often little choice but the block an entire range - you know this, as it unfortunately happens all the time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)


Ahem. I'm afraid it's less than correct to say that "What David Gerard was trying to do there was find a way to explain the situation truthfully (which he did) without making it seem interesting (when it wasn't)." It is interesting (though this is a matter of taste). And as for the "truthfulness part," it depends on what Gerard knew at the time. Factual, it isn't.

Mr. Wales, you know, don't you, that the email you sent Gerard that said "Brilliant!" in getting a reporter to think that Bagley had violated WP's "fairness rules" (as a newbie less than a day old), was regarded Bagley's complaint that Wikipedia was being manipulated by a journalist named Weiss on matters of Overstock and shortselling and Wiess' BLP, and that Weiss was [[user:Mantanmoreland]]? And (later) that he had a number of socks on WP, which was what Bagley was banned for? You copied Mantanmoreland on your email, and you also copied one of his later identified socks, [[user:samiharris]]. And Bagley's other complaint was that these were being protected unfairly by [[user:SlimVirgin]], who was the OTHER person you copied?

If all this was true (which it proved to be) then the Wikipedia actions against Bagley certainly looked like a conspiracy, even if it was merely the manipulation of a bunch of clueless administrators. SlimVirgin AT LEAST had the grace to (later) complain on Wikipedia Review about being manipulated by Mantanmoreland. Gerard never said anything in public that I know of, since to do so would be to remind everybody how clueless he was to the real situation in 2007, despite some fairly frantic attempts to inform him (which he put off as the ravings of the mentally ill).

And now we come to YOU, Mr. Wales, in 2011. Have you not been brought up to date yet about your email cc: list in 2007? "Being manipulated by Mantanmoreland" is your BEST excuse. But that would involve some kind of apology for being wrong, and for mistreating Bagley for trying to get the truth out. A truth you weren't listening to. And still have yet to admit.

Perhaps Bagley will then admit that you actually were not in cahoots with the global conspiracy of financial journalists to cover up wrongdoing in the financial markets. That you were just clueless. Like Gerard. And SlimVirgin.
Jimbo is a case study in human nature, specifically the tendency of people to adhere to one convenient version of reality despite repeated demonstrations that it's flawed. I won't even get into the specifics (they've been chronicled at length on this site) but the most obvious and relevant is this: today Jimbo says I and all my neighbors were blocked because I was promoting a "conspiracy theory" (that SlimVirgin had socked and JayJG had oversighted the evidence) while here he's the first one to say that it's true.

If Jimbo happens to be referring to the whole SV as MI-5 conspiracy theory, I'm repeatedly on the record as saying I never believed it to be true, so he's wrong there, as well.

Admittedly, I might be guilty of this myself, as I have no recollection of ever publicly accusing Jimbo of sockpuppeting, as he seems to claim (though I did briefly have my suspicions at one time). I'm inclined to believe that this is another of his inventions.
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Somey
post Mon 1st August 2011, 4:48am
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QUOTE(WordBomb @ Sun 31st July 2011, 11:35pm) *
If Jimbo happens to be referring to the whole SV as MI-5 conspiracy theory, I'm repeatedly on the record as saying I never believed it to be true, so he's wrong there, as well.

It seems clear enough that he wasn't referring to that, but of course that wasn't a "conspiracy theory" either, it was just repeating something Pierre Salinger had said about her. Salinger was probably wrong, but even the mere fact that he suspected (if not believed) it had some bearing on SV's behavior, and various people's attempts to explain it. (Or at least that was our position at the time.)

Jimbo has a real incentive to minimize Weiss's WP activities and refer to them now as being little more than "fiddling" or "mischief" - the last thing he needs are people pointing out how WP can be manipulated to do actual damage to companies, shareholders, and even entire economies, especially when so many countries' economies are already badly messed up. Even if it's just PR damage, it still reflects badly on him. The amount of damage Weiss actually did via Wikipedia is debatable, but there's no question that he was trying, very hard, to do damage. And he still is, most likely.
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SB_Johnny
post Mon 1st August 2011, 6:48am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 31st July 2011, 5:15pm) *

Wales reponds!

Then, a bit later, decrees that it's trolling nonsense and removes the section. dry.gif
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-DS-
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:25am
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Ah, just like old times.
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EricBarbour
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:41am
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 31st July 2011, 8:46pm) *
Wikia is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE organization from Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.

Why are you all having such a difficult time accepting that?

Everyone seems to realize that.

The only one who's a bit foggy on their separate nature.....is Mr. Wales.

QUOTE
Ah, just like old times.

tearinghairout.gif If only I could find it even a little bit funny.
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Silver seren
post Mon 1st August 2011, 10:21am
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*snorts*

I was really hoping that he would remove my comment as trolling, because then I would give him a more expansive piece of my mind. Oh well.

I liked my comment too. With the blueberry/chocolate part and all.
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thekohser
post Mon 1st August 2011, 12:38pm
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I'm thinking this is probably mainstream media worthy now.

"Wikipedia co-founder supports info waffling" is my tentative headline for now, but I'll gladly consider your own submissions.
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WordBomb
post Mon 1st August 2011, 4:08pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Mon 1st August 2011, 12:48am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 31st July 2011, 5:15pm) *

Wales reponds!

Then, a bit later, decrees that it's trolling nonsense and removes the section. dry.gif
Now I feel silly for thinking things might have gone differently.
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Milton Roe
post Mon 1st August 2011, 5:01pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sun 31st July 2011, 11:48pm) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 31st July 2011, 5:15pm) *

Wales reponds!

Then, a bit later, decrees that it's trolling nonsense and removes the section. dry.gif

Ah, yes, "trolling." Any discussion in which information is brought forward to suggest that Jimbo Wales or his buds ever made a really ignorant decision. We declare that we shall not ever speak or write of such things. dry.gif For they are nonsense by their very nature. huh.gif
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No one of consequence
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:03pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 1st August 2011, 12:38pm) *

I'm thinking this is probably mainstream media worthy now.

"Wikipedia co-founder supports info waffling" is my tentative headline for now, but I'll gladly consider your own submissions.

Well, the unfortunate truth is that any one person or group of people can manipulate the content of articles on almost any subject and get away with it, if they play the game sufficiently well.

There are many examples, including certain science topics, religious leaders and organizations, geopolitical disputes, biographies, and of course naked short selling. I'm just not sure that NSS is a sufficiently sexy topic to lede out a mainstream expose on the manipulation of Wikipedia.
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victim of censorship
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:15pm
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QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Mon 1st August 2011, 1:48am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sun 31st July 2011, 5:15pm) *

Wales reponds!

Then, a bit later, decrees that it's trolling nonsense and removes the section. dry.gif


Nothing changes in the Wiki-Kingdom of BULLSHIT.

If you don't like some one or something in the wiki-kingdom, you delete, ban and remove.

This post has been edited by victim of censorship: Mon 1st August 2011, 7:15pm
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Milton Roe
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:19pm
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QUOTE(Silver seren @ Mon 1st August 2011, 3:21am) *

*snorts*

I was really hoping that he would remove my comment as trolling, because then I would give him a more expansive piece of my mind. Oh well.

I liked my comment too. With the blueberry/chocolate part and all.

Wow, he didn't even leave an edit summary comment on that delete. Just *bang* gone from his TALK page. I think you hit nerve there. He didn't just ignore you. He couldn't let it stay up.
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Silver seren
post Mon 1st August 2011, 7:26pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 1st August 2011, 7:19pm) *

QUOTE(Silver seren @ Mon 1st August 2011, 3:21am) *

*snorts*

I was really hoping that he would remove my comment as trolling, because then I would give him a more expansive piece of my mind. Oh well.

I liked my comment too. With the blueberry/chocolate part and all.

Wow, he didn't even leave an edit summary comment on that delete. Just *bang* gone from his TALK page. I think you hit nerve there. He didn't just ignore you. He couldn't let it stay up.


Apparently so. I went and added permanent links to both discussions in a section on my talk page, so i'll be able to access them quickly if I need to.

You can find that here. And I made the wording to the links there purposefully obscure, so that people will be tempted to click in and read them.
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melloden
post Mon 1st August 2011, 10:29pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 1st August 2011, 3:46am) *

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 31st July 2011, 11:18pm) *

QUOTE(melloden @ Sun 31st July 2011, 10:02pm) *
How did they get these @wikia.com email addresses? There was on for "wpinvestigations@wikia.com" or something like that--did/does Wikia give out emails to every site, or was this arranged by Jimbo?

Wikia hosted both mailing lists ("wpinvestigations" and "cyberstalking"). We offered to host them ourselves, here on WR, but they didn't even reply to our kind offer! unhappy.gif

Ironically, I suspect their discussions would actually have been more secure here than on Wikia.


Wikia is a COMPLETELY SEPARATE organization from Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation.

Why are you all having such a difficult time accepting that?


Yes, yes, I think we all KNOW that. My question is, how did they GET these mailing lists to be hosted on Wikia? Does (or did) Wikia provide free mailing list hosting in addition to their free wikis?
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No one of consequence
post Mon 1st August 2011, 11:14pm
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QUOTE(melloden @ Mon 1st August 2011, 10:29pm) *

Yes, yes, I think we all KNOW that. My question is, how did they GET these mailing lists to be hosted on Wikia? Does (or did) Wikia provide free mailing list hosting in addition to their free wikis?

Because Wikipedia is not forward-looking, as Greg suggested elsewhere.

A private email list for editors who experience harassment is potentially a good thing, if it connects them with people who can monitor the harassment or offer advice on avoiding and defusing harassment. Probably SlimV suggested it to Jimmy, who waved his hand and made it so.

No one thought through the potential downside.

As usual.
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SB_Johnny
post Mon 1st August 2011, 11:21pm
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QUOTE(No one of consequence @ Mon 1st August 2011, 7:14pm) *

QUOTE(melloden @ Mon 1st August 2011, 10:29pm) *

Yes, yes, I think we all KNOW that. My question is, how did they GET these mailing lists to be hosted on Wikia? Does (or did) Wikia provide free mailing list hosting in addition to their free wikis?

Because Wikipedia is not forward-looking, as Greg suggested elsewhere.

A private email list for editors who experience harassment is potentially a good thing, if it connects them with people who can monitor the harassment or offer advice on avoiding and defusing harassment. Probably SlimV suggested it to Jimmy, who waved his hand and made it so.

No one thought through the potential downside.

As usual.

If they had created a list monitored and moderated by a qualified professional, there would have been far less downside. Of course, that would involve dedicating resources to support the volunteers, which just isn't something Jimmy or the WMF want to bother with.
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