Durova_and_Jehochman Arb-com case is opened!, ...the supersekret mailing list is part of the case..... Options

Pop that popcorn and take your seats!


Private Musings brings up the not-so-secret "secret mailing list" here....

Wikidiots are already trying to put out the flames...

Statement by uninvolved party Stephan Schulz (talk)

I would suggest to withdraw this request for now, or alternatively for the ArbCom to reject it without prejudice. There is a very active and productive RfC pertinent to this topic, and an action by ArbCom would be premature at this time. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statement by uninvolved party Alecmconroy

I concur-- insofar as this Arbcom applies to Durova, it's entirely unnecessary. She's an "Administrators open to recall" whose set her limit at 5 users. The count that have requested recall/desysop now stands at I believe 20+, so a new RFA is a certainty.

To file an Arbcom case now, demanding a forcible desysop, is to Assume Bad Faith, in essence "expecting her to reneg on her recall promise". There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this-- she'll agree to a new RFA, and in all likelyhood she'll pass it too. I'd suggest withdrawing the RFAr, or at least withdrawing her from it. --Alecmconroy (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Now, I don't believe that they're going to accept this for a minute....but it could get, um, interesting even if they don't.....

I think that Greg needs to add "FREE DUROVA!" items to his shop!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Statement by uninvolved party Alecmconroy
I concur-- insofar as this Arbcom applies to Durova, it's entirely unnecessary. She's an "Administrators open to recall" whose set her limit at 5 users. The count that have requested recall/desysop now stands at I believe 20+, so a new RFA is a certainty.

To file an Arbcom case now, demanding a forcible desysop, is to Assume Bad Faith, in essence "expecting her to reneg on her recall promise". There is no reason whatsoever to suspect this-- she'll agree to a new RFA, and in all likelyhood she'll pass it too. I'd suggest withdrawing the RFAr, or at least withdrawing her from it. --Alecmconroy (talk) 13:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The Durova RFA will be her last attempt at becoming an admin. again. Without consensus, she will be back to being a troll, like the rest of us.
There is no granting her a "grandfather clause." She is finished as a sleuth. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/huh.gif)

Userhu12 weighs in on the question :

Statement by uninvolved party Hu12

I suggest either a voluntary withdrawal, or that ArbCom consider closing this case without prejudice in light of remedies already in progress. This really should serve as a last step in resolution, and having this case concurrent with the active RFC may be unproductive and possibly unnecessary.--Hu12 (talk) 14:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Uninvolved???? REALLY???

I can't wait for Jzg's statement...

Oh, wait, there it is!....He must have been reading this :

Statement by JzG

The list of parties is rather too small. Durova made an error, for which she apologised, unblocked the editor, and said she would learn from it and not do it again. The reason the dispute has run this long is that some people seem unwilling to accept anything less than harsh punitive action. Guy (Help!) 14:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

...Well, why don't they add JzG as a party then?

Already two three accepts :

* Accept. James F. (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
* Accept. There are several issues here which need looking into. Paul August ☎ 14:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
* Accept Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 14:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So, maybe they will take this case?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Has anyone else noticed that Jehochman has been distancing himself from Durova since it happened [to the extent that he joined in the criticism of her]? He knows what's going to happen, and doesn't want to get dragged down with her. It's so amusing to watch her little meatpuppet act like he didn't completely support her when it happened (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

btw the title is a bit misleading; it has not been 'opened'

This post has been edited by KamrynMatika:

Yes, I have noticed that. He's really squirming in his evidence here, saying basically "I knew nothing".....Hopefully he doesn't speak German....

Quotable quotes from Jehochman :

Perhaps we could add "Wikipedia is not a game of Clue" to WP:NOT.

Why didn't you think of that before?

Flonight accepts too...That's four So, I guess the show will be beginning shortly?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Four accepts already? Wow, I didn't even think they'd accept it, let alone so rapidly.

Yeah, I think that they want this case to take place...although I'm not sure exactly why....

Our Patron Saint (Saint Tobias) makes a very eloquent statement :

Guy's line about people being "unwilling to accept anything less than harsh punitive action" is amusing given that he is one of the more outspoken members of a faction that is all for "harsh punitive action" when it's aimed at those they see as The Enemy. To them, the main goal of our community is no longer to build an encyclopedia; it's to fight an open-ended War on Trolls, which is Wikipedia's answer to the outside society's War on Terror. Like in that other war, civil liberties should be considered a quaint old-fashioned notion that should be sacrificed to security (as defined and perceived by the rulers). If a few innocent people get harmed in the process, that's an acceptable loss; we must keep vigorously rooting out the evil conspiracy undermining Wikipedia, no matter how much conspiring and undermining we need to do in order to achieve that. Let's destroy the village in order to save it! *Dan T.* (talk) 15:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Has anyone else noticed that Jehochman has been distancing himself from Durova since it happened [to the extent that he joined in the criticism of her]? He knows what's going to happen, and doesn't want to get dragged down with her. It's so amusing to watch her little meatpuppet act like he didn't completely support her when it happened (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

btw the title is a bit misleading; it has not been 'opened'

Meatpuppet Jehochman is not going to wiggle out of this. Dmcdevit cites Jehochman's block of DreamGuy based on month old diffs.

...we drive them away with spurious blocks based on stale diffs dredged up by an edit warring adversary, I see. This is a bit ludicrous.

El_C chimes in
I agree with Dmcdevit. Jehochman uncommunicable conduct here has been truly bizarre, likely abusive.

It's so funny to watch Jehochman try to escape the sinking ship. Also, where's Durova's statement? It seems to me that she's trying to pull a Jayjg here.

The Arbcom's processing this case at a record rate. Four people accepted it, and Kiril hasn't even voted yet. Maybe they realized that the mob with the torches is coming to get Durova and they'll only get lynched themselves if they try to defend her.

Man, this is really getting funny. A quotable quote from Doc's statement :

Duvora has been a fool - and is a patently incompetent "sleuth". But it doesn't need an arbcom case to establish that - it is an undisputed fact.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Kirill accepts....The case was filed about four hours ago. They really want this to go forward..

Now, the next question: is it to vindicate Durova or is it to get rid of Gianno?

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

He's a smart one. He gave the snowball the gentle push it needed (remember, he was the first guy to imply that Durova had broken protocol/wikietiquette/common sense).


edit:

She has spoken!

Interrupting a short wikibreak to make a statement here. It surprises me that this was initiated just a few hours after the RFC on my conduct got certified. I have always welcomed the Committee's scrutiny and continue to welcome it. DurovaCharge! 16:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

She's no stranger to the Ways of the Arbcom, she's used the get-out-of-jail-via-wikibreak card.

This post has been edited by cyofee:

Durova on Wikibreak. Holiday weekend, y'know.

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

oh, AS-IF. When did talking in the ANI thread disqualify anyone?

That's code for "the Arbcom loves Durova, and I don't want to be on her deathwish list if or when she isn't booted from here to eternity"

Newyorkbrad has recused himself, "(because of my participation in the original ANI thread concerning User:!!)."

oh, AS-IF. When did talking in the ANI thread disqualify anyone?

That's code for "the Arbcom loves Durova, and I don't want to be on her deathwish list if or when she isn't booted from here to eternity"

Well, she's still got fans, obviously Somebody posts this very nice message supporting her Arb-com Campaign with a link to the "official shop" and East718 blocks him for a week!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Clearly this case will not be "adjudicated" (if one can use such a word to refer to the kangaroo court of Arbcom) until after the elections. My prediction is that at that time, after Durova has been safely beaten (or withdrawn), there will be wrist-slaps all around. The cabal always ends up supporting its own, no matter how much hue and cry there is at the beginning.

Well, she's still got fans, obviously Somebody posts this very nice message supporting her Arb-com Campaign with a link to the "official shop" and East718 blocks him for a week!

Oh! Obviously this is a wikipediareview sock!

Its his MO, she's seen it for 100 years!

Here he is again, trying to make a buck!


*More seriously, I think the woman is going to regret having been such a busybody, certainly in the case of Greg, whom she never had any reason to attack, other than to make more drama, as usual..

also, East718 just joined WR.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

also, East718 just joined WR.

Maybe we can interest him in a "Durova for Arb-com" button?

Maybe we can interest him in a "Durova for Arb-com" button?

No, I think he's more neutral. Blocking that entry to her talk page wasn't unexpected.

Also, he didn't indef it, as most would have.

A mug or doggie t-shirt might be in order.

If he's not bought them already.

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

Well, using the Poetlister theory, (Poetlister, RachelBrown, Taxwoman and Runcorn were all banned on proof of being the same person, by some youthful editor who commented they were all "living in England, in a similar way".

So for Durova and RdCitroulles to be the same person, you could say they were evidently the same person as they were "writing in French, or about French topics, in a very similar way"


Therefore (in another quote about some other indictment) "You appear similar to (X person) therefore in the eyes of Wikipedia, you are (X person)"

Both qualify, anyday, for an immediate indef ban, if not a secret evidence Arbcom case.

GO DUROVA. Ban your fan! Take no prisoners!

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles makes a plea for Holiday Peace...

Does anybody else find it....odd ....that his signature is in the same style as Durova's, with the "Talley-ho" replacing "Charge!"??

Somehow....I have no proof of this, but his story of being blocked and being brought back to the fold by the Divine Miss D just....doesn't sound true....

It isn't true. I was involved in his initial blocking; it was for vehemently attacking everyone who wanted any article deleted, along with copypasting an argument against deletion to every single open AfD. People who do that usually never come back into the Wikipedia fold, and they never go back into serious meta-content disputes. I don't know why he is this supportive of Durova, but he's almost certainly not telling the truth.

This post has been edited by Amarkov:

Comment from Kelly Martin

Durova's "wikisleuthing" is inherently contradictory to Wikipedia's core principles (especially the assumption of good faith) and the necessity to have a collegial environment in order to foster collaboration, and must cease immediately and permanently. This business of seeking "Wikipedia Review spies" behind every edit is contrary to the open environment that Wikipedia is supposedly founded upon, is toxic, and will slowly poison the project (if it has not already). If someone from Wikipedia Review wants to edit the encyclopedia productively, let them. If Greg Kohser wants to edit Wikipedia productively, let him, too -- even if he does get paid for it. These petty vendettas are dumb, and Durova has made a career of pursing them far beyond the point where they benefit Wikipedia in any recognizable manner. The solution to bad speech is more speech; the solution to a bad edit is to improve it into a good edit, not to ban, expose, and humiliate the editor. Kelly Martin 20:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think she has it exactly right.

Kelly Martin is pretty awesome when she's not in a pissy mood and trying to ban people for enjoying the site.

It's unfortunate that she's hated by the "inner crowd" and the "anti-'inner crowd' crowd". If more people listened to her there'd be less hysteria. Arbcom would benefit from heeding her words, but I doubt that FloNight will allow that to happen.

FloNight is the worst.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Right at the start of this debacle I suggested that this whole thing might have been an elaborate plot to provoke Giano into a reaction hoping that this would put people off voting for him. Durova may have made her evidence so patently stupid that she knew if would provoke a strong reaction against her, amounting to something of a lynchmob. People would then recoil from this and cast Giano et al as the aggressors and Durova as the wronged victim who was just trying to do what is "right" by Wikipedia. I am sure Mr. Wales and others close to him don't want Giano on the Arbcom.

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

Right at the start of this debacle I suggested that this whole thing might have been an elaborate plot to provoke Giano into a reaction hoping that this would put people off voting for him. Durova may have made her evidence so patently stupid that she knew if would provoke a strong reaction against her, amounting to something of a lynchmob. People would then recoil from this and cast Giano et al as the aggressors and Durova as the wronged victim who was just trying to do what is "right" by Wikipedia. I am sure Mr. Wales and others close to him don't want Giano on the Arbcom.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

But if a majority wanted Giano on the Arbcom and then Wales went against that that would be yet more fodder pointing to corruption and a power clique controllling Wikipedia which would be bad news for Mr Wales and the clique (if it exists).

Another thought: we should watch this in the light of the upcoming Arbcom elections.

It's obvious that the reason Giano is going after Durova so much because she's his opponent in the election. Newyorkbrad is against her too, but far more subtly. Quite the Senator Palpatine.

I disagree. Newyorkbrad is one of the more decent admins, and there's more than one seat open. Giano was good friends with !!, I think.

Not to mention that she's outrageous, but you already know that.

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

But if a majority wanted Giano on the Arbcom and then Wales went against that that would be yet more fodder pointing to corruption and a power clique controllling Wikipedia which would be bad news for Mr Wales and the clique (if it exists).

Ah, Jimbo can invoke "soopersekrit" evidence...

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/ValeriePlame_JoeWilson.jpg)

Political Scandal?

I don't get it. Someone was blocked because of secret magical evidence that nobody knows about, the evidence turns out to be faulty... and nobody cares? I mean, that's happened before, certainly, but never quite so blatantly...

Well, the one person who made a big issue of it in the New York Times got his wife outted as a spy, and...

OH. OOPS. You mean Durova and !! I thought you were talking about the war in Iraq, and Yellowcake in Niger, and WMD. Because if our country can ignore that, ignoring Durova's false accusations is fairly minor (however similar).

Our dynamic duo is the grassroots version of a political scandal. But the politics are no different.

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/DurovaPlame_JonathanWilson.jpg)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Krimpet has finally made the correct statement :

The first is Jehochman and Durova's potential conflict of interest with their SEO activity - it's disturbing to have people with stakes in search engine optimization self-proclaiming themselves as "sleuths" trying to hunt for others with conflict of interest. Kohs was banned for having such a conflict of interest - probably justifiably so - but why do we seem to tolerate Jehochman and Durova doing the same thing? We need a clear consensus, somehow, on how these conflicts of interest should be handled, and apply it equally.

Add this into this the idea that user Hu12, who is at least a Durova meatpuppet has a Chicago Stock Exchange connected COI issue
(not to mention Jimbo's own Chicago Stock exchange connections) and you get a huge COI mess here. This stinks....

The vote is 6/0/0/0. I think that this is going to be a definite "go"...

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

She has spoken!

Interrupting a short wikibreak to make a statement here. It surprises me that this was initiated just a few hours after the RFC on my conduct got certified. I have always welcomed the Committee's scrutiny and continue to welcome it. DurovaCharge! 16:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

She's no stranger to the Ways of the Arbcom, she's used the get-out-of-jail-via-wikibreak card.

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her? Take away her adminship, fine. But to have to go through a public arb com free-for-all; that's probably the worst punishment possible.

Jimbo did a horrible thing when he created Wikipedia's arbitration committee. And apparently it was intentional, because he hasn't even tried to get rid of it.

Jimbo did a horrible thing when he created Wikipedia's arbitration committee. And apparently it was intentional, because he hasn't even tried to get rid of it.

Jimbo doesn't care about such things whatsoever. He knows, he's aware and he doesn't care.

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her? Take away her adminship, fine. But to have to go through a public arb com free-for-all; that's probably the worst punishment possible.

No, to go through what Poetlister and others have gone through on Durova's say-so is worse. At least Durova has done something to deserve it.

No, to go through what Poetlister and others have gone through on Durova's say-so is worse. A

Exactly. Durova has a gang of people who will defend her until the end. And if the end happens, she'll depart Wikipedia, though that is not at all evident.

Right now she's set. Go on a Wikibreak and it will all blow over. Not a feather ruffled.

At least Durova has done something to deserve it.

Exactly. That's not how she sees it though. She feels harassed, victimized and threatened. As if this came from nowhere. As she would say, "that's her MO" (modus operandi).

I expect that Jimbo Wales has his ears ringing from Durova's telling him how he should be protecting her, etc. etc. What she doesn't understand is that she is NOT indispensible. She's gambled on that with this recreant, reckless behavior, and she may well lose.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

It's now been formally opened. Yay.

I think they all need a musical break.

Concerto?

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her?

The game of Pin the Stigma on the Donkey has been playing on Wikipedia for so long, who among us cannot feel a pang of hurt for the Donkey du Jour?

Am I the only one here who feels sorry for her?

The game of Pin the Stigma on the Donkey has been playing on Wikipedia for so long, who among us cannot feel a pang of hurt for the Donkey du Jour?

That would be me.

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

The game of Pin the Stigma on the Donkey has been playing on Wikipedia for so long, who among us cannot feel a pang of hurt for the Donkey du Jour?

I'm confused. She's the one holding the pin, at least 30% of the time, per her own admission (30% arbcom case involvement). She's enjoyed sticking it in, and drawing blood, on numerous unwarranted cases.

Finally she got caught drawing blood. People are noticing. Now we're supposed to feel sorry for that?

!! was the donkey in this case. Closely followed by Giano.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Confusion is the First Step Toward Enlightenment

I'm confused. She's the one holding the pin, sticking it in, and she got caught drawing blood.

Compare Cain and Abel. Cain drew blood, and ended up with the dreaded Mark of Cain.

By the time the so-called "community" figures out that folks like Durova, Jayjg, JzG, SlimVirgin, and company have done vastly more harm than good to their blessed project, hundreds if not thousands of formerly and potentially valuable contributors will have been driven into the enemy camp. Wikipediots are such ediots that they imagine all these people just vanish into thin air. But people who have taken their own professional and scholarly integrities seriously for 4 or 5 times the age of your average Wikipediot Admin do not cease to exist just because these ediots have wished them away.

There will come a day of reckoning …

Jon Awbrey

This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:

Well, we've started the creative redefinition process. Apparently, agreeing to stand for reconfirmation of adminship under the Wikipedia definition has an invisible footnote, "*as long as I feel like standing for reconfirmation when the issue comes up".

You forget that Jimbo is only guided by the vote, and not beholden to it. That is my reason for not participating in this particular election, it doesn't matter how many or how well a candidate is supported it does not mean Jimbo will allow them elected.

But if a majority wanted Giano on the Arbcom and then Wales went against that that would be yet more fodder pointing to corruption and a power clique controllling Wikipedia which would be bad news for Mr Wales and the clique (if it exists).

Ah, Jimbo can invoke "soopersekrit" evidence...

Didn't last year's top vote getter (I seem to remember it being "Can't Sleep Clown will eat me") not get appointed by the God-King?

Ah, Jimbo can invoke "soopersekrit" evidence...

Didn't last year's top vote getter (I seem to remember it being "Can't Sleep Clown will eat me") not get appointed by the God-King?

True, but misleading. CSCWEM gets an insane number of votes for everything; thus, he managed the most support votes numerically while ranking behind all the candidates who were appointed in percentage.

Moreschi drops the bomb :

Private mailing list

This is very, very real. The existence of this is very solid. The morality is far more dubious. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

He then elaborates :

Ok, fine, let's get this out of the way. What we've got here is a secret mailing list used by a few admins, one or two checkusers, and a couple of arbitrators (not to mention a steward/Foundation person). They're all frenetically discussing difficult blocks, confidential information, and private evidence in a rabid atmosphere of sockpuppet paranoia. Not healthy. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 20:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have problems with Moreschi on a number of levels....but I've got to take my hat off to him this time. That took....erg.....balls....

Also, checkuser was run TWICE on !!'s account...but according to Durova, nobody bothered to tell her....

At last count, it was confirmed that Lar and JzG received the "soopersekrit mailing list"....

Lar discloses that he has done "soopersekrit" checkusers for Durova in the past....and that he screwed up bad here....

JzG sez that it's all Greg's fault anyway...

The Workshop page is already getting stacked against Gianno.
Read the proposed principals and the proposed findings of "fact". Sorry, big guy, but me thinks that you is already toast .....

big surprise, huh?

The "soopersekret mailing list" is getting swept under the rug ;

What people discuss in their living rooms is their own business. Kirill 20:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Prediction: Gianno gets banned. Durova gets elected to arb-com. Whatever is happening at the Chicago stock exchanges continues...

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Oh.....My.....God....If they don't ban Moreschi too because of this, I'll be very surprised :

Yes, I know what people do in their living rooms is there own business. That does not mean what they do there is healthy, nor does it mean we cannot pass moral judgment upon what they do....Also, it's possible that two of the arbitrators working on this case had the opportunity to see Durova's evidence some time before it was acted upon, as members of this mailing list. Did they, in fact, read it? If so, I believe they should recuse. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

He must've grown his balls back or something...

He continues on the talkpage...

(quoting this before it gets nuked...)

Secret mail list

Is this hosted on Wikipedia servers? • Lawrence Cohen 20:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are referring to the Arbitration Committee's private mailing list, then yes. See mail:Arbcom-l. Cbrown1023 talk 21:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe he's referring to Durova's secret mailing list, which explicitly excludes some, but not all, of the Arbiters. --Alecmconroy (talk) 21:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm referring to this secret mail list everyone keeps talking about. I was wondering if its hosted by Wikipedia, like the arbcom list is. • Lawrence Cohen 21:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I see what you mean now. Cbrown1023 talk 21:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Hosted by Wikia. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Er... checkuser and private info is released on a third party website like that? • Lawrence Cohen 21:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Shrug. Not released, it's a private mailing list. Hosted by this third party, yes. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you know this? Isarig (talk) 21:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Them that asks no questions isn't told a lie. Watch the wall, my darling, while the gentlemen go by! Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate a straight answer. Isarig (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I would dearly love to give you a straight answer. Not going to happen right now, though. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If this list exists, and checkuser and private information is released on it, are all the people on this list vetted by the Wikimedia Board to have access to that information? • Lawrence Cohen 21:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Possibly. The presence of a steward/Foundation person on that list would suggest so. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind posting this extra info on the evidence page? • Lawrence Cohen 21:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Arbitrator will read both the Evidence and its talk page, in their entirety. Cbrown1023 talk 21:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

JzG comes out of the closet as a mailing list recipient...

The mailing list to which Durova sent the email is not secret, merely private. It is hosted by Wikia. Its purpose is not "to combat sockpuppets of banned users", its purpose is to discuss how to more effectively combat harassment on Wikipedia. It is clear to those of us in this group that the current methods used to combat harassment are ineffective, due to a number of factors including, for example, the present practice of reflex reversion of any removal of a link to external harassment anywhere in Wikipedia.

The group includes a number of long-standing editors, mostly female , who have experienced harassment as a result of their on-wiki actions. It also includes some past and present members of the arbitration committee, some active administrators, CheckUsers and one or two others. I think most of us have OTRS access. It is private for the sole reason that much of what is discussed is essentially private - for example, some pseudonymous editors contribute under their real names, and have shared private information to help establish context. It's not some kind of super-secret cabal. The cabal is found, as it always was, on #wikipedia-en-cabal, but if I reveal this I will have to kill you.

I'm not quite sure how I ended up on that list, and I'll acknowledge that there is a bit of noise and a fair bit of hurt being shared there, but it is definitely not a covert replacement of "votes for banning".

It does, of course, involve a certain amount of discussion of the MO of some banned users who are serial ban evaders and have engaged in, supported or enabled harassment.

The arbitrators already know about the list and its makeup. It has been discussed, I believe, on the arbcom-l list well before this incident. Guy (Help!) 21:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Harassment, mostly female, checkuser and connected with the inner cabal....Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

I would hazard a guess that the "Steward/Foundation person" is Jimbo, considering that it's also hosted at Wikia and Jimbo has been quick to defend people like Durova in recent days.

I would hazard a guess that the "Steward/Foundation person" is Jimbo, considering that it's also hosted at Wikia and Jimbo has been quick to defend people like Durova in recent days.

Well, there's obviously a connection there, isn't there?....and we haven't even gotten to the whole Chicago Stock exchange angle.....

This stinks.

Newsflash : There are TWO mailing lists :

Two mailing lists

BTW, we've got two private mailing lists here - one relating specifically to investigations, and one relating to cyberstalking, both hosted by Wikia (AFAIK). Both are probably largely filled with the same people. To which one did Durova's email go? Investigations, surely? Then again, perhaps not. Enlighten? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:52, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If I weren't so cynical, I might be tempted to think that Moreschi was playing tag with me over here....

Hey, you wouldn't suppose that THIS has anything to do with either these mailing lists, would you??

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

!! gives a very balanced, dignified, non-agressive..and extremely damning account of Durova's actions....

Um.....and what exactly might this be? A billet-doux from the Divine Miss D about WR itself.....

:::Okay, I made a mistake and pledged specific changes to close the gaps you continue to articulate. What non-public information do I use? E-mail correspondence, and sysop tools to view deleted pages - things like that. And my super-secret sockpuppet mole that infiltrated Wikipedia Review's inner circle and has been forwarding their private mailing list to ArbCom. We're picking off the members one by one. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

Would the real Durova please stand up???

This idea that Durova has been playing Mata Hari à la Slim Virgin has been added on the Workshop page...But Newyorkbrad sez that because the statement is followed by a smiley, that it's all a big joke anyway....Who knows at this point?

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Wikia does appear to host several peripheral Wikipedia-related lists outside the jurisdiction of the Wikimedia Foundation on lists.wikia.com. Among them is WpCyberstalking, "a private unarchived mailing for the discussion of Wikipedia and cyberstalking," administrated by User:SlimVirgin - krimpet

Lol, here we go... hahaha, I guessed she would be on it when I posted earlier but didn't for fear of being accused of turning this thread into another SV thread. The way SV turns up behind everything is almost creepy. One of the private mailing lists. Make of it what you will.

I bet Durova would love to have a sockpuppet here, that's just her kind of thing: making herself out to be some kind of top secret sleuthing detective with undercover misssions and the like. Hilarious.

Lol, and I was right, Jimbo is on there according to JzG. No surprise that he'd rush to cover it up then, no? LOL. Too funny. There really is a cabal! And I never believed it.

This post has been edited by KamrynMatika:

Moreschi "outs" Cary Bass...

And that's another thing that's been bugging me. He appears to have been quite closely involved in this whole private-investigations scene, yet he later went on to block Giano on privacy grounds (which seems strange) to get Durova's email off enwiki. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 22:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Sheez, it's as if he's giving us all the answers!

Keep it up, Big guy!

(I might actually have to revise my opinion of Moreschi after this...)

(Now could somebody please explain to me why every thread here ends up being about Slim Virgin eventually???)

Lol, and I was right, Jimbo is on there according to JzG. No surprise that he'd rush to cover it up then, no? LOL. Too funny. There really is a cabal! And I never believed it.

It's as if they all want to finally spill the beans, once and for all, and be done with it. It's as if they're giving us all the answers....

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

JzG says:

The group includes a number of long-standing editors, mostly female, who have experienced harassment as a result of their on-wiki actions. It also includes some past and present members of the arbitration committee, some active administrators, CheckUsers and one or two others. I think most of us have OTRS access. It is private for the sole reason that much of what is discussed is essentially private - for example, some pseudonymous editors contribute under their real names, and have shared private information to help establish context.

Hmmm. I was wondering why SlimVirgin wanted this info:

Does anyone know where I can find a complete list of OTRS volunteers? All the lists I've found so far (e.g. on meta) are incomplete. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 04:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like she needs the list for recruitment purposes to the SuperSekret SuperCabal. Jayjg would be the former ArbCom member. ElinorD might be another female. SlimVirgin is probably playing the feminist card to put pressure on any cabalists who question her. They added new female checkusers recently.

JzG says the purpose of the list "is to discuss how to more effectively manage the issue of harassment on Wikipedia." This has poodle paw prints all over it. The harassment meme was initiated by SlimVirgin in September on the Foundation mailing list — she said she wanted to do a "study" of the situation.

Jayjg came up with a similar phrase a few days ago on the WikiEN-l list: "...distracting attention from the real issues regarding offsite harassment..." It doesn't take much guessing to figure out who's on the list. They do things in a similar way.

I predict that ArbCom doesn't have sufficient power to penetrate this SuperSekret SuperCabal. It's possible that even Jimbo doesn't have the power. Durova is barely on the fringes, and probably just thinks she's an insider. The same is probably true of JzG. Slim is smart enough to use them as a foil, but not let them get too close once they become lightning rods.

There's a Wikipedia Review mailing list?

I never get told anything. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif)

There is no community over here. Does she not get that? Some people swap mails, but not more.

And if there were, she's be a moron for yapping about it online.

But there you have it.

Hey, maybe Poetlister is the Durova sock! That would explain a lot.

Kelly Martin wonders whether it was Durova or Cory Bass who is behind some of the drama here:

Either (a) Durova used a legal threat levied at the Foundation to suppress an informed discussion of her conduct or ((IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif) Cary Bass overstepped his authority by acting as if a legal threat had been made when none had. Either way, something smells bad here. If the former, it speaks very badly of Durova: she needs to own up to her own mistaken actions, take full responsibility for them, make a complete and full elocution, and offer such amends as can be offered. If the latter, Cary should be, at the very least, reprimanded by the Foundation for putting them at legal risk. Regardless, you would think that by now Wikipedia would have learned that trying to sweep the subject of dispute under a rug serves no purpose. Oversighting away embarrassing evidence -- of any sort -- just fans the flames more. I don't know whether Durova or Cary is more to blame in this situation, but it's a bad situation nonetheless. [[User talk:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 16:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

There's a Wikipedia Review mailing list?

I never get told anything. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif)

There is no community over here. Does she not get that? Some people swap mails, but not more.

And if there were, she's be a moron for yapping about it online.

But there you have it.

Hey, maybe Poetlister is the Durova sock! That would explain a lot.

If there's no well-organized outside enemy coming to destroy Wikipedia, how could they organize those pesky masses who don't care to be lackeys?

Oh sure, I know what you mean. She's pulling a Bushie, and claiming we are all "under attack" and using it to unify ranks and assault civil liberties (such as they exist on the internet, or WP).

Like the real Bushie, these maneuvers usually have counterproductive ends. Most people here don't want to harass Wikipedia. The ones who want to edit, and got kicked off, still edit. The ones who want to vandalize for revenge.. I think that is a limited number, except for a few cases. In any event, this aggressive approach rarely has a good result, in any venue.

Another piece in the puzzle, off of this section in the RfC talkpage :

For what it is worth, User:Lar says he was asked by User:Durova to have the e-mail you are talking about oversighted on the bases of privacy and copyright, which are both considerations under our oversight rules, I believe; so he passed on the request. However, neither reason holds up to scrutiny for reasons I don't care to go into; but one can start with fair use and the WikiMedia Mission statement. One more bad judgement by Durova; and one more bad judgement by management (making people go to sites that are called untrustworthy to get information on an important current issue facing Wikipedia makes Wikipedia/Wikimedia management look trustworthy how?) WAS 4.250 (talk) 13:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Later :

When I saw the DMCA comment, I assumed that Durova had sent the foundation something that was interpreted as a DMCA take-down letter; but that would require Durova to threaten the Foundation with a lawsuit. I suspect it is a matter of wanting to eat a cake and still have it afterwords. If she did send such a thing, she should at the least not be an admin; and if she did not and merely asked that Wikipedia abide by its oversight rules, then the DMCA comment is more cover-up. Or at least incompetence. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

....things that make you go "hmm....." I thought that people who drank the koolaid agreed not to attack the WMF???


This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

My biggest concern right now? That this list was hosted by Wikia. Completely separate organizations, eh, Jimbo?

I cannot wait for the IRS to hear about this.

Greg

My biggest concern right now? That this list was hosted by Wikia. Completely separate organizations, eh, Jimbo?

I cannot wait for the IRS to hear about this.

Greg

I hadn't even thought of that!

Mr. Kohs, you are a genius!

My biggest concern right now? That this list was hosted by Wikia. Completely separate organizations, eh, Jimbo?

I cannot wait for the IRS to hear about this.

Greg

I hadn't even thought of that!

Mr. Kohs, you are a genius!

I dunno. iSnce anyone can host a discussion on Wikia, then so what if they talk on there. Even if Wikia cost anything it could be called a charitable contribution, which would make it ok. I think that his continued management/editorial power is a bigger issue, but even that won't cut much ice with anyone. He's the former founder and they are in transition, and he'll get cut a break.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

It's hard to believe that one or more cabal lists, having to do with Wikipedia administration only, and nothing to do with Wikia, are hosted on Wikia. FloFlo would have to admonish Jimbo over this, or she might even feel the need to ask him to resign from the Foundation Board of Trustees. (Jimbo was appointed to another term on the Board just recently, and I assume that appointed Trustees are easier to dump than elected Trustees.)

After all, why host them on Wikia, except to keep them from the prying eyes of Foundation employees who are developers and might "inconveniently" notice these lists, and then ask FloFlo if these lists reflect the proper use of the Foundation's servers? By keeping the lists away from FloFlo, the Foundation is protected and the SuperCabal is protected, but only if the Foundation doesn't know about the lists to begin with. Once they know about it, they should do something.

This calls for a Foundation investigation — not an investigation by Jimbo's flunkies on the ArbCom.

Where is it written that any organization has to communicate on its own servers. A bunch of IBM guys might communicate via googlechat and it wouldnt mean anything.

Wikia hosts any group in the world, girl scout troops, or whatever.

I dont get what the big deal is, other than the obvious grunts over incestuousness between Wikia and Wikipedia, which could be argued away such that Wikia gives free stuff to everyone now. The real issue is what Wikipedia gives to Wikia, which is free advertising by nofollow. But you know that already.

(originally posted in the wrong place)

Looks like Durova will stand for reconfirmation at RfA after the ArbCom case is over (unless they remove her tools).

I would hazard a guess that the "Steward/Foundation person" is Jimbo, considering that it's also hosted at Wikia and Jimbo has been quick to defend people like Durova in recent days.

Nope. Cary Bass is a Steward. Jimbo wouldn't be referenced in that regard. Durova would pester Jimbo in any case. Cary too, but nevertheless. You just *know* they get sick of her. I feel sorry for them. Can't you just hear her ranting " but I'm being harassed, I'm being harassed".

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Jimbo has posted on !!'s talk page, reinforcing the meme that it was a simple mistaken 75-minute block, as if this is what everyone is mad about. Not a word about the poisonous e-mail that is what everyone is really upset with.

I would hazard a guess that the "Steward/Foundation person" is Jimbo, considering that it's also hosted at Wikia and Jimbo has been quick to defend people like Durova in recent days.

Nope. Cary Bass is a Steward. Jimbo wouldn't be referenced in that regard. Durova would pester Jimbo in any case. Cary too, but nevertheless.

Maybe the Steward/Foundation person is MindSpillage.

Has it occurred to anyone that it is odd how many "guests" Wikipedia Review has this week?

It has hovered around 60 for the past few days.

Usually it is 5-6 maximum.

They are really over here.

Talk about a tor node honey pot, lol.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Where is it written that any organization has to communicate on its own servers. A bunch of IBM guys might communicate via googlechat and it wouldnt mean anything.

Wikia hosts any group in the world, girl scout troops, or whatever.

I dont get what the big deal is, other than the obvious grunts over incestuousness between Wikia and Wikipedia, which could be argued away such that Wikia gives free stuff to everyone now. The real issue is what Wikipedia gives to Wikia, which is free advertising by nofollow. But you know that already.

Please, DL... You know I love ya. But, you have to look at this from the perspective (if I am correct), that Jimbo himself is on the list. He is using Wikia servers to MANAGE the organizational decision-making process of the Wikimedia Foundation -- largely (apparently) without the rest of the WMF Board's knowledge or participation. He is the head of Wikia. Case closed.

The reason Wikia is supposedly not in trouble so far is that they claim there is not a "management overlap" between the two organizations. Now, we see there absolutely is. This is a slam dunk, and I'll be filing the IRS whistle-blower form in the next few days. I would encourage others to do so, also. Remember, the reporter is entitled to 10% of the fine, as a reward for bringing the perp to justice.

Greg

HI Greg,

Call me doubting Thomas Lackey. Sorry. If you are strongly convinced that it will stick, then report it. I am skeptical, and most of this stuff would be hard to make stick. I hope you are right. I should probably just shut up, so consider me shut up now. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

More importantly.

Again, what's with the 60 guests at all times? Dont' these people have lives to lead?

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

HI Greg,

Call me doubting Thomas Lackey. Sorry. If you are strongly convinced that it will stick, then report it. I am skeptical, and most of this stuff would be hard to make stick. I hope you are right. I should probably just shut up, so consider me shut up now. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smiling.gif)

More importantly.

Again, what's with the 60 guests at all times? Dont' these people have lives to lead?

People are curious, I certainly hope they stick around and read up on all the travesties that have occurred on Wikipedia in the past.

And 60 isn't particularly high, I still remember when we peaked at 360, I forget what spurred that but it would be hard to duplicate.

What was going on in September that got them all over here? I was offline then.

Introducing : The "Bigfoot" principle!

Bigfoot

16) If someone believes they have evidence that Bigfoot exists, it should be reviewed by people other than a self-selected group of Bigfoot believers.

This is almost as good as the "Clown" principal in BADSITES!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Introducing : The "Bigfoot" principal!

Bigfoot

16) If someone believes they have evidence that Bigfoot exists, it should be reviewed by people other than a self-selected group of Bigfoot believers.

This is almost as good as the "Clown" principal in BADSITES!

At least it has a point though.

What was going on in September that got them all over here? I was offline then.

First letter is S...

My biggest concern right now? That this list was hosted by Wikia. Completely separate organizations, eh, Jimbo?

I cannot wait for the IRS to hear about this.

Greg

Eh, maybe not. If I go to Yahoo Groups to make a mailing list for my church, to distribute announcements and such (because I don't know how to set up such software on my own PC) that doesn't make Yahoo Groups affiliated with my church.

Wikia hosts any group in the world, girl scout troops, or whatever.

Again, DL, this is not correct. Wikia is selective in the groups or communities that it will choose to host on its servers.

According to Wikia itself, they accept new "wikia" if they meet the following requirements:

1. Uniqueness (doesn't duplicate the efforts of one of the other 4,000+ wikias).

2. Attractiveness ("It's no fun to edit alone so we want to make sure your topic is broad enough that it will attract a community"). ((That is, they want their Google AdSense ads read by lots of visitors.))

3. Open to free license ("Are you happy for everyone to edit this wiki, and for it to be under a free content license? Anyone can join in on a Wikia wiki, that way anyone can improve the content. And Wikia wikis use the same free license as Wikipedia, so the content will always stay free!").

Anybody else fascinated by the apparent fact that a secret discussion list is maintained on Wikia, but that it is closed to open editing and is clearly not released under the "same free license as Wikipedia"?

I hope the IRS enjoys my letter this week.

Eh, maybe not. If I go to Yahoo Groups to make a mailing list for my church, to distribute announcements and such (because I don't know how to set up such software on my own PC) that doesn't make Yahoo Groups affiliated with my church.

What if you sit on the Board of Directors of both Yahoo! and of your church, but you've (falsely) reported to the IRS on Form 990 that there is no management overlap between Yahoo! and your church? And then what if you used that Yahoo! Groups mailing list to make decisions about who can and cannot remain a member of your church, presumably using criteria that lie well outside of your church's mission statement and bylaws?

I appreciate all of your critiques of my basic concern, but I hope you see that they fall apart when we consider the Jimbo Factor. Your examples of Girl Scout troops and churches are pleasant enough, but we have to remember -- Jimbo Wales (and not to mention, Angela Beesley and Michael Davis) have all served on both the Board of Wikia and the Board of Wikimedia Foundation.

In fact, I thank you for bringing up these inapt analogies. Their being so easy to dismiss helps to underscore for the uninitiated the magnitude of our problem with Wikia influencing the operations of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation. This relationship taints every single dollar that has ever been donated to the WMF, under the false pretense that Wikipedia is not secretly influenced (dare I say "controlled"?) by a for-profit enterprise.

Greg

This post has been edited by thekohser:

3. Open to free license ("Are you happy for everyone to edit this wiki, and for it to be under a free content license? Anyone can join in on a Wikia wiki, that way anyone can improve the content. And Wikia wikis use the same free license as Wikipedia, so the content will always stay free!").

Anybody else fascinated by the apparent fact that a secret discussion list is maintained on Wikia, but that it is closed to open editing and is clearly not released under the "same free license as Wikipedia"?

That's a very good point. If the list is hosted by Wikia, then it should have been released under a free license under their own TOS. So Durova could not claim copyright on her sekrit evidence. Of course, obviously Jimbo was too slow to figure this out...

Now, may I request a favor from the WR team? Could you provide me the most relevant diffs that have so far admitted to the existence of this private list of admins and bureaucrats -- specifically, that Jimbo is on the list, and that it is in fact hosted by Wikia?

I am hoping that the ArbCom will actually document this "officially", but if not... do we have solid proof that the claims about the list are true?

Greg

(originally posted in the wrong place)

Looks like Durova will stand for reconfirmation at RfA after the ArbCom case is over (unless they remove her tools).

How could anyone, after reading this case and all of the evidence, ever allow her to be an administrator at Wikipedia? Her case is as sad as it is a representation of a truly out of touch and quite possibly disturbed person. I believe she needs help that the Arbcom. panel cannot give.

If any of this is presented to intelligent people, they will send her on her way; quite possibly to a very good therapist and a reputable treatment center. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by WhispersOfWisdom:

Now, may I request a favor from the WR team? Could you provide me the most relevant diffs that have so far admitted to the existence of this private list of admins and bureaucrats -- specifically, that Jimbo is on the list, and that it is in fact hosted by Wikia?

I am hoping that the ArbCom will actually document this "o
fficially", but if not... do we have solid proof that the claims about the list are true?

Greg

Kathryn came up with this yesterday which confirm the existence of this list, and that it is hosted by Wikia. However, since last night, the owner address has been changed from "slim.virgin@gmail.com" to "cbs.listadmin at gmail.com"...Can you say "damage control?"

Note the "GNU free content" license logo at the bottom of the page, however...I can't find this WPlist on the master list of all Wikia lists here. Am I missing something? Was this there last night?

Lots of housecleaning going on, it seems....

However, Greg has webcited these in the SlimVirgin section. Copying this over here:

http://www.webcitation.org/5TdnT9Lhy

http://www.webcitation.org/5Tdnzo7d3

(By the way, Greg. Thank you for your PM, but I couldn't answer because your mailbox seems to be full.)

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Mebbe Jimbo can be persuaded to harness Wikia technology to support Online Group Rehabilitation and Remedial Education Services.

(Jonny, I need some help here. The acronym doesn't quite come out to OGRES or something equally cute barfometric.)

(By the way, Greg. Thank you for your PM, but I couldn't answer because your mailbox seems to be full.)

Sorry about that -- I apparently have far too many admirers offering me words of encouragement!

And don't forget Durova's secret helper, Lar, who has been providing her with Checkuser data and is standing as a Steward. Up to now, the Stewards have been a thoroughly decent bunch, I think.

Wikia hosts any group in the world, girl scout troops, or whatever.

Again, DL, this is not correct. Wikia is selective in the groups or communities that it will choose to host on its servers.

What do you mean "again"?

Ouch. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif)

You may know things I don't. I simply didn't see the nuance, but you made a valid point.

If you are right, kudos.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Wikia hosts any group in the world, girl scout troops, or whatever.

Again, DL, this is not correct. Wikia is selective in the groups or communities that it will choose to host on its servers.

What do you mean "again"?

...

Okay, the "again" was gratuitous. I like to inflate my ego and make others feel bad when I'm debating them on a point. It's unbecoming.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/happy.gif)

Durova has resigned adminship and withdrawn herself from the elections.

Wow. This is truly, truly sad.(I'm sure no one believes me here, but I'm sincere).

Durova loves Wikipedia and loved being an admin, and I love seeing people doing what they love.

I blame not her, but the environment, and a Foundation (cough, Jimbo, cough) which provides no support or guidelines (or appropriate feedback and corrective action) for adminstrators. I (or anyone else) might go nuts without limits. Power does that to anyone.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I am greatly suspicious that this is a time-based withdrawal, planned so she can come back, and that perhaps some kind of deal was cut to let the heat come off of her.

She's been desysoped before. And she could easily come back again.

In which case, she'd do just the same things.

(sigh)

This is lose-lose. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif)

I hope not. Maybe this will be a wakeup call for her.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Durova has resigned adminship and withdrawn herself from the elections.

Linky

You just know they're going to blame us for the whole thing...

A variety of issues - both valid and questionable - remain unaddressed. I have not had any adequate venue to respond... (snip) ...Now this moves toward a reconfirmation vote of my administratorship on a basis that denies uninvolved Wikipedians the chance to weigh all sides. I was never compelled to make myself open to recall: I thought it was fair. I also thought it was right to step forward and assume responsibility for my actions. That earned slim goodwill. Certainly there are upstanding Wikipedians who criticize me fairly, yet there has also been some very unequal applications of principles here.

I dunno, should we invite her to register an account here? This would certainly be an "adequate venue to respond," albeit a rather hostile one. Of course, if she's in the right, what does she have to worry about?

Still, I'm not sure what principles she's referring to that have been applied unequally - are they the ones that would otherwise allow her adequate time to present her case? That might make sense I suppose, given that much of this happened over the Thanksgiving holiday, and a lot of WP admins are non-US people.

And that sentence about goodwill being earned seems to have a double-meaning hidden in there somewheres...

I dunno, should we invite her to register an account here? This would certainly be an "adequate venue to respond," albeit a rather hostile one. Of course, if she's in the right, what does she have to worry about?

She's rather eat fried worms, fresh from your garden. Be gentle here Somey. I'm sure she's devastated.

And that sentence about goodwill being earned seems to have a double-meaning hidden in there somewheres...

She thinks that the fact that she put herself up for Review, means that she should have been cut more slack, is all. Which is not correct. If she gave any sign of remorse, rather than the recalcitrance she showed, or interest in altering her behavior, she would have had tons more support. It was a lack of humility that brought her down, not hubris, as such. Really, really sad.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Oh gosh.

A variety of issues - both valid and questionable - remain unaddressed. I have not had any adequate venue to respond...

Yes she has. I'm sorry she can't see it.

People were begging her to give clear, honest answers, and she arrogantly stonewalled them. This is not the way to handle a crisis. Neither is TMI, but there is a balance that she never went towards.

I was never compelled to make myself open to recall: I thought it was fair. I also thought it was right to step forward and assume responsibility for my actions. That earned slim goodwill.

Like the admission of incorrect banning, it wasn't the fact, it was the how it was done that caused the problems.

Certainly there are upstanding Wikipedians who criticize me fairly, yet there has also been some very unequal applications of principles here.

Oh my gosh. This makes me grateful for introspective capacity. She feels victimized, and that robs her of her ability to change.

That's the saddest thing of all this.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Durova can still redeem herself by helping to end the practices that she became so tragically swept up in.

Okay, the "again" was gratuitous. I like to inflate my ego and make others feel bad when I'm debating them on a point. It's unbecoming.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/happy.gif)

Actually, this is a strong professional skill that I could learn from. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif)

What if you sit on the Board of Directors of both Yahoo! and of your church, but you've (falsely) reported to the IRS on Form 990 that there is no management overlap between Yahoo! and your church? And then what if you used that Yahoo! Groups mailing list to make decisions about who can and cannot remain a member of your church, presumably using criteria that lie well outside of your church's mission statement and bylaws?

Remind me again (again !)to never get on your badside.

In fact, I thank you for bringing up these inapt analogies.

(IMG:http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/var/aaasdev/storage/images/media/images/nextwave/icons_6/snarlingdog_160x200_jpg/197256-1-eng-US/snarlingdog_160x200_jpg.jpg)
Down boy (again, lol)

Their being so easy to dismiss helps to underscore for the uninitiated the magnitude of our problem with Wikia influencing the operations of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation. This relationship taints every single dollar that has ever been donated to the WMF, under the false pretense that Wikipedia is not secretly influenced (dare I say "controlled"?) by a for-profit enterprise.

Greg, your argumentation skills are great, but you need to leave the opponent with a shred of dignity. You know, so they don't have to crawl out to the car to drive home... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

On my sadness scale, this ranks right about the same as running Mario into a mushroom and watching him shrink and lose his fireball power.

On my sadness scale, this ranks right about the same as running Mario into a mushroom and watching him shrink and lose his fireball power.

I disagree completely. It is terribly, terribly sad. She's extremely talented, and was into something she loved dearly.

I am also aware, while writing this, that she feels no such remore for those she's wounded herself. Also very sad, but sobering.

I disagree completely. It is terribly, terribly sad. She's extremely talented, and was into something she loved dearly.

I am also aware, while writing this, that she feels no such remore for those she's wounded herself. Also very sad, but sobering.

Your second statement is why the first holds little weight. Why feel bad for people who can't be arsed to stand up for those in a similar situation?

Your second statement is why the first holds little weight. Why feel bad for people who can't be arsed to stand up for those in a similar situation?

OH, that doesn't make me sad. That made me angry (obviously). But the lack of insight which is a tragic flaw of a talented person, who can't see things for what they are? Very, very sad. Sad when it brings downfall all too unnecessary. She's meant for better things than failure, as well as better things than fielding random gratutious attacks on those less powerful.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Freud Vindicated Once Again …

Gee, so the Brothers and Sisters of the Primal Horde really do feel Primal Guilt at the deposition‡ of the Primal Parent.

It's enough to make me wanna Primal Scream —

But maybe I'll just go toss my Primal Cookies instead …

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

‡ There's a double meaning in that.

"there has also been some very unequal applications of principles here."
Indeed - she had every opportunity to defend herself, and a public hearing before ArbCom. Compare some other people who have been permanently blocked. Some of those were Durova's fault.

Durova can still redeem herself by helping to end the practices that she became so tragically swept up in.

Like apologise to everyone she's blocked or had blocked, and request their unblock.

Still, I'm not sure what principles she's referring to that have been applied unequally - are they the ones that would otherwise allow her adequate time to present her case? That might make sense I suppose, given that much of this happened over the Thanksgiving holiday, and a lot of WP admins are non-US people.

She gave me all of 24 hours to file an Arbitration case regarding "misleading information to journalists" before quickly re-banning me. Durova had oodles of time, IMHO.

At this point, I hope that she turns the corner completely and repudiates the irresponsible environment that is Wikipedia. If she can see that project through this one filter, she just might have a chance (and she could make a fantastic ally):

One's participation in Wikipedia is welcome, so long as your volunteer labor quietly supports the aggrandizement of Jimmy Wales. All other purposes will eventually be considered "selfish", "trollish", or "destructive", and ultimately you will be cast out.

Lise, let a few weeks go by. Consider whether the "Wikipedia Community" (right up to the Jimbo-mandated ArbCom) protected you and your work, or rejected you and your work. When you've decided what really happened there, I'd invite you to join us here. Whatever you do, please don't keep contributing to that project, until it has proven that it even recognizes how poisoned it is. Sue Gardner just sent me an e-mail saying she didn't see anything inappropriate about Wikia hosting the "secret sleuths" mailing list. We have a long, long way to go.

Greg

This post has been edited by thekohser:

She's obviously not talented, look at all the mistakes she makes. She's just full of herself. There is a difference, even if they inspire the same sympathy.

Your second statement is why the first holds little weight. Why feel bad for people who can't be arsed to stand up for those in a similar situation?

OH, that doesn't make me sad. That made me angry (obviously). But the lack of insight which is a tragic flaw of a talented person, who can't see things for what they are? Very, very sad. Sad when it brings downfall all too unnecessary. She's meant for better things than failure, as well as better things than fielding random gratutious attacks on those less powerful.

If she's a truly powerful person, she'll grow from this (believe me, I've been down that road myself)...

If she's Essjay, she'll disappear.

I think that she'll spring back....and hopefully she's learned something from all of this.

I sincerely wish her the best (as long as she stops the Nancy Drew routine...)

Sue Gardner just sent me an e-mail saying she didn't see anything inappropriate about Wikia hosting the "secret sleuths" mailing list. We have a long, long way to go.

Greg

Of course she did. It's always deny, deny, deny!! when you're backed up against the wall. I would do the same, but I think that they've got a very big problem to fix and too many dangling threads to be able to sweep it under the rug.

I do hope that Lise sees this though, Greg. You're a class act, in spite of what JzG says about you....

Your second statement is why the first holds little weight. Why feel bad for people who can't be arsed to stand up for those in a similar situation?

OH, that doesn't make me sad. That made me angry (obviously). But the lack of insight which is a tragic flaw of a talented person, who can't see things for what they are? Very, very sad. Sad when it brings downfall all too unnecessary. She's meant for better things than failure, as well as better things than fielding random gratutious attacks on those less powerful.

If she's a truly powerful person, she'll grow from this (believe me, I've been down that road myself)...

If she's Essjay, she'll disappear.

I think that she'll spring back....and hopefully she's learned something from all of this.

I sincerely wish her the best (as long as she stops the Nancy Drew routine...)

She could get a makeover and return as User:NancyDrewBarrymore.

I don't mean to be a downer but I seriously doubt she'll "grow and move on" from this. She has fallen quite hard. I'm overloaded with self-esteem and I'd be humiliated beyond repair if my own private game of Clue culminated in such a disaster.

Durova can still redeem herself by helping to end the practices that she became so tragically swept up in.

Like apologise to everyone she's blocked or had blocked, and request their unblock.

It's gonna take something more dramatic than that. She's gonna have to expose the corrosive behind-the-scenes machinations that ultimately tripped over its own inherent shortcomings -- the lack of a reliable error-correction protocol.

So she is no longer a sysop, and she will not be sluething again...

What can she do? Edit articles? Vandal patrol? New page patrol? Help desk? She was actually a fairly good admin when dealing with day to day stuff, if a little humourless and self regarding. She may hang around the noticeboards, but that may be a bumpy ride considering the players in the recent drama, and give freely of her knowledge and experience. I mean it, she knows quite a bit.

However, I suspect that she will see how the ArbCom turns out - I wonder if she hopes that the self desysopping will lessen the possible calls for sanction - to indicate the likelihood of succesfully running for Admin again. I believe that her wikibreak (ArbCom excepted) will extend up to that point, when she decides if she will run. If she doesn't, then I think she will withdraw from WP.

If she does eventually go, it would be supremely ironic if she gets a "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" messages from one of her ex supporters (although I doubt it would be her mailing list buddies - and I hope it won't be any of the original doubters) to give her the taste of what it must be like to have had all your sincere efforts (and I truly believe they were sincere - I don't agree with the political ones, but they were intended to improve the encyclopedia) in contributing to WP to be denigrated since the powers that be have found you surplus to requirements.

Durova can still redeem herself by helping to end the practices that she became so tragically swept up in.

Like apologise to everyone she's blocked or had blocked, and request their unblock.

Word. (That's nouveau American slang for for 'absolutely')

Not gonna happen. But worth suggesting.

So she is no longer a sysop, and she will not be sluething again...

Sure she will. Look at her talk page. The old guard are annoyed that she quit. Tony Sideaway gave her an honorable mention for resigning, and commented that it bears well on her coming back.

She'll be back. I don't think she'll have learned much from this unfortunately, and neither will the environment have changed much a la Essjay, it will be seen as idiosyncratic. Durova's transgression will be contextualized and she'll be back in Drew business soon. NOT accepting Greg's courtly offer to join us here. She's rather eat tarpaulin.

I don't mean to be a downer but I seriously doubt she'll "grow and move on" from this.

She won't grow from it, but she's a tough cookie. Unfortunately, I see her as becoming even more focused on rooting out roots. (!)

She has fallen quite hard. I'm overloaded with self-esteem and I'd be humiliated beyond repair if my own private game of Clue culminated in such a disaster.

Every Omega has a 2nd Alpha. She'll be back here. She resigned before she lost too much face, and her goodbye was dignified. If nothing else she is dignified. Besides, she is in too much denial to take it too hard. She said there as a double standard being applied, and in a convoluted way, she's right. This never happened to SV, DG, or the rest of the cabal, but it happened to her. That's a double standard.

She's obviously not talented, look at all the mistakes she makes. She's just full of herself. There is a difference, even if they inspire the same sympathy.

But she writes beautifully, and she probably is a good researcher and catcher of badguys. Just that she made the badguys into ubitquitous bogeymen and attacked scads of innocent contributors, let alone anyone who had the slightest whiff of drama around them. She had no truck with Greg, for example, and dug herself in there, utterly needlessly. But she's a good writer, researcher, and she does give a very dignified response in communications. Its the inability to admit fault, even privately, that robs her of the ability to see things.

I dunno if this little Mortification Drama will yield any epiphanies. They rarely do.

Which is why they have to be replayed in so many endless reruns.

This post has been edited by Moulton:

I do hope that Lise sees this though, Greg. You're a class act, in spite of what JzG says about you....

A compliment: You're a class act,

What to omit from a compliment: in spite of what JzG says about you....

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

And don't forget Durova's secret helper, Lar, who has been providing her with Checkuser data and is standing as a Steward. Up to now, the Stewards have been a thoroughly decent bunch, I think.

No. My stomach just turned.

She's obviously not talented, look at all the mistakes she makes. She's just full of herself. There is a difference, even if they inspire the same sympathy.

I agree. She kept telling people how talented she was. She said she couldn't show her work because of "methods and operations" or some such nonsense. Whenever she wrote her lecturing articles to the business community, and especially her YouTube video, I felt embarrassed for her. Then we get a look at her secret work product in her complex investigations and it makes her look just plain stupid. No sympathy here.

How could anyone, after reading this case and all of the evidence, ever allow her to be an administrator at Wikipedia? Her case is as sad as it is a representation of a truly out of touch and quite possibly disturbed person. I believe she needs

Apparently you didnt hear about a guy named Essjay, who lied to a NewYorker reporter, about his degrees and being a professor of divinity (he had a high school diploma). He was outed by peoples from this board, there was an outcry, and still, he was appointed to a management job at Wikia one month later. By Jimbo. Bigger outcries. Jimbo asked him to resign. You dont know this? You gotta read your WP history.

How could anyone, after reading this case and all of the evidence, ever allow her to be an administrator at Wikipedia? Her case is as sad as it is a representation of a truly out of touch and quite possibly disturbed person. I believe she needs help that the Arbcom. panel cannot give.

If any of this is presented to intelligent people, they will send her on her way; quite possibly to a very good therapist and a reputable treatment center. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Wiki-therapy. Hm.

She's obviously not talented, look at all the mistakes she makes. She's just full of herself. There is a difference, even if they inspire the same sympathy.

I agree. She kept telling people how talented she was. She said she couldn't show her work because of "methods and operations" or some such nonsense. Whenever she wrote her lecturing articles to the business community, and especially her YouTube video, I felt embarrassed for her. Then we get a look at her secret work product in her complex investigations and it makes her look just plain stupid. No sympathy here.

I mean a talented writer, thinker, researcher, and such. Things that are good for the encyclopedia. But as an authority figure, she is in need of mentorship (though she loves being a mentor), because she needs limits. She needs a good management structure (most people do). She's too powerful of a character, and too egoistic to be left unfettered.

As for being self-important, she's that too. And her sleuthing skills suck. She mistakenly thinks she is psychic, and that's never a good place to be operating from, as an investigator.

Durova was desysopped at about 0.03 UMT. 26th November. Just after midnight Greenwich Mean Time

That's about 3pm on 25th November. Being 12 hours or so before she "resigned".

Don't know how we all missed that.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I dunno if this little Mortification Drama will yield any epiphanies. They rarely do.

Which is why they have to be replayed in so many endless reruns.

All Durova had to do was stop sleuthing. All she had to do was take the advice of those concerned like Giano.

Look at the contributions of an editor: Are they within policy? Is there a clear, unmistakable case of COI? Is a block even productive or necessary? Couldn't she have asked !! privately if he had a previous account before reacting?

The escalation would have stopped if Durova and others hadn't been taken by this growing paranoia of socks everywhere.

There will always be socks and rumors of socks. What can you do? Just block as you come across bad behavior. No need for intense investigations.

These situations rarely go the way anyone wants. Durova may very well leave the project than stick around and maybe write a little, revert a little, or collaborate a little. The things that give most Wikipedians pleasure and truly enhance the project.

In these situations, all you want is the madness to stop, but in the end it leaves a lot of bad feelings.

I think Durova needed to be stopped. But the sleuthing will go on if not by Durova than others.

With the exception of the US, most countries have done away with the death penalty for reasons that need not be reviewed here.

On the Internet, the equivalent penalty would be permanent banning.

But the architecture of the Internet, coupled with Wikipedia's policy of allowing anonymous participation renders the ultimate penalty rather toothless and futile.

Alienated Wikipedians have way too many avenues of recourse.

In the end, Wikipedia ends up behaving more and more like the Red Queen.

Recall the last words of Alice, "You're nothing but a pack of cards! Who cares for you?"

Perhaps that's how the Wikipedia Story will end.

Forgive me if I don't hyperlink properly- I'm new and still working the forum out.

Am I the only one that doesn't believe a word of this? (Not Durova herself- the whole thing.)

1. Her actions were ok'ed by some of ArbCom and the Foundation before she did it. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=173731864

2. WP:Secret has been brought in ok the back of this 'mistake' (which was ok'ed by them.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SECRET

3. It may not look like it at the moment, but this policy is going to mean the clique can do all this, and more, invasions of people's privacy behind the scenes again.

Woops. How convenient.

I also thing Durova may be able to come back as a sysop when she wants- she has enough fans. If she has given up permanently she agreed to it beforehand due to her own circumstances or stuuff we don't know, IMHO.

Then again maybe I credit them all with too much intelligence lol (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by wikiwhistle:

I also thing Durova may be able to come back as a sysop when she wants- she has enough fans. If she has given up permanently she agreed to it beforehand due to her own circumstances or stuuff we don't know, IMHO.

Then again maybe I credit them all with too much intelligence lol (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

She'll be re-annointed as admin, to be sure.

And she may go on wild rampages again, as many of her detractors will grow up, graduate, and develop real, offline lives. Most of her supporters are grown up net-nicks, and will stay.

But this will never entirely go away.

JeHochman must be upset. His real name is tied to this scandal, as is his consulting firm. It would be logical for him to take huge distance from her.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Hmm, she's not taking this very well at all. Off of her arbitration tips page, she mentions this case in her "experience" section :

26. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman (ongoing) Ate crow. Resigned administratorship..

26. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman (ongoing) Ate crow. Resigned administratorship..

I didn't see the crow pie, but apparently she views her resignation thus. Note to Durova: If you'd really have eaten crow earlier multiple times, you'd not have ever had to resign.

Question: Why is nothing being mentioned about JeHochman in this Durova and Jehochman/Proposed decision page? They are handling him as if he were 14 years old and not capable of being judged for his miscreant actions. His name is on that Arbcom case for a reason. And despite having acted like a 14 year old, he's at least 27 years old, and able to stand accused for his actions.

Do they view his jettisoning her as mentor as a plea bargain? Give me a break.

I'm no Durova fan, but this sucks.

(IMG:http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/OB-AI327_Jan_Br_20070314112236.jpg)
Much like "Marsha Marsha Marsha" it is "Durova Durova Durova". Where is any criticism towards JeHochman? He was not an administrator, sure. But he's not a child, and has to share some responsibility for this "joint Arbcom case", especially for his nifty erasures of any criticism towards her, which really was obnoxious. And obvious flouting of the rules. Does he get off scott-free, as a mentoree of another admin? Please.

Also, Durova's not auto-receiving her Sysop priviliges anytime soon. She'll have to go via normal channels to reapply.

Durova's sysop access

4) Durova gave up her sysop access under controversial circumstances and must get it back through normal channels.

Support:

1. Mackensen (talk) 18:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
2. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 18:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
3. James F. (talk) 18:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
4. Kirill 19:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
5. FloNight♥♥♥ 21:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
6. Fred Bauder (talk) 01:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
7. jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose:

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

When the going got rough, he abandoned her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=173482886
(with subsequent modifications)

He is not aware of this yet, but I have stopped taking advice from Durova, my former admin coach. In fact, I have accepted [[User:Physchim62]]'s offer to provide new admin training, and [[User:El C]] has also agreed to provide guidance on request.

I guess grovelling before ArbCom is what passes for character on WP nowadays. No wonder they don't like Giano.

When the going got rough, he abandoned her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=173482886
(with subsequent modifications)

He is not aware of this yet, but I have stopped taking advice from Durova, my former admin coach. In fact, I have accepted [[User:Physchim62]]'s offer to provide new admin training, and [[User:El C]] has also agreed to provide guidance on request.

I guess grovelling before ArbCom is what passes for character on WP nowadays. No wonder they don't like Giano.

I guess if your balls have been amputated, a REAL MAN isn't like something you like to have around.

GIANO FOR ARBCOM !! (and "!!" I mean with no irony)

He'll never get on that Committee, after telling Jimbo to buzz off, but he should be the popular favorite, if not cult hero.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: