Bishonen and Giano FARs Options

[Ottava]

This has been a problem I've seen brought up for many years. One of the things about FA is that they give certain people a wonderful defense. Two, Bishonen and Giano, have been going off of theirs for a very long time. When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify.

This current FAR is a latest example. Last time, they tried to destroy Mattisse for pointing out that the Emperor lacks clothes. Now, they just say "everything is good".

Just look, every paragraph has major problems:

Original research: "with the baseless suggestion sometimes made that he had been studying architecture in France (stated as fact in the Dictionary of National Biography)"

Essay: "Downes' example of one sugar baker's house in Liverpool, estimated to bring in £40,000 a year in trade from Barbados, throws a new light on Vanbrugh's social background, one rather different from the picture of a backstreet Chester sweetshop as painted by Leigh Hunt in 1840 and reflected in many later accounts."

Pure high school paper bs: "Vanbrugh is remembered throughout Britain, by inns, street names, a university college (York) and schools named in his honour, but one only has to wander through London, or the English country-side dotted with their innumerable country houses, to see the ever present influence of his architecture."

Horribly unencyclopedic exaggerations: "With the completion of Castle Howard English baroque came into fashion overnight."

Wonderfully vague: "Vanbrugh's reputation still suffers from accusations of extravagance, impracticability and a bombastic imposition of his own will on his clients."

Unfounded generalizations: "As was common in the 18th century, personal comfort was sacrificed to perspective. Windows were to adorn the facades, as well as light the interior."

Inability to cite direct quotes properly (along with horrible unencyclopedic POV): "Unsurprisingly under these circumstances, Vanbrugh's management of the Queen's Theatre in Haymarket showed "numerous signs of confusion, inefficiency, missed opportunities, and bad judgment" (Milhous)"

Most of the sources (when used, which is almost never) are old and outdated, obscure, or not really credible.

Hell, there are five major sources that should be included just to have real scholarship: 1. Gerald Berkowitz Sir John Vanbrugh and the End of Restoration Comedy (1981) 2. Susan Owen A companion to Restoration drama (2001) 3. Arthur Huseboe Sir John Vanbrugh (1976) 4. Deborah Fisk Cambridge Companion to English Restoration Theatre (2000) 5. Bernard Harris Sir John Vanbrugh (1967)


Does anyone have the balls to call them on it? No. Mattisse was partly destroyed by them over her mentioning the obvious. Even when Sandy Georgia was emailed about some of the majorly obvious OR and pure bs in the Legacy section, she didn't correct her claim asking for specifics. It is obvious that people want to have FA standards no longer apply to a select privileged few.

[Ottava]

Another winning entry: "The Duchess blamed Vanbrugh entirely for the growing extravagance of the palace, and its general design: that her husband and government had approved them, she discounted. (In fairness to her, it must be mentioned that the Duke of Marlborough had contributed £60,000 to the initial cost, which, supplemented by Parliament, should have built a monumental house.)"

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

[Theanima]

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

[Milton Roe]

Another winning entry: "The Duchess blamed Vanbrugh entirely for the growing extravagance of the palace, and its general design: that her husband and government had approved them, she discounted. (In fairness to her, it must be mentioned that the Duke of Marlborough had contributed £60,000 to the initial cost, which, supplemented by Parliament, should have built a monumental house.)"

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

LOL, yes. It sounds as if Winston Churchill had written it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[Malleus]

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

If "nobody notices or checks", them how do you account for the fact that John Vanbrugh is undergoing a review of its FA status?

[Ottava]

Bishonen and Giano are just two editors among the elite that use their FAs as a get out of jail free card, when lower-down folk in the system would normally have been banned years ago. It doesn't surprise me that their FAs don't meet the appropriate standards - many FAs don't, but because whoever writes them is either a good pal of the delegates, or someone who happened to nominate a lot of articles to FA, nobody notices or checks.

If "nobody notices or checks", them how do you account for the fact that John Vanbrugh is undergoing a review of its FA status?

Ed17 was either stupid or had balls. However, you can see him being crushed (but not as badly as Mattisse was, but Mattisse definitely responded in the wrong way and Ed17 isn't that stupid).

[Somey]

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

This has been in the article since October 2004, added by Giano himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...t&oldid=6580459

They had different standards back then, which is to say they had practically no standards, whereas now they merely have poor standards. Giano did, at least, remove this paragraph from an earlier version:

The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

So hey, at least there's that, I guess!

[Ottava]

The joyous courage with which... he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Sigh.

My side hurts. : (

[Giano]

"In fairness to her"? How can someone honestly thinks such narratological opining is even appropriate in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry?

This has been in the article since October 2004, added by Giano himself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...t&oldid=6580459

They had different standards back then, which is to say they had practically no standards, whereas now they merely have poor standards. Giano did, at least, remove this paragraph from an earlier version:

The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him, is the only passage in his life which may be called pathetic, save of course his struggle with the wicked woman of Marlborough.

So hey, at least there's that, I guess!

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

[Ottava]

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

Giacomo! Cite some of those damn quotes already! You know damn well that I would have jumped into that FAR and added cites if given the chance. I'm tired of all those chicken shits not willing to put any pressure on you to get off your lazy butt and do it! DO IT! It would take all of thirty minutes!

[Giano]

Did I write that passage? I don't recognise it and it certainly does not sound like me, but then I don't remember removing it either. Anyway, nice to see you are still with us Ottava - hope the "little" problem is getting better - you have my sympathies.

Giacomo

Giacomo! Cite some of those damn quotes already! You know damn well that I would have jumped into that FAR and added cites if given the chance. I'm tired of all those chicken shits not willing to put any pressure on you to get off your lazy butt and do it! DO IT! It would take all of thirty minutes!

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

[Ottava]

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

I didn't post the diff. I don't know who is responsible for the current language or the rest. I only know that your name came up at FAR and everyone ran like cowardly dogs.

And Giacomo, I have many of the reference books but, as you know, I can't fix things even though I want to.

[Giano]

Hello Ottava,

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giacomo

I didn't post the diff. I don't know who is responsible for the current language or the rest. I only know that your name came up at FAR and everyone ran like cowardly dogs.

And Giacomo, I have many of the reference books but, as you know, I can't fix things even though I want to.

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

[Ottava]

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

I reread all of my statements and I don't see where I target any of your writing. What I do say is along this line:

"When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify."

It is your -page-, but you never kept a handle on it. Then, when people do want to correct it you get too defensive and the pages aren't fixed. There is no claim that each specific problematic passage is yours, nor do I really care. But you want to have it connected to you and it needs fixing.

But yeah, the above statement by you is exactly why this particular page will probably not get fixed. Go! Fix the page!


P.S. Somey provided a diff where someone added something, but no one else attributed any particular line to anyone. Giano, you were quoting Somey above and attributing it to me.

This post has been edited by Ottava:

[Giano]

You implied that I write rubbish! You cleverly say what I add and what I don't, yet your diffs fail to support you. I had sympathy for you being banned - now I see why. You lie and you misconstrue. Insread of whining and crying here about Bishonen and I perhaps you need to examine your own behaviour. I am still there and that clearly bugs you - it astounds me too and sooner of later I won't be, but in the meantime ask yourself why. It's not because I have numerous powerful friends as you imply because I don't - it's because all I say is to the best of my knowledge the truth. I don't remember edits from last year let alone 5 years ago - what sort of person needs to go digging five years to try and discredit someone? Perhaps you need to ask yourself some of these questions.

Giacomo

I reread all of my statements and I don't see where I target any of your writing. What I do say is along this line:

"When the pages are properly put to FAR, they throw a fit. One of the reason why there are so many horrible FAs is exactly what this individual matter can exemplify."

It is your -page-, but you never kept a handle on it. Then, when people do want to correct it you get too defensive and the pages aren't fixed. There is no claim that each specific problematic passage is yours, nor do I really care. But you want to have it connected to you and it needs fixing.

But yeah, the above statement by you is exactly why this particular page will probably not get fixed. Go! Fix the page!


P.S. Somey provided a diff where someone added something, but no one else attributed any particular line to anyone. Giano, you were quoting Somey above and attributing it to me.

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

[Ottava]

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

I'm not going to sock and I'm trying to get people to fix it.

Your name is attached to it. You should think about your reputation. Look at some of the statements in there. Some of them are patently ridiculous. You want that to be your legacy? You can do far better than that.

[Giano]

You want it fixing Ottava - fix it or get somebody else to, don't pretend that you cannot! Howver, don't come whining to me because you have placed yourself outside of the pale and can't . My sympathy for you has evaporated. Anyway, a FA is a fleeting honour, as are all Wikipedia's honours, anyone who accepts anything from the hierachy of that project gives others the opportunity to take it away in an attempt to make them sing the official Wikipedia Song - That's why my "rollback" happily went the other day - it's better to have nothing, then you have nothing to lose. Take a tip from me, if you want to beat the Wikipedia system, don't play along with it.

Giacomo

I'm not going to sock and I'm trying to get people to fix it.

Your name is attached to it. You should think about your reputation. Look at some of the statements in there. Some of them are patently ridiculous. You want that to be your legacy? You can do far better than that.

Ottava, there is little there to concern me; it seems to concern you more. I'm sure my reputation will survive an attack by you and a few gormless Wikipedians who probably know even less on the subject than you. You need to get over yourself and find a new project, you obviously take Wikipedia far too seriously. You played their game and you lost. Now, I am not going to stay here arguing with you.

Giacomo

[Ottava]

Ottava, there is little there to concern me; it seems to concern you more. I'm sure my reputation will survive an attack by you and a few gormless Wikipedians who probably know even less on the subject than you. You need to get over yourself and find a new project, you obviously take Wikipedia far too seriously. You played their game and you lost. Now, I am not going to stay here arguing with you.

Giacomo

Know less on the subject than me? That would be most people in the world. Giacomo, I know these writers. The last time one of the Restoration pages came up I listed many major, reliable sources that were ignored and that it didn't reflect the criticism. I already listed five important sources. At least two would be essential to having real coverage.

You can look at my pages. Compare Samuel Johnson to the page. There is a clear different between the two, and one is currently academic quality and the other is not.

[Eva Destruction]

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giano, that wasn't you; that disgraceful example of writing which has no place in a so-called "encyclopaedia" was brought to you by (drumroll) Encyclopaedia Britannica.

[Ottava]

I just followed your diff, in an attempt to find me writing "The joyous courage with which, having persuaded thirty people in the fashionable world to aid him in finding the money, and William Congreve to aid him in finding the plays, he began to build in perfect unconsciousness of the danger before him...." I don't see it. I don't say I did not write it, I say i cannot remember writing it, neither am I able to find a diff. You want to take me on with historic quotes do feel free; I cannot be bothered to re-check references I put down five years ago, but hey great news, nothing is stopping you researching them, the reference books are listed. It's as easy for a great intelctual such as yourself as it is for me. Anyway, the diff?

Giano, that wasn't you; that disgraceful example of writing which has no place in a so-called "encyclopaedia" was brought to you by (drumroll) Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Oh god, add that to my list of reasons why I despise Britannica.