Jimbo debates Andrew Keen Options

[tarantino]

Andrew Keen on why “the Internet is ideology”

One of the mistakes we make about the Internet is that it’s technology. It isn’t; it’s ideology. The Internet was built by people who questioned authority. The Internet is bound up in a fundamental assault on the notion of expertise, on what Jimmy calls “the mainstream media,” which includes shows like this, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal. And the idea that representative democracy, experts — whether in media, in politics, in the arts, in legal affairs, in intellectual affairs — are unreliable and need to be replaced by what Jimmy calls “the people” is deeply dangerous.

What I most fear about the Internet — which…we all use; I’m as addicted as everybody else — is the way we take this technology, which has no center, is flattened, has done away with authority and expertise — we take this technology to prove the ideological, idealized theories of Jimmy Wales. The truth is, we need expertise, we need authority, we need to remind ourselves of the foundations of representative democracy.

[Jon Awbrey]

Andrew Keen on why “the Internet is ideology”

One of the mistakes we make about the Internet is that it’s technology. It isn’t; it’s ideology. The Internet was built by people who questioned authority. The Internet is bound up in a fundamental assault on the notion of expertise, on what Jimmy calls “the mainstream media”, which includes shows like this, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal. And the idea that representative democracy, experts — whether in media, in politics, in the arts, in legal affairs, in intellectual affairs — are unreliable and need to be replaced by what Jimmy calls “the people” is deeply dangerous.

What I most fear about the Internet — which…we all use; I’m as addicted as everybody else — is the way we take this technology, which has no center, is flattened, has done away with authority and expertise — we take this technology to prove the ideological, idealized theories of Jimmy Wales. The truth is, we need expertise, we need authority, we need to remind ourselves of the foundations of representative democracy.

Wow, Dueling Jimbos …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)

[Moulton]

Many people see the Internet as a right and not a responsibility. Jeff Jarvis, who I think we’re all friendly with, said the Internet is the next society. And he may be right. In the 18th century, when we were figuring out modern industrial society, we came up with social contract theory about rights and responsibilities. I think the same is true of the Internet. It’s a reality, for better or for worse. It is perhaps the central fact of social and political life in the 21st century. And it needs to be understood not only in terms of rights — of taking, of stealing, of getting it for free, and all the other problems associated with the Internet — but also one of responsibility.

The core question, in my mind, about democracy is whether the Internet culture, this highly democratized media where everyone becomes an author, where we do away with the old structures of power, where we undermine the 20th century meritocracy and we replace it with this 21st century — what I would call, perhaps mob rule, and what you could call democracy — whether that would actually lend itself to the production of a better-informed citizen.

[thekohser]

Wow, Dueling Jimbos …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)

Jon, it sounds like you're not keen on Keen. Could you elaborate in just a few sentences for me (and us)? I generally like what Keen has to say... but, admittedly, I'm easily entranced by anyone who points out the follies of Jimmy Wales.

P.S. After "Great, thank you," guess what the first word out of Jimbo's mouth was?

This post has been edited by thekohser:

[Jon Awbrey]

Wow, Dueling Jimbos …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)

Jon, it sounds like you're not keen on Keen. Could you elaborate in just a few sentences for me (and us)? I generally like what Keen has to say … but, admittedly, I'm easily entranced by anyone who points out the follies of Jimmy Wales.

Look, you and I both know what it's really like in the trenches. Those Model 2001 Hot Air Buffoons — Keen, Manjoo, Wales, I haven't read Sifry — they're so udderly detached from the war on the ground that it's just plain comical watching them belly-bump and chest-thump each other around in Laputa-Stratos City. What real difference does it make which side of the fantasy volleyball net any of them are on?

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[Milton Roe]

Look, you and I both know what it's really like in the trenches. Those Model 2001 Hot Air Buffoons — Keen, Manjoo, Wales, I haven't read Sifry — they're so udderly detached from the war on the ground that it's just plain comical watching them belly-bump and chest-thump each other around in Laputa-Stratos City. What real difference does it make which side of the fantasy volleyball net any of them are on?

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Well, important questions do not get answered.

Is Jimbo as brave with mortae as he is with the desysop command?

(IMG:http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Shrlocc/Mortae.jpg)

Has somebody stolen ArbComm's brain to run a city somewhere, leaving us with a shambling remote-controlled hulk? I mean, you could probably make it do all kinds of brainless things in the meantime, but is that really the point? Perhaps that is the point.

(IMG:http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Shrlocc/brainmissing.jpg)

And finally and most importantly, when is Droxine's clothing going to finally just fall off, as expected? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif) I may have been toking xenite, but I think there must be some illegal use of antigravity there which has nothing to do with levitating cities.

(IMG:http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll191/Shrlocc/Droxine.jpg)

[thekohser]

I read in one of those "behind the scenes" Star Trek books that the actress who played Droxine was actually flat-chested, as the costumers couldn't get that get-up to actually work on a full-chested bust. So, you're looking at what are probably grapefruit-sized balls of polyurethane foam.

Nowadays, they just put the synthetic stuffing under the skin.

[Moulton]

I read in one of those "behind the scenes" Star Trek books that the actress who played Droxine was actually flat-chested...

This photo of Diana Ewing (the actress who played Droxine) confirms that.

[thekohser]

The thing that kills me in the 4-man video debate is that as they're talking about how facts and truth are conveyed on the Internet, the moderator keeps calling Jimbo "the Founder" of Wikipedia, and that's what pops up under his name in the graphic under his yapping mouth. You'd think that someone who has learned the truth about this big, fat lie would have pointed that out. Thus I wonder if any one of those 5 men (other than Jimbo) knows it's a lie?

[Jon Awbrey]

Look, you and I both know what it's really like in the trenches. Those Model 2001 Hot Air Buffoons — Keen, Manjoo, Wales, I haven't read Sifry — they're so udderly detached from the war on the ground that it's just plain comical watching them belly-bump and chest-thump each other around in Laputa-Stratos City. What real difference does it make which side of the fantasy volleyball net any of them are on?

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Well, important questions do not get answered.

Is Jimbo as brave with mortae as he is with the desysop command?

Has somebody stolen ArbComm's brain to run a city somewhere, leaving us with a shambling remote-controlled hulk? I mean, you could probably make it do all kinds of brainless things in the meantime, but is that really the point? Perhaps that is the point.

And finally and most importantly, when is Droxine's clothing going to finally just fall off, as expected? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/confused.gif) I may have been toking xenite, but I think there must be some illegal use of antigravity there which has nothing to do with levitating cities.

That's precisely the sight-gag I remember as Spock says his line about "finest example of sustained anti-gravity levitation" while Kirk, just spying her entrance, nods affirmatively.

Now, back to the βøøβøθøn already in e-gress.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[thekohser]

Micah Sifry says (around 42:30):

I think it's fair to note that the trend has been toward owning your words and using your real name. People who started out as anonymous bloggers, in many, many cases, have now come forward and are now using their names.

Then the moderator interrupts:

Or were outted! Against their will.

Then we hear Sifry talk about how some African-American bloggers had to be anonymous at first, because they were unsure if they might get death threats, etc., etc. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif)

Sounds like Sifry is using a couple of data points to make a wide generalization. In my observations, I think the trend is that more and more writers (especially commenters on blogs and news stories, as well as Yahoo! Answers participants and their ilk) hide behind anonymity so that they may more freely make outrageous statements without accountability.

I wonder if some academic "study" could prove or disprove Sifry's hypothesis.

[GlassBeadGame]

I posted some thoughts on what Keen is saying here in Jon's thread on Democracy and Inquiry which has less Star Trek stuff.

[thekohser]

CRAZY GUY ALERT: at 65:53.

[thekohser]

And at the 86:00 mark, a questioner from the audience (who strikes me as a Wikipedia admin archetype) gets completely obliterated by Andrew Keen, who notes of him, "you seem very pleased with yourself" and "it's a stupid question". Keen was vicious there.

Keen:

Give me an example of a pure democracy that worked. I mean, why is that funny? You're not asking the question, you're making a statement. And what you're suggesting is that direct democracy can work, and it doesn't. And it's a serious issue, because if you look at direct democracies in history, it's a catastrophe.

[Cedric]

After all these years, Keen still hasn't cottoned on to the fact that anything that Jimbo or the Frei Kultur Kinder say in public about "direct democracy", or any sort of democracy, on Wikimedia sites is just so much eyewash. As we here know all too well, such a thing has never been permitted, and as a matter of policy will never be. This is little different from the bullshit that Jimbo spouted off to the US Senate about how "The First Amendment plays an important role in this project (Wikipedia)", when in fact the very notion is expressly disavowed on Wikipedia itself.

[Jon Awbrey]

After all these years, Keen still hasn't cottoned on to the fact that anything that Jimbo or the Frei Kultur Kinder say in public about "direct democracy", or any sort of democracy, on Wikimedia sites is just so much eyewash. As we here know all too well, such a thing has never been permitted, and as a matter of policy will never be. This is little different from the bullshit that Jimbo spouted off to the US Senate about how "The First Amendment plays an important role in this project (Wikipedia)", when in fact the very notion is expressly disavowed on Wikipedia itself.

Exactamundo!

Keen is still wrestling with Jimbo's rhetoric, which even the most clueless among us knows by now is an empty shell — just the latest snakeskin he casts off to elude the easily divertable critic.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

[Milton Roe]

I read in one of those "behind the scenes" Star Trek books that the actress who played Droxine was actually flat-chested, as the costumers couldn't get that get-up to actually work on a full-chested bust. So, you're looking at what are probably grapefruit-sized balls of polyurethane foam.

Nowadays, they just put the synthetic stuffing under the skin.

Yeah, but that "stuffing" has to have about the specific gravity of water, so it STILL wouldn't work for that.

William Ware Theiss always tried to design stuff that would get past the gov censors, while still looking like it was almost about to fail catastrophically for engineering reasons (kind of like the US space shuttle), but I suppose even he wasn't magic.

[Daniel Brandt]

Farhad Manjoo is an idiot, and he's devious. Don't ever let him interview you. He's the one who declared in 2002, when Google-Watch.org started, that I must be a nut case because I don't like Google. His Salon piece set the "Daniel Brandt the nut case who doesn't like Google" meme in concrete for years to come.

I mention it here (scroll down a bit). There's a photo of Jimbo across from the photo of Manjoo. That's because they're more alike than different. SlimVirgin cited Manjoo and the Beasley site when she started that stub on me in September 2005. There were no rules on Wikipedia, SlimVirgin had her own agenda, and Jimbo backed her up. I will never forgive Beasley, I will never forgive Manjoo, I will never forgive SlimVirgin, and I will never forgive Jimbo.

On the Internet, if you are the first one to be right about something (like I was right about Google in 2002), that's the same as being wrong.

And people wonder why I don't talk to cyberspace journalists these days unless they already have a good track record with me...

[Herschelkrustofsky]

If this has already been discussed somewhere on the site, I apologize for the redundancy. At any rate, the video of the debate is available here. Keen gets in some relatively sharp jabs.

[thekohser]

We don't like redundancy.

Now, is there any chance that one of the mods will roll up the "Swiss prize" threads about Jimbo's recent windfall?