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_ General Discussion _ Here comes the big bad Terms of Use
Posted by: thekohser
Look out, everyone. The WMF is actually http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use#4._Activities_That_You_Agree_to_Refrain_From for the Wikimedia sites.
This news came from an http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068171.html by Geoff Brigham, who you may remember was http://www.examiner.com/wiki-edits-in-national/wikimedia-foundation-finds-new-attorney to the wider world by the mainstream media.
Here's what we'll potentially have to refrain from while playing around on Wikipedia:
QUOTE
Activities That You Agree to Refrain From
Maintaining and providing for a vibrant Community of Users is very important to us. We exist because of the contributions of Users like yourself, and we happily welcome your participation. Certain activities, however, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other Users and violate our rules, and they may also subject you to liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other Users, you may not engage in such activities on our sites.
Prohibited activities include:
Harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism;
Using any information obtained from a Project website to harass, abuse, or harm another person;
Intentionally or knowingly posting false, inaccurate, misleading, defamatory, or libelous content;
Infringing the privacy rights of others under the laws of the United States or your own country or jurisdiction;
Infringing copyrights, trademarks, patents, or other proprietary rights;
Linking to material that violates any provision of this Agreement or any applicable law or regulation;
Attempting to impersonate another User or individual, misrepresenting your affiliation with any individual or entity, or using the Username of another User;
Posting child pornography or any other content that violates U.S. federal or state law concerning child pornography;
Soliciting personal information from anyone under the age of 18 or exploiting anyone under the age of 18 in a sexual, violent, or other manner, or violating any federal or state law otherwise intended to protect the health or well-being of minors;
Fraud, misrepresentation, trafficking in unlawful obscene material, or gambling;
Posting or distributing content that contains any viruses, malware, worms, Trojan horses, malicious code, or other harmful content;
Automated uses of the site that are abusive or disruptive of the Services and have not been approved by the Wikimedia Community;
Disrupting the Services by placing an undue burden on a Project website or the networks or servers connected with a Project website;
Disrupting the Services by inundating any of the Project websites with communications or other traffic that suggests no serious intent to use the Project website for its stated purpose;
Probing, scanning, or testing the vulnerability of any of our technical systems or networks without authorization;
Accessing, tampering with, or using any of our non-public areas in our computer systems, including shared areas that you have not been invited to;
Transmitting chain mail, junk mail, or spam to other Users; and
Using the Services in a manner that is inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.
Maintaining and providing for a vibrant Community of Users is very important to us. We exist because of the contributions of Users like yourself, and we happily welcome your participation. Certain activities, however, whether legal or illegal, may be harmful to other Users and violate our rules, and they may also subject you to liability. Therefore, for your own protection and for that of other Users, you may not engage in such activities on our sites.
Prohibited activities include:
Harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism;
Using any information obtained from a Project website to harass, abuse, or harm another person;
Intentionally or knowingly posting false, inaccurate, misleading, defamatory, or libelous content;
Infringing the privacy rights of others under the laws of the United States or your own country or jurisdiction;
Infringing copyrights, trademarks, patents, or other proprietary rights;
Linking to material that violates any provision of this Agreement or any applicable law or regulation;
Attempting to impersonate another User or individual, misrepresenting your affiliation with any individual or entity, or using the Username of another User;
Posting child pornography or any other content that violates U.S. federal or state law concerning child pornography;
Soliciting personal information from anyone under the age of 18 or exploiting anyone under the age of 18 in a sexual, violent, or other manner, or violating any federal or state law otherwise intended to protect the health or well-being of minors;
Fraud, misrepresentation, trafficking in unlawful obscene material, or gambling;
Posting or distributing content that contains any viruses, malware, worms, Trojan horses, malicious code, or other harmful content;
Automated uses of the site that are abusive or disruptive of the Services and have not been approved by the Wikimedia Community;
Disrupting the Services by placing an undue burden on a Project website or the networks or servers connected with a Project website;
Disrupting the Services by inundating any of the Project websites with communications or other traffic that suggests no serious intent to use the Project website for its stated purpose;
Probing, scanning, or testing the vulnerability of any of our technical systems or networks without authorization;
Accessing, tampering with, or using any of our non-public areas in our computer systems, including shared areas that you have not been invited to;
Transmitting chain mail, junk mail, or spam to other Users; and
Using the Services in a manner that is inconsistent with any and all applicable laws and regulations.
Watch for how the Wikimedia "community" will invent new and twisted ways of defining the words "harass", "misleading", "testing", and "invited".
Posted by: Cedric
Hmmmm. I wonder http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068184.html? 
Posted by: Forward!
QUOTE(Cedric @ Fri 9th September 2011, 7:20pm) 
Hmmmm. I wonder http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068184.html?
I think we all know who that refers to, and I'm pretty sure they're banned from here too.
Posted by: EricBarbour
If they actually implement this, they'll have to start by banning about 30-40% of the administrators.
Conclusion: they won't implement this.
Posted by: The Joy
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 9th September 2011, 3:07pm)
If they actually implement this, they'll have to start by banning about 30-40% of the administrators.
Conclusion: they won't implement this.
Or it will be implemented with everyone ignoring it until they need to use it as a banhammer against their enemies.
Now Giano, Malleus, and other straight-talkers will have something new to fear.
Posted by: Ottava
"Posting child pornography or any other content that violates U.S. federal or state law concerning child pornography;"
US Law (as well as German law, mind you) states that child pornography includes cartoon pornography if the individual looks like a child to a "reasonable" person. Just imagine how this will be twisted around.
It also says that unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia or genital region is also child pornography, which means underwear shots with the rest of the body cropped out (one was recently deleted on Commons) would clearly violate that. However, you can expect fights.
Edit - sorry, apparently the image wasn't deleted yet - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Hanes_Boxer_brief.JPG There were many similar images with clear statements that they were taken of minors.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 9th September 2011, 1:37pm)
Look out, everyone. The WMF is actually http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use#4._Activities_That_You_Agree_to_Refrain_From for the Wikimedia sites.
This news came from an http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068171.html by Geoff Brigham, who you may remember was http://www.examiner.com/wiki-edits-in-national/wikimedia-foundation-finds-new-attorney to the wider world by the mainstream media.
QUOTE
Harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism;
Watch for how the Wikimedia "community" will invent new and twisted ways of defining the words "harass", "misleading", "testing", and "invited".
Or "threats", or "stalking", or "spamming", or "vandalism"... that will be fun indeed.
Will the ubiquitous "user warning templates" qualify as threats?
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 4:17pm)
"Posting child pornography or any other content that violates U.S. federal or state law concerning child pornography;"
Dude, get yer mind out of the gutter, will ya? Sheesh!
Posted by: Alison
QUOTE(Forward! @ Fri 9th September 2011, 11:46am)
QUOTE(Cedric @ Fri 9th September 2011, 7:20pm)
Hmmmm. I wonder http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068184.html?
I think we all know who that refers to, and I'm pretty sure they're banned from here too.
They've won the triple-crown of being banned from WP, banned from here, and banned from ED (old and new)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 1:17pm)
It also says that unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia or genital region is also child pornography
You're the only one I know who's been repeatedly shown to have indulged in "unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia", as your many postings here have illustrated. Seriously, dude.
Posted by: Sololol
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 4:17pm)
Edit - sorry, apparently the image wasn't deleted yet - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Hanes_Boxer_brief.JPG There were many similar images with clear statements that they were taken of minors.
So you just posted a link to child pornography on our fair website?! Say it ain't so, Ottava!
Posted by: Zoloft
QUOTE(Sololol @ Fri 9th September 2011, 4:09pm)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 4:17pm)
Edit - sorry, apparently the image wasn't deleted yet - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Hanes_Boxer_brief.JPG There were many similar images with clear statements that they were taken of minors.
So you just posted a link to child pornography on our fair website?! Say it ain't so, Ottava!
You know what they say—anyone who thinks about that stuff all the time and has access to it is a... *falls over laughing*
No, I can't sink that low, sorry.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE
Linking to material that violates any provision of this Agreement or any applicable law or regulation
It's BADSITES all over again!
Posted by: Guido den Broeder
Cool!
Even the first term alone will pretty much empty the user base. 
Posted by: carbuncle
QUOTE
We will not be liable to you or to any other party for any direct, indirect, incidental, special, consequential or exemplary damages, including but not limited to, damages for loss of profits, goodwill, use, data, or other intangible losses, regardless of whether we were advised of the possibility of such damage. In no event shall our liability under these rules exceed one-hundred dollars ($100.00) in aggregate. In the case that applicable law may not allow the limitation or exclusion of liability or incidental or consequential damages, the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you, although our liability will be limited to the fullest extent permitted by applicable law.
We are not liable for any ill effects of WP. Of course, not being liable, our liability is limited to $100 or whatever pocket change we can gather up in the office. But we are not liable. Of course, if we were found to be liable, which we are not, and our own limitation on our liability were to be, well, not really something we can do, then we would only be liable to the extent of the law (which seems like it might be obvious, but you never know when some judge is going to have a minor stroke while on the bench and sentence everyone in the WMF to interplanetary exodus).
Posted by: Ottava
QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 9th September 2011, 7:49pm)
QUOTE(Forward! @ Fri 9th September 2011, 11:46am)
QUOTE(Cedric @ Fri 9th September 2011, 7:20pm)
Hmmmm. I wonder http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-September/068184.html?
I think we all know who that refers to, and I'm pretty sure they're banned from here too.
They've won the triple-crown of being banned from WP, banned from here, and banned from ED (old and new)
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 1:17pm)
It also says that unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia or genital region is also child pornography
You're the only one I know who's been repeatedly shown to have indulged in "unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia", as your many postings here have illustrated. Seriously, dude.
Are people who run MADD drunk drivers? One can be obsessed with getting rid of a crime without being committers of the crime. I find your logic interesting.
Are women who create rape support groups or push for stricter rape laws as bad as rapists? Those who want to stop high murder rates as bad as murderers?
Sololol
QUOTE
So you just posted a link to child pornography on our fair website?! Say it ain't so, Ottava!
I posted a link to a deletion discussion that shows how people were willing to keep the image before.
Posted by: SL93
If this is actually implemented, it will be just like the policies that are twisted around by individual editors especially in the case of admins. It is almost impossible to change an admin's behavior because discussion about their behavior normally points to the false belief that admins are messiahs or something.
Posted by: TheKartingWikipedian
Plenty of "us" and "we" [Wikimedia Foundation] in that load of bullshit ToU - meaning, "not you". I thought Wikipedia was some sort of 'community project', meaning "all of us" or "everyone". There's too much "us and them" for my liking.
Opportunities for loads of new templates though: "Big Red Cross - You are in breach of OUR terms and conditions .... blah, blah, blah". Fuck off Wikipedia! You stink.
Posted by: melloden
QUOTE(TheKartingWikipedian @ Sat 10th September 2011, 5:36pm)
Plenty of "us" and "we" [Wikimedia Foundation] in that load of bullshit ToU - meaning, "not you". I thought Wikipedia was some sort of 'community project', meaning "all of us" or "everyone". There's too much "us and them" for my liking.
Opportunities for loads of new templates though: "Big Red Cross - You are in breach of OUR terms and conditions .... blah, blah, blah". Fuck off Wikipedia! You stink.
You thought that Wikipedia was a community project? It's not been clear that the WMF runs everything and can override the "community" when- and however it wants because it owns Wikipedia? There's a bunch of "us and them" because the WMF--not the editors--can shut Wikipedia down whenever it wants.
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(melloden @ Sat 10th September 2011, 11:51am)
There's a bunch of "us and them" because the WMF--not the editors--can shut Wikipedia down whenever it wants.
They should shut it down. But of course, they won't--because the WMF is now a moneymaking operation. Sue Gardner and Erik Moeller are quite fond of their fat salaries, and of their remarkable level of personal irresponsibility on the job. Not to mention all the asskissing they are unquestionably the recipients of.
It's like Comic-Con, or the furry convention scene. Too big to fail. If they shut it down, not only would thousands of basement-dwellers have nothing to do and go crazy. More important, Sue and Erik would have to go out and find real jobs. And they can't do that.
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
Posted by: Detective
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 4:17pm)
Edit - sorry, apparently the image wasn't deleted yet - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Hanes_Boxer_brief.JPG There were many similar images with clear statements that they were taken of minors.
The intriguing thing is that this link has two deletion discussions. The first was closed as a keep. The second seems to be heading for a unanimous delete. Yet the first photo is just a redirect to the second! Can anyone explain the logic?
If the caption hadn't said it was a 14 year old, would anyone have known?
Posted by: Vigilant
QUOTE(Ottava @ Fri 9th September 2011, 8:17pm)
"Posting child pornography or any other content that violates U.S. federal or state law concerning child pornography;"
US Law (as well as German law, mind you) states that child pornography includes cartoon pornography if the individual looks like a child to a "reasonable" person. Just imagine how this will be twisted around.
It also says that unnecessary focus on a child's genitalia or genital region is also child pornography, which means underwear shots with the rest of the body cropped out (one was recently deleted on Commons) would clearly violate that. However, you can expect fights.
Edit - sorry, apparently the image wasn't deleted yet - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Hanes_Boxer_brief.JPG There were many similar images with clear statements that they were taken of minors.
Let's take stock here:
* You are opinionated, shrill and and aggressive when presenting your position.
* You are an insufferable know it all who thinks everyone who disagrees with you is evil.
* You've had some sort of serious sexual abuse in your past
* You are obsessed with little boys' underwear
You're going to be a great Catholic priest Jeffrey.
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th September 2011, 5:41pm)
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales.
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 11th September 2011, 11:02am)
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th September 2011, 5:41pm)
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sun 11th September 2011, 6:11pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 11th September 2011, 11:02am)
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th September 2011, 5:41pm)
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales. Both of you are over the line on this one.
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sun 11th September 2011, 3:57pm)
Both of you are over the line on this one.
a) the fact that you know what this refers to indicates that there is, in fact, something unpleasantly bad
about Erik Moeller.
b) nothing would be more ironically ugly than to have Wales's spawn molested by one of Master Wales's
closest wiki-buddies. Because WP is a ripe target for pedophiles, because pedos have been trying to
edit WP articles to make themselves look like solid citizens, and because the second-in-command at
the Wikimedia Foundation wrote http://valleywag.gawker.com/387735/wikipedia-leader-erik-mller-children-are-pornography stating that he didn't think that "non-violent child pornography"
and sex between adults and children was all that bad, after all.
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sun 11th September 2011, 7:54pm)
nothing would be more ironically ugly than to have Wales's spawn molested by one of Master Wales's closest wiki-buddies.
Okay, you're really not seeing why this sentiment is the sentiment of a seriously sick fuckwit?
Posted by: SB_Johnny
Unless you really think the sins of the father should be paid for by the children, of course.
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sun 11th September 2011, 5:07pm)
Okay, you're really not seeing why this sentiment is the sentiment of a seriously sick fuckwit?
Forgive me, I just can't help picking at this old scab.
None of this is mentioned in Moeller's BLP, did you know that? And that anyone attempting to insert
this information finds themselves banned and the material oversighted very quickly? A BLP that
has been AFDed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Erik_M%C3%B6ller_%283rd_nomination%29 to date, btw.
A BLP that Cirt and SqueakBox have spent many, many hours writing, to make Moeller look
like a genius. (If you're wondering why Cirt received such grand treatment on WP (until he
was desysopped on Friday), this is a good example.)
That's my main beef with Moeller. It's not even the pedophile issue, it's the fact that he is
treated as "more equal than others" by the other Wiki-animals. Digital Hero, Friend of the
Ineffable Jimbo, and incapable of doing wrong.
Plus, there's nothing in his BLP about the many Usenet posts he was responsible for back
in the 1990s. Some of them are, to put it mildly, a bit eccentric. It is my opinion that he
is a crank--a great believer in crackpot "nerd" subjects like "transhumanism" and "The Singularity".
If he wanted to write on a blog or in a book about all this, it's his right. But he's more than just a blogger.
He is No. 2 at a major nonprofit that runs the seventh most popular website on earth, and
hardly anyone ever asks questions about his personal beliefs or past history.
What qualifies him for this job, other than his long buddy-buddy with Jimbo Wales?
Posted by: SB_Johnny
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sun 11th September 2011, 8:25pm)
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Sun 11th September 2011, 5:07pm)
Okay, you're really not seeing why this sentiment is the sentiment of a seriously sick fuckwit?
<long sermon to choir>
Right, but as far as lil miss Wales is concerned, I hope she'll grow up to be a fine woman with considerably more integrity than her dear old dad. I also hope that she won't need the "hard lessons" of the sort you're suggesting to achieve that.
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sun 11th September 2011, 8:25pm)
What qualifies him for this job, other than his long buddy-buddy with Jimbo Wales?
His movie-star good looks?
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 11th September 2011, 2:02pm)
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 10th September 2011, 5:41pm)
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales.
Note to Johnny and any others who may have misinterpreted this... This was intended for comedic effect, not actual aspirational wishing aloud.
Posted by: lilburne
In other developments online postings that are designated as cyberbullying are now resulting in jail terms in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14907590
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14915030
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(lilburne @ Wed 14th September 2011, 7:34am)
In other developments online postings that are designated as cyberbullying are now resulting in jail terms in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14907590
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14915030
How long before some Wikipediot suggests that this was discrimination against an Asperger's Syndrome sufferer in each case?
Posted by: lilburne
QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 14th September 2011, 2:36pm)
QUOTE(lilburne @ Wed 14th September 2011, 7:34am)
In other developments online postings that are designated as cyberbullying are now resulting in jail terms in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14907590
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-14915030
How long before some Wikipediot suggests that this was discrimination against an Asperger's Syndrome sufferer in each case?
Paging Silver ...
Posted by: Michaeldsuarez
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Terms_of_use&diff=2977569&oldid=2975406:
QUOTE
but we require you to be civil and polite in your interactions with others in the community and to act in good faith and cooperate with others for the success of the shared Project.
QUOTE
In addition, any incivility, bad faith editing, or working against the ends of the project, as defined by local Projects, may result in a ban from editing some or all of our sites.
The new Terms of Use now demand that editors be civil, polite, and cooperative.
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Mon 10th October 2011, 9:27pm)
The new Terms of Use now demand that editors be civil, polite, and cooperative.
Yes, http://toolserver.org/~chm/whois.php?ip=76.126.11.128.
Posted by: Michaeldsuarez
QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 11th October 2011, 7:22am)
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Mon 10th October 2011, 9:27pm)
The new Terms of Use now demand that editors be civil, polite, and cooperative.
Yes, http://toolserver.org/~chm/whois.php?ip=76.126.11.128.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=2977591&oldid=2976864
It's Geoffbrigham. he has a habit of forgetting to log in:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=2918423&oldid=2918412
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=2974762&oldid=2974755
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Tue 11th October 2011, 9:09am)
It's Geoffbrigham. he has a habit of forgetting to log in:
How cool that the Wikimedia Foundation's lawyer is one of my customers!
Posted by: thekohser
Nice of them to http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=next&oldid=2982385 (but not me) in the discussion.
Posted by: Zoloft
I hereby propose that Wikipedians who attempt to use the TOS to get users banned (because the TOS gives infinite reasons to ban almost anyone) be termed a TOSser.
Posted by: Detective
QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 11th October 2011, 7:51pm)
Nice of them to http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=next&oldid=2982385 (but not me) in the discussion.
Bad news.
User:WhatamIdoing replies that http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terms_of_use&diff=next&oldid=2982416.
Posted by: Michaeldsuarez
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:NaBUru38&diff=3643997&oldid=1474738
The new Terms of use will come into effect on May 20, 2012. If you haven't spoke out before, you're free to do so here and now, although it's too late to suggest any real changes to the terms.
Posted by: Text
QUOTE
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
QUOTE
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales.
Lawl
QUOTE
The new Terms of use will come into effect on May 20, 2012. If you haven't spoke out before, you're free to do so here and now, although it's too late to suggest any real changes to the terms.
Someone has to make a bro-speak version of those. Look at the terms here: http://slacktory.com/2011/08/entire-facebook-terms-of-service-in-bro-speak/
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Text @ Fri 13th April 2012, 5:49pm)
QUOTE
Would you hire Erik Moeller?
QUOTE
Sure! I'd hire him to babysit Kira Wales.
Lawl
Not sure who is more of a pig. Moeller for influencing WP with his bizarre views on "nonexploitive" child/adult sexual relations? Kohs for gratuitously dragging a named child into his obsessive vendetta? You for rekindling the matter for general mischief?
Posted by: Text
QUOTE
Not sure who is more of a pig. Moeller for influencing WP with his bizarre views on "nonexploitive" child/adult sexual relations? Kohs for gratuitously dragging a named child into his obsessive vendetta? You for rekindling the matter for general mischief?
It's fun to see that your jimmies are rustled, and yet, Kira's jimmy remains unrustled.