|
|
|
World War II, The anti-US version |
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
When will Oberiko and his group stop? He's won just about every argument he's had, and still keeps going. He's got the article under constant semi-protection. He's deleted the American picture from the lead montage, and now there are 2 Soviet, 2 Commonwealth, and 2 Japanese. The Intro and infobox refuse to say that the war started in 1939, and the 1937/39 debate continues. The Intro and infobox don't list the major combatants The major commanders aren't listed anywhere in the article. (For fun, try to find "Eisenhower" or "Zhukov" anywhere on the page using Edit --> Find on this Page.) The entire article is written in Oberiko's weird wiki-summary style where the proper names of events are hidden within Wiki-links. See the Normandy Invasion coverage, in its entirety: QUOTE In June, 1944, the Western Allies invaded northern France And check my favorite passage: QUOTE The Soviets decided to make their stand at Stalingrad which was in the path of the advancing German armies and by mid-November the Germans had nearly taken Stalingrad in bitter street fighting when the Soviets began their second winter counter-offensive, starting with an encirclement of German forces at Stalingrad[94] and an assault on the Rzhev salient near Moscow, though the latter failed disastrously.[95 I've been following the article for years now, and seen people come and go but basically anyone who doesn't agree with Oberiko gets frustrated and leaves. He's not afraid to swing his administrator status and have people blocked who edit war with him or Parsecboy. I could go through line by line and point out not only anti-Western and anti-American bias, but also outright errors. Take the first line of the Background section: QUOTE In the aftermath of World War I, the defeated German Empire signed the Treaty of Versailles.[7] How does anyone not notice this for months and months? I've been watching it as an experiment to see if Wikipedians will ever get a clue, but, well, you see. Later in the background you'll find out that Germany's goal with Austria was to make it a "satellite state". Both of these statements are referenced too? Insult to injury: the Holocaust is described as "the systematic purging of Jews in Europe". Well I'm pretty sure English isn't Oberiko's first language, but then why doesn't anyone help him? Oh right, because it's so obvious that the article is Owned that you'd be an idiot to try to help. I know this breaks my rule of thumb not to help Wikipedia myself, but it is the number one search result and I'm feeling a bit of remorse just letting it fester, with it being around D-Day this week and having just recently talked to guy who was a B-29 pilot based in Saipan. I can't believe a generation of kids might be seeing their first encyclopedia article about WWII on Wikipedia. This post has been edited by Emperor:
|
|
|
|
ThurstonHowell3rd |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 280
Joined:
Member No.: 5,302
|
QUOTE(guy @ Tue 10th June 2008, 1:19pm) QUOTE(ThurstonHowell3rd @ Tue 10th June 2008, 8:43pm) This article does have a non-American POV, but I did not read anything that would be in my opinion be an error.
Calling the Holocaust "the systematic purging of Jews in Europe" is (to put it mildly) a grotesque error. I would contend calling these events a "the systematic purging of Jews in Europe" is a neutral POV, while calling them a Holocaust is POV. The discussion of the correct naming belongs in the Zionist-related debates thread.
|
|
|
|
Sarcasticidealist |
|
Head exploded.
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,662
Joined:
From: Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada
Member No.: 4,536
|
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Tue 10th June 2008, 12:12pm) Could you help me out here, as I know very little history after 1330 - what is wrong with that? Nothing that I can see, and I used to have a pretty strong amateur interest in all matters WWII. QUOTE(guy @ Tue 10th June 2008, 1:19pm) Saying the war started in 1937 is an error, not a POV. Were I to wish to be a dingus about this, I'd suggest that there's a POV that says that the 1937 Marco Polo Bridge incident and subsequent occupation of major Chinese cities by the Japanese was really the beginning of the war, and that it's only a western bias that waits until the European powers got involved. That said, according to the NPOV policy as currently written, the article should clearly have 1939 as the starting date.
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Tue 10th June 2008, 3:12pm) QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 10th June 2008, 5:51pm) QUOTE In the aftermath of World War I, the defeated German Empire signed the Treaty of Versailles.[7] How does anyone not notice this for months and months? Could you help me out here, as I know very little history after 1330 - what is wrong with that? The Kaiser abdicated and the German Empire ceased to exist in November 1918. The Treaty of Versailles was signed over six months later.
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(cyofee @ Tue 10th June 2008, 2:58pm) Boo hoo, America isn't mentioned enough. There are other countries, too. An encyclopedia article doesn't have to have OMG AMERICA WON THE WAR AND SAVED THE WORLD.
The points about the awkward language are true, though.
Thanks for that. Do you think that non-Americans are better off learning three times that there was fighting around Stalingrad, and that there was a "Rzhev salient" near Moscow, but never knowing that the largest amphibious invasion in history happened in Normandy? If you really do, then please, go edit the article and make it even more unreadable so people eventually learn to stay away from it and other Wikipedia articles. Google will either drop it from #1 search results or people will stop using Google.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Tue 10th June 2008, 9:48pm) QUOTE(ThurstonHowell3rd @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:43pm) This article does have a non-American POV, but I did not read anything that would be in my opinion be an error.
It was the Soviets who defeated the Germans. Before June, 1944 that vast majority of the allied forces fighting against Germany were from the Soviet Union and before the Allies opened up another front in Normandy in June, 1944 it was already certain that the Germans were going to be defeated.
Is it not equally obvious that had the war involved only Germany and Russia, leaving Germany access to world trade, that Russia would have been soundly defeated? The Russians get the credit for doing a large fraction of the fighting and most of the military dying in the European theater of WW II. But yes, if the Germans had captured Moscow and the oil fields, it would have been all over for the USSR, and with those oil fields, the Germans would have (temporarily) won the game of RISK. Until we atom bombed them sometime after August 1945, that is. But that was a wild joker nobody really knew would or could be played, until the previous month. As it was, the USSR came within a hair's breadth of losing it. And that's with massive Allied material aid, and a fair amount of Allied pin-down of German armies in Africa and Italy, which otherwise would have been decisive in the East. Much as in WW I, it really did take everybody to beat the Germans in "conventional" war. Unlike WW I, however, if everybody had not been able to win conventionally, the US still would have atom bombed the Germans into glowing embers, no matter how well they'd done, sometime in 1946. The Germans just could not reach the US with anything damaging, and would not have been able to, for some years. They had no aircraft carriers, and their plans for ultralong-range bombers were going to carry what? Nothing of consequence can be carried 3000 miles, except a nuke. But with an atom bomb, you can reach a long way and touch someone. If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have. This post has been edited by Milton Roe:
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 5:10pm) If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have.
The fire-bombing of Dresden was pretty awful, and as close to atomic weaponry as conventional bombs can be. I drove through there right after the wall fell, and it was still pretty much of a mess, as were the highways which didn't see repairs the entire 50 year period. QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Tue 10th June 2008, 9:48pm) Is it not equally obvious that had the war involved only Germany and Russia, leaving Germany access to world trade, that Russia would have been soundly defeated?
You mean if they were the only two countries in the world? Really, you cannot conjecture thus, or you have an entire new framework to add to ex post facto history. The US entry to the war was incredibly important. This was the frame of reference for the first 50 years after the war's end. If there are anti-American, or US-minimization elements on those articles, my guess is that they are twenty-somethings. There seems to be a sort of generational Euro-youth backlash against the pro-American gratitude of their parents. I've seen that myriad in the past 10 or so years.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Tue 10th June 2008, 10:29pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 5:10pm) If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have.
The fire-bombing of Dresden was pretty awful, and as close to atomic weaponry as conventional bombs can be. I drove through there right after the wall fell, and it was still pretty much of a mess, as were the highways which didn't see repairs the entire 50 year period. For sure, but in my alternate history, I'm assuming US is out, as was the premise. Germany doesn't declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor, so we don't enter the war in Europe (having no excuse). By the time we do, Germany has captured the USSR and subsequently invaded England (or starved it to death). Both events as it was coming within a month of happening, even with the US involved and sending supplies like crazy. So when it comes time to deal with Germany in 1946 we have no English base from which to mount an invason or firebomb cities (which takes hundreds of airplanes only flying a few hundred miles). Festung Europa really is that, without North Africa or England to launch from. Nobody creates firestorms from across the Atlantic, without nuclear weapons. Even firebombing Tokyo (which, was as bad as Dresden with twice the death toll) took 300 really big B29 planes from (as I remember) Saipan. Couldn't have done that from a carrier, nor from across an ocean. Nah, if you have no base, B-25s from carriers, with A-bombs, is about all you get.
|
|
|
|
Proabivouac |
|
Bane of all wikiland
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,246
Joined:
Member No.: 2,647
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:00am) For sure, but in my alternate history, I'm assuming US is out, as was the premise. Germany doesn't declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor, so we don't enter the war in Europe (having no excuse). By the time we do, Germany has captured the USSR and subsequently invaded England (or starved it to death). Both events as it was coming within a month of happening, even with the US involved and sending supplies like crazy.
There are several other plausible alternate histories. One is that England and France fail to declare war on Germany following the invasion of Poland - it wouldn't be the first time they'd backed down, and really not a bad move, as the war was a disaster for both empires, and of course France was eliminated nearly outright. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule. Another is that England and Germany make a deal following the fall of France, with German withdrawal from Norway, Belgium and France, excepting Alsace-Lorraine, and some kind of protectorate in Denmark and Holland, in exchange for favorable terms of trade within the British Empire - a completely sensible deal on its face which would have benefited all concerned. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:28am) There are several other plausible alternate histories. One is that England and France fail to declare war on Germany following the invasion of Poland - it wouldn't be the first time they'd backed down, and really not a bad move, as the war was a disaster for both empires, and of course France was eliminated nearly outright. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule.
I've got to read Pat Buchannan's Churchill, Hilter, and the Unnecessary War which has that premise. But I've no doubt Barbarosa would still have happened, even with France intact, and then the USSR would have been toast without Allied help. Would the Allies have sat that one out, too? But the Nazis really were evil, so we would have had to fight them eventually. WW II was necessary so long as Hitler was in power. Just a question of when. The longer we wait, the stronger he gets...
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:55pm) I've got to read Pat Buchannan's Churchill, Hilter, and the Unnecessary War which has that premise.
Oh Gawd. He wrote a book on that premise? (And you'd read it?) Why not save the money and... spend it on anything else QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:55pm) But I've no doubt Barbarosa would still have happened, even with France intact, and then the USSR would have been toast without Allied help. Would the Allies have sat that one out, too? But the Nazis really were evil, so we would have had to fight them eventually. WW II was necessary so long as Hitler was in power. Just a question of when. The longer we wait, the stronger he gets...
The US would have been dragged into the war eventually. Both of the major axis powers were on-the-move until they mopped it all up, or until someone stopped them. Eventually, England and France would have been attacked, Poland, or no Poland. From the German perspective, that war was all about overcoming the shame/stimga of signing the economy-crushing Treaty of Versailles (Keynes actually wrote a thesis one how German repayment of the financial obligations was impossible to complete without wiping out the national budget). I forget the exact circumstances, but when France capitulated to Germany after the WW2 invasion, signatory was in the same place, or the same pen, or something meaningful, as in "payback time." Poland was simply easy to attack, and the Germans considered it lost property, i.e. Prussia, as they also did the Sudetenland (then-Czechoslovakia), both of were populated with significant levels of ethnic German. Hitler 'picked off' the countries he could attack more easily, then swung at the big fish later. Recall that Russia was an ally for a while, then got attacked. If Axis-Germany had mowed the world down, and the US (etc) didn't exist, Axis-Germany would have taken out Japan in the end, in a horrific-bizarro-world situation. Axis-Germany had no allies, just temporary partners. (reminds me of some person... oh never mind)This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:
|
|
|
|
House of Cards |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 66
Joined:
From: Neither here nor there
Member No.: 6,114
|
Any articles involving Eastern European history are an absolute minefield. The Iron Curtain is still very much alive in the minds of many editors. For another example, have a look at the occasional shitfights that break out at the article on the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Here, editors from ex-Soviet states still stick to the near 50-year USSR doctrine that the Pact never existed and was a Western fabrication. But for the worst example of strawman racial drama that I have seen, see the "humourous" http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Poles_are_evil. The fact that it is on Meta and not on WP makes it totally independent from WP - at least, that's what some Polish editors say when the page is attacked after said editors refer to it as the ultimate defence against any objections (however slight) come their way.
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 1:44am) The death toll was substantially greater than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes. That doesn't get a lot of historical attention as it is somehow overshadowed by other events (Normandy, atom bombs, etc). I saw a documentary on it for the first time when living in Europe, and I thought I'd read tons on WW2 and seen tons of biopics when back in the US. I had no idea what the firebombing did there. Apparently anyone in some certain radius got fried. There was simply no place to hide. If you were in a bomb shelter underground, that wasn't safe. The only way to survive was to not be there, period. When I drove through there immediately post wall-came-down, the town was so undeveloped that there was only one hotel for like 400 dollars a night, and really nothing else in terms of small hotels. And the city was still a mess. I've been back and it's totally different. The post-unification German government poured millions into reconstruction in the past 10 years. QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:02am) Here, editors from ex-Soviet states still stick to the near 50-year USSR doctrine that the Pact never existed and was a Western fabrication.
Thats strange. I wonder what is the editor demographic of that ilk. I've never met an Eastern European who had that position. Maybe a Russian or two, but they were hooked in to the old appararichnik system by family (usually parents), and they were somehow obligated to speak so, and so arguing with them would have been almost rude. You know, those just-nod-and-smile-why-argue conversations. This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:
|
|
|
|
House of Cards |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 66
Joined:
From: Neither here nor there
Member No.: 6,114
|
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 9:08am) Yes. That doesn't get a lot of historical attention as it is somehow overshadowed by other events (Normandy, atom bombs, etc). I saw a documentary on it for the first time when living in Europe, and I thought I'd read tons on WW2 and seen tons of biopics when back in the US. I had no idea what the firebombing did there. Apparently anyone in some certain radius got fried. There was simply no place to hide. If you were in a bomb shelter underground, that wasn't safe. The only way to survive was to not be there, period. A major reason why there is little attention to this in the Allied countries is because it was a deliberate attack on a civilian population, and widespread recognition of that would sully the idea that our side was always fighting the good fight. QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 9:08am) Thats strange. I wonder what is the editor demographic of that ilk. I've never met an Eastern European who had that position. Maybe a Russian or two, but they were hooked in to the old appararichnik system by family (usually parents), and they were somehow obligated to speak so, and so arguing with them would have been almost rude. You know, those just-nod-and-smile-why-argue conversations. Don't get me wrong. Not all Eastern European editors are like that. But you know how it is with WP: those who yell the loudest tend to outlast all the sensible editors, especially when under the protective wing of an admin or two.
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:19am) A major reason why there is little attention to this in the Allied countries is because it was a deliberate attack on a civilian population, and widespread recognition of that would sully the idea that our side was always fighting the good fight.
Yes, but by that metric, Hiroshima and Nagasaki should also be unmentionables. I had the impression that at that point, strategic attacks such as the three aforementioned were not politically-incorrect, given the vast desire to end the war. Or.... if that's true, then why were N and H ok, but D not? QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:19am) Don't get me wrong. Not all Eastern European editors are like that. But you know how it is with WP: those who yell the loudest tend to outlast all the sensible editors, especially when under the protective wing of an admin or two.
That and the "all the whackjobs tend to gravitate to the internet because they have no social skills (friends, family, etc)" theory mesh nicely. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)
|
|
|
|
Herschelkrustofsky |
|
Member
Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130
|
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:08am) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 1:44am) The death toll was substantially greater than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes. That doesn't get a lot of historical attention as it is somehow overshadowed by other events (Normandy, atom bombs, etc). I saw a documentary on it for the first time when living in Europe, and I thought I'd read tons on WW2 and seen tons of biopics when back in the US. I had no idea what the firebombing did there. Apparently anyone in some certain radius got fried. There was simply no place to hide. If you were in a bomb shelter underground, that wasn't safe. The only way to survive was to not be there, period. The most horrifying feature was that Dresden had no military significance. The bombing was carried out as a macabre experiment in psychological warfare, by the Strategic Bombing Survey (see this article.)QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:24am) QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:19am) A major reason why there is little attention to this in the Allied countries is because it was a deliberate attack on a civilian population, and widespread recognition of that would sully the idea that our side was always fighting the good fight.
Yes, but by that metric, Hiroshima and Nagasaki should also be unmentionables. I had the impression that at that point, strategic attacks such as the three aforementioned were not politically-incorrect, given the vast desire to end the war. Or.... if that's true, then why were N and H ok, but D not? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not "OK," either. The emperor of Japan had already made a back-channel offer of surrender, under the same terms that were later agreed to on the USS Missouri. His overture was rebuffed, because a faction in the civilian leadership of the US was eager to try out atomic weapons, on civilian targets, in order to create a certain psychological effect on the rest of the world.
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
Oh.
This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:
|
|
|
|
dogbiscuit |
|
Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined:
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015
|
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 8:30am) QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:08am) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 1:44am) The death toll was substantially greater than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes. That doesn't get a lot of historical attention as it is somehow overshadowed by other events (Normandy, atom bombs, etc). I saw a documentary on it for the first time when living in Europe, and I thought I'd read tons on WW2 and seen tons of biopics when back in the US. I had no idea what the firebombing did there. Apparently anyone in some certain radius got fried. There was simply no place to hide. If you were in a bomb shelter underground, that wasn't safe. The only way to survive was to not be there, period. The most horrifying feature was that Dresden had no military significance. The bombing was carried out as a macabre experiment in psychological warfare, by the Strategic Bombing Survey (see this article.)QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:24am) QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:19am) A major reason why there is little attention to this in the Allied countries is because it was a deliberate attack on a civilian population, and widespread recognition of that would sully the idea that our side was always fighting the good fight.
Yes, but by that metric, Hiroshima and Nagasaki should also be unmentionables. I had the impression that at that point, strategic attacks such as the three aforementioned were not politically-incorrect, given the vast desire to end the war. Or.... if that's true, then why were N and H ok, but D not? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not "OK," either. The emperor of Japan had already made a back-channel offer of surrender, under the same terms that were later agreed to on the USS Missouri. His overture was rebuffed, because a faction in the civilian leadership of the US was eager to try out atomic weapons, on civilian targets, in order to create a certain psychological effect on the rest of the world. I'm sure I have heard it suggested (is that vague enough sourcing?!) that one of Hitler's biggest errors was the switch to the wide-scale bombing of Britain, which freed Churchill from any ethical concerns he had. My father was in Burma*, and after a long wait in India and a bout of malaria as well, eventually went into action against the Japanese. The next stop was Malaya and they were due to land on the beaches a few days after The Bomb was dropped. He is certain, having seen the sandy beaches with trees lining the shore, that it would have been an unsurvivable experience for most. He therefore believes that the dropping of the bomb, even if it only shortened the war by a few days, saved his life and those of his comrades. He landed those few days later as a member of an occupying force. *As it was known then (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)
|
|
|
|
thekohser |
|
Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined:
Member No.: 911
|
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 3:30am) The most horrifying feature was that Dresden had no military significance. The bombing was carried out as a macabre experiment in psychological warfare, by the Strategic Bombing Survey (see this article.)Sorry, I stopped reading that article when I saw this: "hit the nation 's that might sponsor them". What motivates writers to put in a possessive apostrophe when they simply mean to construct a plural noun? Not so fast on Dresden. It all depends on what you consider "military significance". That is disputed. I'm not trying to gloss over the human disgraces that took place at Allied hands during World War II -- quite the contrary. But it is also worth considering that some portion of the Dresden story is based on a heap of post-war mythology. That being said, my undergraduate honors thesis on the broader subject is available for reading if you're ever in the stacks at Woodruff Library at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. ( U4.5 .K65) Maybe you can get it through inter-library loan. It's only "magna" cum laude quality, though. Don't knock yourself out.
|
|
|
|
House of Cards |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 66
Joined:
From: Neither here nor there
Member No.: 6,114
|
QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 2:34pm) Not so fast on Dresden. It all depends on what you consider "military significance". That is disputed. I'm not trying to gloss over the human disgraces that took place at Allied hands during World War II -- quite the contrary. But it is also worth considering that some portion of the Dresden story is based on a heap of post-war mythology. All cities almost everywhere during the war had some military significance. It's a question of proportion. From that link: He also notes that Dresden was a hotbed of Nazi sympathy and anti-Semitism. Is that really a good enough excuse to firebomb it? Going only from that article, the whole thing sounds too apologetic to me. There is some post-war mythology involved, for sure. But don't forget that some of it comes from the Allied side, who excuse Dresden with "well, they deserved it"
|
|
|
|
Herschelkrustofsky |
|
Member
Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130
|
QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 5:34am) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 3:30am) The most horrifying feature was that Dresden had no military significance. The bombing was carried out as a macabre experiment in psychological warfare, by the Strategic Bombing Survey (see this article.)Sorry, I stopped reading that article when I saw this: "hit the nation 's that might sponsor them". What motivates writers to put in a possessive apostrophe when they simply mean to construct a plural noun? I agree, that sucks. The original article is not available on the web -- the site to which I linked is someone's hasty transcription. I found a more grammatically acceptable transcription of the article on other sites that were unfortunately too wacky and conspirophilic for my liking. QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 6:17am) I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This is the common rationalization, and it is utter fraudulent, because no amphibious invasion was necessary. Japan was blockaded tighter than a drum -- all the allies had to do was wait as Japan ran out of supplies. However, waiting was also unnecessary, because the offer of surrender had already been made. Here is another article that is germane to the topic, this time with good grammar.
|
|
|
|
House of Cards |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 66
Joined:
From: Neither here nor there
Member No.: 6,114
|
QUOTE(Rootology @ Wed 11th June 2008, 5:40pm) QUOTE(House of Cards @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:38am) As an interesting note, the US Veterans Association a few years ago managed to stop the Smithsonian from presenting an exhibition on the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, for fear that displaying the true carnage that was unleashed by the bombings would sully their good name. I haven't looked at the WP article on the bombings, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar movements were afoot there too.
Do you have an article on this? I'd be horrified if a group tried to do such a thing--I'd never heard of this (the Smithsonian incident, nothing on WP) Here's a few links (the exhibition wasn't completely stopped, but massively whitewashed) This is not the only time that the Smithsonian has crumbled under pressure. The same happened when they were preparing an exhibition discussing climate change, for example.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 3:09pm) QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 6:17am) I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This is the common rationalization, and it is utter fraudulent, because no amphibious invasion was necessary. Japan was blockaded tighter than a drum -- all the allies had to do was wait as Japan ran out of supplies. However, waiting was also unnecessary, because the offer of surrender had already been made. Here is another article that is germane to the topic, this time with good grammar. There is a pretty good Wikipedia article on all this, BTW, called Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The short answer is that starving Japan to death was not very tennable while they held thousands of US prisoners (if you think they'd have starved, while feeding prisoners-- you have the wrong guys in mind). Japan also was in control of hundreds of thousands of what were essentially slave laborers in various terrritories they still controlled: were we to go around all these, one-by-one, and take them against suicidical defenses, while each of the others starved? Perhaps atomic bombing per se was not necessary-- we could have simply continued to firebomb Japan to nothing, just as effectively. But the difference is being burned to death slowly or more quickly, or else just as fast. There are a few effects of radiation that are unique, but none of them are particularly more horrible than other effects of war. Being one of the the thousands of Chinese woman in Nanking who had a Japanese soldier thrust a bamboo stake into your vagina (a standard procedure) must have been unique also, if you survived it. But how do you compare one type of unique post-war injury with another? One more thing needs to be noted. I happen to believe that since empathy is distance-dependent, that there's a difference between somebody who kills an infant child with a bomb, far away, at the press of a button, and a man who bayonets an infant like a pillow, up close and personal. The reason is that more human inhibitions need be overcome, in the second case (even hungry housecats and wolves will stand by while their young eat-- and not only their own personal young; calling the Japanese soldiers "animals" in such circumstances is an insult to many animals). The Japanese attrocities of WW II have far more of the second-case character, if you know anything of their treatment of the Chinese, and their live-human bio-warfare and munitions experiments, using prisoners (which outclassed in scale, and equaled in inhumanity, anything Mengele ever did). So what does one do in the face of that? By all means, let us have an exhibition of atomic bombings and aftermath. But some % of the exhibit needs to be devoted to putting them into context, without which they are meaningless. For example, along with your photos of radiation burned civilians, keep in mind this image of a Japanese soldier about to decapitate a captured Austalian prisoner of war, just for the hell of it. (IMG: http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/allies-bomb-northern-nazi-germany-48.jpg) This post has been edited by Milton Roe:
|
|
|
|
Herschelkrustofsky |
|
Member
Group: Members
Posts: 5,199
Joined:
From: Kalifornia
Member No.: 130
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 12th June 2008, 12:19pm) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 11th June 2008, 3:09pm) QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 6:17am) I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This is the common rationalization, and it is utter fraudulent, because no amphibious invasion was necessary. Japan was blockaded tighter than a drum -- all the allies had to do was wait as Japan ran out of supplies. However, waiting was also unnecessary, because the offer of surrender had already been made. Here is another article that is germane to the topic, this time with good grammar. The short answer is that starving Japan to death was not very tennable while they held thousands of US prisoners Well, as I mentioned, this point is moot, because the offer of surrender had already been made. QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 12th June 2008, 12:19pm) Perhaps atomic bombing per se was not necessary-- we could have simply continued to firebomb Japan to nothing, just as effectively.
Military leaders proposed dropping a nuke on an uninhabited island, and inviting Japanese leaders to observe, as a "warning shot." But civilian leaders, who wanted to deliver a traumatic psychological shock to the entire planet, insisted that the bombs be dropped on civilians.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 12th June 2008, 9:13pm) Well, as I mentioned, this point is moot, because the offer of surrender had already been made.
Well, as I didn't mention, that offer had too many conditionals in it for the US to accept. The US had publically committed on Dec. 8, 1941 to an unconditional surrender. Keeping one's word publically in ONE war helps to prevent the NEXT war. Those people who claim that the US ended up accepting basically the same offer, are just wrong. The US accepted an offer whereby surrender was unconditional, but it was understood (under the table) that the Emperor would be allowed to retain title and role at total U.S. sufference. What the Japanese had offered was that this would be a matter of negociated treaty. Just a matter of face-saving, you say? Yes, but an important matter for those who were willing to start and end wars themselves over such quibbles. It was felt as necessary to break Japan psychologically as physically. Else, where is the guarantee they won't decide they the right to do it again? QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 12th June 2008, 12:19pm) Perhaps atomic bombing per se was not necessary-- we could have simply continued to firebomb Japan to nothing, just as effectively. QUOTE Military leaders proposed dropping a nuke on an uninhabited island, and inviting Japanese leaders to observe, as a "warning shot." But civilian leaders, who wanted to deliver a traumatic psychological shock to the entire planet, insisted that the bombs be dropped on civilians. Hmmm, due to practical considerations, there was never much of a real push for a demo-bomb by anybody, much less generalized "military leaders." Gen. LeMay, who was in charge of the bombing, was gungho for the atom bomb. But of course it wasn't up to him. The Targetting Committee considered various options but the real problem is how do you demo an atom bomb? You can blow up all the islands you like, but until you blow up a city, there's no demoing what it will do to a city. A flash and a bang are all you get, otherwise. The other big problem with a demo bomb is what happens if you set it up to demo it, and it doesn't work? They'd only tested one plutonium bomb, and only had enough plutonium for one more (the demo) and more would not show up for a few more weeks. So this would mean 3 weeks' delay. They'd never tested the uranium bomb and would never have enough uranium for another one, so that was out as a demo. So that causes a problem. The people at the time thought under the circumstances, and with not a lot of confidence, it was best to drop things without warning, and if they don't work, say nothing about that little smoke-poof in the sky, and that tiny bit of radiation that shows up later. As for civilian vs. military targets, there weren't any isolated military targets worthy of a bomb left in the Japanese empire, in late 1945. The Nagasaki bomb did take out the torpedo works which had produced the bombs which struck the ships at Pearl Harbor. And there was a troop garrison destroyed in Hiroshima, right at the hypocenter. But the Japanese had mixed military and civilian production together most carefully. Had they deliberately separated it, those who didn't follow the line would have been more culpable. They chose not to. Their problem. You don't use your own civilians as live-hostages, then complain that they're collateral damage. One option that NOBODY thought of at the time (it's mine, he said modestly (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif) ), but which would have given everybody what they wanted, is that the bomb could have been fully demoed by dropping it at the waterline of a harbor, thereby taking out a half-circle. This would have provided full demo (since the Japanese were fully capable of multiplying by two) at the same time as halving the casualties. But as I say, I can't say that this was rejected, because it just was never brought up. Even Oppenheimer, who was on the targetting committee (and who did recommend the bomb be used on on a city), didn't think of doing it this way. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif) That said, Hiroshima served as a demo, did it not? The Japanese still said "no," even then. So as it turns out, any lesser demo would have been totally wasted. This post has been edited by Milton Roe:
|
|
|
|
Pumpkin Muffins |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 656
Joined:
Member No.: 3,972
|
QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 6:17am) QUOTE(Neil @ Wed 11th June 2008, 9:04am) As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?
There was a lot of revenge and moral justification happening during WW2. I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All of it was sad and certainly needless, as over 60 years of peace and alliance between the US and Japan since have proven. Greg, don't be an idiot. That's what humans do; they form groups and kill each other to take their stuff. It's the history of the human race. And if anyone thinks humans are different and past all that now, then they are double idiots.
|
|
|
|
everyking |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,368
Joined:
Member No.: 81
|
QUOTE(Pumpkin Muffins @ Fri 13th June 2008, 2:05am) QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 11th June 2008, 6:17am) QUOTE(Neil @ Wed 11th June 2008, 9:04am) As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in return for Coventry, which was both revenge and as a moral boost for the British people, and b] as a demonstration of power?
There was a lot of revenge and moral justification happening during WW2. I should also add that, based on the military and civilian death tolls on Okinawa (the Japanese lost 90,000 troops on an island only 460 square miles in area), the U.S. estimates for Japanese home island casualties (were the war brought to a conclusion through traditional amphibious invasion (Operation DOWNFALL)) numbered at least in the several millions. Certainly far fewer died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All of it was sad and certainly needless, as over 60 years of peace and alliance between the US and Japan since have proven. Greg, don't be an idiot. That's what humans do; they form groups and kill each other to take their stuff. It's the history of the human race. And if anyone thinks humans are different and past all that now, then they are double idiots. That's what humans do under certain conditions. Changed conditions mean changed behavior. Despite being particularly vulnerable due to being a double idiot, I've never had anyone try to kill me to take my stuff. As a tendency, it appears to be diminishing.
|
|
|
|
The Joy |
|
I am a millipede! I am amazing!
Group: Members
Posts: 3,839
Joined:
From: The Moon
Member No.: 982
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Fri 13th June 2008, 12:13am) Since everyone is sharing, had I been Truman I would have ordered both bombings at exactly the same times in exactly the same way. His reasons have been more than adequately explained. Some people just don't want to listen to them.
Now why is it that Wikipedia can't keep the revisionists from continually pooping all over its articles?
The "revisionists" or fringe theorists have no other platform except Wikipedia. It's the only place where their views will be heard and be taken seriously... and that is no compliment to Wikipedia. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif) Point of order: All historians are "revisionist" to some degree. If they kept repeating things already said over and over again, there would be no new PhDs or theses being earned. But all academics have to answer for their theses or ideas by the public and other academics, while Wikipedians do not have to answer to anybody. If they have enough social support and social currency via the WP Community, they'll survive any argument against their fringe ideas and live to carry on their agenda on WP another day. In fact, I remember when Lir was here, he told us a story about his professor rejecting his thesis because Wikipedia had a different take on Operation Torch (the American landings in Africa during WWII). Poor Lir, poor academia. Despite the disclaimers, people just take WP's information as true and never bother considering that it could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
everyking |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,368
Joined:
Member No.: 81
|
QUOTE(Pumpkin Muffins @ Fri 13th June 2008, 6:18am) QUOTE(everyking @ Thu 12th June 2008, 7:14pm)
That's what humans do under certain conditions. Changed conditions mean changed behavior. Despite being particularly vulnerable due to being a double idiot, I've never had anyone try to kill me to take my stuff. As a tendency, it appears to be diminishing.
Maybe it's been the other way around for you; maybe your standard of living is based, in part, on cheap raw materials flowing our way that was secured through warfare, or the threat of force. The Pax Americana hasn't been without bloodshed, it's just a calm in the storm. A few generations of peace is all any large civilization seems to be able to handle. Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are all that are keeping us from having world peace right now. Progress and cooperation are far more fundamental to the human condition than warfare. Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do".
|
|
|
|
Pumpkin Muffins |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 656
Joined:
Member No.: 3,972
|
QUOTE(everyking @ Thu 12th June 2008, 11:02pm) QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 13th June 2008, 6:56am) A false dichotomy: cooperation with and generosity towards one's own kin - in primitivity this is equivalent to an ethnic group, plus whichever other groups, if any, with whom one trades wives - and hostility towards everyone else is the norm.
I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that is the "natural" state of mankind? We used to rub sticks together to make fire, too, but as time passes we figure out better ways of doing things. Yes, and we've figured out better ways of killing each other (tell me that's not true!), and we've figured out better ways of stealing (enron, for example)... QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Thu 12th June 2008, 10:56pm) QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 13th June 2008, 5:44am) Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are all that are keeping us from having world peace right now. Progress and cooperation are far more fundamental to the human condition than warfare. Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do".
A false dichotomy: cooperation with and generosity towards one's own kin - in primitivity this is equivalent to an ethnic group, plus whichever other groups, if any, with whom one trades wives - and hostility towards everyone else is the norm. I have to agree with this. And I believe that any groups of people that live among each other but forbid intermarriage eventually end up trying to kill each other - Palestine/Israeli, Irish Catholics/Protestants, Hutu/Tutsi, American Blacks/Whites (until recently). It's just the way we're wired. This post has been edited by Pumpkin Muffins:
|
|
|
|
Proabivouac |
|
Bane of all wikiland
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,246
Joined:
Member No.: 2,647
|
QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 13th June 2008, 6:02am) I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that is the "natural" state of mankind? We used to rub sticks together to make fire, too, but as time passes we figure out better ways of doing things.
And how does this work? Through the development of ideology and a specialist class of propagandists to promulgate it, the development of law and a specialist class of its enforcers who, let's not forget, use violence to ensure that others don't - without their permission, that is. This is not people becoming more peaceful, but the imposition of hegemony. One indispensable element of these systems is the appropriation of surplus wealth through the threat of force - taxation. Basically a protection racket. Today, the propagation of ideology consumes a greater portion of production than ever. This is because the things people are supposed to do are further and further from what we will naturally do. The length of childhood has been doubled, for example. The state pours vast resources in order to ensure that children are socialized to do various things - sit in chairs for long periods of time, staring at and interpreting symbols, for example. And not hitting one another. Even so, people still resort to violence, because neither the inculcation of propaganda nor the power of the state is total. Take the police away for a year - how would society change? Actually, we know the answer - small local groups form in the manner of street gangs, protecting one another and behaving hostilely towards outsiders… …and we're back to normal.
|
|
|
|
Moulton |
|
Anthropologist from Mars
Group: Contributors
Posts: 10,222
Joined:
From: Greater Boston
Member No.: 3,670
|
QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 13th June 2008, 1:44am) Every human being should be insulted at the notion that killing and pillage is just "what humans do". Homo Politicus has been killing off his fellow adversaries and enemies at the rate of about 2 million violent deaths per year since the beginning of the 20th Century. Note, by comparison, that the Holocaust claimed 6 million lives in 3 years. In other words an unabated distributed Holocaust has been underway on Planet Earth for the past hundred years. QUOTE(Pumpkin Muffins @ Fri 13th June 2008, 2:15am) It's just the way we're wired. It's the way Homo Politicus is wired. Homo Scientificus and Homo Ludens are wired differently.
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(The Joy @ Fri 13th June 2008, 12:18am) The "revisionists" or fringe theorists have no other platform except Wikipedia. It's the only place where their views will be heard and be taken seriously... and that is no compliment to Wikipedia. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif) Point of order: All historians are "revisionist" to some degree. If they kept repeating things already said over and over again, there would be no new PhDs or theses being earned. But all academics have to answer for their theses or ideas by the public and other academics, while Wikipedians do not have to answer to anybody. If they have enough social support and social currency via the WP Community, they'll survive any argument against their fringe ideas and live to carry on their agenda on WP another day. Yes they have to keep themselves in business, I suppose. Still, I'd have more respect for the great thinkers on Wikipedia if they caught doozies like this one: QUOTE( Wikipedia "World War I") Berlin was almost 900 miles (1,400 km) from the Western Front; no Allied soldier had ever set foot on German soil in anger, and the Kaiser's armies retreated from the battlefield in good order. Thus many Germans, including Adolf Hitler, were convinced their armies had not really been defeated. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=218411348 (bold emphasis is mine) For those unfamiliar with WWI, angry Allied soldiers actually did invade parts of Germany during the war. Of course it's easier to obsess about Allied bombings and to social network and so forth, rather than correct factual errors.
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Fri 13th June 2008, 11:41pm) QUOTE( Wikipedia "World War I") Berlin was almost 900 miles (1,400 km) from the Western Front; no Allied soldier had ever set foot on German soil in anger, and the Kaiser's armies retreated from the battlefield in good order. Thus many Germans, including Adolf Hitler, were convinced their armies had not really been defeated. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=218411348 (bold emphasis is mine) For those unfamiliar with WWI, angry Allied soldiers actually did invade parts of Germany during the war. Of course it's easier to obsess about Allied bombings and to social network and so forth, rather than correct factual errors. Got the point about the misstatement of fact, but.... What's with the "anger" comment? Since when and where and how is soldier-mood-reading a part of war history? This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Sat 14th June 2008, 1:17pm) What's with the "anger" comment? Since when and where and how is soldier-mood-reading a part of war history?
Their words, not mine. By they way, Wikipedians are really rough on Groener. See also: Ebert-Groener Pact. QUOTE Groener, who was second-in-command of the German Army and who had known Ebert from the soldier's days in charge of war production, contacted the socialist leader that evening. The two men concluded the so-called Ebert-Groener pact, which was to remain secret for a number of years. For his part of the pact, Ebert agreed to suppress the Bolshevik-led revolution and maintain the defeated Army's role as one of the pillars of the German state; Groener in turn agreed to throw the weight of the still-considerable Army behind the new government. For this act, Groener earned the enmity of much of the military leadership, much of whom sought the retention of the monarchy. If my memory serves, Kaiser Wilhelm actually travelled to meet with a group of "military leadership" to see if he had any support. They had their chance to seek the retention of the monarchy, but no one spoke up. Groener must be a Nazi scapegoat or something.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 21st February 2009, 4:20pm) QUOTE(Wikipedia) In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechoslovakia... sourceThat's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate.
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 6:51pm) That's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate. "invaded the rump"? Come on!
|
|
|
|
Bottled_Spider |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 533
Joined:
From: Pictland
Member No.: 9,708
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 11:51pm) England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. Ahem. That's "Britain". Or the "UK". Or even the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" for those who love to type. {Sniff}. QUOTE(Emperor @ Sun 22nd February 2009, 12:04am) "invaded the rump"? Come on! No no no. You're being selective in your quoting. That's " Germany invaded the rump of Czechoslovakia". See WWII rump states. Yes, "rump" is an immensely funny word, but dirty people see dirty things, I'm told.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 21st February 2009, 5:04pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 6:51pm) That's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate. "invaded the rump"? Come on! I advise you never to go looking for history on England's Rump Parliament. Your vulgar head will explode also. And since this was 17th century and pre-Queen Anne, it really was just the parliament of "England" then. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) "This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England."
|
|
|
|
LessHorrid vanU |
|
Devils Advocaat
Group: Regulars
Posts: 836
Joined:
Member No.: 3,466
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 11:51pm) QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 21st February 2009, 4:20pm) QUOTE(Wikipedia) In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechoslovakia... sourceThat's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate. ( LHvU underlining.) Great Britain (as it was then) went onto a war footing upon the Czech invasion, see the production figures for the Hawker Hurrican - started in October 1937, 500 planes built by start of September 1939 (remembering they were building Spitfires, Defiants, Wellingtons, Battles, Blenheims, and a few other types at the same time), the navy was being refitted and keels laid down, and the army was being re-equipped. France attempted to do the same, but their more fractured infrastructure meant they were not as effective in getting new equipment into production (the Dewoitine D.520 was a contemporary of the Spitfire and 109E in performance more than the Hurri was). War within Europe was inevitable because the French were not going to tolerate an emergent Germany on the mainland, and Britain didn't need another naval power (along with France and the US) in the North Atlantic. The Poland ultimatium might be considered a gambit by the British/French to hold off the declaration of war by which time their respective industries would have been producing in quantity the quality materials needed to negate German weaponary (Germany didn't go into war production mode until 1940, when it was realised that Britain was going to stay in, and might have had difficulty compensating for losses against a resilient French military backed by Great Britain with its factories not threatened by an enemy off its southern coast.) Hitler likely gambled that the ultimatium could be called in the short term because he was aware that his borders to the west would remain secure, but waiting would have placed the allies in a position to build up resources sufficiently to turn defensive strategy into offensive. It has to be remembered that France had fallen, the Italians had entered on the side of Germany, North Africa was a theatre of war, the Norwegian campaigns had ended, the Battle of Britain won, and invasion of Russia by the Axis being put into action before the Japanese started their attacks - a delay by Hitler in invading Poland would have placed Britain and France in a far stronger position within Europe. Um, that is my on the fly take on the situation anyway.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sun 22nd February 2009, 3:01pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 11:51pm) QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 21st February 2009, 4:20pm) QUOTE(Wikipedia) In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechoslovakia... sourceThat's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate. ( LHvU underlining.) Great Britain (as it was then) went onto a war footing upon the Czech invasion, see the production figures for the Hawker Hurrican - started in October 1937, 500 planes built by start of September 1939 (remembering they were building Spitfires, Defiants, Wellingtons, Battles, Blenheims, and a few other types at the same time), the navy was being refitted and keels laid down, and the army was being re-equipped. France attempted to do the same, but their more fractured infrastructure meant they were not as effective in getting new equipment into production (the Dewoitine D.520 was a contemporary of the Spitfire and 109E in performance more than the Hurri was). War within Europe was inevitable because the French were not going to tolerate an emergent Germany on the mainland, and Britain didn't need another naval power (along with France and the US) in the North Atlantic. Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that Great Britain sat around paralyzed. They certainly went on more of a war footing after the rest of Czechoslovakia went down. But the curious thing to me is that the Chamberlain government didn't fall in March 1939, or even in September 1939. Despite that fact that Chamberlain and the Munich pact had made it perfectly clear that it was predicated on the Nazis leaving the rest of the country alone, and Churchill's prediction that they wouldn't (which nobody listened to). Even more incredibly, when Great Britain gave Germany the final ultimatum about Poland, the Chamberlain government didn't fall even after Hitler broke THAT, and war had to be declared. That's rather what I mean about reality not sinking in. You don't go to war with the same people whose bad judgement led you into it unprepared. It took Great Britain until the (essential) loss of France, and the scramble and miracle/disaster at Dunkirk, to finally figure that out. That was a year late.
|
|
|
|
LessHorrid vanU |
|
Devils Advocaat
Group: Regulars
Posts: 836
Joined:
Member No.: 3,466
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 7:05pm) QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sun 22nd February 2009, 3:01pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Sat 21st February 2009, 11:51pm) QUOTE(Emperor @ Sat 21st February 2009, 4:20pm) QUOTE(Wikipedia) In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechoslovakia... sourceThat's the way I remember it. "Rump" meaning what was leftover, after the Sudetenland was annexed in Oct. 1938 under the Sept. 1938 Munich Agreement "Peace in our time" thing. When Germany took the rest the next Spring, a little-mentioned event in history, the cards for WW II were on the table. England knew for sure from that date it would inevitably be war with the breaking of the agreement, but no war was declared at the time for England simply couldn't believe events, and wasn't ready. It took 6 months for reality to sink in, so that with the invasion of Poland, reaction was immediate. ( LHvU underlining.) Great Britain (as it was then) went onto a war footing upon the Czech invasion, see the production figures for the Hawker Hurrican - started in October 1937, 500 planes built by start of September 1939 (remembering they were building Spitfires, Defiants, Wellingtons, Battles, Blenheims, and a few other types at the same time), the navy was being refitted and keels laid down, and the army was being re-equipped. France attempted to do the same, but their more fractured infrastructure meant they were not as effective in getting new equipment into production (the Dewoitine D.520 was a contemporary of the Spitfire and 109E in performance more than the Hurri was). War within Europe was inevitable because the French were not going to tolerate an emergent Germany on the mainland, and Britain didn't need another naval power (along with France and the US) in the North Atlantic. Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that Great Britain sat around paralyzed. They certainly went on more of a war footing after the rest of Czechoslovakia went down. But the curious thing to me is that the Chamberlain government didn't fall in March 1939, or even in September 1939. Despite that fact that Chamberlain and the Munich pact had made it perfectly clear that it was predicated on the Nazis leaving the rest of the country alone, and Churchill's prediction that they wouldn't (which nobody listened to). Even more incredibly, when Great Britain gave Germany the final ultimatum about Poland, the Chamberlain government didn't fall even after Hitler broke THAT, and war had to be declared. That's rather what I mean about reality not sinking in. You don't go to war with the same people whose bad judgement led you into it unprepared. It took Great Britain until the (essential) loss of France, and the scramble and miracle/disaster at Dunkirk, to finally figure that out. That was a year late. Winston was not liked in his own party let alone parliament, and I believe the French were not keen on the imperialist gentleman either. It was only when there was no "civilised" alternative did he get the nod - and a fantastic job he did, too. However, he lost the immediate election after the war as well. Chamberlain was liked within his party, Parliament and the population - it was realised that Hitler had abused the trust he was given. Chamberlain was ever the realist and stepped down for the better war leader (of a nationalist coalition - not Conservative - government). To Emperor - that is how the nation styled itself in those days, when not referring to itself as an Empire.
|
|
|
|
dogbiscuit |
|
Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined:
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015
|
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 8:49pm) Winston was not liked in his own party let alone parliament, and I believe the French were not keen on the imperialist gentleman either. It was only when there was no "civilised" alternative did he get the nod - and a fantastic job he did, too. However, he lost the immediate election after the war as well. Chamberlain was liked within his party, Parliament and the population - it was realised that Hitler had abused the trust he was given. Chamberlain was ever the realist and stepped down for the better war leader (of a nationalist coalition - not Conservative - government).
To Emperor - that is how the nation styled itself in those days, when not referring to itself as an Empire.
For an eye opener, go to his bunker in London from which he ran the war seemingly from his bed. He had breakfast in bed, afternoon naps, but it seems he did know a thing or two about fighting a world war. Hopelessly out of touch for peacetime as far as my skimpy knowledge of modern British history allows me to believe.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 8:49pm) Winston was not liked in his own party let alone parliament, and I believe the French were not keen on the imperialist gentleman either. It was only when there was no "civilised" alternative did he get the nod - and a fantastic job he did, too. However, he lost the immediate election after the war as well. Chamberlain was liked within his party, Parliament and the population - it was realised that Hitler had abused the trust he was given. Chamberlain was ever the realist and stepped down for the better war leader (of a nationalist coalition - not Conservative - government).
More than that. The guy was only 6 months away from dying of colon cancer, so he can't have been feeling too well, whether he knew anything was formally wrong with him at the time, or not. Life is not fair. Winston's son Randolf, an alcoholic that nobody liked, also had a colon tumor, but when it was removed it was found not to be cancer. Somebody said: "What a shame they have cut out the only part of Randolf which is NOT malignant." In Chamberlain's case, as you say, everybody liked the man. His problem was that he was so sweet he apparently could not recognize evil when it stared him in the face. Winston Churchill had no difficulty recognizing evil immediately in Hitler. Or Stalin. I don't think this was particularly due to any evil in Winston's character-- rather his deep knowledge of history. QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 3:47pm) For an eye opener, go to his bunker in London from which he ran the war seemingly from his bed. He had breakfast in bed, afternoon naps, but it seems he did know a thing or two about fighting a world war. Hopelessly out of touch for peacetime as far as my skimpy knowledge of modern British history allows me to believe.
Winston was an awful Chancellor of the Exchequer, and during his second term as PM late in life, he was getting pretty old and worn out. But otherwise, everybody needs somebody to run its defense dept even in peacetime, and Great Britain kept Churchill out for many years, even though they needed him pretty much all the time he was an MP. That was dumb. He got blamed for Galipoli in WW I, which wasn't really his fault (had the plan been executed by people as physically fearless as Churchill, it would have worked brilliantly. But they hesitated due to fear of mines long enough to let the Turks get in place, and then got slaughtered). Yes, Winston often ran things from his bed, often with a liberal amount of alcohol to keep him out of withdrawal (as I read it!). But wars at the top are won by tactical thinking and it hardly matters where a person does that. Nor did historical wisdom in those times need be on display anywhere but in what a man wrote. And occasionally said on the radio (but Winston even had a reader for THAT, when he got too busy).
|
|
|
|
Floydsvoid |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 91
Joined:
Member No.: 4,216
|
This is neither here nor there. I've grown quite fond of history over the last few years but eschew more traditional sources. Regarding the invasion of Poland, I found this to be a fascinating read. And wonderfully contrasted with his wife's memoirs.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 8:11pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 7:28pm) He got blamed for Galipoli in WW I, which wasn't really his fault (had the plan been executed by people as physically fearless as Churchill, it would have worked brilliantly. But they hesitated due to fear of mines long enough to let the Turks get in place, and then got slaughtered).
It really was a great idea. Even if it was a long shot, it had the potential to save millions of lives. Allied ships were almost through the mines and the Turkish shore batteries were almost out of ammunition when the Allies turned around. The try on land wasn't so far-fetched it couldn't have worked either. All those guys needed was a commander like Nick Nolte screaming, "High ground by nightfall!". Yep. Generals are so often more beaten more by their own imaginations than by reality. History is full of examples of commanders quailing before weak-but-unknown defenses, when if they'd simply proceeded quickly until stopped, we know they'd have been able to keep going to brilliant victory. And by contrast, at times when generals knew exactly what ridiculously tough (but known) defenses they were up against, they were willing to methodically feed men into a meatgrinder with no problem. So long as it was a KNOWN and EXPECTED meatgrinder. Incredible! At times generals have been willing to feed men into known and understood defences far more horrible than the ones they imagined and shrank from, earlier. It's a matter of hating surprises. In the US civil war McClellan was defeated again and again by his own imagination. This was helped along by Lee, who always knew what stings of his to pull. Finally Lincoln beat Lee by sheer number and machines and one more thing: a guy named Grant who had no imagination. If U.S. Grant couldn't actually feel the resistance, he assumed things were fine and it wasn't going to show up. That's a very scary commander kind of commander to face, if he has the materiel advantage on you. You're then out of options, and Lee was. And in the end, he fed his own men into a well-understood meatgrinder during Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. It happens to the best of them. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)
|
|
|
|
RDH(Ghost In The Machine) |
|
And the admins broke Piggy's glasses...
Group: Regulars
Posts: 613
Joined:
From: Hell, Your Majesty...
Member No.: 15,578
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Tue 24th February 2009, 3:11am) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 23rd February 2009, 7:28pm) He got blamed for Galipoli in WW I, which wasn't really his fault (had the plan been executed by people as physically fearless as Churchill, it would have worked brilliantly. But they hesitated due to fear of mines long enough to let the Turks get in place, and then got slaughtered).
It really was a great idea. Even if it was a long shot, it had the potential to save millions of lives. Allied ships were almost through the mines and the Turkish shore batteries were almost out of ammunition when the Allies turned around. The try on land wasn't so far-fetched it couldn't have worked either. All those guys needed was a commander like Nick Nolte screaming, "High ground by nightfall!". I feel likewise about Operation Market Garden...best idea old man Monty had, and he would've gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for those meddling kinder of the 9 and 10th SS Panzer divisions who just happened to be resting and refitting in the Arnhem area at the time. QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 24th February 2009, 3:35am) In the US civil war McClellan was defeated again and again by his own imagination.
McClellan knew how to build an army...he was superb at it. But once built he could not fight an army. QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 22nd February 2010, 6:24pm) For added fun they've reignited the "combatants and commanders in the infobox" edit wars. If you want to give yourself an aneurysm, pick who you think the top five Allies should be and go try to explain it to the Wikipedians.
One need only look at the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Counsel for an answer to that. But WP is not really about answers, it is about generating drama and needless arguments. This post has been edited by RDH(Ghost In The Machine):
|
|
|
|
BelovedFox |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 214
Joined:
Member No.: 16,616
|
If I could be bothered with it, I'd probably take a stab at improving the World War II article. Unfortunately it would essentially require marginalizing a good half of the editors, but hey, what else is admin status for? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) I'd rather fritter away my Wikipedia time improving articles that no one else will improve and are far easier. In these kinds of disputes it's often frightening about how entrenched people get over trivial details. Some people read the first book on WWII and then warp the reality to fit was they learned back then.
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 22nd February 2010, 7:51pm) QUOTE(BelovedFox @ Mon 22nd February 2010, 4:36pm) If I could be bothered with it, I'd probably take a stab at improving the World War II article. Unfortunately it would essentially require marginalizing a good half of the editors, but hey, what else is admin status for? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif) I'd rather fritter away my Wikipedia time improving articles that no one else will improve and are far easier. In these kinds of disputes it's often frightening about how entrenched people get over trivial details. Some people read the first book on WWII and then warp the reality to fit was they learned back then. We wish there was a "back then". Instead of reading authors like Churchill or Keegan, these kids are screwing around on Wikipedia and learning by Google search. Not sure if either Churchill or Keegan are adequate for learning about World War 2. The first wrote more or less for self-propaganda purposes and though the writing's great and really entertaining I'd hardly call it "history" (as in the kind of thing that "historians" do - though I guess for certain purposes it can be considered a primary document). And Keegan - while he's great on stuff like psychology of soldiers in combat etc. - appears to be almost completely clueless about anything that didn't involve the British directly. For anything that happened east of Berlin remove the "almost" from the preceding sentence. And we're talking obvious mistakes here - IIRC in one of his books he blithly confused the Home Army with the 1st Polish Division (Soviet controlled), or something like that - the kind of stuff that a decent editor at a publishing house should pick up on. For the realz I'll take Martin Gilbert or Norman Davies "No Simple Victory" for general stuff. Antony Beevor ("Crete", "Stalingrad", "Berlin") for how military history should be done, though each work is more limited in scope - excellent writer too. For the real enthusiast of military stuff and the nitty gritty you got to go even more specific, like with Glantz and House's "Battle of Kursk". Dang it I wish I wasn't topic banned!
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(radek @ Mon 1st March 2010, 12:43am) For the realz I'll take Martin Gilbert or Norman Davies "No Simple Victory" for general stuff. Antony Beevor ("Crete", "Stalingrad", "Berlin") for how military history should be done, though each work is more limited in scope - excellent writer too. For the real enthusiast of military stuff and the nitty gritty you got to go even more specific, like with Glantz and House's "Battle of Kursk".
A for a bravura performance from a trained naval historian, who was trained as a historian before going on the spot to write naval history as it happened, let me put in a plug for Samuel Eliot Morison's 15-volume History of United States Naval Operations in World War II (Series), condensed for easy reading to the one volume The Two Ocean War. Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, where is your ship? "I am the U.S.S. Historiography; button your lip."
|
|
|
|
BelovedFox |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 214
Joined:
Member No.: 16,616
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 1st March 2010, 7:20pm) QUOTE(radek @ Mon 1st March 2010, 12:43am) For the realz I'll take Martin Gilbert or Norman Davies "No Simple Victory" for general stuff. Antony Beevor ("Crete", "Stalingrad", "Berlin") for how military history should be done, though each work is more limited in scope - excellent writer too. For the real enthusiast of military stuff and the nitty gritty you got to go even more specific, like with Glantz and House's "Battle of Kursk".
A for a bravura performance from a trained naval historian, who was trained as a historian before going on the spot to write naval history as it happened, let me put in a plug for Samuel Eliot Morison's 15-volume History of United States Naval Operations in World War II (Series), condensed for easy reading to the one volume The Two Ocean War. Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, where is your ship? "I am the U.S.S. Historiography; button your lip." In working at the US Navy Yard, I picked up a couple of the naval histories they had and was surprised about how good they were; while it's probably the matter of what books you pick up, pound for pound I've found the Navy-focused military history books far more engrossing than the average Army-focused one.
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
Apparently seven references is the perfect number. Five of these were written in the last ten years. QUOTE References Davies, Norman (2008), No Simple Victory: World War II in Europe, 1939–1945, Penguin Group, ISBN 0143114093 Glantz, David M. (2001), The Sovietâ€German War 1941–45 Myths and Realities: A Survey Essay, http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf Hsiung, James Chieh (1992), China's Bitter Victory: The War with Japan, 1937–1945, M.E. Sharpe, ISBN 156324246X Jowett, Philip S.; Andrew, Stephen (2002), The Japanese Army, 1931–45, Osprey Publishing, ISBN 1841763535 Kershaw, Ian (2001), Hitler, 1936–1945: Nemesis, W. W. Norton & Company, ISBN 0393322521 Murray, Williamson; Millett, Allan Reed (2001), A War to Be Won: Fighting the Second World War, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0674006801 Weinberg, Gerhard L. (1995), A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521558794
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 1st March 2010, 7:39am) QUOTE(radek @ Mon 1st March 2010, 2:43am) Dang it I wish I wasn't topic banned!
ha ha, you're topic banned! One of the things to avoid in a general encyclopedia is revisionism (the world has been overlooking x and now everyone ought to know!!!!!!!) and too much detail. Whatever Churchill's faults (and he admits to them), he explains why the invasion went in at Normandy rather than Calais. Something Wikipedia fails at. Why were you topic banned? Arguing about the infobox? The Eastern European mailing list. And the topic ban's just for Eastern Europe so I could still write about Crete (might have to dig out that Beevor again) or Normandy or Dutch Resistance (got buttload of materials from the DR museum in Amsterdam). But the Eastern Front is just so much more fascinating (often in the "may you live in interesting times" kind of way) No revisionism from me. Don't really care that much about infoboxes either. I should've been clearer about Churchill - it's definitely worth reading and yes, you can learn a lot about WWII from it, you just have to keep the limitations and nature of the work in mind. Admittedly naval history is something I'm weaker on, in regard to WWII. I suspect BFox is right above in regard to strictly naval military history books. I'm not all that strong on the war in Asia either. I've read Weinberg a while back and I remember having some minor issues with it but overall it is really good.
|
|
|
|
thekohser |
|
Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined:
Member No.: 911
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 1st March 2010, 2:43pm) Apparently seven references is the perfect number. Five of these were written in the last ten years. QUOTE References Davies, Norman (2008), No Simple Victory: World War II in Europe, 1939–1945, Penguin Group, ISBN 0143114093 Glantz, David M. (2001), The Sovietâ€German War 1941–45 Myths and Realities: A Survey Essay, http://www.strom.clemson.edu/publications/sg-war41-45.pdf Hsiung, James Chieh (1992), China's Bitter Victory: The War with Japan, 1937–1945, M.E. Sharpe, ISBN 156324246X Jowett, Philip S.; Andrew, Stephen (2002), The Japanese Army, 1931–45, Osprey Publishing, ISBN 1841763535 Kershaw, Ian (2001), Hitler, 1936–1945: Nemesis, W. W. Norton & Company, ISBN 0393322521 Murray, Williamson; Millett, Allan Reed (2001), A War to Be Won: Fighting the Second World War, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0674006801 Weinberg, Gerhard L. (1995), A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521558794 I came "this close" to going to Ohio State for grad school to study with Allan Millett and Williamson Murray. But, I chose Temple and Russell Weigley and David Alan Rosenberg. (Better fellowship offered by Temple.) Still, I think Murray's Luftwaffe: Strategy for Defeat was excellent.
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(Cla68 @ Mon 1st March 2010, 6:51pm) QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 22nd February 2010, 6:24pm) Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this top 20 article to "good article" status.
Writing a broad overview article like WWII is boring and tedious. Writing a detailed article on an individual battle or weapon system is much more interesting and enjoyable for someone who isn't being paid to do it. That's one of the reasons why Wikipedia has featured articles on battles where less than 500 people died but the WWII and Pacific Campaign articles are in bad shape. Yup, that's pretty much it. The only question is whether this is because writing "broad overview" articles is intrinsically tedious and boring or is it because if you want to write a "broad overview" article most of those have already been written by somebody(s) elses and good chunk of the "tedious" part comes in mostly through having to clean up someone(s) elses messes and work with their material. Whereas with a more specific article you get to pretty much write how you want it. This isn't confined to military history. At one point I tried making "Poverty" a half decent article and completely failed because it had so much previous junk in it that needed to be cleaned up that it got really ... tedious, really fast. Dumping the junk completely of course quickly ran into opposition from folks who insisted that their junk had to be there. I gave up.
|
|
|
|
TungstenCarbide |
|
Allegedly shot down by stray Ukrainian missile
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,405
Joined:
Member No.: 10,787
|
QUOTE(everyking @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 2:25am) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 1:51am) QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 22nd February 2010, 6:24pm) Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this top 20 article to "good article" status.
Writing a broad overview article like WWII is boring and tedious. Writing a detailed article on an individual battle or weapon system is much more interesting and enjoyable for someone who isn't being paid to do it. That's one of the reasons why Wikipedia has featured articles on battles where less than 500 people died but the WWII and Pacific Campaign articles are in bad shape. The problem is two-fold: first, to write the article properly, you've got to review a vast range of source material, and you've got to boil it down to just the key points. That alone is a completely overwhelming task; there may be more source material for WWII than any other event in history. The other problem to consider is that you're going to necessarily have to work with quite a few other editors on a topic that can be quite sensitive, so there's a not inconsiderable chance you'll get bogged down in some editorial dispute no matter what you do. Just rewriting the intro could set off a firestorm of controversy. I admire anyone with the editorial ability to slog through all that and produce a high quality article. It's definitely much more enjoyable to concentrate on a smaller subject or niche area. What's the point of working hard to write a good article when there is no quality control or revision system.
|
|
|
|
CharlotteWebb |
|
Postmaster General
Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,740
Joined:
Member No.: 1,727
|
QUOTE(radek @ Mon 1st March 2010, 11:58pm) The Eastern European mailing list. And the topic ban's just for Eastern Europe so I could still write about Crete…
I can almost guarantee that one or more admins will block you for that, on the basis that Crete belongs to Greece, which is a country on the Balkan peninsula, which is part of the Slavo-sphere, which is part of eastern Europe. Sure would be nice if they actually defined eastern Europe for purposes of the topic bans somewhere on the case page. In the meantime I certainly would not count on many of these people to exercise common sense regarding any territory between the Salzburg and Orenburg meridia, widely construed. Point being that any regional terminology is vulnerable to self-serving scope creep, see also " middle east".
|
|
|
|
dogbiscuit |
|
Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined:
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015
|
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 10:10am) QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 1st March 2010, 8:13pm) The moderators have moved this thread without giving an explanation. What is the Annex for?..........remember this?......... QUOTE For topics that could be discussed on Wikipedia, should be discussed there, but for some reason ended up here Hmm, must go off and look at the talk page and see if anyone has managed to discuss this issue constructively. (Thinks: need I bother?). It is an important issue if we consider how Wikipedia has evolved. A work that seems to now depend on every nuance being referenced to infinity to protect it against the whim of another editor cannot possibly produce an extremely high level summary as such a summary simply has to be an opinionated view of what is important. In a way that is what a real encyclopedia does that Wikipedia simply cannot do. EB would probably take a new editor, get him to take a look at previous versions and he'd go with a refresh, perhaps taking into account new information (such as when the role of Bletchley came out which changed the understanding of how some of the war was fought) or perhaps be charged with a new version, where a respected writer would be sought. There are two problems: if you try and summarise existing summaries, you really are in a world of plagiarism as you will tend to be quoting opinion rather than fact, and you simply cannot go back to secondary sources to reference such massive overviews. EB solves that problem by just getting the reader to take it on trust that they've tried to do a good job - they rest on their reputation - an option not available to the squabbling editors of Wikipedia.
|
|
|
|
thekohser |
|
Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined:
Member No.: 911
|
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 1:05am) Sure would be nice if they actually defined eastern Europe for purposes of the topic bans somewhere on the case page. Hah hah haaaa. How soon you forget, Charlotte. I wish I had saved that map of Eastern Europe that Wikipedia had used. Can a Wikipedia admin retrieve it from here? Ah hah! Here it is, thanks to Archive.org! As you can clearly see, Crete is not a part of Eastern Europe, because neither is Greece. Nor is Turkey. In fact, neither is Bulgaria or Romania!
|
|
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 5:10am) QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 1st March 2010, 8:13pm) The moderators have moved this thread without giving an explanation. What is the Annex for?..........remember this?......... QUOTE For topics that could be discussed on Wikipedia, should be discussed there, but for some reason ended up here This is "In-depth evaluation of specific Wikipedia articles." This is one of the most important articles on Wikipedia. This is not Everyking's ninth RfA or the rumble of the day.
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 12:05am) QUOTE(radek @ Mon 1st March 2010, 11:58pm) The Eastern European mailing list. And the topic ban's just for Eastern Europe so I could still write about Crete…
I can almost guarantee that one or more admins will block you for that, on the basis that Crete belongs to Greece, which is a country on the Balkan peninsula, which is part of the Slavo-sphere, which is part of eastern Europe. Sure would be nice if they actually defined eastern Europe for purposes of the topic bans somewhere on the case page. In the meantime I certainly would not count on many of these people to exercise common sense regarding any territory between the Salzburg and Orenburg meridia, widely construed. Point being that any regional terminology is vulnerable to self-serving scope creep, see also " middle east". Yes, they were asked to do that several times during the case but never bothered just saying any bad faith attempt at gaming the definition which was not provided was going to be punished and the ol' "I know it when I see it" hubris. I do think however that there is SOME common sense involved, if not by others than at least by the admins at AE and that the general understanding is that the topic ban applies to the UN definition (in red) + Baltics, reflecting mostly the nationalities/ethnicities of the folks on the list (though not sure why that would then cover Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, or Bulgaria as that doesn't fit neither the nationalities nor the areas of dispute, but whatever). So I really don't think they would put Crete in Eastern Europe. Honestly, I never even considered that someone might until this thread. Also not sure how the Greeks would react to being put in the "slavo-sphere". Isn't that one of the running fights in the whole Macedonia dispute? Who's a slav and who's a hellene? Not that I wouldn't want to stay away from that whole mess as much as possible anyway.
|
|
|
|
CharlotteWebb |
|
Postmaster General
Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,740
Joined:
Member No.: 1,727
|
QUOTE(radek @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 6:54pm) I do think however that there is SOME common sense involved, if not by others than at least by the admins at AE and that the general understanding is that the topic ban applies to the UN definition (in red) + Baltics, reflecting mostly the nationalities/ethnicities of the folks on the list (though not sure why that would then cover Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, or Bulgaria as that doesn't fit neither the nationalities nor the areas of dispute, but whatever). So I really don't think they would put Crete in Eastern Europe. Honestly, I never even considered that someone might until this thread. I guess things would really be confusing had I been on that mailing list. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif) QUOTE(thekohser @ Tue 2nd March 2010, 3:06pm) Hah hah haaaa. How soon you forget, Charlotte. I wish I had saved that map of Eastern Europe that Wikipedia had used. Can a Wikipedia admin retrieve it from here? Actually I missed that thread, but I think defining it as Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine would have excluded the national interests of easterneurope-l subscribers. Maybe that's why the image was deleted. On the other hand it (in light of a couple paint-bucket failures) it might have roughly depicted areas with an east-Slavic-speaking majority prior to ethnic cleansing population transfer in the 1940s.
|
|
|
|
Trick cyclist |
|
Fortunately Denmark palmed Norway off to Sweden in 1814
Group: Inactive
Posts: 321
Joined:
Member No.: 15,636
|
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 11:27pm) I think defining it as Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine would have excluded the national interests of easterneurope-l subscribers.
Maybe that's why the image was deleted. On the other hand it (in light of a couple paint-bucket failures) it might have roughly depicted areas with an east-Slavic-speaking majority prior to ethnic cleansing population transfer in the 1940s.
The trouble is boundaries do change. Before World War I the German and Austro-Hungarian Empire would all have been Central Europe. Russia would all have been Eastern Europe. After World War I there was an independent Poland carved from Germany and Russia. After World War II Poland moved a good distance west. So for example the German city of Konigsberg (Central) is now the Russian city of Kaliningrad (Eastern). By no stretch can the Baltic states be regarded as Central Europe, but they would condemn any attempt to lump them in with the Slavs. I think they like to pretend theyre Scandinavian. The term Northern Europe distinct from East or Central is a useful one for them.
|
|
|
|
HRIP7 |
|
Senior Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 483
Joined:
Member No.: 17,020
|
QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Thu 4th March 2010, 8:49pm) QUOTE(HRIP7 @ Thu 4th March 2010, 5:11pm) In the case of the Estonians, it's not entirely unreasonable. Estonian is closely related to Finnish. Lithuanian and Latvian are separate from Estonian, but they are not Slavic languages either.
Except that the Slavic languages/peoples are much more closely related to Baltic than either is to the Scandinavian (i.e. North Germanic) ones, whereas the Finnic languages are right out. Plus Lithuanian is as easy as *PIE, according to 5 of 6 linguists. "Northern European" would be fine as it will at least hint to most readers that the writer does not intend to apply any objective or otherwise meaningful label. Easy as PIE indeed. As any pie maker knows, you need lots of cases. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) Finnish and Estonian are remnants of formerly more widely spread Finno-Ugric languages in the region; genetically, many Lithuanians and Latvians are Finns.
|
|
|
|
RDH(Ghost In The Machine) |
|
And the admins broke Piggy's glasses...
Group: Regulars
Posts: 613
Joined:
From: Hell, Your Majesty...
Member No.: 15,578
|
QUOTE(Emperor @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 8:03pm) Radek, save your breath. This thread has been moved to a place where very few people will read it.
Meanwhile, out in the Articles forum you can read and comment on "Category: Anal eroticism".
May I ask, with all due respect and love, who the hell moved this thread moved to the annex and WHY? (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/frustrated.gif) This post has been edited by RDH(Ghost In The Machine):
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
| |