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Messianic Jayjgism, What Rough Beast? |
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Jonny Cache |
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τα δε μοι παθήματα μαθήματα γÎγονε
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Here is the copy with address list from Gmane — Give me a minute to format mo bettah — QUOTE Subj: Messianic Judaism Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:57:57 -0500 From: jayjg <jayjg99-…@public.gmane.org> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l-…@public.gmane.org> To: aviwiki-…@public.gmane.org, "Pinchas Cohen" <PinchasC-…@public.gmane.org>, "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l-…@public.gmane.org>, "Beit Or" <beitor06-…@public.gmane.org>, "Humus Sapiens" <humus.sapiens-…@public.gmane.org> Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english Someone has conveniently deleted all the criticism from the lead, in violation of [[WP:LEAD]]. 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Messianic_Judaism&diff=175803950&oldid=175525305'I'm planning to go in tonight and do some re-adding and tagging. Will you be able to watch my back? _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l-…@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:
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Jonny Cache |
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τα δε μοι παθήματα μαθήματα γÎγονε
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QUOTE(Daniel Brandt @ Thu 20th December 2007, 2:43pm) Who has this email? I want the extended headers. There might be an originating IP address in it.
Here's the raw source view of the Gmane copy, but I'm not on the list, so I don't know if this is all. QUOTE Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: jayjg <jayjg99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> Newsgroups: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english Subject: Messianic Judaism Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:57:57 -0500 Lines: 14 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: <6a8d9d700712200757j53c534e5m3c44be8966a7e7b8@mail.gmail.com> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1198166324 4116 80.91.229.12 (20 Dec 2007 15:58:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:44 +0000 (UTC) To: aviwiki-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, "Pinchas Cohen" <PinchasC-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>, "Beit Or" <beitor06-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Humus Sapiens" <humus.sapiens-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> Original-X-From: wikien-l-bounces-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org Thu Dec 20 16:58:54 2007 Return-path: <wikien-l-bounces-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org> Envelope-to: gslwe-wikien-l-700-Uylq5CNFT+jYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.wikimedia.org ([91.198.174.5]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J5NnG-0005RC-HU for gslwe-wikien-l-700-Uylq5CNFT+jYtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:58:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42259 helo=lily.knams.wikimedia.org) by lily.knams.wikimedia.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <wikien-l-bounces-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>) id 1J5Nmj-0002WA-OS; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:12 +0000 Original-Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.232]:31727) by lily.knams.wikimedia.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from <jayjg99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>) id 1J5Nme-0002Vy-0O for wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:58:06 +0000 Original-Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h27so31556wxd.3 for <wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:58:03 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.142.144.16 with SMTP id r16mr107298wfd.97.1198166277735; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.142.105.18 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:57:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: English Wikipedia <wikien-l.lists.wikimedia.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>, <mailto:wikien-l-request-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l> List-Post: <mailto:wikien-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org> List-Help: <mailto:wikien-l-request-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>, <mailto:wikien-l-request-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org?subject=subscribe> Original-Sender: wikien-l-bounces-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org Errors-To: wikien-l-bounces-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english:87568 Archived-At: <http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.english/87568> Someone has conveniently deleted all the criticism from the lead, in violation of [[WP:LEAD]]. 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Messianic_Judaism&diff=175803950&oldid=175525305'I'm planning to go in tonight and do some re-adding and tagging. Will you be able to watch my back? _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l-RusutVdil2icGmH+5r0DM0B+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:
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Rootology |
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Fat Cat
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Ha ha ha, Jay you stupid fuck. To: aviwiki@gmail.com, "Pinchas Cohen" <PinchasC@gmail.com>, "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, "Beit Or" <beitor06@gmail.com>, "Humus Sapiens" <humus.sapiens@gmail.com> Ha ha ha ha! I'll just add that the fact he needs "backup" from a bannable offense, canvassing, shows that whatever his position is in this case is crap and likely in violation of other policies. Has anyone called bullshit on Wikipedia yet? What on earth? Why are his contributions out of order? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...er&target=Jayjg
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Saltimbanco |
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Who watches the watchmen?
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Let's see, now, based Jayjg's admission that the message was erroneously sent to the mailing list, but was instead intended for a select group of recipients (did anyone tell Jimbo about this email list, or was it one of those secret ones that he doesn't know anything about?), how does it fare when considered according to Wikipedia's Canvassing Guideline? Someone conveniently made a table there of different aspects to consider and what would make an action tend to be "disruptive canvassing" as opposed to a "friendly notice." So, Scale: limited is friendly; massive is disruptive. I'd say he gets "friendly" on that, although see below regarding intent versus action. Message: neutral is friendly; biased is disruptive. Lean toward "disruptive," because he stated his editing intent and asked for support rather than just asking for people to see what they think. Audience: nonpartisan is friendly; partisan is disruptive. Ah, oops! The term given for this is, "Votestacking." Transparency: open is friendly; secret is disruptive. Well, do we judge intent or action? If action, then it was just a friendly open reminder to the whole mailing list; if intent, the term given is "Stealth Canvassing." So what comes next? The, "Ha ha! I wasn't thinking; isolated instance; won't ever happen again!" position, or the "The Cossacks are practically at my door, and of course I have to do do all I can to defend (mainstream) Judaism, and of course I must do it in secret!" defense? Or will we just see "doc" get banned, and insta-ban for anyone else who ever mentions the matter again. This post has been edited by Saltimbanco:
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tarantino |
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the Dude abides
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QUOTE Here is the copy with address list from Gmane —
Subj: Messianic Judaism Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:57:57 -0500 From: jayjg <jayjg99-…@public.gmane.org> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l-…@public.gmane.org> To: aviwiki-…@public.gmane.org, "Pinchas Cohen" <PinchasC-…@public.gmane.org>, "English Wikipedia" <wikien-l-…@public.gmane.org>, "Beit Or" <beitor06-…@public.gmane.org>, "Humus Sapiens" <humus.sapiens-…@public.gmane.org> Beit Or used to be known as Pecher. He abandoned that account after Requests_for_arbitration/His_excellency, The same thing that Proabivouac did with his previous account. 18:00, 28 September 2006 Beit Or (Talk | contribs) New user account08:19, 27 September 2006 Proabivouac (Talk | contribs) New user accountNote the last message on Pecher's talk page is from Matt57. 17:39, 1 October 2006 Matt57 (Talk | contribs) New user account
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Proabivouac |
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Bane of all wikiland
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QUOTE(tarantino @ Thu 20th December 2007, 10:41pm) The same thing that Proabivouac did with his previous account.
You might begin with a new account, too, if you had that anti-semitic psychopath attacking your RWI all over Wikipedia. It's just one of very many examples of how anyone can turn Wikipedia into an attack machine against anyone at any time, with the acquiescence (or not, depending on your connections) of the management. That flame-war environment, not anything happening over here, is the main reason the community generally has been moving towards pseudonymity. When I started, believe it or not, the username policy suggested one's real name as the best one to use. That turned out to be very very bad advice.
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Rootology |
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Fat Cat
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QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Thu 20th December 2007, 4:32pm) You might begin with a new account, too, if you had that anti-semitic psychopath attacking your RWI all over Wikipedia. It's just one of very many examples of how anyone can turn Wikipedia into an attack machine against anyone at any time, with the acquiescence (or not, depending on your connections) of the management. That flame-war environment, not anything happening over here, is the main reason the community generally has been moving towards pseudonymity. When I started, believe it or not, the username policy suggested one's real name as the best one to use. That turned out to be very very bad advice.
The constant, endless, never-ending and ridiculous quest to ferret out 'banned' users doesn't help either. They did that to you when you went to the Proabivouac name and didn't announce it in public, but you did it as well helping MONGO, Tom Harrison, and the rest of the Team America trolls collect absurd collections of blown up evidence against that Six/Seven guy after he routinely stopped them via policy. If that lunacy can even infect someone that was screwed as you were to go and drive people off of Wikipedia like that, then things are extra shitty on Wikipedia.
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Proabivouac |
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Bane of all wikiland
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Thu 20th December 2007, 11:53pm) It's just his method of combatting it, by canvassing "privately" (except when he slips up and posts it to a public list) among his friends so they "have his back" when he reverts, that's problematic.
That method is a completely predictable feature of the current system for resolving content disputes. Everybody does it on all sides, and everybody knows it. ScienceApologist hits the nail on the head: QUOTE "What my allies say I should have done was find other editors to help revert him back and thus avoid 3RR. I think that this is esentially [[WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]] and effectively a way that is also opposed to Wikipedia policies and guidelines." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=139539241As one of those allies, I admit that that's exactly what I was suggesting - there's really no other way. His response gave me occasion to reflect on just how hypocritical the system had become, a system the quality control (to the extent there is any) of which relies very substantially on a practice and psychology that's formally condemned. As for Jayjg, I can't speak to all of Wikipedia's Judaism-related articles, but on those which also involve Islam, the POV pushing from the Muslim corner is relentless. I won't say that I think Jayjg neutral, but if I had to choose between his versions and the typical alternatives, his are at least coherent and informative. This post has been edited by Proabivouac:
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jorge |
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Postmaster
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QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 21st December 2007, 12:40am) As for Jayjg, I can't speak to all of Wikipedia's Judaism-related articles, but on those which also involve Islam, the POV pushing from the Muslim corner is relentless. I won't say that I think Jayjg neutral, but if I had to choose between his versions and the typical alternatives, his are at least coherent and informative.
Jayjg's edits always favour the Jewish or pro-Israeli position. T he Israeli Foreign Ministry acknowledges " the importance that the Internet encyclopedia Wikipedia has in shaping opinion". The major problem here is that sanctions are vastly greater on editors who oppose people pushing an Israeli POV than those who are doing it. Jimbo Wales certainly does care about what the Israeli lobby could say about his project. Is he concerned about what Palestinian or Muslim groups might say- no.
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Proabivouac |
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Bane of all wikiland
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QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 21st December 2007, 12:37am) …you did it as well helping MONGO, Tom Harrison, and the rest of the Team America trolls collect absurd collections of blown up evidence against that Six/Seven guy after he routinely stopped them via policy.
I have nothing at all against NuclearUmpf/SevenOfDiamonds except that he was taking the piss by denying who he was, and calling other people liars for seeing the obvious. He seemed to me a productive and capable editor whose negative history with MONGO drove him to seek a rematch on the noticeboards. QUOTE(jorge @ Fri 21st December 2007, 1:00am) Jimbo Wales certainly does care about what the Israeli lobby could say about his project. Is he concerned about what Palestinian or Muslim groups might say- no.
I hate to break this to you, but when Muslim groups have a major influence on Wikipedia, you can kiss the project goodbye. Not all worldviews are equally rational, or, if you prefer, not all are equally compatible with the values of Western academic scholarship. This post has been edited by Proabivouac:
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Timp |
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New Member
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Fri 21st December 2007, 12:29am) QUOTE(jorge @ Thu 20th December 2007, 7:01pm) Why would there be things to be discussed about articles that cannot be said in public?
There aren't... as I said, he went about it in all the wrong way, and possibly symptomatic of a greater problem... who knows how much of this back-channel stuff is going on. He should have pointed out the problem with the article above-board on its talk page or other on-wiki channels. However, his concern itself seems valid. There were five edits there -- Jayjg attributed them all to ChristTrekker, but actually s/he only edited the picture. I don't know if the other edits were good or bad, but I think the edit summaries were correct.
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Aloft |
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Please stop trying to cause trouble!
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QUOTE(Timp @ Thu 20th December 2007, 7:46pm) There were five edits there -- Jayjg attributed them all to ChristTrekker, but actually s/he only edited the picture. There were five? I'm not sure I follow; Do you mean to say that some edits were oversighted, causing multiple edits to be attributed to ChristTrekker?
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msharma |
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QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 21st December 2007, 1:11am) QUOTE(Rootology @ Fri 21st December 2007, 12:37am) …you did it as well helping MONGO, Tom Harrison, and the rest of the Team America trolls collect absurd collections of blown up evidence against that Six/Seven guy after he routinely stopped them via policy.
I have nothing at all against NuclearUmpf/SevenOfDiamonds except that he was taking the piss by denying who he was, and calling other people liars for seeing the obvious. He seemed to me a productive and capable editor whose negative history with MONGO drove him to seek a rematch on the noticeboards. QUOTE(jorge @ Fri 21st December 2007, 1:00am) Jimbo Wales certainly does care about what the Israeli lobby could say about his project. Is he concerned about what Palestinian or Muslim groups might say- no.
I hate to break this to you, but when Muslim groups have a major influence on Wikipedia, you can kiss the project goodbye. Not all worldviews are equally rational, or, if you prefer, not all are equally compatible with the values of Western academic scholarship. For a moment there, WR looked just like WP: some ignoramus making dark statements about something he doesn't know a damn thing about.
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Amarkov |
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Ãœber Member
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QUOTE(Jonny Cache @ Thu 20th December 2007, 7:32pm) What do members of the Wikipeanut Gallery learn about Wikipediot Society when they see an Elite Henchman like Jayjg get away with high crimes and misdemeanors on a routine basis any one instance of which would get the ordinary Wikipeon banned for life? Jonny (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif) As you've said; they learn that people sufficiently dedicated to the clique can obtain Rank, and this Rank will give them power to abuse people they don't like. This is really quite an effective way to run a Mafia; punishment and reward structures are combined into one thing! Except Wikipedia's supposed to not be evil, isn't it?
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