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> Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk?
carbuncle
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There are some strong accusations being thrown out about members of a certain closed mailing list.
QUOTE
Concentrated stalking and attacks against Russavia

Yesterday a member of a closed e-mail list named "Wikipediametric" forwarded me their archive asking me to do something about it. Out of the 3000+ emails more than a half is filled with discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia. Among the suggested methods were stalking Russavia edits, carefully crafted edit warring (making sure that no member of the group would make more than one or two reverts), low level personal attacks designed to engineer civility blocks for Russavia's responses, block shopping, attempts to out Russavia. "Friends of Russavia", particular User:PasswordUsername, User:Offliner, User:YMB29 as well as User:Anonimu were also under similar attack. The group was also discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering, etc. So far I have not found a single discussion or even kudos for creating noncontroversial wiki content but long series of joy on every block for the people listed as their enemies, particular Russavia. They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies. Among the most active members are User:Digwuren, User:Biophys, User:Piotrus, User:Molobo, User:Radeksz. The emails are almost certainly genuine. It looks like for at list half a year Russavia was a target of constant coordinated attacks by a group of active wikipedians quite skillful in the art of achieving victory by banning their opponents. I am not sure he was aware of this particular group but the editing history of articles touched by Russavia is quite telling by itself. I do not think it is in the project best interest to let them succeed.

I am not sure what to do about this archive. I will forward it to the Arbcom and I could provide it to any administrator I trust. I would not give it to nonadmins (including Russavia himself) or anybody else (unless the authors give me permissions) as it contain a significant amount of personal information that might be abused. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


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tarantino
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Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list, is a sociologist at the University of Pittsburgh. He published a paper earlier this year called Governance, Organization, and Democracy on the Internet: The Iron Law and the Evolution of Wikipedia.

I've yet to fully read or digest it, but a question arises in my mind, Is he a gonzo sociologist?
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QUOTE(tarantino @ Mon 28th September 2009, 12:29am) *
Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list, is a sociologist at the University of Pittsburgh. He published a paper earlier this year called Governance, Organization, and Democracy on the Internet: The Iron Law and the Evolution of Wikipedia.
Fascinating. And very, very naive. Piotrus documents the evolution of a single policy document and generalizes from that to the entire project, making a host of unsupported assumptions and giving conclusions without establishing definitions and showing the process involved. He assumes, as well, that the policy document is binding, but there is no binding structure and, in practice, the document is frequently ignored.

He ignores the actual mechanisms of power and substitutes for them ideals. As an example, he quotes the current bylaws of the WMF regarding the election of Board members. Sure, the bylaws now provide that a majority of board members "shall be elected or appointed from within the community," and takes this as evidence of increased democracy: "The December 2006 change of the bylaws makes the Foundation more democratic, lessening any oligarchic power of the Board by increasing the number of members elected from the community of editors to over half of the Board, and giving them control over the elections of the Board members from outside the community." But apparently he failed to notice mechanism, and the degree of power retained by the board, which is total. That bylaw doesn't require any elections at all! Nor does it bind the board to respect any particular election result.

However, sure, in actual practice, a majority of board members are elected, as he says. But through what process, and with what kind of participation? The vast majority of editors take no notice of "central processes," except when those impact them personally. Most editors would look at a list of candidates for ArbComm or the Board and not recognize any of the names. When one is part of the oligarchy, it looks like there is no oligarchy. And while, in theory, anyone can join the group of editors who participate in central or centralizing process, like policy pages, in fact, if you do so without "credentials," blocks are highly likely. It is much easier to be blocked for "meddling in policy" than for outright vandalism. I've seen indef blocks for this from first "offense," no warning, whereas blatant vandals typically get three warnings. The oligarchy is very self-protective.

Piotrus argues wikitheory as if the ideal were reality: "Jimmy Wales and the Board are not officially responsible to the community but they can legally overrule its decisions. However, if they would ever use this power for anything other then resolving a legal issue in need of immediate attention, it would likely do irreparable damage to the community."

He then notes that the community could, in theory, up and form their own wiki, if the Board unduly interferes. What is missed is the practical reality. In order to do this, the "community" would have to be organized. There have been attempts to organize the community. When it has been done on-wiki, it has been crushed and salted, the strongest example being Esperanza. Esperanza encountered a difficult point in its organizational history; it might have overcome this, but, at that point, it was shut down by a huge MfD, I think there were something like 600 !votes in it. And what the Delete votes represented was an effort by a mob to prevent editors from voluntarily associating with each other. If there were two editors who wanted to "waste time that could be devoted to editing articles," why should the community prevent it? I can say why. Because off-wiki organization is the only threat that exists to the oligarchy's power. As long as the oligarchy controls the communication mechanisms of the "community," it can remain in control.

Wikipedia is not immune to the Iron Law of Oligarchy; it is, rather, an example of how basic a level the Law operates on. Piotrus never defines "organization" nor "oligarchy." If we look closely at what organization means, in a practical sense, it does indeed imply oligarchy, but Piotrus wants to have his organization and freedom from oligarchy at the same time. In this, he confuses Wikipedia with "the community." Wikipedia is organized, quite clearly. The community is not, except in ways that are almost entirely dependent on Wikipedia.

So what if the Community organizes? Would then the Iron Law hold? Of course it would! However, with some forms of organization, power isn't centralized at all, and the possibility of the community "taking their marbles and forming their own wiki" would be real, and practically possible, if it were needed. And any group dominating the Community organizational structure could face immediate and effective loss of power, if that power depended upon continued and constant support from the whole community, not just those centrally involved.

Wikipedia is thought of as a new form of organization; it isn't. How to set up a non-organized organization is a problem that was faced and solved long ago. In the Alcoholics Anonymous Traditions, Bill Wilson wrote: "AA as such ought never be organized, but we may set up service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve." What is the "AA" he referred to? Is it AA World Services, Inc.? Obviously not! That's a traditional board-controlled organization, with advisory elections, just as with the WMF. AA is the "fellowship," the entire community of people who work together on their common problem. In the structure Wilson set up, AAWS collects no endowment, and operates on the voluntary contributions of members, and the amount of those contributions is restricted. There are no dues. Publications are sold, but at very low cost, enough to cover expenses. And the central office has no authority at all over local AA meetings or members. And there are many other details of interest.

Wikipedia is, as it were, a vast collection of committees with self-defined membership, one committee per page/talk page pair. Behavioral rules, however, are not self-defined, when there is conflict; rather, there is reference to more central authority, to the much more restricted group of administrators (0.01% of registered editors, smaller if we discount inactive admins) and then, failing some "resolution" there -- which often means simply a decision that is enforced, not an actual dispute resolution -- there is ArbComm. No oligarchy? No centralized power? It was a colossally naive claim by Piotrus.

What is true is that the power of the oligarchy is restricted. It cannot directly coerce behavior except the behavior of those who are attached to editing Wikipedia, and who can thus, to the extent of the attachment, be bullied into compliance.

Never mistake a description of the oligarchy as a complaint about it. It is what it is. My view is that oligarchy is indeed necessary and intrinsic to organization, and that oligarchies are largely functional, but that if our goal is maximized unity and real consensus, as it was with AA, measures must be taken to ensure that the oligarchy is actually trusted by the whole community, or at least by those who are affected by the oligarchy. A member of an AA meeting doesn't care if there is a secretary of some other meeting who is, say, overcontrolling. And if there is a secretary of the member's home meeting who is overcontrolling, the member can choose to tolerate it for a time or not. The saying in AA is "All it takes to start a meeting is a resentment and a coffee-pot." And it is truly about that easy. I'm not an alcoholic, but I've started meetings in similar organizations. Extremely simple; if there is any need at all, it's easily done, and the new meeting is immediately connected to the rest. And that facility is quite how AA managed to grow spectacularly, it is much more successful than Wikipedia! With no central control. Instead, the center is effectively controlled by the membershiip, who can choose to fund it or not. The New York office of AA could fall into the Hudson, and it would have very little effect on the members of the fellowship. They do not depend on it, but it depends on them.

What I see with Wikipedia, and too often, is that the oligarchy makes decisions that would not be supported by most registered editors, were there to be a community-wide discussion. I can see this by what happens as discussion expands, but expansion is so difficult and so time-consuming that it is, in itself, disruptive. If it is done on-wiki, and without structure, i.e., restricted participation or what I call "noise control." Off-wiki structures can be built by participants according to what works for them, they can be open or closed, depending on the needs of the members. "Service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve."

And to nobody else. The oligarchy may succeed in sanctioning some members of the Wikipediametric list, but it will be, ultimately, ineffective, just as all attempts to crush independent communication ultimately fail in the long run. Problem is, sometimes it takes generations for this to become clear! That list may shut down and be replaced by other lists which are more careful about how they conduct themselves. At some point, sufficiently strong off-wiki structures may start to have a significant effect, but whether this will come in time to avert collapse, I can't predict.

The present visible course leads to collapse. Burnout rates are becoming higher, and can be predicted to continue to increase. Wikipedia is phenomenally inefficient; when you are running a Ponzi scheme, that can be ignored, but not for a sustained project.
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QUOTE(Abd @ Tue 29th September 2009, 5:37pm) *
Wikipedia is phenomenally inefficient ...

My point entirely.

Like most cults, they blow their own trumpets about big numbers ... but they are not measuring the even more vast scales of loss, damage and inefficiencies ... and why should they care to? They exist entirely outside of the wonderful marketing documents they send to trust funds ... they can pretend they don't exist ... and they are bad for business (bring the money in).

They foundation does not have to pay for them, their donors - the Pee-dians - do out of their own private and future lives.

The oligarchies have no interest in fixing them because doing so would risk creating threats to their position, e.g. a better system including better people that would oust of over ride them, and exist in a state of mind that is too excited and consumed by all the dramatic firefighting and bureaucracy.

It is something that you see often in clubs and the voluntary sector. A few mediocre but ambitious individuals grab the honeypot and them drive everyone else away ... especially the potentially brilliant ones ... surrounding themselves with even dumber acolytes.

The original purpose is lost and it largely turns into a game of self-defence.
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carbuncle   Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk?  
LaraLove   And the plot thickens. Some Wikipedians are droppi...  
MBisanz   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is at...  
TungstenCarbide   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is a...  
One   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ...  
MBisanz   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ...  
don fugazi   Regardless of why he was added (I don't know ...  
Nja247   I say let there be full disclosure and then let th...  
LaraLove   I say let there be full disclosure and then let t...  
No one of consequence   I say let there be full disclosure and then let ...  
LaraLove   If there really are 3000 emails it would be prett...  
carbuncle   Releasing partially redacted info would certainl...  
carbuncle   I say let there be full disclosure and then let ...  
thekohser   Here is the full disclosure: Wikipedia is a multi...  
Somey   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the unde...  
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Cla68   MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onli...  
Mathsci   MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onl...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st ...  
No one of consequence   Thank you Mathsci, that did it. If those emails ...  
MBisanz   Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their ...  
No one of consequence   Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their...  
MBisanz   [quote name='MBisanz' post='195236' date='Mon 21s...  
No one of consequence   Well specifically I allege I had a conversation w...  
One   I got it now. I don't think the overall accu...  
TungstenCarbide   Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her technique...  
Cedric   Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her techniqu...  
Abd   But of course. What wiki-scandal can be complete ...  
One   I have complete confidence that Durova would atte...  
No one of consequence   Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks ...  
One   Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks...  
No one of consequence   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='195323'...  
One   Yes, but at this point they could easily leave o...  
Digwuren the Grey   I thought this would have been an obvious respons...  
Appleby   I have complete confidence that Durova would atte...  
EricBarbour   No, I recommend that Durova's offer should be ...  
Abd   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='195241' ...  
One   Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number wi...  
Cla68   Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number w...  
Milton Roe   :huh: :hmmm: Since Kato has been adamantly ...  
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   Durova has never worked for any orgazation more ne...  
Random832   I got it now. I don't think the overall accur...  
No one of consequence   I got it now. I don't think the overall accu...  
TungstenCarbide   They certainly have been desperate the keep the ar...  
Kelly Martin   There seems to be people who like to do this. Case...  
MBisanz   There seems to be people who like to do this. Cas...  
TungstenCarbide   There seems to be people who like to do this. Ca...  
InkBlot   [quote name='MBisanz' post='195353' date='Tue 22n...  
carbuncle   MBisanz says that the emails have been [url=http:...  
EricBarbour   [quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st S...  
Abd   (It was moved yesterday anyway. Warning, 10 megab...  
Backslashforwardslash   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
Nevo   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
MBisanz   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
Abd   This is one of the long running trends I have seen...  
Kelly Martin   This is one of the long running trends I have seen...  
One   How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg...  
Cla68   I would imagine 90% of the people in this forum ar...  
Moulton   I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intellig...  
Lar   I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intelli...  
Moulton   [quote name='Moulton' post='194940' date='Sat 19th...  
LaraLove   The Russia vs Poland vs Serbia vs Georgia vs Chec...  
Cla68   A case has been opened.  
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Jim   See, that's true wisdom. You can't crit...  
Friday   [quote name='Moulton' post='194744' date='Thu 17...  
Moulton   There are any number of people who attempt critici...  
Friday   There are any number of people who attempt critic...  
Cedric   [quote name='Moulton' post='194818' date='Fri 18t...  
EricBarbour   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponent...  
victim of censorship   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen...  
tarantino   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen...  
carbuncle   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's oppone...  
Apathetic   What a sordid mess  
LaraLove   [quote name='LaraLove' post='194751' date='Thu 17...  
Jim   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GBG...  
LaraLove   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GB...  
Jim   [quote name='Jim' post='194814' date='Fri 18th Se...  
Casliber   How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg...  
A Horse With No Name   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
TungstenCarbide   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing li...  
tarantino   I don't know how you define "gonzo...  
TungstenCarbide   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='196446' ...  
A Horse With No Name   Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older I...  
Kelly Martin   Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ...  
GlassBeadGame   Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ...  
carbuncle   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
No one of consequence   I've skimmed the first few pages, but haven...  
MBisanz   [quote name='carbuncle' post='196470' date='Mon 2...  
Casliber   Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older ...  
trenton   What's the outrage here? Isn't it common f...  
Silverman   If a bank leaves money out in the open, unguarded...  
Abd   Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, pe...  
A Horse With No Name   Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, p...  
CharlotteWebb   Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely use...  
MBisanz   Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely us...  
Apathetic   PD posted, FYI  
Abd   They did just go through the WMC-Abd case where it...  
Digwuren the Grey   I've argued that ArbComm should immediately s...  
thekohser   In other words, you learnt about the topic. In W...  
Kelly Martin   This would seem to be in conflict, at least on an ...  
Kelly Martin   And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ...  
Abd   And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ...  
CharlotteWebb   The most egregious finding of fact I see so far is...  
Abd   Some specifics. Coren has drafted findings of fact...  
CharlotteWebb   The citations to the mailing list are supposed to...  
Abd   I understand he is French-Canadian eh so you migh...  
Malleus   I find small town America really scary. God knows,...  
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A Horse With No Name   In regard to this proposal: "Piotrus topic ...  
Abd   In regard to this proposal: "Piotrus topic ...  
Malleus   I find small town America really scary. God knows...  
Eva Destruction   [quote name='Abd' post='199302' date='Mon 12th Oc...  
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Abd   I hated small-town America for exactly this reason...  
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dogbiscuit   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce...  
Kelly Martin   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce...  
dogbiscuit   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proc...  
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Deacon   The list "cabal" is a majority-POV-pus...  
Abd   The list members are all highly nationalistic, an...  
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Abd   I've been dealing with this stuff for years, h...  
Deacon   Actually, I wasn't talking to you, except for...  
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A Horse With No Name   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint E...  
Abd   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint Ea...  
A Horse With No Name   Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation de...  
Abd   Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation d...  
Milton Roe   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint ...  
Achromatic   I'm subscribed to the list now, and, suffice ...  
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='199889' date='Thu 15th Oct...  
Digwuren the Grey   :lol: Ever considered a career in comedy? [......  
Trick cyclist   What language would these people call their own? ...  
Digwuren the Grey   [quote name='Digwuren%20the%20Grey' post='209382'...  
The Joy   Why is the ArbCom reluctant to indefinitely ban ev...  
EricBarbour   Coren started posting his "remedies" bac...  
Sarcasticidealist   Coren started posting his "remedies" bac...  
Abd   [quote name='EricBarbour' post='199536' date='Wed ...  
Abd   Coren's agenda. , two proposed remedies which ...  
A Horse With No Name   Is this case still dragging on? Someone let me kn...  
Abd   Coren continued The problem is that this happens o...  
A Horse With No Name   In this case, I think it's just one administ...  
Milton Roe   And for that matter, let's make an effort to ...  
YellowMonkey   The only way we can enact serious change on WP ...  
Abd   In this case, I think it's just one administra...  
Milton Roe   We also have to acknowledge an ugly fact that Pio...  
A Horse With No Name   :hmmm: That is just shocking if true. We've n...  
Abd   Very nice, perhaps, and I have evidence for that, ...  
radek   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' date=...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, learn how to quote properly :) Hint: you ne...  
A Horse With No Name   While I'm here I also wanted to respond to th...  
A Horse With No Name   For those who got distracted by Mr. Miller and his...  
A Horse With No Name   Overlooked in recent days is another BLP AfD, this...  
A Horse With No Name   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward ...  
The Joy   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward...  
A Horse With No Name   Not so fast, Horsey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wi...  
The Joy   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
Cedric   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
A Horse With No Name   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/i...  
Abd   I I like how Manning rewrites history: "For t...  
Guesswork Orange   I think Piotrus resigned because he wasn't usi...  
radek   All you've done there is just list everytime t...  
Digwuren the Grey   Off-wiki communication is what could dethrone the...  
Digwuren the Grey   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/...  
thekohser   It may not be *the* standard procedure, but it su...  
Digwuren the Grey   You have to love a community/system/tribunal that...  
MBisanz   According to new, now oversighted evidence that I ...  
radek   According to new, now oversighted evidence that I...  
MBisanz   According to new, now oversighted evidence that ...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th D...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
MBisanz   [quote name='radek' post='208152' date='Thu 3rd D...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom...  
Somey   Behold the words of evil and hate, and tremble: ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20820...  
radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='2082...  
radek   And here is my "official" statement I se...  
MBisanz   And here is my "official" statement I s...  
radek   I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom...  
MBisanz   ""I would be interested in a translat...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w...  
TungstenCarbide   EDIT: I just found what made Radek so angry. I am ...  
carbuncle   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
Abd   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
Milton Roe   (If we don't make decisions by vote, please e...  
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='208288' date='Fri 4th Dece...  
Somey   It's both. I'm still not as negative as yo...  
Kelly Martin   The "system," such as it is, is brillian...  
Random832   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th D...  
Kelly Martin   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th De...  
radek   [quote name='Random832' post='208545' date='Sat 5...  
radek   I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   There ain't crap in there and you know it. ...  
RDH(Ghost In The Machine)   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
everyking   I find the ArbCom's own mailing list to be a m...  
Sarcasticidealist   Welcome to WR, Piotrus.  
Guesswork Orange   Even so this thread is strategically spammed by th...  
A Horse With No Name   I recognized my mistakes and now we are only beat...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Interesting...  
Somey   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wik...  
radek   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wi...  
Milton Roe   Yes and this was a "voting bloc" that r...  
Mathsci   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Abd   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Mathsci   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208374' date='Fri 4th...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Abd has apparently joined the EEML. As I believ...  
Abd   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208579' date='Sun 6th ...  
wjhonson   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I have no problem with the existence of a mailing...  
Guesswork Orange   I have no problem with the existence of a mailin...  
radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20871...  
Abd   While we're on the subject, I think the one ba...  
Abd   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Guesswork Orange   We are not a closed group, applications are welco...  
wjhonson   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did y...  
radek   It's a matter of perspective. Take a look at...  
radek   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   But Halibutt is not gone. [url=http://en.wikiped...  
Guesswork Orange   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
Guesswork Orange   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, why are you bothering with a SPA who doesn...  
radek   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
Wiki Witch of the West   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sat 5th D...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Somey' post='208537' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more ...  
MBisanz   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more...  
radek   See what I posted at the arb com Evidence page. ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, give it a rest. I already told you that it ...  
Guesswork Orange   Anyway - I posted all the email headers at the ca...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sun 6th D...  
Abd   For example, the biggest email thread contains 46 ...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
JohnA   Somey: I'll struggle to find a better synop...  
Sarcasticidealist   I confess that, based solely on what's been pr...  


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