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> Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk?
carbuncle
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There are some strong accusations being thrown out about members of a certain closed mailing list.
QUOTE
Concentrated stalking and attacks against Russavia

Yesterday a member of a closed e-mail list named "Wikipediametric" forwarded me their archive asking me to do something about it. Out of the 3000+ emails more than a half is filled with discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia. Among the suggested methods were stalking Russavia edits, carefully crafted edit warring (making sure that no member of the group would make more than one or two reverts), low level personal attacks designed to engineer civility blocks for Russavia's responses, block shopping, attempts to out Russavia. "Friends of Russavia", particular User:PasswordUsername, User:Offliner, User:YMB29 as well as User:Anonimu were also under similar attack. The group was also discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering, etc. So far I have not found a single discussion or even kudos for creating noncontroversial wiki content but long series of joy on every block for the people listed as their enemies, particular Russavia. They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies. Among the most active members are User:Digwuren, User:Biophys, User:Piotrus, User:Molobo, User:Radeksz. The emails are almost certainly genuine. It looks like for at list half a year Russavia was a target of constant coordinated attacks by a group of active wikipedians quite skillful in the art of achieving victory by banning their opponents. I am not sure he was aware of this particular group but the editing history of articles touched by Russavia is quite telling by itself. I do not think it is in the project best interest to let them succeed.

I am not sure what to do about this archive. I will forward it to the Arbcom and I could provide it to any administrator I trust. I would not give it to nonadmins (including Russavia himself) or anybody else (unless the authors give me permissions) as it contain a significant amount of personal information that might be abused. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


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Abd
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Some specifics. Coren has drafted findings of fact. Many of them cite no evidence at all, yet may involve highly subjective, mind-reading conclusions. Of those which cite evidence, here is an examination that will include some description or quotation of list messages.

Use_of_administrative_tools_in_dispute
QUOTE
9) Piotrus (T-C-L-K-R-D) has used his administrative tools in disputes he and other members of the list was involved in in order to affect disputes and in furtherance of their point of view. [20090916-0602][20090915-0610] protection of Battle of Konotop

:Support:
:# There was also some bullying using his status. — Coren (T-C-L-K-R-D) 03:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Last first: "Some bullying" is not supported by evidence, but admin bullying is routine on Wikipedia, and very serious bullying has been roundly ignored by ArbComm, and recently.

The citations to the mailing list are supposed to be YYYYMMDD-HHMM, but don't match the list archive I downloaded. I think Coren has used his Outlook display of the mails instead of the time shown in the archive index, and/or has simply erred. I was able to figure this out, I think, the reference may be to messages 09/15/2009 18.02 (Piotrus) and 09/15/2009 18.10 (Radek), but the former is erroneously listed as 09/16, and the latter has little or no bearing on Piotrus, unless dicta by Radek, a simple intention to make a reasonable edit, not even actually done, somehow reflects on Piotrus' use of tools.

The first message in the list to address the Battle of Konotop problem was an appeal for advice, by [wpu]Hillock65[/wpu], 20090915-0524-%5BWPM%5D%20Advice%20is%20sought%20on%20situation.eml. Nobody would have blinked at a message like this on a noticeboard or administrative user page, except that some might have reacted to the mention of "Russian brigades," referring to multiple editors revert warring, Voyevoda (T-C-L-K-R-D) on Sept. 14, when Hillock65 was reverting as well, then HenrichB (T-C-L-K-R-D) on Sept. 15. HenrichB apparently registered to edit war. Voyevoda has, on his user page, "I'm interested in politics and history of Eastern Europe and I try to correct the one-sided view of history maintained by Poles throughout the Wikipedia." ArbComm is completely ignoring context, Hillock65 was faced with apparent abuse and asked for help.

Radeksz (T-C-L-K-R-D) , another list subscriber, reverted at 05:38, 15 September 2009. If the list index is UTC, this would be a rapid (and on the face proper) response to the complaint. That is, had the communication happened on-wiki, it would not, in itself, be improper, and ArbComm has laid out the principle the standard that if coordination that happens on-wiki would be improper, it is improper if it happens off-wiki. One might presume the converse, but apparently not.

Radek posted to the list,
QUOTE
Extensive changes w/o an edit summary or any text are probably a decent indication that sock puppeting is going on (the editor doesn't want to give themselves away by making 'signature' statements). Do you have any suspicions as to who the sock puppet is?

Anyway. Reverted that guy, and put it on the watch list.
Hillock replied:
QUOTE
I checked his info on Russian WP. He seems to be a legitimate user there. However, he probably doesn't speak English and is supporting his buddy there. Anyway, thanks for your help. I will monitor the situation, now that I've established that he is not a sock.
195.35.72.49 then reverted Radek, and revert warring began between IP editors.

Piotrus then replied,
QUOTE
Since most of the edits are from IPs/newly registered editors, I slapped
a semi-protection on it instead of reverting (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)
Piotrus did not edit the article, which, in fact, left it in the "pro-Russian" version. So Radek wrote to the list,
QUOTE
I'll follow it up with a revert to the "good" version in a bit.
. However, that revert was done by Marting, another list member.

Digwuren commented
QUOTE
Not necessarily; the "Those others are beating ours!" battle cry is a known way of Cartel picking up new (usually temporary) members. *But* Wikipedia's checkuser procedures don't always take that into account, so such tag-along accounts can occasionally be blocked as sockpuppets of somebody else.
The list archive stops Sept 16, the next day, so I can't tell if there were more edits on this topic; however, Voyevoda continued with reversions. I have not investigated the content, but Voyevoda was blocked by Backslash Forwardslash two days later, Sept. 17, for edit warring on the article. Other, different editors continued edit warring, and eventually, Will Beback, October 4, again blocked Voyevoda for edit warring, but then unblocked and instead full-protected the article.

I'm sure you are all now shocked, shocked by the vicious anti-Russian collusion here, it's as if Russians weren't even human beings. Not. Really, if this were typical of Wikipedia battles, on more sides than that of Piotrus, Wikipedia would be a much, much nicer place.

No good deed goes unpunished. Was Piotrus "involved"? It could be argued that this was a factional involvement, Piotrus was helping his "friend."

I tried to raise the issue of factional involvement, as distinct from article involvement, in RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley, and part of my slap-down was for raising the issue (I used the term "cabal" for it). Piotrus had not previously edited the article. His response was quite a moderate one. Piotrus did not abuse his tools, compared to what I see happen routinely. Far from being reversed, his semiprotection later became full protection.

Now, consider what would have happened if Hillock had not had access to the list. Hillock, faced with multiple editors, one appearing to be a sock, would have gone to AN/I, and there would have been a disruptive discussion, involving far more wasted editor time than the handful of brief posts on the mailing list. This was actually an example of how the list was helpful to Wikipedia. Possible dispute was actually defused, not inflamed, as it was explained that the new editor wasn't a sock, though possibly a meat puppet, and I saw no berserker condemnation of the "enemy."

The list "cabal" is a majority-POV-pushing one, at worst. This shallow evidence, note, is being used to justify desysopping Piotrus.

(There may be other evidence which would shift this impression, but it's important that ArbComm, in issuing findings of fact, cite the best available evidence, and certainly not the weakest! Thus what can be seen here, without doubt, is arbitrator incompetence; an arb has come to a conclusion and then tries to grab some evidence to support it, instead of the much more time-consuming route of collecting evidence, sifting through it to select the strongest, and only then forming conclusions.)

The likely result, if this position prevails (it might not!), is that a sociologist who has written glowing accounts, published in reliable source, of how well Wikipedia works, and who clearly has a reasonably abstracted and sober position on content, the kind of editor I'd want on the other side from me, in fact, will not only be desysopped, but also blocked for three months, simply because he used his tools, reasonably, in a situation where his action wasn't controversial and, if anything, was too mild, inadequate, followed up by stronger action by others. Great result, guys! What will he publish next?

There is another finding after this on Piotrus, that cites more list evidence, from February, which ArbComm jwould routinely consider ancient history, I'll address that separately, later. If that modifies my conclusion here, I'll note it. Usually, for desysopping, ArbComm looks for a pattern of abuse, with recent examples, so I'm skeptical at the outside about the February incident!

Disclosure: Having read the list archive to a degree, and realizing that Piotrus was a sociologist, with some understanding of the basic issues of WP structure, I asked him if I could join the list; he asked the list, and I was accepted and welcomed with a mild interest in my situation and some fairly accurate analysis expressed, so now I get to read all kinds of boring stuff about Eastern Europe, like the price of apartments in Warsaw, and I'm not going to attempt to spell that correctly. These are the good guys, folks, generally, they are trying to figure out how to nicely and nondisruptively let ArbComm know that they aren't monsters, eating Russian editors for lunch.

But they do resist POV-pushing, as is appropriate; and what I see on top, from these editors, is general civility, though not without possibly some loss of patience, with what looks like an attempt to seek consensus, whereas on the other side, there is personal accusation and very strong POV pushing (one characteristic of that is accusation of bias in reliable source, which is often a red herring; bias is, indeed, an issue, but one to be approached with caution, because those accusations are easy and avoid facing the real issue: editorial consensus.)

I see open coordination among the Global warming cabal that is far, far worse than anything I've seen privately from the list archive or subsequently on the list, though I'd certainly think they are now being more careful....

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TungstenCarbide   There seems to be people who like to do this. Ca...  
InkBlot   [quote name='MBisanz' post='195353' date='Tue 22n...  
carbuncle   MBisanz says that the emails have been [url=http:...  
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Moulton   [quote name='Moulton' post='194940' date='Sat 19th...  
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Cla68   A case has been opened.  
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Moulton   There are any number of people who attempt critici...  
Friday   There are any number of people who attempt critic...  
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tarantino   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen...  
carbuncle   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's oppone...  
Apathetic   What a sordid mess  
LaraLove   [quote name='LaraLove' post='194751' date='Thu 17...  
Jim   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GBG...  
LaraLove   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GB...  
Jim   [quote name='Jim' post='194814' date='Fri 18th Se...  
Casliber   How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg...  
tarantino   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list...  
A Horse With No Name   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
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tarantino   I don't know how you define "gonzo...  
TungstenCarbide   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='196446' ...  
A Horse With No Name   Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older I...  
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carbuncle   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
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Digwuren the Grey   :lol: Ever considered a career in comedy? [......  
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radek   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' date=...  
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A Horse With No Name   While I'm here I also wanted to respond to th...  
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A Horse With No Name   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward ...  
The Joy   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward...  
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The Joy   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
Cedric   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
A Horse With No Name   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/i...  
Abd   I I like how Manning rewrites history: "For t...  
Guesswork Orange   I think Piotrus resigned because he wasn't usi...  
radek   All you've done there is just list everytime t...  
Digwuren the Grey   Off-wiki communication is what could dethrone the...  
Digwuren the Grey   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/...  
thekohser   It may not be *the* standard procedure, but it su...  
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radek   According to new, now oversighted evidence that I...  
MBisanz   According to new, now oversighted evidence that ...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th D...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
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Somey   Behold the words of evil and hate, and tremble: ...  
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radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='2082...  
radek   And here is my "official" statement I se...  
MBisanz   And here is my "official" statement I s...  
radek   I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom...  
MBisanz   ""I would be interested in a translat...  
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TungstenCarbide   EDIT: I just found what made Radek so angry. I am ...  
carbuncle   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
Abd   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
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Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='208288' date='Fri 4th Dece...  
Somey   It's both. I'm still not as negative as yo...  
Kelly Martin   The "system," such as it is, is brillian...  
Random832   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th D...  
Kelly Martin   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th De...  
radek   [quote name='Random832' post='208545' date='Sat 5...  
radek   I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   There ain't crap in there and you know it. ...  
RDH(Ghost In The Machine)   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
everyking   I find the ArbCom's own mailing list to be a m...  
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Guesswork Orange   Even so this thread is strategically spammed by th...  
A Horse With No Name   I recognized my mistakes and now we are only beat...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Interesting...  
Somey   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wik...  
radek   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wi...  
Milton Roe   Yes and this was a "voting bloc" that r...  
Mathsci   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Abd   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Mathsci   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208374' date='Fri 4th...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Abd has apparently joined the EEML. As I believ...  
Abd   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208579' date='Sun 6th ...  
wjhonson   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I have no problem with the existence of a mailing...  
Guesswork Orange   I have no problem with the existence of a mailin...  
radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20871...  
Abd   While we're on the subject, I think the one ba...  
Abd   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Guesswork Orange   We are not a closed group, applications are welco...  
wjhonson   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did y...  
radek   It's a matter of perspective. Take a look at...  
radek   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   But Halibutt is not gone. [url=http://en.wikiped...  
Guesswork Orange   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
Guesswork Orange   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, why are you bothering with a SPA who doesn...  
radek   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
Wiki Witch of the West   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sat 5th D...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Somey' post='208537' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more ...  
MBisanz   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more...  
radek   See what I posted at the arb com Evidence page. ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, give it a rest. I already told you that it ...  
Guesswork Orange   Anyway - I posted all the email headers at the ca...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sun 6th D...  
Abd   For example, the biggest email thread contains 46 ...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
JohnA   Somey: I'll struggle to find a better synop...  
Sarcasticidealist   I confess that, based solely on what's been pr...  


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