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> Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk?
carbuncle
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There are some strong accusations being thrown out about members of a certain closed mailing list.
QUOTE
Concentrated stalking and attacks against Russavia

Yesterday a member of a closed e-mail list named "Wikipediametric" forwarded me their archive asking me to do something about it. Out of the 3000+ emails more than a half is filled with discussion how "to get" and "attack" Russavia. Among the suggested methods were stalking Russavia edits, carefully crafted edit warring (making sure that no member of the group would make more than one or two reverts), low level personal attacks designed to engineer civility blocks for Russavia's responses, block shopping, attempts to out Russavia. "Friends of Russavia", particular User:PasswordUsername, User:Offliner, User:YMB29 as well as User:Anonimu were also under similar attack. The group was also discussing ways to plant their own checkusers, methods of creating sockpuppets untraceable by checkusering, etc. So far I have not found a single discussion or even kudos for creating noncontroversial wiki content but long series of joy on every block for the people listed as their enemies, particular Russavia. They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies. Among the most active members are User:Digwuren, User:Biophys, User:Piotrus, User:Molobo, User:Radeksz. The emails are almost certainly genuine. It looks like for at list half a year Russavia was a target of constant coordinated attacks by a group of active wikipedians quite skillful in the art of achieving victory by banning their opponents. I am not sure he was aware of this particular group but the editing history of articles touched by Russavia is quite telling by itself. I do not think it is in the project best interest to let them succeed.

I am not sure what to do about this archive. I will forward it to the Arbcom and I could provide it to any administrator I trust. I would not give it to nonadmins (including Russavia himself) or anybody else (unless the authors give me permissions) as it contain a significant amount of personal information that might be abused. Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


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Abd
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Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, pending the outcome of the case, and the arbitrator commentary specifically states that it is not for any finding of abusive action. I can't help but notice the difference with WMC. WMC edit warred on the case pages in RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley, multiple times, and edit warred on User talk: Hipocrite, and then finally blocked me during the case. And even then, a motion to temporarily desysop failed. Here, it passed. Why?

And it suddenly dawned on me. Rule 0 violation. Of course! The stability and often-unrestrained power of the oligarchy depends on the lack of off-wiki organization of editors. By starting and operating a mailing list that functioned as such an off-wiki organization, as a coordinating tool, as it would naturally become under some conditions, Piotrus violated an unwritten rule. This cannot be tolerated, and it is an emergency.

I do not believe that this thinking is conscious for most. Rule 0 violations are like that. Stating the rule, even thinking the rule, violates the rule, for those caught in the group-think. But I've seen examples of this kind of strong reaction before, and without this understanding, they make no sense.

Thus my prediction: Piotrus will not get his tools back, unless he apologizes profusely and abjectly, and immediately, and very creatively, expressing how wrong it was for him to start the list, and urging others to never even think of doing such a thing. Not likely for a self-respecting academic.

I should write to Piotrus....

Wikipedia Review is tolerated now, almost recognized. Why? Because it isn't coherently organized, there is way too much noise....
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A Horse With No Name
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QUOTE(Abd @ Tue 29th September 2009, 2:29pm) *

Piotrus was desysopped based on ArbComm motion, pending the outcome of the case, and the arbitrator commentary specifically states that it is not for any finding of abusive action.


Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely used his tools -- his one block for 2009 was in January. The act of desysopping him had nothing to do with this ridiculous case -- if anything, it was just a cheap lawyer's trick to make Piotrus look like a guilty party at the start of the proceedings.
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CharlotteWebb
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QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Tue 29th September 2009, 6:35pm) *

Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely used his tools -- his one block for 2009 was in January. The act of desysopping him had nothing to do with this ridiculous case -- if anything, it was just a cheap lawyer's trick to make Piotrus look like a guilty party at the start of the proceedings.

+1

About like they did Everyking, except for the "proceedings" bit. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)
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MBisanz
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Tue 29th September 2009, 7:56pm) *

QUOTE(A Horse With No Name @ Tue 29th September 2009, 6:35pm) *

Anyone who knows Piotrus knows that he rarely used his tools -- his one block for 2009 was in January. The act of desysopping him had nothing to do with this ridiculous case -- if anything, it was just a cheap lawyer's trick to make Piotrus look like a guilty party at the start of the proceedings.

+1

About like they did Everyking, except for the "proceedings" bit. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

They did just go through the WMC-Abd case where it is likely that such a temporary desysop would have actually prevented a permanent desysop, so I am not certain the situation is as clear as you indicate.
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Abd
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QUOTE(MBisanz @ Tue 29th September 2009, 3:42pm) *
They did just go through the WMC-Abd case where it is likely that such a temporary desysop would have actually prevented a permanent desysop, so I am not certain the situation is as clear as you indicate.
I've argued that ArbComm should immediately suspend the admin bit of any administrator who is accused of misbehavior involving use of tools, of sufficient believability that a case is opened; where an admin is involved in noncontroversial use of tools for some critical function, they might be suspended for all other purposes without actually lifting the bit itself. I.e., the suspension would be "voluntary," and it would be understood that violation would result in immediate actual desysopping (pending final decision).

However, in this case, there has been little evidence presented of actual abuse by Piotrus, and given ArbComm's extreme reluctance to even suspend bits, even in the presence of actually shown -- and accepted by ArbComm as such -- recusal failure, we then can suspect selective enforcement.

What I see happening is an extreme reaction to off-wiki communication that may influence on-wiki action. Quite properly, the oligarchy recognizes this as a severe threat to their power, for they cannot directly control off-wiki coordination, and they can only sanction what comes to light through clumsiness; i.e., the least dangerous off-wiki coordination is the most likely to be found. I'd see the strong response as coming from frustration at inability to control a situation.

The events alleged to be a result of improper coordination are actually thin, and the kind that would result from practically any communication, on or off-wiki. An editor notes an edit war situation arising at an article. if the editor noted this on-wiki, on another editor's talk page, that other editor might well show up and assist. Would this be improper? Not generally. But if the same communication happened on the mailing list, it's now evidence of improper coordination?

The whole approach is an error and, ultimately, a blind alley. Human beings function better when they consciously coordinate and cooperate. The chaotic Wikipedia model attempted to depend on lack of coordination as supposedly encouraging neutrality; the theory would be that if you can't call in your friends, then you will negotiate consensus. But when a set of friends share articles in their watchlists, and regularly support a position, the effect of conscious coordination appears without necessarily the consciousness. Cabal without conspiracy. Then, to oppose the cabal, other editors might cooperate, and this new cooperation can also be considered a cabal, and if they consciously cooperate, why, they can be sanctioned if the conscious cooperation can be proven.

I've read some of the mailing list involved, and ArbComm notes that most traffic is innocuous. This was not a list created as a cabal. The kinds of communication that took place, that could lead to some fear of conscious coordination, were the kinds that would occur if people simply talk with each other about their work on Wikipedia, and the problems that they encounter. In so talking, sometimes editors would say things that they wouldn't say on-wiki, and that then such conversations, taking place with some expectation of privacy, would be revealed, is highly offensive. I've been reading a little case law on the revelation of private mail, and applying that here, there was no compelling interest that ArbComm would have that would warrant consideration of the off-wiki evidence; now the drafting arb, Coren, has specifically referred to posts in the list, which anyone seeking to understand the decision would then want to read, and the archive can be found on the internet.

ArbComm seems to excuse this by claiming that no "hacking" was involved, on the theory that it was a list member who revealed the mails. Arbs are aware that there is an issue, but the motion to disallow the evidence was rejected, while waiting for Newyorkbrad to forumlate some alternative, which didn't happen, and now the proposed decision does cite specific mails, without revealing the content of those mails, i.e., what statements were actually objectionable.

And it is looking like a series of editors are going to be banned for activities that are less serious than what ArbComm routinely excuses; I'd see the theory behind this as an attempt to discourage off-wiki communication, because such communication will inevitably lead to some level of coordination. They will fail, and in the process they will do significant damage to the project. What they are doing is banning the most knowledgeable and active editors on one side of a highly contentious set of issues, and this inevitably results in bias. After three month site bans, there are year-long topic bans. Nothing I've seen so far even remotely justifies this directly; I conclude that we are seeing Rule 0 violations, that kind of disproportionate response is typical when the real offense cannot be stated.

The biggest "sin": treating Wikipedia as a battleground. In other words, if you describe the project as what it is in certain areas, and behave according to that understanding, you are an offender. Meanwhile, take a look at the prominent image at Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam (T-H-L-K-D) and then try to say, with a straight face, "Wikipedia is not a battleground."

(1) Some aspects of Wikipedia will necessarily involve strong measures.

(2) However, such measures, and the processes they involve, are always dangerous. Admins have told me how participating in dealing with spam led them to suspect a spam motive behind every edit, and to start treating anyone who was possibly a spammer with berzerker zeal.

(3) Content battles are normal and natural. Trying to stop "battling" is trying to stop humans from being human.

(4) If neutrality is desired, what must be provided is dispute resolution process; "combatants" are frequently unable to manage this on their own; expecting combatants to be masters of DR process and, at the same time, able to apply the principles to cases where they are personally involved, is utterly unrealistic. It's a skill that some might indeed develop. If they survive long enough. Most people will need help, and blame and rejection and warning and blocking aren't help and they certainly don't resolve disputes, they merely bury them, making them invisible for a time.

(5) Notice the lack of disputatious editing at cold fusion, for the most part, recently. So did it work, banning Pcarbonn, JedRothwell, and myself, not to mention ScienceApologist? Sure, when you ban an entire side of a dispute, the only editors with sufficient knowledge to balance an article from reliable sources, you can make "peace," but at the cost of neutrality. (It took me about six months to come up to speed on the topic, reading sources every day, and I'm continuing to find stuff, including mainstream peer-reviewed secondary source, supposedly the gold standard, totally ignored and assumed to be absent by the "majority POV editors" there. ArbComm accepted and cited as evidence against me, showing "tendentious editing," what was a blatant deception by a party to the case, easily shown, and ignored the contrary evidence, making no comment on it. Essentially, ArbComm ignored the content dispute, but accepted and cited evidence that depends on content positions as evidence of tendentiousness. Yes, that's a contradiction. It's unlikely that the evidence was actually read, in fact, it was cited because it supported impressions, and that's what I've long seen when the incompetent end up in positions of authority.

(6) As pointed out in a recent publication, Wikipedia has Dispute Resolution that doesn't resolve disputes. There is a theoretical basis for this, which better-informed editors will sometimes explain, but the problem is that it worked, sometimes, when the community was smaller and more united. It's presumed to continue to work in spite of massive evidence to the contrary. These are common phenomena in organizations like Wikipedia. That source relies on the canard that Wikipedia was considered impossible, but obviously works. No, the success of Wikipedia was predictable, in fact, by those who understood on-line process and organizational characteristics, but also its failures, which can easily be traced to structural defects, unsurprising due to the naivete of the founders, also very predictable. Kohser has pointed out that basic business ethics were disregarded; it's also true that basic organizational theory, well developed in the last part of the twentieth century, about how to foster consensus -- real consensus -- was neglected.

It's a bit like defending the aviation industry against accusations of failure to build safe aircraft, by pointing out the old and false theoretical rejections of the possibility of flight based on shallow analysis.

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Digwuren the Grey
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 12th October 2009, 5:34pm) *

I've argued that ArbComm should immediately suspend the admin bit of any administrator who is accused of misbehavior involving use of tools, of sufficient believability that a case is opened; where an admin is involved in noncontroversial use of tools for some critical function, they might be suspended for all other purposes without actually lifting the bit itself. I.e., the suspension would be "voluntary," and it would be understood that violation would result in immediate actual desysopping (pending final decision).

This argument makes sense in a world where arbitrators are considered people who have been given more personal power so they could serve the general public better. But then again, in such a world, privacy would be a right that protects the private people, and the need for oversight justifies reduction of privacy coverage of politicians (and celebrities).

Wikipedia's society works the other way around. In Wikipedia, privacy only exists for the people who are powerful, and oversight is exercised on private people because the ones who already are powerful are deadly afraid that the powerless might exercise their immense power in some dangerous way. If I were in a cynical mood, I might call it projection in the psychological sense.

Or, to put it in another way: there exists on Wikipedia a gang that runs blatantly secret mailing lists, uses them for purposes of ban engineering and other controversial activities, and systematically goes after people who look at their friends the wrong way. That gang is called the ArbCom.

QUOTE

However, in this case, there has been little evidence presented of actual abuse by Piotrus, and given ArbComm's extreme reluctance to even suspend bits, even in the presence of actually shown -- and accepted by ArbComm as such -- recusal failure, we then can suspect selective enforcement.

ArbCom is reluctant to insult friends, and consideres bit-suspension insulting. Since Piotrus had no friends in ArbCom, nobody was worried about insulting Piotrus.

QUOTE

What I see happening is an extreme reaction to off-wiki communication that may influence on-wiki action. Quite properly, the oligarchy recognizes this as a severe threat to their power, for they cannot directly control off-wiki coordination, and they can only sanction what comes to light through clumsiness; i.e., the least dangerous off-wiki coordination is the most likely to be found. I'd see the strong response as coming from frustration at inability to control a situation.

The powerful being afraid of the powerless because their power, although huge, is not absolute. Yes, it's a common trait in a certain kind of revolutionaries, and has led to more than one totalitarian system in world's history.

QUOTE

ArbComm seems to excuse this by claiming that no "hacking" was involved, on the theory that it was a list member who revealed the mails.

Rush Limbaugh likes that theory too, in his case, in reference to the East Anglia Climatic Research Unit. It's based on wishful thinking, not facts.

QUOTE

Arbs are aware that there is an issue, but the motion to disallow the evidence was rejected, while waiting for Newyorkbrad to forumlate some alternative, which didn't happen, and now the proposed decision does cite specific mails, without revealing the content of those mails, i.e., what statements were actually objectionable.

ArbCom seems to be thinking it is above the law. No wonder Wikipedia has a policy to excommunicate every Wikipedian who dares to raise a legal argument.

QUOTE

(3) Content battles are normal and natural. Trying to stop "battling" is trying to stop humans from being human.

There is a way to get rid of "content battles". See this blog post.

After all, Wikipedia's battles are fights over a scarce resource. Eliminate the scarcity, and you'll have no more battles of that kind. Griefers and SEO fans will still be doing their things, though.

QUOTE

(4) If neutrality is desired, what must be provided is dispute resolution process;

It's important to note that what Wikipedia calls "dispute resolution" is not. Probably the best illustration of this is the idea of "bad faith dispute resolution".

Real dispute resolution leads to resolution of disputes. On Wikipedia, disputes are only resolved by N-1 sides getting banned.

QUOTE

(5) Notice the lack of disputatious editing at cold fusion, for the most part, recently. So did it work, banning Pcarbonn, JedRothwell, and myself, not to mention ScienceApologist? Sure, when you ban an entire side of a dispute, the only editors with sufficient knowledge to balance an article from reliable sources, you can make "peace," but at the cost of neutrality.

This phenomenon is wonderfully documented by Terry Pratchett's depiction of Auditors of Reality.

QUOTE

(It took me about six months to come up to speed on the topic, reading sources every day, and I'm continuing to find stuff, including mainstream peer-reviewed secondary source, supposedly the gold standard, totally ignored and assumed to be absent by the "majority POV editors" there.

In other words, you learnt about the topic. In Wikipedia's worldview, that means you acquired biases. Supposedly, only ignorant people are fit to write encyclopædias.
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carbuncle   Dirty tricks cabal or just idle talk?  
LaraLove   And the plot thickens. Some Wikipedians are droppi...  
MBisanz   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is at...  
TungstenCarbide   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is a...  
One   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ...  
MBisanz   It would appear that Arbcom finds that there is ...  
don fugazi   Regardless of why he was added (I don't know ...  
Nja247   I say let there be full disclosure and then let th...  
LaraLove   I say let there be full disclosure and then let t...  
No one of consequence   I say let there be full disclosure and then let ...  
LaraLove   If there really are 3000 emails it would be prett...  
carbuncle   Releasing partially redacted info would certainl...  
carbuncle   I say let there be full disclosure and then let ...  
thekohser   Here is the full disclosure: Wikipedia is a multi...  
Somey   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the unde...  
Cla68   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
Moulton   The Russia vs Poland vs Serbia vs Georgia vs Chech...  
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   The Russia vs Poland vs ... vs ... vs ... vs ......  
Cla68   MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onli...  
Mathsci   MBisanz says that the emails have been posted onl...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st ...  
No one of consequence   Thank you Mathsci, that did it. If those emails ...  
MBisanz   Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their ...  
No one of consequence   Besides Tymek, did any other editors share their...  
MBisanz   [quote name='MBisanz' post='195236' date='Mon 21s...  
No one of consequence   Well specifically I allege I had a conversation w...  
One   I got it now. I don't think the overall accu...  
TungstenCarbide   Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her technique...  
Cedric   Meanwhile, Durova has offered to use her techniqu...  
Abd   But of course. What wiki-scandal can be complete ...  
One   I have complete confidence that Durova would atte...  
No one of consequence   Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks ...  
One   Perhaps if someone on the list could break ranks...  
No one of consequence   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='195323'...  
One   Yes, but at this point they could easily leave o...  
Digwuren the Grey   I thought this would have been an obvious respons...  
Appleby   I have complete confidence that Durova would atte...  
EricBarbour   No, I recommend that Durova's offer should be ...  
Abd   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='195241' ...  
One   Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number wi...  
Cla68   Now, ten editors can tag team a smaller number w...  
Milton Roe   :huh: :hmmm: Since Kato has been adamantly ...  
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   Durova has never worked for any orgazation more ne...  
Random832   I got it now. I don't think the overall accur...  
No one of consequence   I got it now. I don't think the overall accu...  
TungstenCarbide   They certainly have been desperate the keep the ar...  
Kelly Martin   There seems to be people who like to do this. Case...  
MBisanz   There seems to be people who like to do this. Cas...  
TungstenCarbide   There seems to be people who like to do this. Ca...  
InkBlot   [quote name='MBisanz' post='195353' date='Tue 22n...  
carbuncle   MBisanz says that the emails have been [url=http:...  
EricBarbour   [quote name='Cla68' post='195175' date='Mon 21st S...  
Abd   (It was moved yesterday anyway. Warning, 10 megab...  
Backslashforwardslash   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
Nevo   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
MBisanz   So, has anyone attempted to make sense of the und...  
Abd   This is one of the long running trends I have seen...  
Kelly Martin   This is one of the long running trends I have seen...  
One   How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg...  
Cla68   I would imagine 90% of the people in this forum ar...  
Moulton   I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intellig...  
Lar   I actually agreed with the IDCab that the Intelli...  
Moulton   [quote name='Moulton' post='194940' date='Sat 19th...  
LaraLove   The Russia vs Poland vs Serbia vs Georgia vs Chec...  
Cla68   A case has been opened.  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='Moulton' post='194744' date='Thu 17t...  
Jim   See, that's true wisdom. You can't crit...  
Friday   [quote name='Moulton' post='194744' date='Thu 17...  
Moulton   There are any number of people who attempt critici...  
Friday   There are any number of people who attempt critic...  
Cedric   [quote name='Moulton' post='194818' date='Fri 18t...  
EricBarbour   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponent...  
victim of censorship   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen...  
tarantino   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's opponen...  
carbuncle   FWIW, Russavia and some of Russavia's oppone...  
Apathetic   What a sordid mess  
LaraLove   [quote name='LaraLove' post='194751' date='Thu 17...  
Jim   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GBG...  
LaraLove   I was saying that we get Moulton's view. GB...  
Jim   [quote name='Jim' post='194814' date='Fri 18th Se...  
Casliber   How many times have I said that Wikipedia is larg...  
tarantino   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list...  
A Horse With No Name   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
TungstenCarbide   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing li...  
tarantino   I don't know how you define "gonzo...  
TungstenCarbide   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' post='196446' ...  
A Horse With No Name   Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older I...  
Kelly Martin   Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ...  
GlassBeadGame   Today's teens read HST? That would be cool. ...  
carbuncle   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing lis...  
No one of consequence   I've skimmed the first few pages, but haven...  
MBisanz   [quote name='carbuncle' post='196470' date='Mon 2...  
Abd   Piotrus, the hub of the East European mailing list...  
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   Wikipedia is phenomenally inefficient ... My point...  
Casliber   Teenagers find HST cool. Now that I'm older ...  
trenton   What's the outrage here? Isn't it common f...  
Silverman   If a bank leaves money out in the open, unguarded...  
Apathetic   PD posted, FYI  
thekohser   In other words, you learnt about the topic. In W...  
Kelly Martin   This would seem to be in conflict, at least on an ...  
Kelly Martin   And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ...  
Abd   And once again Wikipedia reminds its editors: ...  
CharlotteWebb   The most egregious finding of fact I see so far is...  
Abd   Some specifics. Coren has drafted findings of fact...  
CharlotteWebb   The citations to the mailing list are supposed to...  
Abd   I understand he is French-Canadian eh so you migh...  
Malleus   I find small town America really scary. God knows,...  
CharlotteWebb   [quote name='CharlotteWebb' post='199290' date='M...  
A Horse With No Name   In regard to this proposal: "Piotrus topic ...  
Abd   In regard to this proposal: "Piotrus topic ...  
Malleus   I find small town America really scary. God knows...  
Eva Destruction   [quote name='Abd' post='199302' date='Mon 12th Oc...  
A Horse With No Name   Dragging the thread back on topic, this is one of...  
Abd   I hated small-town America for exactly this reason...  
YellowMonkey   These gimmick cases of POV disputes clouded by sen...  
EricBarbour   Well, so far, it doesn't look good for Coren. ...  
Sarcasticidealist   Well, so far, it doesn't look good for Coren.H...  
dogbiscuit   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce...  
Kelly Martin   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proce...  
dogbiscuit   Perhaps the saddest indictment of the ArbCom proc...  
Abd   Fundamentally, in any system where the rules do no...  
SB_Johnny   Heh, took a bit to find where the thread on this w...  
Abd   Continuing the analysis of evidence re Piotrus, pr...  
Deacon   The list "cabal" is a majority-POV-pus...  
Abd   The list members are all highly nationalistic, an...  
Deacon   The list members are all highly nationalistic, a...  
Abd   I've been dealing with this stuff for years, h...  
Deacon   Actually, I wasn't talking to you, except for...  
EricBarbour   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint Ea...  
A Horse With No Name   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint E...  
Abd   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint Ea...  
A Horse With No Name   Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation de...  
Abd   Horse, for that you win a free LR-115 radiation d...  
Milton Roe   Sadly, while you may think you sound like Clint ...  
Achromatic   I'm subscribed to the list now, and, suffice ...  
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='199889' date='Thu 15th Oct...  
Digwuren the Grey   :lol: Ever considered a career in comedy? [......  
Trick cyclist   What language would these people call their own? ...  
Digwuren the Grey   [quote name='Digwuren%20the%20Grey' post='209382'...  
The Joy   Why is the ArbCom reluctant to indefinitely ban ev...  
EricBarbour   Coren started posting his "remedies" bac...  
Sarcasticidealist   Coren started posting his "remedies" bac...  
Abd   [quote name='EricBarbour' post='199536' date='Wed ...  
Abd   Coren's agenda. , two proposed remedies which ...  
A Horse With No Name   Is this case still dragging on? Someone let me kn...  
Abd   Coren continued The problem is that this happens o...  
A Horse With No Name   In this case, I think it's just one administ...  
Milton Roe   And for that matter, let's make an effort to ...  
YellowMonkey   The only way we can enact serious change on WP ...  
Abd   In this case, I think it's just one administra...  
Milton Roe   We also have to acknowledge an ugly fact that Pio...  
A Horse With No Name   :hmmm: That is just shocking if true. We've n...  
Abd   Very nice, perhaps, and I have evidence for that, ...  
radek   [quote name='A Horse With No Name' date=...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, learn how to quote properly :) Hint: you ne...  
A Horse With No Name   While I'm here I also wanted to respond to th...  
A Horse With No Name   For those who got distracted by Mr. Miller and his...  
A Horse With No Name   Overlooked in recent days is another BLP AfD, this...  
A Horse With No Name   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward ...  
The Joy   Giving credit where it is due: thanks to Backward...  
A Horse With No Name   Not so fast, Horsey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wi...  
The Joy   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
Cedric   [quote name='The Joy' post='202670' date='Mon 2nd...  
A Horse With No Name   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/i...  
Abd   I I like how Manning rewrites history: "For t...  
Guesswork Orange   I think Piotrus resigned because he wasn't usi...  
radek   All you've done there is just list everytime t...  
Digwuren the Grey   Off-wiki communication is what could dethrone the...  
Digwuren the Grey   Meanwhile, in Oceania: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/...  
thekohser   It may not be *the* standard procedure, but it su...  
Digwuren the Grey   You have to love a community/system/tribunal that...  
MBisanz   According to new, now oversighted evidence that I ...  
radek   According to new, now oversighted evidence that I...  
MBisanz   According to new, now oversighted evidence that ...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th D...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
MBisanz   [quote name='radek' post='208152' date='Thu 3rd D...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom...  
Somey   Behold the words of evil and hate, and tremble: ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20820...  
radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='2082...  
radek   And here is my "official" statement I se...  
MBisanz   And here is my "official" statement I s...  
radek   I would be interested in a translation of: ArbCom...  
MBisanz   ""I would be interested in a translat...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w...  
TungstenCarbide   EDIT: I just found what made Radek so angry. I am ...  
carbuncle   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
Abd   Just so it's not all "take", here...  
Milton Roe   (If we don't make decisions by vote, please e...  
Abd   [quote name='Abd' post='208288' date='Fri 4th Dece...  
Somey   It's both. I'm still not as negative as yo...  
Kelly Martin   The "system," such as it is, is brillian...  
Random832   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th D...  
Kelly Martin   [quote name='Somey' post='208443' date='Sat 5th De...  
radek   [quote name='Random832' post='208545' date='Sat 5...  
radek   I wasn't asking you to translate to confirm w...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   There ain't crap in there and you know it. ...  
RDH(Ghost In The Machine)   [quote name='radek' post='208123' date='Fri 4th ...  
everyking   I find the ArbCom's own mailing list to be a m...  
Sarcasticidealist   Welcome to WR, Piotrus.  
Guesswork Orange   Even so this thread is strategically spammed by th...  
A Horse With No Name   I recognized my mistakes and now we are only beat...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Interesting...  
Somey   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wik...  
radek   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wi...  
Milton Roe   Yes and this was a "voting bloc" that r...  
Mathsci   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Abd   Does Abd's ban stop in time for him to vote? V...  
Mathsci   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208374' date='Fri 4th...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Abd has apparently joined the EEML. As I believ...  
Abd   [quote name='Mathsci' post='208579' date='Sun 6th ...  
wjhonson   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   I have no problem with the existence of a mailing...  
Guesswork Orange   I have no problem with the existence of a mailin...  
radek   [quote name='Deputy Cabal Ringleader' post='20871...  
Abd   While we're on the subject, I think the one ba...  
Abd   Can people whose names start with A please stop po...  
Guesswork Orange   We are not a closed group, applications are welco...  
wjhonson   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did y...  
radek   It's a matter of perspective. Take a look at...  
radek   But Halibutt is not gone. See this link Or did ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   But Halibutt is not gone. [url=http://en.wikiped...  
Guesswork Orange   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
Guesswork Orange   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   [quote name='Somey' post='208438' date='Sat 5th ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, why are you bothering with a SPA who doesn...  
radek   The new information leak (Radek wanted to copy...  
Somey   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
Wiki Witch of the West   My GTalk sidebar automatically adds people that I...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sat 5th D...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Somey' post='208537' date='Sat 5th D...  
radek   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more ...  
MBisanz   Alllllllrrrriiiighhhhht lemme ask this one more...  
radek   See what I posted at the arb com Evidence page. ...  
Deputy Cabal Ringleader   Radek, give it a rest. I already told you that it ...  
Guesswork Orange   Anyway - I posted all the email headers at the ca...  
radek   [quote name='radek' post='208534' date='Sun 6th D...  
Abd   For example, the biggest email thread contains 46 ...  
MBisanz   [quote name='Guesswork Orange' post='208433' date...  
JohnA   Somey: I'll struggle to find a better synop...  
Sarcasticidealist   I confess that, based solely on what's been pr...  


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