Giano calls out FT2 for harassment, Uh oh Options

[Rootology]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...2.27s_behaviour

Yow. I just read some of the psychopop stuff FT2 has posted about Giano. Giano's right, that stuff is just totally inappropriate.

[KamrynMatika]

Could Giano be any more of a drama queen? I can't stand the guy. I hope he gets banned soon.

If it's only for the featured articles that we're keeping him around, I'll happily go and write some on architecture or whatever - if it means we get some peace and quiet from the endless histrionics that come from the Giano/Bishonen camp, it's definitely worth it.

Does anyone remember what Giano got blocked for in the first place? Incivility I know, but what specifically was he bugging FT2 about before he called Until a stalker?

Edit: I love this guy (an obvious sockpuppet):

Look this is a voluntary project. We're all here to build an encyclopedia. As far as I can see you're just pissed off at the arb ruling. I know nothing about you're history, but shit like this shouldn't be posted. This page shouldn't even exist for fucks sake...nor should arbcom...it's just people who want to make bad shit happen to people who have done stuff to them out of spite, that's why this page is here, to report crap like that, not to start it. Forget about it, you're just stirring up drama, go edit the mainspace.--Jaeger123 19:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Finally.

This post has been edited by KamrynMatika:

[KStreetSlave]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

[jorge]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

Actually he's more like the "responsible adult" trying to get a gang of adolescents to grow up.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

You got it exactly backwards.

[the fieryangel]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

You got it exactly backwards.

No, you've got it exactly backwards. I don't know why Giano even bothers any more, but I do know that when he finally gives up and goes over to the dark side that Wikipedia as an entity better be ready to be extremely scared....

Giano does not forget. Giano gets even. And Giano is not dumb.

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Could Giano be any more of a drama queen? I can't stand the guy. I hope he gets banned soon.

Wikipedia is one huge dramafest. But for once, here's drama that is actually important. Giano's battles generally flare up when he runs across incompetent morons who happen to be admins.

Until 1=2 is a good example. That guy hasn't created any significant content in thousands of edits, if ever. He just hangs out on irc socializing, then he struts around on-wiki engaging in endless pompous opining, wherever the drama is. He recently started following Giano around and picking on him. Not a good move.

Or FT2 - ask the guy a simple question and you get drenched in gallons of sewage. Then you ask the question again and he still fails to answer it. Then you ask a tough question and he gets snippy with you. His MO seems to be endless circumlocution and stream of conciseness bullshit obfuscation. But maybe that's generous, maybe he just can't think clearly. Any intelligent person who considers the meaning of words important would get fed up with him.

I don't think Giano is a drama queen, I think his spirit is invested in the project, along with thousands of his hours creating content, and he just can't stand to watch the less endowed members of the leadership piddle all over the project.

[badlydrawnjeff]

No, Giano's just Italian. don't you get it?

What the hell was that, seriously?

[Pumpkin Muffins]

No, Giano's just Italian. don't you get it?

What the hell was that, seriously?

en could do with a few more Italians like Giano.

This post has been edited by Pumpkin Muffins:

[wikiwhistle]

Could Giano be any more of a drama queen? I can't stand the guy. I hope he gets banned soon.

What's drama queen about it? The treatment he's received is not right, if it was from most other editors the clique would dislike it intensely.

[Pumpkin Muffins]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

You got it exactly backwards.

No, you've got it exactly backwards. I don't know why Giano even bothers any more, but I do know that when he finally gives up and goes over to the dark side that Wikipedia as an entity better be ready to be extremely scared....

Giano does not forget. Giano gets even. And Giano is not dumb.

Are you talking to me? Giano doesn't start fights. Go talk to him, interact with him. You will find that he's one of the nicest editors around - until you pick on him, or refuse to answer a simple question, or try to 'rule' him via #admins, or as an arbcom member agree to address something then wander off and forget about it.

Wikipedia has this incredible dichotomy; it's constructed of words, yet the leadership is never as good as their words. For example, the arbcom agreed to address #admins, then they completely flaked out, and now they are taking great umbrage when asked to account for it.

[Proabivouac]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

Funny, I see Giano as the kid that, when hit, hits back.

Are you talking to me? Giano doesn't start fights. Go talk to him, interact with him. You will find that he's one of the nicest editors around - until you pick on him, or refuse to answer a simple question, or try to 'rule' him via #admins, or as an arbcom member agree to address something then wander off and forget about it.

That's exactly right.

[dogbiscuit]

Well, if we are playing analogies, isn't Giano the naive member of the public who has spotted a corrupt police officer, taken it to the police complaints board, is told that the problem will be dealt with, and then wonders why he has been stopped and searched 20 times in the last 6 months, even though his complaint was acknowledged to be well grounded?

Or perhaps...


I'll get me coat.

[jorge]

Are you talking to me?

(IMG:http://www.peterhengl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/taxidriver.jpg)

[Proabivouac]

Edit: I love this guy (an obvious sockpuppet):

Look this is a voluntary project. We're all here to build an encyclopedia. As far as I can see you're just pissed off at the arb ruling. I know nothing about you're history, but shit like this shouldn't be posted. This page shouldn't even exist for fucks sake...nor should arbcom...it's just people who want to make bad shit happen to people who have done stuff to them out of spite, that's why this page is here, to report crap like that, not to start it. Forget about it, you're just stirring up drama, go edit the mainspace.--Jaeger123 19:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Jaeger123 is as obvious a sockpuppet - using ArbCom's tough new standard of any new username or alternate account - as they come:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...23&month=&year=

Immediately after creating this account, he jumps right into AfD’s, the help desk, AIV, requesting rollback, opposes an RfA and jumps onto ANI for that foul-mouthed screed.

He's a liar:

"I created my account on the 11 April after a few days as editing as an ip…"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=205115659

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

[Giano]

Are you talking to me?

(IMG:http://www.peterhengl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/taxidriver.jpg)

How you get that foto of me? - Don't let Daniel Brandt see it!

Giano

[Moulton]

Real life drama is God's default method of education, when all other conventional methods of education have utterly failed.

[the fieryangel]

Giano's being that kid that keeps poking people and then crying when they hit him back. It's irritating, childish, and incredibly transparent.

You got it exactly backwards.

No, you've got it exactly backwards. I don't know why Giano even bothers any more, but I do know that when he finally gives up and goes over to the dark side that Wikipedia as an entity better be ready to be extremely scared....

Giano does not forget. Giano gets even. And Giano is not dumb.

Are you talking to me? Giano doesn't start fights. Go talk to him, interact with him. You will find that he's one of the nicest editors around - until you pick on him, or refuse to answer a simple question, or try to 'rule' him via #admins, or as an arbcom member agree to address something then wander off and forget about it.

Wikipedia has this incredible dichotomy; it's constructed of words, yet the leadership is never as good as their words. For example, the arbcom agreed to address #admins, then they completely flaked out, and now they are taking great umbrage when asked to account for it.

Sorry, I misunderstood to what you were refering; that makes sense.

However, the day Giano decides to take out Wikipedia is the day that it's all over for them. I think that he's probably got the evidence to do it too....

[Moulton]

Note that Gandhi did not kick the British out of India.

He predicted that, in the end, the British would leave India of their own accord.

And he was right.

But first he needed to help the British appreciate that their practices in India were ill-conceived, ill-advised, and counter-productive of their core cultural values.

I'm not sure I can accurately recite the core values of Wikipedia, but if it's to produce a reputable and responsible online encyclopedia that rises to normative standards of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in media, then I daresay the current practices of the site are demonstrably ill-conceived, ill-advised and counter-productive of that presumptive objective.

[Random832]

Jaeger123 is as obvious a sockpuppet - using ArbCom's tough new standard of any new username or alternate account - as they come:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...23&month=&year=

"copyedit i think it's called" - are they TRYING to make it obvious? No-one but an established wikipedian would think that "copyedit" is a word unique to wikipedia that non-wikipedians would not be familiar with. Can anyone say "trying too hard"?

[wikiwhistle]

"copyedit i think it's called" - are they TRYING to make it obvious? No-one but an established wikipedian would think that "copyedit" is a word unique to wikipedia that non-wikipedians would not be familiar with. Can anyone say "trying too hard"?

I had to ask what they meant by 'copyedit', when someone used it on wiki. I've never heard it used in everyday life. I'm not questioning your saying that it is, I'm just saying that I have never come across anyone using it in the UK in everyday speech, the media or when I was at uni.

[Moulton]

I had not encountered the term, either.

And I confess I still don't know what it means, either on-wiki or elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Moulton:

[wikiwhistle]

I had not encountered the term, either.

And I confess I still don't know what it means, either on-wiki or elsewhere.

They mean when a wikipedian attempts to improve grammar, flow, style of a piece of writing I think. Sometimes hard to believe they do that (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eva Destruction]

Keeping this thread veering off topic, but "copyedit" is an Americanism which an editor from elsewhere wouldn't necessarily know; the English-English equivalent would be "subedit" (or just "sub"). Not that I doubt for one minute that J123 is an SPA...

[jorge]

I had to ask what they meant by 'copyedit', when someone used it on wiki. I've never heard it used in everyday life. I'm not questioning your saying that it is, I'm just saying that I have never come across anyone using it in the UK in everyday speech, the media or when I was at uni.

I assume it comes from editing copy in a newspaper. So, people who have some experience in print journalism would presumably be most familiar with it.

[written by he who wrote it]

Silly Giano. He only has Red clearance; he's not allowed to accuse Violets like FT2 of harassment. He should report for termination immediately.

[Peter Damian]

A long diatribe from FT on his talk page here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FT2...hreads_together

which is mostly a personal attack on Giano calculated to provoke the mercurial Italian into some witty comment that will be the end of his career (I predict it will be ended this week, if not today).

One thing I’ve noticed, and perhaps this explains why Giano finds FT2’s comments so disturbing. The sociologist Stanley Cohen coined the term ‘moral panic’ to characterise a reaction by the established order based on the false or exaggerated perception that some person or group, frequently a minority, is 1. deviant 2. poses a menace to the established order 3. Must be punished.

These 3 elements are in all of FT2’s anti-Giano speeches. Count how many times the expression ‘norm’ or ‘communal norm’ occurs in the speeches. 7 times in the last speech alone. This, and similar expressions, communicate that Giano is ‘deviant’ or outside the established norm. Then count how many times he says that Giano’s behaviour is harmful. E.g. “Incivility is not a "victimless" act” – a commonly used phrase used in connection with prostitution, sexual harassment, drug abuse &c. (He also links to the article ‘Victim Blaming’). Finally, count the open and veiled threats that he makes.

No wonder Giano is feeling uncomfortable.

[Random832]

"copyedit i think it's called" - are they TRYING to make it obvious? No-one but an established wikipedian would think that "copyedit" is a word unique to wikipedia that non-wikipedians would not be familiar with. Can anyone say "trying too hard"?

I had to ask what they meant by 'copyedit', when someone used it on wiki. I've never heard it used in everyday life. I'm not questioning your saying that it is, I'm just saying that I have never come across anyone using it in the UK in everyday speech, the media or when I was at uni.

Well then why use the term at all? Either use it or don't, feigned uncertainty isn't going to fool anyone.

[Moulton]

The sociologist Stanley Cohen coined the term ‘moral panic’ to characterise a reaction by the established order based on the false or exaggerated perception that some person or group, frequently a minority, is 1. deviant 2. poses a menace to the established order 3. Must be punished.

Interesting. Compare Cohen's notion of 'moral panic' to Victor Turner's concept of liminal social drama and to Rene Girard's notion of alienation and scapegoating.

[ColScott]

Could Giano be any more of a drama queen? I can't stand the guy. I hope he gets banned soon.

If it's only for the featured articles that we're keeping him around, I'll happily go and write some on architecture or whatever - if it means we get some peace and quiet from the endless histrionics that come from the Giano/Bishonen camp, it's definitely worth it.

Does anyone remember what Giano got blocked for in the first place? Incivility I know, but what specifically was he bugging FT2 about before he called Until a stalker?

Edit: I love this guy (an obvious sockpuppet):

Look this is a voluntary project. We're all here to build an encyclopedia. As far as I can see you're just pissed off at the arb ruling. I know nothing about you're history, but shit like this shouldn't be posted. This page shouldn't even exist for fucks sake...nor should arbcom...it's just people who want to make bad shit happen to people who have done stuff to them out of spite, that's why this page is here, to report crap like that, not to start it. Forget about it, you're just stirring up drama, go edit the mainspace.--Jaeger123 19:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Finally.

Until is not a stalker
H is a fat stoned loser named Ryan Bushby who should be in jail doing 2 to 7 in British Columbia.

[Peter Damian]

Until is not a stalker
H is a fat stoned loser named Ryan Bushby who should be in jail doing 2 to 7 in British Columbia.

Delicately put as always, Colonel Scott.

Meanwhile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...st_for_eyeballs

FT2 has just advertised his nice speech on ANI. Already Elonka and the mathematically-challenged 1=2 have voiced hearty approval.

[dogbiscuit]

Meanwhile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...st_for_eyeballs

FT2 has just advertised his nice speech on ANI. Already Elonka and the mathematically-challenged 1=2 have voiced hearty approval.

It didn't pass the Duk test (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Wow, that's the biggest heap of steaming crap I've ever tried to wade through.

[Peter Damian]

Let's have that in full:

Wow, that's the biggest heap of steaming crap I've ever tried to wade through. There are too many problems to document, so I'll note just one: in the ''Others' views'' section you cherry picked whatever comments supported your view, except one of Giano's which you annotated with a critical comment (all the others you let stand on their own). FT2, that section should be renamed ''Views of people who see things my way''. --[[User talk:Duk|Duk]] 16:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Does it pass the new civility test, though?

[Peter Damian]

Random832 has now edited out some of FT2’s words (on FT2’s talk page – can he do that?). He removes FT2’s gloss “Note the bad faith assumptions and attacks (emphasis added), especially in the context of the above <ul>prior</ul> explanation by the blocking admin. This is what's not okay” with the comment ("Others' views", not "FT2's views".)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207389665

In fact the whole page is now one gigantic edit war with Random reverting back, Bishonen weighing in, 1=2 &c. Very good fun.

But that log quote wasn't my main point, the first three lines of my post were: "Holler", is it, FT2? That's what the regular user over whom you, as an arb, have so much power, is doing, according to you? You should be ashamed. You're out of control. You seem to have worn out any common human decency you started out with. Have you quite forgotten FloNight's warning that these are human beings you speak of? [[38] Please try to take that on board, it's seriously meant. Please take my reference to FloNight seriously, for instance. By doing that, I think you would interest people more than by your repetition of the untruth that "Bishonen never replies". BTW, my "most people simply don't have an eye for FT2's bullying" may be a bit harsh. Many people don't, indeed. But I think you may discover that most of them do. Bishonen | talk 15:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC).

If there is evidence of FT2 bullying anyone then you should present that evidence instead of just mentioning it. I have not seen such behavior and if there is evidence then it should be investigated. I take such possibilities very seriously. (1 == 2)Until 15:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you? Then—I know it's a mouthful and a half to ask—but, then, read through this page. Nearly all of it is by FT2. Test your eye. Bishonen | talk 15:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC).

Yes, I do that such possibilities very seriously. If the content of this page is your evidence, then I must say that your eye can see what mine cannot. I have been watching this page for some time now and I am glad that the content of this page does not seem to support the argument that FT2 is bullying anyone. (1 == 2)Until 16:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[BobbyBombastic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Adm...st_for_eyeballs

FT2 has just advertised his nice speech on ANI. Already Elonka and the mathematically-challenged 1=2 have voiced hearty approval.

Updated link here. I assume that, in usual FT2 fashion, he edited the thread title approximately 50 different times. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Joy]

With the way FT2 is going, he may well be the one ousted from Wikipedia and not Giano!

I bet the IRC people are running around yelling "Stop it, FT2! You're not doing us any favors!"

[Lar]

Silly Giano. He only has Red clearance; he's not allowed to accuse Violets like FT2 of harassment. He should report for termination immediately.

I think that's the first Paranoia reference I've seen here... awesome!

[Giano]

Silly Giano. He only has Red clearance; he's not allowed to accuse Violets like FT2 of harassment. He should report for termination immediately.

I think that's the first Paranoia reference I've seen here... awesome!

Sadly, I see FT2 has decided to start renewed attacks on me on his talk page, his collections of half-truths and distortions grow ever greater. I'm reliably told his actions have the backing of the Arbcom, and are a deliberate ploy to provoke me into either leaving or giving them the ammunition to block me. God knows if it is true or not, but they certainly don't seem very keen to reign him in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207471226. Even after I tried to start editing again, the Arbs had to keep needling away - there is a limit to the continuous haranguing, eventually, even I start to wonder what is the point?

Giano

[Moulton]

Looks like a fairly conventional instance of a WP-style Spammish Inquisition.

[Jon Awbrey]

eventually, even I start to wonder what is the point?

Giano,

¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤
¤ Walk Toward The Light ¤
¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jon Awbrey:

[Giggy]

Note that Gandhi did not kick the British out of India.

He predicted that, in the end, the British would leave India of their own accord.

And he was right.

But first he needed to help the British appreciate that their practices in India were ill-conceived, ill-advised, and counter-productive of their core cultural values.

I'm not sure I can accurately recite the core values of Wikipedia, but if it's to produce a reputable and responsible online encyclopedia that rises to normative standards of accuracy, excellence, and ethics in media, then I daresay the current practices of the site are demonstrably ill-conceived, ill-advised and counter-productive of that presumptive objective.

In an ideal world (OK, more ideal than the Wikiworld) that would work. The problem is that our Brit (FT2) won't be leaving India (Wikipedia (or the ArbCom...however you want to see it)) any time soon because we 1) don't have a Gandhi (there are too many people who would rather create new drama then try to point out to FT2 that the current practices suck) and 2) don't have "consensus" (that word is so misused sometimes that it's not funny) that the current practices do suck.

1 could be solved by Giano, if (and I say this as one of his supporters) he were to slow down a little and try and make more thought out, targeted, attacks on FT2's actions. His postings now are great for people on his side because we understand where he's coming from, and agree with him, but they just piss off the other side and get him labeled a drama queen (ref: Naerii earlier in this thread).

2 will take a great deal of discussion to solve, and I for one would be very impressed if it could stay on topic. Again, I think some members of Giano's side (I dunno...maybe I would if the discussion was crappy enough) would shout "IRC" again (and conversely, the other side would probably almost certainly do something naughty on IRC during the discussion).

Living in Australia as a 16 year old, my knowledge of history is minimal (mainly because the curriculum here is pathetic in such areas), so I'll let someone else give a good historical analogy for the position we're currently in.

My analogy is simply a (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif) because I actually do believe in Wikipedia. Just no so much in the current administration of it.

[Edit] - Just a thought...since JoshuaZ is now at RfAr (link), anyone ever considered requesting arbitration on FT2? Can't say I'm overly fond of the idea myself, yet, but I imagine some are. Curious if they speak up (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[Edit 2] - Shouldn't this be in the FT2 subforum?

This post has been edited by Giggy:

[Moulton]

I don't think Giano has the temperament to play the role of Gandhi.

But if he wanted to, I'd be more than willing to be one of his coaches on the theory and practice of civil disobedience.

Not that it matters, but I live just a few miles from Walden Pond.

[Peter Damian]

Sadly, I see FT2 has decided to start renewed attacks on me on his talk page, his collections of half-truths and distortions grow ever greater. I'm reliably told his actions have the backing of the Arbcom, and are a deliberate ploy to provoke me into either leaving or giving them the ammunition to block me. God knows if it is true or not, but they certainly don't seem very keen to reign him in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207471226. Even after I tried to start editing again, the Arbs had to keep needling away - there is a limit to the continuous haranguing, eventually, even I start to wonder what is the point?

Giano

As I mentioned in an earlier post, these renewed speeches seem like overt attacks. He constantly accuses you of 'violating community norms', i.e. you are a deviant, he repeats over and over the supposed harm you are doing, and he makes these constant insinuations and threats of community ban.

However a number of people also seem to be questioning this.

I would advise extreme caution here, Giano. E.g. you remove a long part of the speech here

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207471226

with the comment 'removing more lies'). Do be careful.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[Jon Awbrey]

Sadly, I see FT2 has decided to start renewed attacks on me on his talk page, his collections of half-truths and distortions grow ever greater. I'm reliably told his actions have the backing of the Arbcom, and are a deliberate ploy to provoke me into either leaving or giving them the ammunition to block me. God knows if it is true or not, but they certainly don't seem very keen to reign him in User Talk:FT2. Even after I tried to start editing again, the Arbs had to keep needling away — there is a limit to the continuous haranguing, eventually, even I start to wonder what is the point?

Giano

As I mentioned in an earlier post, these renewed speeches seem like overt attacks. He constantly accuses you of 'violating community norms', i.e. you are a deviant, he repeats over and over the supposed harm you are doing, and he makes these constant insinuations and threats of community ban.

However a number of people also seem to be questioning this.

I would advise extreme caution here, Giano. E.g. you remove a long part of the speech here

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207471226

with the comment 'removing more lies'). Do be careful.

Giano,

Yes, be careful about taking advice from people who are in meta*denial about the irredeemable character of Wikipedia.

Be at peace — it is already too late and there is nothing you could have done — by the time you become aware of being non-confluent with the Cabal you are already a 4gone goner whether you know it or not.

Like I said —

¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤
¤ Walk Toward The Light ¤
¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jon Awbrey:

[Milton Roe]

I don't think Giano has the temperament to play the role of Gandhi.

But if he wanted to, I'd be more than willing to be one of his coaches on the theory and practice of civil disobedience.

Not that it matters, but I live just a few miles from Walden Pond.

Bah. Real Stir Cred takes months, years. No overnights.

[Start up Pinafore Music-- First Lord's Song]

When I was a lad I went over yond
And built me a cabin on Walden Pond
For 28 dollars and some odd cents
My house I mainly built with just the Common Sense
(His house he mainly built with just his Common Sense)
But I built that house so simple-y
That now I am a lit'ery celebrity

From a pencil factory prosperity
I grew my rows of beans in osterity
I civily disobeyed and I went to jail
And my friends all paid my taxes out to make my bail
(And his friends all paid his taxes out to make his bail)
They bailed me out so witily
That now I am a lit'ery celebrity ..


(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif) Can't keep this up at this hour.

This post has been edited by Milton Roe:

[Peter Damian]

Giano,

Yes, be careful about taking advice from people who are in meta*denial about the irredeemable character of Wikipedia.

Be at peace — it is already too late and there is nothing you could have done — by the time you become aware of being non-confluent with the Cabal you are already a 4gone goner whether you know it or not.

Like I said —

Jon unlike you I don't believe that there are any organisations or people who are irredeemable. There is just cock-up and confusion, very rarely conspiracy.

On Giano being a goner I see that the Palace of Monaco

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207518517

will be a featured article on April 28. I wonder if that will be the date ArbCom has designated for his banning.

[Giano]

I don't think Giano has the temperament to play the role of Gandhi.

But if he wanted to, I'd be more than willing to be one of his coaches on the theory and practice of civil disobedience.

Not that it matters, but I live just a few miles from Walden Pond.

No, I don't have Gandhi's temperament, but I do have better dress sense. Seriously, I am not surprised by the many editors who are now voicing views opposing the existence and deplorable behaviour of the Admin's chatroom. Singling just one comment out is probably unfair, but yet another content editor joined the fray today with this comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207507385, I thought was very perceptive. If the Arbs continue to callously ignore and discard so many of the writing community then they will ultimately have to pay for it. There are a several people emerging now as calm, wise observers and commentators of this situation. If J Wales is clever he will kick FT2 and one or two of the others straight of the Arbcom and appoint a couple of these emerging commentators. The Arbcom needs squaring and licking into shape, fast, before even more good editors depart because at the end of the day - does anything productive ever emerge from the IRC they are so desperate to preserve at the expense of the content?

Giano

[Proabivouac]

There are a several people emerging now as calm, wise observers and commentators of this situation. If J Wales is clever he will kick FT2 and one or two of the others straight of the Arbcom and appoint a couple of these emerging commentators.

Who would you have in mind to be appointed to ArbCom?

[Giano]

There are a several people emerging now as calm, wise observers and commentators of this situation. If J Wales is clever he will kick FT2 and one or two of the others straight of the Arbcom and appoint a couple of these emerging commentators.

Who would you have in mind to be appointed to ArbCom?

A lot of people have posted some very salient and perceptive facts on the subject. Some of whom I hardly know. others I know far better, so off the top of my head it would be unfair to single any two out, or even three. I think a lot of people would be very happy to see Geogre dispensing some of his down to earth wisdom from the Arbcom, anyway singling anyone could be handing them a poisoned chalice. The behaviour of the existing Arbs would not alter over night just because some improving influences have arrived. Look how much notice they take of Brad and Paul August - whoever is newly appointed has to be strong and forthright, unafraid and able to throw the punches. To be quite clear though, I do not include myself, if I am ever appointed to the Arbcom - I want it to be by vote, and once the chatroom is abolished my opposes will be increased by about 1000% - so that scenario is frankly unlikely. I think, I'm more of a catalyst than an Arb.

Giano

[Peter Damian]

DrKiernan is also able to speak FT2-language, saying e.g. “You cannot help build an inclusive community by engraining division.” where he manages to get the words ‘inclusive’ and ‘community’ in the same sentence.

Maybe you should learn to speak this, Giano. You say “Seriously, I am not surprised by the many editors who are now voicing views opposing the existence and deplorable behaviour of the Admin's chatroom.”

which translates into FT2 as:

“Seriously, a number of this community are now saying ‘that’s enough’ to the violation of community norms taking place in the Admin's chatroom. No, that’s not what Wikipedia is about. We need to put this behind us. Say ‘that’s not OK’. Wikipedia is not a battleground’ (&c for five more paragraphs).

[Giano]

DrKiernan is also able to speak FT2-language, saying e.g. “You cannot help build an inclusive community by engraining division.” where he manages to get the words ‘inclusive’ and ‘community’ in the same sentence.

Maybe you should learn to speak this, Giano. You say “Seriously, I am not surprised by the many editors who are now voicing views opposing the existence and deplorable behaviour of the Admin's chatroom.”

which translates into FT2 as:

“Seriously, a number of this community are now saying ‘that’s enough’ to the violation of community norms taking place in the Admin's chatroom. No, that’s not what Wikipedia is about. We need to put this behind us. Say ‘that’s not OK’. Wikipedia is not a battleground’ (&c for five more paragraphs).

"I am endeavouring my best to be resolving a situation of potential dangerrosity to the ideals and aims of the wikipedia norms, which will be of benificacios use to the wider community"

No, bugger it, I can't speak it.

Giano

[Moulton]

Giano, if you think ArbCom is likely to show you to the door, you might want to work on your Dithyramb for the big production number.

Here is the one I used...

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down

Barsoom Tork is my name, and I rode on the paintball train,
Til so much rivalry came and tore up the tracks again.
In the fall of skandalon, we were rollin, just trollin for bait.
I took the train to Wiki, that hell, it was a time I remember, oh so well.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Back with Dave at Epiphany, and one day he said to me,
"Moulton, quick, come see, a-there goes Filll on a spree!"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if Hrafn's no good.
Just take what ya need and efface the rest,
But they should never have wiped out the very best.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Like my father before me, I'm a working man,
And like ZayZay before me, I took a rebel stand.
Well, he was just pissed off, proud and brave,
But paintball laid him in his grave,
I swear by the verse below my feet,
You can't raise the Torkel back up when its in defeat.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

CopyClef 2007 Joan Baez and Barsoom Tork Associates.

[Giano]

Giano, if you think ArbCom is likely to show you to the door, you might want to work on your Dithyramb for the big production number.

Here is the one I used...

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down

Barsoom Tork is my name, and I rode on the paintball train,
Til so much rivalry came and tore up the tracks again.
In the fall of skandalon, we were rollin, just trollin for bait.
I took the train to Wiki, that hell, it was a time I remember, oh so well.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Back with Dave at Epiphany, and one day he said to me,
"Moulton, quick, come see, a-there goes Filll on a spree!"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if Hrafn's no good.
Just take what ya need and efface the rest,
But they should never have wiped out the very best.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

Like my father before me, I'm a working man,
And like ZayZay before me, I took a rebel stand.
Well, he was just pissed off, proud and brave,
But paintball laid him in his grave,
I swear by the verse below my feet,
You can't raise the Torkel back up when its in defeat.

The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the bells were ringing,
The Night They Drove Old Moulton Down, and all the people were stingin'.
They went
Na,
Na, na, na, na, na,
Blah, blah, buh blah,
Buh blah blah, blah blah

CopyClef 2007 Joan Baez and Barsoom Tork Associates.

I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical, I don't think the Arbcom have selected a precise date, per-se. However, there is a forthcoming unhappy event that certain people don't want me to be arownd for.

Giano

[wikiwhistle]

I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical, I don't think the Arbcom have selected a precise date, per-se. However, there is a forthcoming unhappy event that certain people don't want me to be arownd for.

Giano

Oh, what's that? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Moulton]

I don't sing, but I'm sure you are very musical...

I have no musical talent whatsoever. I can't carry a tune, can't play a musical instrument, nor can I compose music.

I rely on MIDI for musical accompaniment.

Click here for the MIDI accompaniment to Moulton's Dithyramb.

[Peter Damian]

No, bugger it, I can't speak it.
Giano

OK lesson 2. Let’s look on in wonder and learningment at FT2’s most recent post. Two uses of the word ‘communal’, ‘many users’, 'tens of thousands of users' and more, to show how universal the support is for FT2’s magnanimous and selfless efforts. Note the whole sentences enclosed in quotes, as if they were the words of other wise and good people on the project, who are shaking their heads in sadness (in fact FT2 has made these quotes up, but no one is going to notice).

References to the harm this is doing to the community. People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’ (you see, anyone can use the quote trick too). “There are no side in this”.

So it’s easy to “speak FT2”. The only problem is that it makes any intelligent human being want to throw up in a bucket. The bit that begins “The moment he can say to someone ….” is actually so vomit-inducing I am going to head for the toilets.

Sadly there have been solid, consistent attempts to respect this. To discuss as a human being, to make allowances, to plead and try to help and to recognize strengths and weaknesses, constantly. Many users, not least myself since December. Problem's been they all got ignored. I stood back and did nothing, let others handle things this time. That got this and this. No recognition of human beings being hurt, and project members driven off. Compare and contrast that when Bishonen posts what looks like real evidence and says I'm wrong, I went immediately to check if she's right, and was completely prepared to take that concern up on her behalf if she's right and I'm mistaken. (She wasn't in this case, but anyone can make a mistake. It was in good faith.) That's what's overlooked; there's no sides in this. It's just that if you drive off or intimidate everyone else, then people who can ignore attacks will probably be the ones who step back in. I stepped back completely until I actually saw a user being driven off the wiki. Since other attempts had failed, it ends up as simply recognizing and addressing how his stance impacts the project. Understanding of the need is what's sought, that'll change everything, obviously. It's a bit like a sea-wall... whether the waves lap on the beach, or hurl themselves against it, the sea-wall isn't "attacking" the waves. It's just drawing a firm line. The harder Giano plays the more he'll bounce; the more he listens to the communal need the less he'll bounce (or even get any admin attention at all). The moment he can say to someone "please help me to avoid problems" or "is this a sensible post", and really wants to avoid them (or says "message heard" rather than leap to conclusions), he'll have all the help he needs. Simple equation. He has support, if he'd just listen to it. Unfortunately (and I wish it were otherwise), right now the situation is "personal appeals and explanations haven't actually worked from any user, nor has any form of appeal".
The only thing being said, when all's said and done, is something I hope we can all agree on. There's tens or hundreds of thousands of users and two thousand admins who have the communally agreed right to reasonable dialog without unhelpful hostile assumptions, and they count too. Not accepting other users saying so, driving people away, then complaining at the admins you do get..... hmm. FT2 (Talk | email) 15:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[wikiwhistle]

People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’

As opposed to animals being hurt? Who of course love it really (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Peter Damian]

People being driven off by Giano, ‘human beings being hurt’

As opposed to animals being hurt? Who of course love it really (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

We need only quote the words of the Wise One himself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FT2/asa

The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[Peter Damian]

Oh but what’s this. Giano has not heeded these words at all but has instead blanked them

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207629018

with the comment (removing rantings of a disruptive troll)

Did he not notice the warning of the sea waves “bashing against the solid sea wall”, at all? “That’s not OK”.

But wait, FT2 has reverted back, like the solid sea wall that he is. Or is he the waves and Giano King Canute. All these metaphors confuse. Meanwhile Carcaroth has butted in and objected that there are not 'tens of thousands' of users at all, and that the number of solid, quality contributors is more like 5. Shortly to be 4, surely, after this showdown.

You said ''"tens or hundreds of thousands of users"'' - actually, I doubt this, and your wide range from tens to hundreds shows that you are wildly speculating (as are all of us). The real figure you want there is the number of people who interact with admins, or whose activity rises to the level where admins get involved. Also, there is unseen damage, where people silently leave, and there is unseen activity as well, where people quietly edit and never need to interact with admins or even other users. I suspect that the active, interacting core of established editors is smaller than people realise. Anyway, thanks, as always, for your replies here. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 15:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[wikiwhistle]

(FT2)The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable

According to the perpetrators.

[Peter Damian]

(FT2)The notion that all sexual acts with animals are abusive is usually backed by the idea that animals can in no way consent to what is happening and that humans abuse the position they have in relation to the animal to force them in to participating. However, animals are considered to be able to find sexual contact with humans pleasurable

According to the perpetrators.

Cease this absurd and ridiculous speculation.

[Jon Awbrey]

Giano,

Yes, be careful about taking advice from people who are in meta*denial about the irredeemable character of Wikipedia.

Be at peace — it is already too late and there is nothing you could have done — by the time you become aware of being non-confluent with the Cabal you are already a 4gone goner whether you know it or not.

Like I said —

¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤
¤ Walk Toward The Light ¤
¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤ ↑ ¤

Jon, unlike you I don't believe that there are any organisations or people who are irredeemable. There is just cock-up and confusion, very rarely conspiracy.

On Giano being a goner I see that the Palace of Monaco

Talk:Prince's Palace of Monaco

will be a featured article on April 28. I wonder if that will be the date ArbCom has designated for his banning.

Peter,

I am a Designer And Theorist Of Systems (DATOS) — more armchair of late than formerly, but my critique of any given Social Technical Architecture (STA) is based on experience with the ways that systems work and the ways that systems crash.

Systems do crash. If you don't believe that some systems are irredeemable — speaking as I always do in pragmatic terms — then I have an old TI99/4A that I'd like to sell you, real cheap.

Systems headed for the cliff of irrecoverable failure almost always give us signs and exhibit the arch-typical symptoms that hell-bent systems almost always do.

We ignore the warning signs at our peril, though it may be the peril of nothing but time that were better spent elsewhere.

Nothing but time …

Ay, there's the rub —

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jon Awbrey:

[guy]

I suspect that the active, interacting core of established editors is smaller than people realise.

That's because at least 50% are socks.

[Giggy]

And 75% of the rest spend most of their time around ANI and ArbCom stuff. Hence there appear to be so few people actually doing useful things.

[Milton Roe]

OK lesson 2. Let’s look on in wonder and learningment at FT2’s most recent post. So it’s easy to “speak FT2”. The only problem is that it makes any intelligent human being want to throw up in a bucket. The bit that begins “The moment he can say to someone ….” is actually so vomit-inducing I am going to head for the toilets.

It might be helpful to add a Pythonesque lisp. A sort of high-church Episcopalian self-help-book-ese, with a sleepy English essay assignment to compaaawe and contwaaast...

Sadwy thewe have been solid, consistent attempts to wespect this. To discuss as a human being, to make awowances, to pweeead and twy to help and to wecognize stwengths and weaknesses, constantwy. Many users, not least myself since December. Pwoblem's been they all got ignowwed. I stood back and did nothing, let others handle things this time. That got this and this. No wecognition of human beings being hurt, and pwoject members dwiiiven off. Compaaawe and contwaaast that when Bishonen posts what looks like weal evidence and says I'm wrong, I went immediately to check if she's wiiight, and was compwwweeetely prepaaawwwed to take that concern up on her behalf if she's wwwight and I'm mistaken.

A lot of people have posted some very salient and perceptive facts on the subject. Some of whom I hardly know. others I know far better, so off the top of my head it would be unfair to single any two out, or even three. I think a lot of people would be very happy to see Geogre dispensing some of his down to earth wisdom from the Arbcom, anyway singling anyone could be handing them a poisoned chalice.

Aha! Is that the chalice with the palace? Or the flagon with the dragon? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by Milton Roe:

[Peter Damian]

FT2's essay on his talk page has been blanked by him, at request. Giano (see his talk page) has been asked to apologise for the 'troll' edit summary. Giano has refused.

[edit] There is a caviarish reference to something 'full and frank' about FT2 he is going to say this morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207661607

Someone else comments 'Oh man, don't do that - zero sum for you and especially FT2'. What does he mean?


Oh yes and I have opened a 'Peter Damian' account at WP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Peter_Damian

and left a message on Flo's page. Had another mail from Angela saying Wales was too busy and why not try the arbcom. So here goes.

This post has been edited by Peter Damian:

[The Joy]

FT2's essay on his talk page has been blanked by him, at request. Giano (see his talk page) has been asked to apologise for the 'troll' edit summary. Giano has refused.

[edit] There is a caviarish reference to something 'full and frank' about FT2 he is going to say this morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=207661607

Someone else comments 'Oh man, don't do that - zero sum for you and especially FT2'. What does he mean?


Oh yes and I have opened a 'Peter Damian' account at WP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Peter_Damian

and left a message on Flo's page. Had another mail from Angela saying Wales was too busy and why not try the arbcom. So here goes.

Shouldn't your account read "blocked indefinitely in December 2007"?

Though if WScribe has his way, it won't be there long. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sad.gif)

[Moulton]

I didn't find the zero-sum remark, but it probably should be negative-sum anyway.

A zero-sum game is one where one player wins what the other one loses. (Win-Lose)

In these dramas, almost without exception, everyone loses.

It's uncommonly hard to craft a win-win game (a game of cooperation and creativity).

[Peter Damian]

I didn't find the zero-sum remark, but it probably should be negative-sum anyway.

A zero-sum game is one where one player wins what the other one loses. (Win-Lose)

In these dramas, almost without exception, everyone loses.

It's uncommonly hard to craft a win-win game (a game of cooperation and creativity).

Agreed. I think he meant 'lose lose' situation

[wikiwhistle]

It might be helpful to add a Pythonesque lisp. A sort of high-church Episcopalian self-help-book-ese, with a sleepy English essay assignment to compaaawe and contwaaast...

You could alternate that with a sort of Tony Blair with a fanatical glare, perhaps with hand gestures accordingly. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[thekohser]

... I have an old TI99/4A that I'd like to sell you, real cheap.

Jon -- funny you should mention this. My sister (co-developer of Wikipedia Review) and I both learned our first basic programming skills on TI99/4A's that we each bought, when I was (I guess) about 12 years old.

We still refer to Wikipedia Review as our "TI99/4A for the 21st century". That's more as a personal nudge to each other -- hopefully not as an admission that Wikipedia Review is a failed system.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Greg