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SlimVirgin's melt down on the WikiEN-l -
     
 
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> SlimVirgin's melt down on the WikiEN-l, too much BS for even David Gerard
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Looks like Slimmy is getting dressed down on WikiEN-l:
-----------------------------

<<Slimmy>> There was no reason at all to check the first account(s) that Lar checked.
<David Gerard> ... Please detail why you feel you are immune to checkuser.
-----------------------------

<<<Slimmy>>> Both the first and second editor were affected by this. The first abandoned the checked accounts because Lar is not trusted.
<<Luna>> Lar is not trusted? Why not? By whom? ...
<David Gerard>Indeed. Casual slander is not a robust method of policy formation.
-----------------------------

<David Katz>SlimVirgin has abusively sockpuppeted before - as Sweet Blue Water if my memory is correct - a sock which she tag teamed with on articles and used to vote twice in some instances. I don't think she's in a position to get self righteous that anyone would think she might be sockpuppeting again, particularly as she's never apologized or explained the SWB sock.
----------------------------

And for the grand finale, from Larry himself;

Sarah:

I've been mostly staying out of addressing your allegations because I rather
hoped that, given the amount of discussion and investigation there was about
the whole thing, that this matter had been settled some time ago. I also
refrained from giving detail in order to preserve the privacy of all
involved as much as possible. I intend to hew to that and not give detail
here either. However I just cannot allow this canard of yours to stand
without correction.

> There was no reason at all to check the first account(s) that
> Lar checked. If you know some of the details of the case, and
> I assume you do (though I also know you don't know all of
> them), you'll know that he had no grounds *whatsoever* to
> perform the first check,

Patently false, and repeating it won't make it true. There was a very good
reason for the initial check. I performed the initial check based on my
judgement that a good and valid request for a check had been presented to
me. An ombudsman reviewed the request I was given and agreed with me that I
had good reason to run the check. You conveniently fail to mention that.

> or the second

As every good checkuser does, I follow checks where they lead. And when they
lead to surprising results, as this one did, I don't go public without close
consultation with my colleagues. Which is what happened in this case. After
consultation, there was no need to make the results public or act further on
them, and every good reason to not do so. You conveniently fail to mention
that as well.

> but it was assumed and hoped that both checks might lead to me.

You assume too much, I think. Unless of course your real reason for raising
this is to try to damage my reputation in order to win unrelated disputes, a
tactic that I think will increasingly fail you going forward, as more people
realise you do so.

> He performed the check upon the private request of a troublemaker who has
been harassing me for over a year.

I think you overplay the harassment card sometimes. This is one of those
times.

Others have advised you that this matter is settled. Let it be. Stop trying
to smear people.

Larry Pieniazek







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Quite frankly, Jayjg's is what disgusts me the most. Attacking someone via their spouse? How low-handed do you have to go?

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I said something about this earlier but declined to name Lar's wife - she did not need to be brought into this - http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showt...indpost&p=94062

Jayjg hasn't embellished the truth. In fact, he's leaving out some details to save what little face Lar has left.
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QUOTE(Wikileaker @ Sun 20th July 2008, 7:36am) *

I said something about this earlier but declined to name Lar's wife - she did not need to be brought into this - http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showt...indpost&p=94062

Jayjg hasn't embellished the truth. In fact, he's leaving out some details to save what little face Lar has left.


I'd say Lar has plenty of face. Jay's intervention was sadly typical, in that it was a fairly inoccuous thing (his wife!), but phrased most accusingly. How on earth did Jay get to be a checkuser and privy to all this information?
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Do you not consider leaking checkuser information to be a heinous act? This is nothing new for Lar.

Try and put yourself in Slimvirgin's shoes here. You've had your privacy invaded for no good reason, then had that private information spread around to third parties who have no involvement. I hate to admit it, but this is one of the few times where the callous bitch is unequivocally in the right.
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QUOTE(Wikileaker @ Sun 20th July 2008, 7:36am) *

I said something about this earlier but declined to name Lar's wife…

Hate to pry, but…who's Lar's wife?
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He has it on his userpage, it's not private User:Espousequecido
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Heat
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http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikie...uly/094603.html

QUOTE
I don't feel I'm immune, but I do feel there should be a presumption
against long-term contributors being checked, unless there are serious
grounds to suspect abuse.

But I am not complaining about the check against me. I'm complaining
about the check against the other two. I have their permission to
explain further.

Lar was (he said) contacted privately by Mackan79 and was asked to
perform a check on Wikitumnus and Crum375, on the grounds that they
appeared to be sockpuppets.

Mackan79 is an editor who has been trying to cause me problems for
about 12-18 months, ever since Dmcdevit blocked him for 3RR and he
blamed me, both for the block in the first place, and for not
persuading Dmcdevit to unblock him. I assume that his interest in Crum
derived from his interest in me, and that the involvement of
Wikitumnus was to give him and Lar a back door into a check of Crum.

The only "evidence" Lar had of a relationship between Wiktumnus and
Crum was that Wikitumnus had ONCE reverted vandalism from Crum's talk
page in November 2007 -- four months before Mackan asked Lar for a
check. Here is the diff of the "evidence"
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=172790134
Here is Mackan79 four months later, in March 2008, saying that
Wikitumnus appears to be another user.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=192350698

It was on this basis that Lar performed a check of Wikitumnus a few
days later at Mackan's request, later telling Wikitumnus and other
checkusers and ArbCom members that there were grounds to believe that
Wikitumnus was Crum. This is a clear fishing expedition, because there
is *nothing* about that diff that would give rise to a suspicion of
sockpuppetry. Wikitumnus had never edited the same articles as Crum,
had never voted with him, had never supported him, had never shown up
on noticeboards to comment on him, or anything else.

Personally, I have no problem with allowing checkuser to be used for
fishing *so long as the policy makes clear that it may be so used*
because then editors can arrange to use open or closed proxies if they
don't want their real IPs to become known during random checks. What I
object to is the policy saying one thing, and checkusers doing
another.

When Lar performed his check of Wikitumnus, he discovered that it was
an established editor who is well known to Lar, and who had abandoned
their original account for various reasons. He knew *for certain* that
this person was not Crum375. Yet he went on to peform the check of
Crum anyway. If you want to say that, once he had checked Crum, he had
reason to check me, then fine. Ignore the check of me. But his check
of Wikitumnus was made on the flimsiest of grounds. And his check of
Crum was made *on no grounds whatsoever*. That the request was made by
a known troublemaker makes things even worse, but even if you ignore
that too, you are left with two checks performed for no reason.

Lar compounded the error by telling his wife the real identity of
Wikitumnus. Lar's wife is another Wikipedian, not someone Wikitumnus
has had any contact with, and also not someone Wikitumnus would choose
to reveal their identity to. Wiktumnus was extremely upset about that
aspect of the incident, and it was a violation of the privacy policy,
although not one serious enough that the Ombudsman Commission wanted
to act on.

The result is that Wikitumnus felt they had to abandon their account.
I recall an absolute storm when Durova blocked !!, an established
editor who had abandoned his original account, but who felt his
identity was compromised by the block. That is exactly the situation
we have here -- an established editor with a new account is checked
for no reason, and as a result feels unable to continue with the
account in case their identity leaks out.

The question is why Lar is allowed simply to ignore the checkuser
policy, and why, when he does, other checkusers support him in that.
If there is no peer pressure on checkusers to conform to the policy,
and there is no Ombudsman who can look at checkuser policy violations,
the only protection we have is ArbCom. But (I believe) all ArbCom
members have checkuser and are on the checkuser mailing list, so they
could have acted against Lar when the issue was raised there (at my
request, among others), but they didn't. They're therefore unlikely to
act when it's brought before them in another venue.

The bottom line is that editors are left with no realistic way to
complain about a violation of the checkuser policy, which means that
it may as well not exist.

Sarah
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everyking
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QUOTE(Wikileaker @ Sun 20th July 2008, 9:41am) *

Do you not consider leaking checkuser information to be a heinous act? This is nothing new for Lar.

Try and put yourself in Slimvirgin's shoes here. You've had your privacy invaded for no good reason, then had that private information spread around to third parties who have no involvement. I hate to admit it, but this is one of the few times where the callous bitch is unequivocally in the right.


Even if there was "no good reason", her reaction has been outrageous. I'm sure users are checkusered all the time for inadequate reasons--most of us just don't have the connections to know when this has been done. I can only assume that I've been checkusered, probably many times, given my history of disputes with the site's elite, but I'll probably never know for sure, because I don't have a trusty checkuser sidekick like SV does. Considering what we know about SV--her long-term abuse of the project and its community, including at least one case of sockpuppetry--there is every reason to assume that in this case there was a perfectly good reason for the check. Furthermore, I consider Lar to be reasonably reliable, while SV is completely unreliable.
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QUOTE(Heat @ Sun 20th July 2008, 5:06am) *

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikie...uly/094603.html

QUOTE
Lar compounded the error by telling his wife the real identity of
Wikitumnus. Lar's wife is another Wikipedian, not someone Wikitumnus
has had any contact with, and also not someone Wikitumnus would choose
to reveal their identity to. Wiktumnus was extremely upset about that
aspect of the incident, and it was a violation of the privacy policy,
although not one serious enough that the Ombudsman Commission wanted
to act on.



Silly question that I'm missing here - how did it get out that Lar revealed the data to his wife? Did she start spreading it? Or is it merely that he said "I was talking about this with my wife" in an off hand way? If the latter, that's not really a big deal in my mind. We can't realistically expect to require husbands and wives to not have open communication.
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QUOTE(UserB @ Sun 20th July 2008, 10:41pm) *

QUOTE(Heat @ Sun 20th July 2008, 5:06am) *

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikie...uly/094603.html

QUOTE
Lar compounded the error by telling his wife the real identity of
Wikitumnus. Lar's wife is another Wikipedian, not someone Wikitumnus
has had any contact with, and also not someone Wikitumnus would choose
to reveal their identity to. Wiktumnus was extremely upset about that
aspect of the incident, and it was a violation of the privacy policy,
although not one serious enough that the Ombudsman Commission wanted
to act on.



Silly question that I'm missing here - how did it get out that Lar revealed the data to his wife? Did she start spreading it? Or is it merely that he said "I was talking about this with my wife" in an off hand way? If the latter, that's not really a big deal in my mind. We can't realistically expect to require husbands and wives to not have open communication.


I was wondering that too. But whatever the reason that piece of info got out I especially agree with the last statement. SV is losing credability so fast its not funny.
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QUOTE(everyking @ Sun 20th July 2008, 4:09am) *
Even if there was "no good reason", her reaction has been outrageous. I'm sure users are checkusered all the time for inadequate reasons--most of us just don't have the connections to know when this has been done. I can only assume that I've been checkusered, probably many times, given my history of disputes with the site's elite, but I'll probably never know for sure, because I don't have a trusty checkuser sidekick like SV does. Considering what we know about SV--her long-term abuse of the project and its community, including at least one case of sockpuppetry--there is every reason to assume that in this case there was a perfectly good reason for the check. Furthermore, I consider Lar to be reasonably reliable, while SV is completely unreliable.
Everyking, you really must stop this business of saying things that I have no choice but to agree with.
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QUOTE(msharma @ Sun 20th July 2008, 1:25am) *

How on earth did Jay get to be a checkuser and privy to all this information?
Wasn't it by personal appointment by the god-king?
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Sun 20th July 2008, 8:38am) *

QUOTE(msharma @ Sun 20th July 2008, 1:25am) *

How on earth did Jay get to be a checkuser and privy to all this information?
Wasn't it by personal appointment by the god-king?
It was. I've tried to get more information on how that happened but have not been able to. Apparently he was recommended to him by "friends", the same way I and Kat were.

There might have been some discussion of his appointment in the old arbcom-l archives, which I downloaded when I was appointed, but I can't find those files now (they're probably on my old laptop, which died two years ago) and I rather doubt I'd be allowed to download them again now.
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QUOTE
But (I believe) all ArbCom members have checkuser and are on the checkuser mailing list

Surely Sarah knows better than that.
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QUOTE(Heat @ Sun 20th July 2008, 9:06am) *

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikie...uly/094603.html
[...]
When Lar performed his check of Wikitumnus, he discovered that it was
an established editor who is well known to Lar, and who had abandoned
their original account for various reasons. He knew *for certain* that
this person was not Crum375. Yet he went on to peform the check of
Crum anyway.
[...]
Sarah



It looks to me that Wikitumnus was ElinorD's sock, who actually has not abandoned her account,

When Macken79 on March 8 2008 asked on Wikitumnus' talk page whose sock she was, the Wikitumnus account quit editing. ElinorD also stopped editing, but then returned April 7.
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QUOTE(everyking @ Sun 20th July 2008, 2:09am) *

Even if there was "no good reason", her reaction has been outrageous. I'm sure users are checkusered all the time for inadequate reasons--most of us just don't have the connections to know when this has been done. I can only assume that I've been checkusered, probably many times, given my history of disputes with the site's elite, but I'll probably never know for sure, because I don't have a trusty checkuser sidekick like SV does. Considering what we know about SV--her long-term abuse of the project and its community, including at least one case of sockpuppetry--there is every reason to assume that in this case there was a perfectly good reason for the check. Furthermore, I consider Lar to be reasonably reliable, while SV is completely unreliable.


Good point, most people don't have a trusty checkuser sidekick.

Howabout a log where registered users can look up to see if they were CU'd? It would only give results for that registered user. Just knowing that a service like this exists will make the CU's behave differently.
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QUOTE(guy @ Sun 20th July 2008, 2:06pm) *

QUOTE
But (I believe) all ArbCom members have checkuser and are on the checkuser mailing list

Surely Sarah knows better than that.


I, for one, was never a checkuser, though I am sure I would have been granted the status if I'd asked for it. A list of all the checkusers is available on-wiki.
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so has a CU ever been run to show the SV is not Crum?
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QUOTE(Piperdown @ Sun 20th July 2008, 9:40am) *

so has a CU ever been run to show the SV is not Crum?


SlimVirgin is NOT Crum, for the thousandth time. When Wikiabuse was up I had numerous amounts of very private information brought to my attention, plus someone had posted a volume of very, very private information to a page there, which I quickly deleted (it might have been Kato from Wikipedia Review that posted it, but I forget now). Remember, I had a strict "no outing" policy on Wikiabuse before the site got basically ripped to shreds by everyone's various agendas--it was supposed to be strictly a catalog of Wikipedia policy violations by admins, before I pulled the site and erased the database.

Anyway, between that posting of very private info on Slim and Crum, and Kato's analysis of it, it was strongly implied that Slim and Crum were not one and the same. Because I got very, very sick of the days of people trying to sneak in the private information, I checkusered Slim and Crum, who both had posted on Wikiabuse. They both had posted from several IPs, which were obviously NOT open proxies at the time. Kato had also posted his conclusion based on the posted/leaked information *BEFORE* I had a chance to pull it off the site--it had lasted a couple hours, and was not home at the time.

Kato's conclusion (if you don't trust me, and Kato has ****NO**** love lost for either Slim or Crum, consider this) was that Slim and Crum were not the same person. I posted my thoughts on the Checkuser--with no private information--and my conclusion plus the leaked evidence was the same. They're absolutely not the same unless they somehow totally hoodwinked two people who reviewed some very juicy stuff, plus my own review of CU and raw access logs, because I got sick of the constant Slimcrumvirgin chatter and wanted to see one way or the other. They're not the same person and didn't even appear to be operating from the same time zone, let alone COUNTRY.

Please, don't bother asking for the info. You're not getting it, and I don't have the IPs/other stuff anymore anyway and saved none of it.

Slim is not Crum as of everything I saw mid-2007. They're obviously just really close and either watch the same pages, or maybe chatter over IM or something. That is not the end of the world, and ZOMG people are FRIENDS!!!!1!!

Out of anything people can possibly complain about, that is utterly the most singularly trivial stuff.

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