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Searching for LaRouche under the bed |
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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The "LaRouche 1" ArbCom case established that "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement may be removed from any Wikipedia article in which it appears other than the article Lyndon LaRouche and other closely related articles," and that "Wikipedia users who engage in re-insertion of original research which originated with Lyndon LaRouche and his movement or engage in edit wars regarding insertion of such material shall be subject to ban upon demonstration to the Arbitration Committee of the offense." Ah, but what constitutes "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement"? This phrase has acquired a remarkably elastic definition. Consider this quote from Pope John Paul II, removed by Will Beback as "LaRouche-sourced material," although there is no source cited. Presumably most pronouncements by the Pope get published by the Vatican, although we don't know in this case. Increasingly, "Original work which originates from Lyndon LaRouche and his movement" has been taken to mean "opinions with which LaRouche might conceivably agree." Aside from Will Beback/Willmcw/User2004, the other hyper-vigilant defender against creeping LaRouchism is User:172, who waged a mammoth battle at the article "Privatization" to prevent inclusion of material on a conference on the privatization of national security functions ( see the lengthy debate on the talk page.) !72 argued that the material ought to be deleted because it sounded like something LaRouche might consider to be important. My edit, which triggered a revert war by 172, was sourced to the Princeton University transcript of the conference proceedings. Recently, User:Tsunami Butler made a fruitless appeal to the ArbCom, which included an entertaining sampler of recent complaints on Will Beback's talk page. Predictably, this was ignored by the ArbCom. In the course of the discussion, however, Will Beback announces his latest exploit, which I tracked down to the ANI archive. Will reverts two edits: one edit, in article "Laissez-faire," mentions George Schultz and Milton Friedman as laissez-fair advocates that went so far as to call for drug legalization. This edit was sourced to the Wikipedia articles on George Schultz and Milton Friedman, and sure enough, they did that. However, Will Beback pounces, calling it a "LaRouchism." Similarly, in the article "Free Trade," Will Beback comes to the rescue against an edit which references Henry Carey and Friedrich List, and includes a quote from William McKinley -- "remove LaRouche concepts," he writes. He also threatened to ban HonourableSchoolboy for that one. So now, if you are an admin and you want to ban someone, you can accuse them of holding an opinion similar to one of LaRouche.
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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QUOTE(Jonathan @ Mon 12th February 2007, 2:12am) HK, could you give me some background as to who this LaRouche character is, and why Wikipedia appears to despise him and anyone who shares his viewpoints so much?
[disclaimer]Any answer that I give will be an oversimplification, and doubtless will be disputed by someone.[/disclaimer] Basically, in U.S. politics since the time of the American Revolution, there has been an ongoing battle between those forces who supported the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution, and those who opposed them. The latter group thought that it was impractical and undignified to politically enfranchise the common folk, and preferred some sort of aristocratic system like the one that remained in place in Europe -- either a formal, titled nobility, or in more recent times, an aristocracy of financial and business leaders, typified by Wall Street. This conflict has gone back and forth throughout US history. A decisive battle was the election of Franklin Roosevelt, who used the power of the White House, plus the enormous popular support which he enjoyed, to place significant controls on the power of Wall Street, or what he called the "Economic Royalists." However, with the death of FDR, the "Economic Royalists" made a big comeback, and they are intent on preventing the re-emergence of anything like the movement which FDR led. Early on, they identified LaRouche and his movement as just the sort of thing which they could not tolerate, and went to considerable effort and expense to eliminate it, without success. My view of Wikipedia is that it is fundamentally a creature of Jimbo Wales and his trusted acolytes, and in various ways, subtle and not so subtle, it reflects his personal ideology, which lines up squarely with the Wall Street crowd (see Wikipedia Ideology Project.) QUOTE(taiwopanfob @ Mon 12th February 2007, 5:39am) As to why WP hates him and his accolytes, it looks more like many WP editors and admins have lost too many fights with them. And like they say, its actually worse to win a fight with a cop than lose one.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, as I was involved in most of the fights until I was temp-blocked last May. I lost every one of them as far as the ArbCom was concerned. However, if you mean perhaps that I won arguments in moral terms only to get slapped with sanctions, that may be true.
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nobs |
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#2242 most prolific contributor of out of 1 million+ WP users
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:03am) QUOTE(Jonathan @ Mon 12th February 2007, 2:12am) HK, could you give me some background as to who this LaRouche character is, and why Wikipedia appears to despise him and anyone who shares his viewpoints so much? [disclaimer]Any answer that I give will be an oversimplification, and doubtless will be disputed by someone.[/disclaimer] My question, too. On this page, for example, we have a discussion between two notable Wikipedian's, Stephan Kinsella, a theoritician of the Austrain School of Economics, and Chip Berlet, a devoted Marixist idealist. Kinsella refers to LaRouche as a "nutjob", while Berlet calls him a "lunatic". Now, for NPOV purposes, what would be neutral compromise language between proponents of private property and their opposite collectivization advocates to reconcile POV discrepencies of "nutjob" and "lunatic"? QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:03am) the election of Franklin Roosevelt, who used the power of the White House, plus the enormous popular support which he enjoyed Again, a similiar problem. It appears both LaRouche, and Ronald Reagan according to Lou Cannon, idolized Franklin Roosevelt. So what would be NPOV language to describe FDR's inspiration on future Presidential candidates, one considered to represent greedy Wall Street bastards and big business, the other an outspoken activist and opponent of "Economic Royalists" ? LaRouche's wiki bio says, QUOTE he shared a cell with televangelist Jim Bakker at the Federal Medical Center located in Rochester, Minnesota. ...According to Bakker, LaRouche received a daily briefing each morning by phone, often in German... Is LaRouche Alsacian?, i.e. hailing form Elsass-Lothringen (Alsace-Lorraine), the source of fratricidal warfare between the sons of Karl der Grosse/Charlemagne/Charles the Great, and now the seat of the European Union and symbol of European co-operation. A German minority, living in France, speaking German but having French names (in the 19th century they were called half-breeds, but with Strassburg being the seat of the European Parliament, and hope for the future of a fully integrated Europe, this kind of insensitivity is not prevelant today). This post has been edited by nobs:
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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QUOTE(nobs @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:42am) On this page, for example, we have a discussion between two notable Wikipedian's, Stephan Kinsella, a theoritician of the Austrain School of Economics, and Chip Berlet, a devoted Marixist idealist. Kinsella refers to LaRouche as a "nutjob", while Berlet calls him a "lunatic". Now, for NPOV purposes, what would be neutral compromise language between proponents of private property and their opposite collectivization advocates to reconcile POV discrepencies of "nutjob" and "lunatic"? LaRouche enjoys the distinction of being hated by both Right-wingers and Left-wingers. However, as I have noted elsewhere, I don't think of Berlet as a genuine Leftist, but rather, a "Faux-Leftist." QUOTE(nobs @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:42am) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:03am) the election of Franklin Roosevelt, who used the power of the White House, plus the enormous popular support which he enjoyed Again, a similiar problem. It appears both LaRouche, and Ronald Reagan according to Lou Cannon, idolized Franklin Roosevelt. So what would be NPOV language to describe FDR's inspiration on future Presidential candidates, one considered to represent greedy Wall Street bastards and big business, the other an outspoken activist and opponent of "Economic Royalists" ? Oddly enough, LaRouche and Reagan were on friendly terms. Reagan adopted LaRouche's recommended verson of the Strategic Defense Initiative, and at on least one occasion that I can recall, made a public statement saying that LaRouche's ideas were important and should be heeded (Reagan caught Hell for this in the press.) However, LaRouche considers "Reaganomics" to be an abject failure. QUOTE(nobs @ Mon 12th February 2007, 9:42am) LaRouche's wiki bio says, QUOTE he shared a cell with televangelist Jim Bakker at the Federal Medical Center located in Rochester, Minnesota. ...According to Bakker, LaRouche received a daily briefing each morning by phone, often in German... Is LaRouche Alsacian? No, LaRouche is the grandson of an immigrant from Quebec. I think that Bakker is simply mistaken here. LaRouche would not receive briefings in German. However, he would receive phone calls from his wife, who is German. It would not be surprising that he would speak to her in her native language.
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Herschelkrustofsky |
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QUOTE(nobs @ Mon 12th February 2007, 2:40pm) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Mon 12th February 2007, 2:58pm) Reagan adopted LaRouche's recommended verson of the Strategic Defense Initiative, and at on least one occasion that I can recall, made a public statement saying that LaRouche's ideas were important and should be heeded (Reagan caught Hell for this in the press.) You got a cite for this? Don't see his name here (unless you can specifically state what "recommended verson" refers to or supply a date). The Presidential directive you cite doesn't mention LaRouche's name, or anyone else. This is a contentious issue. The Wikipedia bio is semi-balanced on this point -- it has a quote from former head of German Military Intelligence, General Paul-Albert Scherer, saying that Reagan adopted LaRouche's policy, and it has a quote from General Daniel Graham, former head of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, who says that Reagan adopted Daniel Graham's policy (otherwise known as "High Frontier.") QUOTE(Poetlister @ Mon 12th February 2007, 3:25pm) Apart from this forum, I have only come across LaRouche in the Jeremiah Duggan case, which was very big news in my part of the world. Obviously, I know better than to assume that the Wikipedia article is unbiased, given some of the editors involved. Nevertheless, there are still some questions unresolved about Mr. Duggan's death. The Duggan story, as it appeared in the British press, is on the face of it a fairly outlandish conspiracy theory. It alleges that, for unknown reasons, LaRouche activists practiced Mind Control on Duggan as he attended a conference in Germany, causing him to commit suicide. It leaves unanswered the questions of how the LaRouchians were able to control his mind, and more importantly, why would they want to? He had no prior contact with the organization. He was a casual attendee at a conference held to oppose the Bush administration's Iraq war policy. People that I know in the organization have told me that the organization's relations with his mother were initially quite friendly, and then some British government officials intervened, including Baroness Symons, a spooky right-wing figure. Next thing you know, Chip Berlet is involved, and Berlet crafts the mother's campaign to blame LaRouche.
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guy |
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Tue 13th February 2007, 1:14am) The Duggan story, as it appeared in the British press, is on the face of it a fairly outlandish conspiracy theory. It alleges that, for unknown reasons, LaRouche activists practiced Mind Control on Duggan as he attended a conference in Germany, causing him to commit suicide.
Which British press published that? The versions I've read (and I've checked an online database of news stories) say that he was fleeing from someone or something, and possibly the balance of his mind was disturbed, but I can't find a word about Mind Control. QUOTE Baroness Symons, a spooky right-wing figure. Are we on the same planet? I know Elizabeth Symons. She was a career trade union official until she was given a peerage in 1995. In 1997, she became a minister in the new Labour government. In 2005, she was dropped for being too left-wing and insufficiently New Labour.
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Posts in this topic
Herschelkrustofsky Searching for LaRouche under the bed nobs Personally, I know little of LaRouche and have nev... JohnA Incredibly there are people who are still convince... taiwopanfob
HK, could you give me some background as to who t... nobs [quote name='Poetlister' post='22669' date='Mon 12... Herschelkrustofsky
The Duggan story, as it appeared in the British ... nobs She's linked to the CheneysBeware of employing... guy
She's linked to the Cheneys, procurred a big ... Herschelkrustofsky
HK, could you give me some background as to who t... Poetlister Apart from this forum, I have only come across LaR... Herschelkrustofsky :blink: nobs :blink:
HK, let's get Dan Brandt involved in t... Somey I remember back in 1988, during one of his Preside... nobs She was Minister for Defence Procurement so it was... Herschelkrustofsky Nobs, whenever the issue of off-topic posting is r... nobs
Nobs, whenever the issue of off-topic posting is ... Somey They are:neo-confederate
anti-communist
LaRouchie
... nobs [quote name='nobs' post='23009' date='Sun 18th Feb... Somey [/quote]
Without specifically accusing you of quot... nobs
[quote name='nobs' post='23018' date='Sun 18th Fe... Herschelkrustofsky
Alright, back to the subject.
I'd say that y... nobs Well, HK, you & I have never had this discussi... Herschelkrustofsky
Can you clarify what you mean buy this. I'm ... guy
The ADL, like Berlet or Dennis King, is not the s... Herschelkrustofsky
Careful, HK - given that the ADL is a Jewish orga... nobs Can you clarify what you mean buy this. I'm n... Poetlister
The ADL, like Berlet or Dennis King, is not the s... Daniel Brandt John Train, according to his Who's Who in Amer... anon1234
Yet good ol' SlimVirgin wrote on January 6, 2... nobs
[i]Paris Review, according to The New York Times,... Herschelkrustofsky
John Train, according to his [i]Who's Who in ... Daniel Brandt
I think Ace Hayes probably used the term "Im... nobs
I think Ace Hayes probably used the term "I... Daniel Brandt ADL had goons on its payroll when Irwin Suall ran ... nobs
ADL had goons on its payroll when Irwin Suall ran... nobs
There was a criminal case in California in 1993-9... Yehudi All sorts of people collaborated with South Africa... nobs
If it weren't for the ADL, America would be a... Herschelkrustofsky
I'm no friend of Lady Symons, but she can... nobs
I am hard pressed to think of contemporary politi... guy
Suppose we just settle on "spooky," the... Herschelkrustofsky this disambig page.
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsk... nobs I think that it is significant that this is the ar... Herschelkrustofsky
HK: I posted an account of the LaRouche/John Trai... omobomo
I am hard pressed to think of contemporary poli... Somey Only if one is a knee-jerk supporter of the state ... guy
Of course, there's always George Galloway, t... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='omobomo' post='23186' date='Wed 21st... nobs ...when the US Congress put an end to [url=http://... guy
I ask this hesitantly, out of curiosity, but keep... nobs
I ask this hesitantly, out of curiosity, but kee... anon1234 Doesn't that depend on where you're standi... Somey "Masticates"? :huh: nobs
"Masticates"? :huh:
Yah, chews up, de... Herschelkrustofsky :blink: Daniel Brandt I like George Galloway. Herschelkrustofsky
I like [url=http://www.namebase.org/galloway.html... nobs
[quote name='Daniel Brandt' post='23226' date='We... Poetlister
Guy, for instances, didn't disclose [i]why Ga... nobs
Galloway ...won his parliamentary seat ...in a vi... guy
That depends, if you consider deleting certain fa... nobs [quote name='nobs' post='23240' date='Wed 21st Feb... Daniel Brandt As usual, Nobs, you get everything half right, and... nobs Spartacus has good information. They read books. T... guy I've just discovered that no less a person tha... gomi
... Lord Rees-Mogg is not someone whom I personal... Herschelkrustofsky Well, there's a broad array of accusations her... guy HK, you should know better than that. EIR is not ... Herschelkrustofsky
HK, you should know better than that. EIR is not... Herschelkrustofsky I'm beginning to wonder whether there isn... Somey I'm beginning to wonder whether there isn... It's the blimp, Frank It looks like for the first time, a move by SlimVi... Herschelkrustofsky
It looks like for the first time, a move by SlimV... Somey [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVirgin/... Jonny Cache
[b][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVir... Herschelkrustofsky
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVirgin... Uly
I am thinking of some way to protest this, not th... anon1234
I am thinking of some way to protest this, not t... Castle Rock
[b][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SlimVir... Derktar Interesting that the page was deleted in June, had... gomi Don't forget about http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... Somey Blame Turkey?
Anyway, that's probably my faul... Kato 172 is fingering what seems to be another innocent... nobs
172 is fingering what seems to be another innocen... Herschelkrustofsky
172 is fingering what seems to be another innocen... It's the blimp, Frank
I've taken a look at Mbhiii's contributi... Somey As I indicated way, way back at the beginning of t... Herschelkrustofsky
The edit that 172 singles out is interesting, how... gomi As if further evidence was needed, here is SlimeVi... papaya Nah, there's no need for a conspiracy to expla... Cedric
Objectivism and libertarianism are the perfect po... papaya There's no real social structure within the ad...
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