NYB on The Volokh Conspiracy, Some First Thoughts on Wikipedia Options

[tarantino]

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1242098183.shtml

Ira requests:

I make only one request: that regular Wikipedians who are looking over my shoulder, as well as Wikipedia critics from Wikipedia Review and elsewhere, bear in mind that this is a general-interest audience. Please don't hijack the comment threads with our own internal disputes and debates. No one here wants to read who is a sockpuppet of whom or whether so-and-so's block was fair or not. We have ANI and Wikipedia Review to hash those things out later.

[Somey]

Not bad, but Mr. Brad should know by now that high search engine rankings, and the impact they have on both content and on article subjects, are only part of the overall objection to Wikipedia. The negative impact on the publishing industry and academia are another, and on traditional culture in general. It's also helping to destroy the diversity of the web, foster an unaccountable anonymity subculture that's potentially dangerous to democracy, and cheapen intellectualism, among other things. Then there's the whole cultishness thing, WRT the actual users...

Still, I don't suppose it's worth complaining about - at least he's trying to be fair about the whole thing. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

[the fieryangel]

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1242098183.shtml

Ira requests:

I make only one request: that regular Wikipedians who are looking over my shoulder, as well as Wikipedia critics from Wikipedia Review and elsewhere, bear in mind that this is a general-interest audience. Please don't hijack the comment threads with our own internal disputes and debates. No one here wants to read who is a sockpuppet of whom or whether so-and-so's block was fair or not. We have ANI and Wikipedia Review to hash those things out later.

I can't count the number of times I've seen Greg K., Barry Kort or Jon Ambrey make a perfectly logical and well-thought-out comment on a blog only to have them be swamped with Wikipediots making ad hominem attacks and Pro-WP rhetoric attacks ad naseum. If Brad could keep the WP troops in order, none of this would happen. Since he's made this statement, this would seem to confirm this as fact.

One of the joys of Web 2.0, Brad, is that (like Wikipedia) any idiot can participate even if they're completely wrong. The only solution is to 1. moderate the comments or 2. turn them off.

If only WP would do this for BLP articles and ban those Wikipediots who place BLP violations on other sites as revenge, maybe the rest of the World would follow suit?

[Newyorkbrad]

Not bad, but Mr. Brad should know by now that high search engine rankings, and the impact they have on both content and on article subjects, are only part of the overall objection to Wikipedia. The negative impact on the publishing industry and academia are another, and on traditional culture in general. It's also helping to destroy the diversity of the web, foster an unaccountable anonymity subculture that's potentially dangerous to democracy, and cheapen intellectualism, among other things. Then there's the whole cultishness thing, WRT the actual users...

Still, I don't suppose it's worth complaining about - at least he's trying to be fair about the whole thing. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

Also please bear in mind that I couldn't really address every possible critique or criticism of Wikipedia in a 1500-word introduction, or even in a week's worth of posts, which is what I have to work with. As previously promised, in one of my posts I will link to some criticism sites, including this one. I really am trying to be as balanced as I can, although I obviously don't share the entirely negative view of Wikipedia that you express.

[GlassBeadGame]

NYB's preemptively chastising, discounting and discouraging replies from WR on another forum is disrespectful to this site. I won't be troubling you over there, Mr. Brad.

[Newyorkbrad]

NYB's preemptively chastising, discounting and discouraging replies from WR on another forum is disrespectful to this site. I won't be troubling you over there, Mr. Brad.

I fear I've been unclear there and/or misconstrued here. Replies on VC about the general issues I raise there are most welcome. What I was trying to head off was more along the lines of a long debate in a comment thread, which would be incomprehensible to the general readership over there, about whether User:X deserved to be desysopped, why User:Y shouldn't have been blocked, whether User:Z is government agent, etc. That remark was equally directed at Wikipedians as Reviewers, by the way.

[the fieryangel]

Not bad, but Mr. Brad should know by now that high search engine rankings, and the impact they have on both content and on article subjects, are only part of the overall objection to Wikipedia. The negative impact on the publishing industry and academia are another, and on traditional culture in general. It's also helping to destroy the diversity of the web, foster an unaccountable anonymity subculture that's potentially dangerous to democracy, and cheapen intellectualism, among other things. Then there's the whole cultishness thing, WRT the actual users...

Still, I don't suppose it's worth complaining about - at least he's trying to be fair about the whole thing. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

...although I obviously don't share the entirely negative view of Wikipedia that you express.

That's just it, Brad: Somey's view of all of this isn't entirely negative, but centered in the "balanced criticism" mode that both Akahele and you seem to be striving for. He's just not wearing those nice "rose-colored glasses" that the Wikipediots seem to favor...

[Moulton]

NYBrad's second installment is posted: Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy.

[Newyorkbrad]

NYBrad's second installment is posted: Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy.

My third post on Volokh is now up, for those interested. It's more about the BLP issue (and I will continue on that tomorrow as well). Most of the content will be old hat to Wikipedia Reviewers, but my goal is to raise the issues with and get comments from a wider audience.

[Cla68]

NYBrad's second installment is posted: Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy.

My third post on Volokh is now up, for those interested. It's more about the BLP issue (and I will continue on that tomorrow as well). Most of the content will be old hat to Wikipedia Reviewers, but my goal is to raise the issues with and get comments from a wider audience.

Judging from the number of comments, it appears that that forum has a fairly large number of readers, so your message is reaching a lot of people.

[thekohser]

NYBrad's second installment is posted: Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy.

My third post on Volokh is now up, for those interested. It's more about the BLP issue (and I will continue on that tomorrow as well). Most of the content will be old hat to Wikipedia Reviewers, but my goal is to raise the issues with and get comments from a wider audience.

Providing the link generally helps, Brad. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

I finally brought myself to comment on the second installment. My rant will be familiar to those here at WR, but my goal is to raise the issues with and get comments from a wider audience. So far, not a single click-through to the study results page that I provided in my comment.

[Jon Awbrey]

Skew You Too : The Styxie Wixie —

Ah, the never-ending Drek of Wikipediots —

To baldly go where none have met their lines before …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)

[Lar]

That's just it, Brad: Somey's view of all of this isn't entirely negative, but centered in the "balanced criticism" mode that both Akahele and you seem to be striving for. He's just not wearing those nice "rose-colored glasses" that the Wikipediots seem to favor...

When you speak of "balanced criticism" and Wikipediots in the same paragraph, it causes a cognitive dissonance.

As I've said before, you can be a critic without the pejorative/mocking appellations. In fact, you can be a **better** critic without them.

[dtobias]

To some WR types, "balanced criticism" means to give fair coverage to everything from the criticisms that say "Wikipedia is evil and must be destroyed!" to the criticisms that say that Wikipedia is harmful and must be radically restructured, but might possibly be saved if most people associated with it are removed and its policies and practices changed beyond recognition. The "beyond-the-pale" viewpoints that actually mostly like Wikipedia have no place at this table, however.

[One]

NYBrad's second installment is posted: Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy.

My third post on Volokh is now up, for those interested. It's more about the BLP issue (and I will continue on that tomorrow as well). Most of the content will be old hat to Wikipedia Reviewers, but my goal is to raise the issues with and get comments from a wider audience.

Judging from the number of comments, it appears that that forum has a fairly large number of readers, so your message is reaching a lot of people.

It's probably the most popular and influential law blog.[1] Widely known among legal academics, students, and professionals with spare time. I guess it will have to get along without certain butthurt reviewers.

This post has been edited by One:

[Jon Awbrey]

Aside from a couple of cogent posts by Brandt and Kohs, the commentary on the VC Blog makes Fark and Slashdot look almost intelligent.

Jon Awbrey

[thekohser]

That's just it, Brad: Somey's view of all of this isn't entirely negative, but centered in the "balanced criticism" mode that both Akahele and you seem to be striving for. He's just not wearing those nice "rose-colored glasses" that the Wikipediots seem to favor...

When you speak of "balanced criticism" and Wikipediots in the same paragraph, it causes a cognitive dissonance.

As I've said before, you can be a critic without the pejorative/mocking appellations. In fact, you can be a **better** critic without them.

You're being a troll, Lar.

[tarantino]

Aside from a couple of cogent posts by Brandt and Kohs, the commentary on the VC Blog makes Fark and Slashdot look almost intelligent.

Jon Awbrey

This is funny.

Kooks, on the other hand are motivated to post a lot, and would readily respond to calls on Wikipedia Review and other sites to come to VC to take over a Wikipedia thread. (Sheesh, we even have Daniel Brandt here. Somehow I doubt he posted because he's normally a VC lurker.)

I think that people who spend a great deal of time writing Sailor Moon FAQs and anime fan fiction are a little kooky.

[Jon Awbrey]

Aside from a couple of cogent posts by Brandt and Kohs, the commentary on the VC Blog makes Fark and Slashdot look almost intelligent.

Jon Awbrey

This is funny.

Kooks, on the other hand are motivated to post a lot, and would readily respond to calls on Wikipedia Review and other sites to come to VC to take over a Wikipedia thread. (Sheesh, we even have Daniel Brandt here. Somehow I doubt he posted because he's normally a VC lurker.)

I think that people who spend a great deal of time writing Sailor Moon FAQs and anime fan fiction are a little kooky.

Dies Iræ?

The first e-stallment I tried to read looked like the room filled up with Conserva-Mosquitoes, and it got way too hard reading while rotflaffing — all that Bee-Looney about Wikipedia being a hotbed of Liberalism —

Last time I sampled it, Brandt and Kohs had posted a lot of hard-knocks analysis and data that everyone else just ignored — big surprise that.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Newyorkbrad]

Aside from a couple of cogent posts by Brandt and Kohs, the commentary on the VC Blog makes Fark and Slashdot look almost intelligent.

Jon Awbrey

This is funny.

Kooks, on the other hand are motivated to post a lot, and would readily respond to calls on Wikipedia Review and other sites to come to VC to take over a Wikipedia thread. (Sheesh, we even have Daniel Brandt here. Somehow I doubt he posted because he's normally a VC lurker.)

I think that people who spend a great deal of time writing Sailor Moon FAQs and anime fan fiction are a little kooky.

Dies Iræ?

The first e-stallment I tried to read looked like the room filled up with Conserva-Mosquitoes, and it got way too hard reading while rotflaffing — all that Bee-Looney about Wikipedia being a hotbed of Liberalism —

Last time I sampled it, Brandt and Kohs had posted a lot of hard-knocks analysis and data that everyone else just ignored — big surprise that.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

As previously promised, before I finish my guest blogging stint in a few days, I'll post links to here (both the board and the blog) and to Akihele, just so none can suggest that the purpose of my blogging there is to sugar-coat anything. I can't promise how many Volokh Conspiracy readers will follow the links, though: you can lead a horse to water, but .......

Apropos of nothing ... In one of the comment threads there, Mr. Brandt criticized the fact that I still haven't posted my real name on Wikipedia yet. Obviously, at this point I've decided to go ahead and make public that IBM=NYB, so at some point I'll probably post my name on my userpage, along with a couple of sentences of real-world bio (I'm a litigation attorney in New York, I'm the Werowance of the Wolfe Pack, etc.). I wonder exactly how long it will take before someone objects that I'm using Wikipedia for self-promotion.

[privatemusings]

I wonder exactly how long it will take before someone objects that I'm using Wikipedia for self-promotion.

You're using Wikipedia for self-promotion.

do I get a prize?

[Jon Awbrey]

As previously promised, before I finish my guest blogging stint in a few days, I'll post links to here (both the board and the blog) and to Akahele, just so none can suggest that the purpose of my blogging there is to sugar-coat anything. I can't promise how many Volokh Conspiracy readers will follow the links, though: you can lead a horse to water, but …

Apropos of nothing … In one of the comment threads there, Mr. Brandt criticized the fact that I still haven't posted my real name on Wikipedia yet. Obviously, at this point I've decided to go ahead and make public that IBM=NYB, so at some point I'll probably post my name on my userpage, along with a couple of sentences of real-world bio (I'm a litigation attorney in New York, I'm the Werowance of the Wolfe Pack, etc.). I wonder exactly how long it will take before someone objects that I'm using Wikipedia for self-promotion.

Only Dead In The Head Wikipediots would suggest that a Standard Author Bio amounts to Self-Promotion, but never mind that now …

I tried to work up an offering for the VC Blog to share my initially parallel but increasingly divergent experiences with Wikipedia — I think most folks there would find it amusing that one of the events that led to my x-communication from Wikipedia was my objection to the use of "Wiki-Lawyer" as a pejorative term on the grounds that it defamed the legal profession, but never mind that now — still, it looks like that blog, however grounded it may be in one domain of experience, is like so many other Acadimmerungs of Νεφελοκοκκυγία that I have tried to educate in the past, that is, totally oblivious to the realities of Wikiputia, and where folks have their heads so full of gas about the way it's posed to be that they can't really see how it is.

And I don't see you adding much to the mix but ever more gas.

Jon Awbrey

[Daniel Brandt]

This is funny.

Kooks, on the other hand are motivated to post a lot, and would readily respond to calls on Wikipedia Review and other sites to come to VC to take over a Wikipedia thread. (Sheesh, we even have Daniel Brandt here. Somehow I doubt he posted because he's normally a VC lurker.)

I think that people who spend a great deal of time writing Sailor Moon FAQs and anime fan fiction are a little kooky.

Arromdee is actually smarter than he looks. Or at least with a better picture he looks smarter than he used to look. In fact, the résumé he deleted says that he has a PhD in computer science. So we know that he's smart enough to tell the difference between a one and a zero.

(About that PhD, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, since we can no longer ask Essjay to check it out for us.)

But his comment was certainly stupid. With five minutes of research, he might have figured out that the reason I read NYB on VC is because NYB announced it, more than once, on that "kook" site Wikipedia Review. And believe it or not, some of the "kooks" here are actually a hell of a lot smarter than Arromdee. I can't write C-language code as well as Arromdee (but I get by), and I don't read comic books and don't follow anime, but at least I'm smart enough to know that I am, generally speaking, smarter than he is in a lot of other areas.

[Somey]

In fact, the résumé he deleted says that he has a PhD in computer science. So we know that he's smart enough to tell the difference between a one and a zero.

Not if he worked on Peachtree Accounting from 2000 to 2004, he isn't. Yikes, what a mess! It's gotten a little better since then, though.

Still very difficult to integrate with...

[Jon Awbrey]

One of the questions that always comes to mind when discussing ArbComics, stand-up or otherwise, is this —

How could any Wikipedian, much less a high ranking one, be sooooo clueless about the realities in the trenches of Wikipedia?

WikiChecker Data : Newyorkbrad

• 21,835 — Total Edits （25 Feb 2006 – 15 May 2009)
• 11,516 — Project, Help, MediaWiki, Portal
•  6,599 — User Talk
•  2,584 — Article Page
•    466 — Article Talk
•    428 — User Page
•    242 — Category, Image, Template

O I C …

Jon Awbrey

[CharlotteWebb]

from Poe and poetry to pomegranites and Pokemon; from Poland and Portugal to Powell and Posner; from Pol Pot and Potsdam to polarity and pottery.

Well you forgot to mention potent potables.

Oh damn, it's been deleted. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

from Poe and poetry to pomegranites and Pokemon; from Poland and Portugal to Powell and Posner; from Pol Pot and Potsdam to polarity and pottery.

Well you forgot to mention potent potables.

Oh damn, it's been deleted. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

Hail Porchesia !!!

Where the People all have Pyorrhea from eating too many Pomegranites …

Ja Ja (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/boing.gif)

[Newyorkbrad]

One of the questions that always comes to mind when discussing ArbComics, stand-up or otherwise, is this —

How could any Wikipedian, much less a high ranking one, be sooooo clueless about the realities in the trenches of Wikipedia?

WikiChecker Data : Newyorkbrad

• 21,835 — Total Edits （25 Feb 2006 – 15 May 2009)
• 11,516 — Project, Help, MediaWiki, Portal
•  6,599 — User Talk
•  2,584 — Article Page
•    466 — Article Talk
•    428 — User Page
•    242 — Category, Image, Template

O I C …

Jon Awbrey

Well, yeah. When I started I contributed to mainspace, including having created more than 75 pages, but lately I've been focused primarily on arbitration and related activities.

Although I'm not denying the trend you see there, do bear in mind more generally that the pure edit-number data can be misleading. If I create a page in mainspace, that's one edit. If I then vote paragraph-by-paragraph through an arb decision, that can be 20 edits....

I am determined to get back to more article work once the current round of ArbCom cases is wrapped up and my guest-blogging stint on Volokh is completed. And I'm sure Mr. Awbrey will remind me if I forget, because making sure that there are lots of good contributions to Wikipedia mainspace is very important to him. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[CharlotteWebb]

If I create a page in mainspace, that's one edit. If I then vote paragraph-by-paragraph through an arb decision, that can be 20 edits....

Well, few if any articles are created at the size of this opus. I ran out of cigarettes about halfway through it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

One of the questions that always comes to mind when discussing ArbComics, stand-up or otherwise, is this —

How could any Wikipedian, much less a high ranking one, be sooooo clueless about the realities in the trenches of Wikipedia?

WikiChecker Data : Newyorkbrad

• 21,835 — Total Edits （25 Feb 2006 – 15 May 2009)
• 11,516 — Project, Help, MediaWiki, Portal
•  6,599 — User Talk
•  2,584 — Article Page
•    466 — Article Talk
•    428 — User Page
•    242 — Category, Image, Template

O I C …

Jon Awbrey

Well, yeah. When I started I contributed to mainspace, including having created more than 75 pages, but lately I've been focused primarily on arbitration and related activities.

Although I'm not denying the trend you see there, do bear in mind more generally that the pure edit-number data can be misleading. If I create a page in mainspace, that's one edit. If I then vote paragraph-by-paragraph through an arb decision, that can be 20 edits …

I am determined to get back to more article work once the current round of ArbCom cases is wrapped up and my guest-blogging stint on Volokh is completed. And I'm sure Mr. Awbrey will remind me if I forget, because making sure that there are lots of good contributions to Wikipedia mainspace is very important to him. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Do what you like. I am simply stepping through the steps of the inquiry process, that begins by "abducing" an explanation for a surprising observation.

The surprising observation is that a presumably intelligent person could continue repeating the same old mythology about Wikipedia — after all these years — in the face of all the contrary evidence that spits in the face of every trooper who spends a long enough time in the trenches.

There are as many likely explanations as there are favorite ways of denying the evidence — I simply picked on a likely first guess.

Of course, it hardly amounts to a fair test anymore — a Modern Major General slumming in the trenches for a day is just not going to get dressed down for having lacquered brass, now is he?

So you really missed out on all that, poor sap …

Jon Awbrey

[Jon Awbrey]

Ira's Song & Dance about BLPs trots out more old saws than I have old wood (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sleep.gif)

So let me just give my first & last hoot on the subject:

All but the most self-deluded observers of Wikipedia know that none of the above-ballyhooed reform proposals have any chance of being implemented under the current regime.

Their sole purpose has been to generate a semi-annual, semi-idiotic flood of media coverage about the Wouldn't It Be Luverlies of Wikipedia's Good Intentions.

Jon Awbrey, 15 May 2009, 1:02pm

I am putting a copy here because the Conspiracy Blogware is so antique it can take you 10 minutes to find your own posts again.

Jon (IMG:http://wikipediareview.com/stimg9x0b4fsr2/1/folder_post_icons/icon9.gif)

[Somey]

Although I'm not denying the trend you see there, do bear in mind more generally that the pure edit-number data can be misleading. If I create a page in mainspace, that's one edit. If I then vote paragraph-by-paragraph through an arb decision, that can be 20 edits …

Do what you like. I am simply stepping through the steps of the inquiry process, that begins by "abducing" an explanation for a surprising observation.

If I understand this correctly, Mr. Awbrey is suggesting that Mr. Brad is too far removed from the realities of WP article-editing to fully understand how bad it can be for people with knowledge of a given subject to deal with the cluelessness and general interference than occurs on a fairly regular basis...?

That may be, but in Mr. Brad's defense, I've looked at his editing history without the benefit of a statistics generator, and IMO he's actually more like me, just on a different website. It isn't just that he uses the Preview button - he clearly tries to fully prepare articles in advance of their initial posting. That can indicate any number of things - meticulousness, mental organization, and most commonly of all, an attempt to avoid unwanted attention, particularly from people who might challenge the article's content or try to have it deleted. It's almost the opposite of the more attention-seeking narcissistic tendency to create new articles in as many edits as possible.

For example, take this relatively early-in-career stub: J. Daniel Mahoney (T-H-L-K-D). The initial edit is here, with all links and such already in place. After that, NYB makes only one edit to the article, to add a "source" template.

OTOH, most of Mr. Brad's newly-created articles have been about various Federal judges, so there isn't a lot of variety in the stubs - they all follow a fairly similar format. That makes it a little easier to obtain a low ratio of edits to newly-created articles.

Unfortunately, on Wikipedia it's difficult to determine user motivation unless that ratio is very low - I suspect that many non-narcissistic people deliberately use more edits to post a new article than they would otherwise need or want, merely because they don't want to be left in the dust by the edit-countitis sufferers, and they can see that few people really look at the details.

[Jon Awbrey]

For example, take this relatively early-in-career stub: J. Daniel Mahoney (T-H-L-K-D). The initial edit is here, with all links and such already in place. After that, NYB makes only one edit to the article, to add a "source" template.

Perfect Illustration of what I'm talking about

Here is the entire 3 year edit history of the article, which remains a stub to this day.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to find yourself slimmed, er, slammed up against the wall by the Cabal in the neighborhood of that kind of turf — we all know better than that — but it's nowhere near as likely as working on Pseudoscience (T-H-L-K-D), or Sigmund Freud (T-H-L-K-D), or Truth (T-H-L-K-D), or even Charles Sanders Peirce (T-H-L-K-D), if that is where they or their minions stalk you back to.

Do you really think I put over 400 edits into an article like Charles Sanders Peirce out of narcissism?

Give me a break …

Jon Awbrey

[Somey]

Do you really think I put over 400 edits into an article like Charles Sanders Peirce out of narcissism?

Heavens no! But you didn't create any of those articles... (This is the creation diff for the Peirce article, btw.)

There are all sorts of reasons why people use lots of edits to develop an article - in your case, I'd say it was more of a "practice what you preach" thing, given the communal/collaborative nature of Inquiry as you define it (and as evidenced in the development of the Inquiry (T-H-L-K-D) article itself, I might add, which is one of yours).

All I'm saying is that the tendency to want to keep edit-counts to a minimum for newly-created articles can be seen as indicating that the person is trying to avoid attention, which is a fairly evident non-narcissistic impulse. It could also mean that the person is a perfectionist - a mature-depressive tendency - or simply doesn't want to be seen by others as narcissistic, whether or not he/she actually is... but I suspect most people don't engage in that kind of double-bind thinking when they're about to post a WP article.

[Jon Awbrey]

Do you really think I put over 400 edits into an article like Charles Sanders Peirce out of narcissism?

Heavens no! But you didn't create any of those articles … (This is the creation diff for the Peirce article, btw.)

There are all sorts of reasons why people use lots of edits to develop an article — in your case, I'd say it was more of a "practice what you preach" thing, given the communal/collaborative nature of Inquiry as you define it (and as evidenced in the development of the Inquiry (T-H-L-K-D) article itself, I might add, which is one of yours).

All I'm saying is that the tendency to want to keep edit-counts to a minimum for newly-created articles can be seen as indicating that the person is trying to avoid attention, which is a fairly evident non-narcissistic impulse. It could also mean that the person is a perfectionist — a mature-depressive tendency — or simply doesn't want to be seen by others as narcissistic, whether or not he/she actually is … but I suspect most people don't engage in that kind of double-bind thinking when they're about to post a WP article.

Actually, it wasn't a Creation but a Conversion from a Wiki-Prehistoric Phase of Evilusion, but I don't really see why everything has to turn into a fight about Creationism …

Once again, the surprising observation under investigation is that a presumably intelligent person of presumptively good will is still repeating the Litany Of Lies (LOL) that we all know and many of us don't love so much as Wikipediot Doctrine.

If it was certain other people doing that, then the above-mentioned presumptions would be way too presumptuous, so we'd naturally have other explanations available to us.

The charitable interpretations in this case are:

1. Ira is extraordinarily blessed or gratuitously lucky.
2. Ira is blissfully lacking in the relevant experiences.

The relatively small exposure to editing in the trenches is weakly confirmatory of Hype № 2 — it is not itself the Phenom under investigation.

Jon Awbrey

[dtobias]

That somebody doesn't come out of their Wikipedia experiences with the same outlook as yours doesn't mean that they (or you) are wrong. Wikipedia is enough of a big and complex thing that people's experiences with it can be as diverse as the proverbial blind men feeling parts of an elephant.

[One]

That somebody doesn't come out of their Wikipedia experiences with the same outlook as yours doesn't mean that they (or you) are wrong. Wikipedia is enough of a big and complex thing that people's experiences with it can be as diverse as the proverbial blind men feeling parts of an elephant.

I agree.

I'm sure Reviewers notice all of the comments claiming that there's a left-wing bias on Wikipedia. Whatever else that claim is, it's at least an over-simplification. Parts of Wikipedia have a left-wing bias, an Israel bias, a promotional bias, and so forth. Some topics are abandoned garbage heaps, some are vicious partisan battle grounds, and others actually edit harmoniously.

The relevant question is whether Wikipedia can correct itself and more closely resemble the encyclopedia it supposedly aspires towards. I think people should harbor healthy skepticism about Wikipedia's chances of improving. At the same time, many casual contributors have had mostly positive experiences editing. Even at this late date they feel they're contributing to a useful compilation. There's nothing wrong with that.

This post has been edited by One:

[Jon Awbrey]

That somebody doesn't come out of their Wikipedia experiences with the same outlook as yours doesn't mean that they (or you) are wrong. Wikipedia is enough of a big and complex thing that people's experiences with it can be as diverse as the proverbial blind men feeling parts of an elephant.

A well-known fact of life, no matter what we're talking about.

Which is precisely why inquiring minds come together, compare their diverse experiences, seek explanations for the divergent conclusions that different minds draw from their many-splintered POVs, and strive to synthesize a more inclusive picture of the reality that generates them all.

Oh wait, I just violated all the Main Tenets of the Church of Wikipedia, where it's so much Wikier just to ban the books and burn the heretics that displease the Wiki-Priests of the Hour.

Nevermind …

Jon Awbrey

[Jon Awbrey]

That somebody doesn't come out of their Wikipedia experiences with the same outlook as yours doesn't mean that they (or you) are wrong. Wikipedia is enough of a big and complex thing that people's experiences with it can be as diverse as the proverbial blind men feeling parts of an elephant.

I agree.

I'm sure Reviewers notice all of the comments claiming that there's a left-wing bias on Wikipedia. Whatever else that claim is, it's at least an over-simplification. Parts of Wikipedia have a left-wing bias, an Israel bias, a promotional bias, and so forth. Some topics are abandoned garbage heaps, some are vicious partisan battle grounds, and others actually edit harmoniously.

The relevant question is whether Wikipedia can correct itself and more closely resemble the encyclopedia it supposedly aspires towards. I think people should harbor healthy skepticism about Wikipedia's chances of improving. At the same time, many casual contributors have had mostly positive experiences editing. Even at this late date they feel they're contributing to a useful compilation. There's nothing wrong with that.

Let's get something straight about the ass-sym-metrics of the situation —

I am not the one who shunned them and shut out their experience.

They are the ones who shunned me and shut out my experience.

Klar?

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

Seven Days In May —

It's rather tricky keeping track of the disconnected blogicles and comments on that site, so I'll make a list here:

One Page To Rule Them All

1. Ira Matetsky (11 May 2009), Some First Thoughts on Wikipedia
2. Ira Matetsky (12 May 2009), Wikipedia, the Internet, and Diminished Privacy
3. Ira Matetsky (13 May 2009), Wikipedia and the Biography Problem, Part 1
4. Ira Matetsky (14 May 2009), Wikipedia and the Biography Problem, Part 2
5. Ira Matetsky (15 May 2009), Wikipedia : Who Runs the Place?
6. Ira Matetsky (16 May 2009), Some Responses to Comments
7. Ira Matetsky (17 May 2009), Wikipedia : Some Concluding Thoughts and an Invitation

[Jon Awbrey]

Comment on "Wikipedia : Who Runs The Place?" —

My brother the sociologist tells me that the Wiki-Polis is a type of feudal hierarchy known as a "caliphate" or a "shogunate" — there was some distinction between the two, but I forget that part of his lecture.

At any rate, the gist of the ThrasyMachiavellian system of Might Making Right in the Dead Of Night is clear enough — power is transmitted from the WikiPowers That Be On High by the ever-shifting vassalary linkages that connect one oaf of fealty to lower down feudal oafs.

Where are the ArbCommodious Ones in all this?

They are the Clergy, living in a Cloud Cuckoo Land of ideal ideology, divorced from the rude realities of plebe and peon, forever preaching the constantly doctored doctrine that No Body But No Body ever practices, least of all their Holinesses.

Jon Awbrey, 16 May 2009, 10:44am

[Jon Awbrey]

Now here's a WikiPediot "Administrator" who is apparently too cowardly even to use his or her "real" pseudonym:

One of the espoused ideals of Wikipedism is often expressed as "Mind the Edits, Not the Editor" — in other words, it is only the value of the content that matters, not the identity of the contributor. This is indeed one of the ways that Wikipediots excuse their use of anonymous sources, the rationalization being that one can always vet the content without having to know the particulars of the person (or bot) who placed it on the page.

Anyone who thinks about it for a second knows this is nonsense in real world terms.

But let us thank the anonymous "administrator" {{citation needed}} Timekeeper for demonstrating how this bit of wiki-preaching works in practice.

Jon Awbrey (his real name), 17 May 2009, 3:16pm

[Somey]

Now here's a WikiPediot "Administrator" who is apparently too cowardly even to use his or her "real" pseudonym...

That's Horologium (T-C-L-K-R-D) , another laissez faire "libertarian" right-winger, using the classic but wait folks he isn't telling you that he's banned from Wikipedia!!! rejoinder.

Zzzzzz...

[Jon Awbrey]

Now here's a WikiPediot "Administrator" who is apparently too cowardly even to use his or her "real" pseudonym …

That's Horologium (T-C-L-K-R-D) , another laissez faire "libertarian" right-winger, using the classic but wait folks he isn't telling you that he's banned from Wikipedia!!! rejoinder.

Zzzzzz …

How did you know that? It's hard enough keeping up with pseudonyms without getting into meta-pseudonyms …

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

O I C …

Here's my followup —

They never seem to get the point …

I think they must have some sort of rule against it …

Re: Whatzitsnamethisminute

The point being that Wikipediots are as hypocritical about the principal of "Mind the Edits, Not the Editor" as they are about all their other espoused ideals. They spend a fantastic amount of time identifying and trying to discredit anyone who criticizes their ways, doing all of this behind the cover of anonymity and multiple layers of deception.

Jon Awbrey, 17 May 2009, 4:10pm

[dtobias]

another laissez faire "libertarian" right-winger

...not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Somey]

...not that there's anything wrong with that...

Not necessarily, anyway. I shouldn't risk alienating any Volokh Conspiracy readers who may be checking out our helpful little website, but the sad fact of it is, there are a lot of Bush-baby Neocon Republicans out there painting themselves as "Independents" and "Libertarians" so that they can avoid the Bush Stigma™ whilst carrying on the fight for various aspects of the Anti-Obama, Anti-Abortion, Pro-Censorship, Anti-Gay, etc. etc., agenda. If I were one of those real libertarians who were into it before it was "cool," dutifully following the smaller-government, fiscal-responsibility agenda, I would be extremely pissed off about this. Unfortunately, there's probably very little they can really do about it.

Then again, maybe they can turn a few of those people into Ron Paul supporters, by getting them really, really drunk the night before Election Day?

[thekohser]

Timekeeper was such a boob, I just had to reply.

[Jon Awbrey]

… not that there's anything wrong with that …

Not necessarily, anyway. I shouldn't risk alienating any Volokh Conspiracy readers who may be checking out our helpful little website, but the sad fact of it is, there are a lot of Bush-baby Neocon Republicans out there painting themselves as "Independents" and "Libertarians" so that they can avoid the Bush Stigma™ whilst carrying on the fight for various aspects of the Anti-Obama, Anti-Abortion, Pro-Censorship, Anti-Gay, etc. etc., agenda. If I were one of those real libertarians who were into it before it was "cool," dutifully following the smaller-government, fiscal-responsibility agenda, I would be extremely pissed off about this. Unfortunately, there's probably very little they can really do about it.

Then again, maybe they can turn a few of those people into Ron Paul supporters, by getting them really, really drunk the night before Election Day?

I have known some Card-Carrying Conservatives and some Card-Burning Libertarians, but I don't see a lot of either on the Internet. Pseuds of a feather pseud together, I guess.

What see in Wikipedia is neither fish nor fowl but a kind of Permanent Adolescent Philosophy (PAP), and all their Gang Colors and all their Battle Cries amount to the same thing in the end — sucking up to the Biggest Bully On The Block.

Jon Awbrey

[Somey]

I have known some Card-Carrying Conservatives and some Card-Burning Libertarians, but I don't see a lot of either on the Internet. Pseuds of a feather pseud together, I guess.

Count yourself lucky, then! It may be that I encounter more people like that because I'm a businessman (just not a very successful one at the moment), and you're one of these Academia-with-a-capital-"A" guys. But these folks are definitely out there, trust me on that one...

And please folks, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against small-government, fiscal-responsibility conservatives at all, whether or not they call themselves "libertarians." My only beef here is with these people who elected George W. Bush, twice, and now refuse to own up to it, like leopards trying to change their spots overnight. (Bush obviously having nothing to do with small government or fiscal responsibility in any way whatsoever.)

What see in Wikipedia is neither fish nor fowl but a kind of Permanent Adolescent Philosophy (PAP), and all their Gang Colors and all their Battle Cries amount to the same thing in the end — sucking up to the Biggest Bully On The Block.

True... Sometimes I wonder, though, to what extent political ideologues take advantage of simple human nature, or maybe I should say good-natured humanity, to achieve their often-nefarious ends on WP. There's actually a Wikipedia article on something called the Abilene paradox (T-H-L-K-D) that sort of explains what I'm thinking here. At first it will probably seem completely inapplicable, because after all WP'ers argue with each other all the time - that's the whole point of WP, in fact - and yet, putting aside whatever specific issue they're arguing about, they're all pretty much in agreement that their participation there is worthwhile and that they should all continue doing it.

[emesee]

I have known some Card-Carrying Conservatives and some Card-Burning Libertarians, but I don't see a lot of either on the Internet. Pseuds of a feather pseud together, I guess.

Count yourself lucky, then! It may be that I encounter more people like that because I'm a businessman (just not a very successful one at the moment), and you're one of these Academia-with-a-capital-"A" guys. But these folks are definitely out there, trust me on that one...

And please folks, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against small-government, fiscal-responsibility conservatives at all, whether or not they call themselves "libertarians." My only beef here is with these people who elected George W. Bush, twice, and now refuse to own up to it, like leopards trying to change their spots overnight. (Bush obviously having nothing to do with small government or fiscal responsibility in any way whatsoever.)

What see in Wikipedia is neither fish nor fowl but a kind of Permanent Adolescent Philosophy (PAP), and all their Gang Colors and all their Battle Cries amount to the same thing in the end — sucking up to the Biggest Bully On The Block.

True... Sometimes I wonder, though, to what extent political ideologues take advantage of simple human nature, or maybe I should say good-natured humanity, to achieve their often-nefarious ends on WP. There's actually a Wikipedia article on something called the Abilene paradox (T-H-L-K-D) that sort of explains what I'm thinking here. At first it will probably seem completely inapplicable, because after all WP'ers argue with each other all the time - that's the whole point of WP, in fact - and yet, putting aside whatever specific issue they're arguing about, they're all pretty much in agreement that their participation there is worthwhile and that they should all continue doing it.

so what you are perhaps saying is that even though on an individual basis they may have been attempting to do the right thing, due to interactions at the group level, perhaps, on an individual /and/ collective basis, all they could see was bad and worse choices?

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/sick.gif)


perhaps.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif)

[Jon Awbrey]

I have known some Card-Carrying Conservatives and some Card-Burning Libertarians, but I don't see a lot of either on the Internet. Pseuds of a feather pseud together, I guess.

Count yourself lucky, then! It may be that I encounter more people like that because I'm a businessman (just not a very successful one at the moment), and you're one of these Academia-with-a-capital-"A" guys. But these folks are definitely out there, trust me on that one …

Out there I'm sure they are — I'm just talking about our local garden variety and the fruits of all the blog'n'villas.

I think the dynamic must be something like this. Hooray for Individual Liberty! But Corporations are Individuals. Ergo, Hooray for Corporations! At any rate, this appears to be the "logic" of Randroids. Of course, any corporation that is owned by its workers instead of some Wind-In-The-Hair Aviator-Scarfed Smilin' Jackbooter Pointing The Way To That Shiny-Metal-Bot City On The Hill gets disqualified as a communist abomination.

And stop calling me those Capital "A" names. Just because I spent my whole "adult" life in and out of universities doesn't mean I didn't spend the whole time criticizing establishment ways of doing things — I wanted nothing better than seeing a new way of distributing knowledge succeed.

Hence the irony …

What see in Wikipedia is neither fish nor fowl but a kind of Permanent Adolescent Philosophy (PAP), and all their Gang Colors and all their Battle Cries amount to the same thing in the end — sucking up to the Biggest Bully On The Block.

True … Sometimes I wonder, though, to what extent political ideologues take advantage of simple human nature, or maybe I should say good-natured humanity, to achieve their often-nefarious ends on WP. There's actually a Wikipedia article on something called the Abilene paradox (T-H-L-K-D) that sort of explains what I'm thinking here. At first it will probably seem completely inapplicable, because after all WP'ers argue with each other all the time — that's the whole point of WP, in fact — and yet, putting aside whatever specific issue they're arguing about, they're all pretty much in agreement that their participation there is worthwhile and that they should all continue doing it.

Yep, I spent a week in Abilene one night …

And a not-so-healthy dose of Cognitive Dissonance, too.

Jon (IMG:http://wikipediareview.com/stimg9x0b4fsr2/1/folder_post_icons/icon9.gif)

[Newyorkbrad]

The Wikipedia Signpost has now linked to this thread. Does this mean that WR is now a GOODSITE?

[Daniel Brandt]

NYB, when are you going to put your name on your user page? Cool_Hand_Luke should do it too.

[Newyorkbrad]

NYB, when are you going to put your name on your user page? Cool_Hand_Luke should do it too.

I actually had planned to do it this week, as I mentioned in this thread last week. I might well have done it when I returned to editing last summer, but I didn't particularly appreciate the feeling of being coerced into it.

[Jon Awbrey]

The Wikipedia Signpost has now linked to this thread. Does this mean that WR is now a GOODSITE?

It means that WR is in danger of passing from irreverence to irrevelance.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[The Joy]

The Wikipedia Signpost has now linked to this thread. Does this mean that WR is now a GOODSITE?

It means that WR is in danger of passing from irreverence to irrevelance.

Jon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

We're slowly becoming more like the Village Pump than the Sewage Treatment Plant, aren't we? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

I would like to think at least that people who come to this forum will look at Wikipedia more closely and think twice about using it as a reference source.

It is still scary to me to think that a website that is the number one site of the number one search engine can have so much power over knowledge and how people assimilate information.

All I know to do as an aspiring librarian is to teach people how to vet and analyze information. Hopefully, they would realize that Wikipedia fails as a reliable source. Still, I'm only one man and not everyone listens to their librarians or teachers, you know? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

Maybe Wikipedia Review can help? I don't know. After all this forum's been through last year and early this year, I'm just not sure anymore. I know I've been part of problem by focusing on the gossip and character antics of Wikipedia and not the deeper things, but I just don't know how to steer in the right direction.

It's all too depressing.

[Daniel Brandt]

I actually had planned to do it this week, as I mentioned in this thread last week. I might well have done it when I returned to editing last summer, but I didn't particularly appreciate the feeling of being coerced into it.

Maybe the move would be easier if the User pages has a "noindex" just like the User_talk pages do. I think there is more work to be done on the "noindex" front. It's true that your user page would most likely be in the top ten results in a search for your real name, because your real name is unusual and Google is infatuated with everything from Wikipedia.

That's all the more reason to level the field by adopting a "noindex" policy for all User pages. It might even take the wind out of some of those pesky teenage editors if they were unable to get a hormone kick from their Google juice.

[Somey]

The Wikipedia Signpost has now linked to this thread. Does this mean that WR is now a GOODSITE?

It's all your fault! You've ruined everything!

I prefer to see this as one of those "slow news day" types of incidents, personally.

[Milton Roe]

And please folks, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against small-government, fiscal-responsibility conservatives at all, whether or not they call themselves "libertarians." My only beef here is with these people who elected George W. Bush, twice, and now refuse to own up to it, like leopards trying to change their spots overnight. (Bush obviously having nothing to do with small government or fiscal responsibility in any way whatsoever.)

I'm not convinced that small government people elected "Feds will fix your K-12" Bush in 2000. I think it was simply a knee jerk reaction against "Feds will control every aspect of your lives to make Earth better" Gore. And a near thing it was, too. After eight years of Clinton and Wife, it was time to see if maybe the Feds couldn't start minding their own business. And except for the schools and presumably a lot more pork-barrelled baseball stadiums, it might even have worked if bin Laden hadn't attacked us so successfully.

Then came 9/11 and everybody started acting paranoid and you couldn't tell Republicans from Democrats for the longest time, which is how we GOT the term "NEO-Con." After 9/11 even liberal New Yorkers wanted to go somewhere far away and bomb the shit out of somebody. Anybody. This lasted right through 2004. Or at least enough of it did to put Bush in a second time.

Had 9/11 not happened, I think we'd have seen 8 years of harmless muddling and probably less government than we'd have gotten with Gore. Sure the environment would have suffered more than it would have under Gore, but I doubt Gore would have seen the housing/borrowing bubble coming, either. That was a 7 trillion dollar pot of equity just waiting to be invaded, borrowed, and spent living the good-life, by everybody (both Republicans and Democrats-- we're talking everybody whose mortage is underwater right now-- which is a quarter of them). And I think it would have happened, no matter who was at the helm.

And thus, absent 9/11, we'd be right here at the same place, except without the extra trillion or so of debt that we've spent on Iraq. Which would be a help right now, but with 7 trillion of US housing debt, that doesn't mean everything would have been fine. I'll bet 25 cents Gore would have figured out some way to spend a pile of his own social program money, had he been elected.

It's not clear to me that Bush's No Child Left Behind could have possibly spent as much money as our military expenses the first 8 years of this century, as a Gore Democrats-Gone-Wild program (think Obama with training wheels) would have. There's just no way to dump that much money INTO K-12 education in such a short time. They'd have had to have kids riding to magnet schools in solid gold cadillacs.

So, absent 9/11 (and that's a big thing which nobody forsaw in 2000), I think we'd be in marginally better shape right now, with Repuplicans.

Anyway, don't blame any of this present Perfect Economic Storm on libertarians. Conservatives, sure. Liberals, sure. Homeowners and Preditory Banks and idiot economics with these new derivative weapons of mass financial destruction-- sure. Geez, the whole government of Iceland went belly up when fisherman made enough money to buy banks and leverage them at 30:1 fractional reserve. And that's with essentially no defense spending crisis or 9/11, there.

Anyway, libertarians, no way is their thinking especially responsible for this. Do you think the people of Iceland are libertarians? Hell, they're more or less watermellon Green-outside Red-inside eco-socialists. With a good non-pathological highly-educated culture. Gore's wet dream. They got pounded by the global housing bubble, anyway. Just as Gore would have.

[Jon Awbrey]

On His Blindness

They also serve who only stand and, oh, wait …

[CharlotteWebb]

That's all the more reason to level the field by adopting a "noindex" policy for all User pages. It might even take the wind out of some of those pesky teenage editors if they were unable to get a hormone kick from their Google juice.

Indeed. There was a thread on the village pump about this. Someone was wanting to know why the hell their user-page ranked higher on google than WP's article about the bird species they named their account after. I'm guessing it has something to do with the quantity of links pointing to each page?

Noindex of user-pages would make self-promotion (and certain types of cyber-stalking) slightly more difficult. And I do mean slightly.

Still, I'd support this change unless there is some meaningful down-side. Help me out here as I'm not seeing one.

[Moulton]

The Culture of Coercion and Bullying

NYB, when are you going to put your name on your user page? Cool_Hand_Luke should do it too.

I actually had planned to do it this week, as I mentioned in this thread last week. I might well have done it when I returned to editing last summer, but I didn't particularly appreciate the feeling of being coerced into it.

Yes, some of the ruling clique of admins like to bind and gag people they don't like, in addition to banning them.

There, in a nutshell, is the core problem with WikiCulture.

Coercion, bullying, binding, and gagging is simply not a sustainable practice for a functional project in education.

But it's a sustainable practice for a simulated war game.

[Lar]

I actually had planned to do it this week, as I mentioned in this thread last week. I might well have done it when I returned to editing last summer, but I didn't particularly appreciate the feeling of being coerced into it.

Maybe the move would be easier if the User pages has a "noindex" just like the User_talk pages do. I think there is more work to be done on the "noindex" front. It's true that your user page would most likely be in the top ten results in a search for your real name, because your real name is unusual and Google is infatuated with everything from Wikipedia.

That's all the more reason to level the field by adopting a "noindex" policy for all User pages. It might even take the wind out of some of those pesky teenage editors if they were unable to get a hormone kick from their Google juice.

Strikes me that the default for all namespaces ought to be noindex, and then evaluate namespace by namespace whether to be non default, (so article would be indexed) and then evaluate page by page (where necessary) whether to be non default from the non default (so that the article called "Daniel Brandt is a big weenie" is noindex even though articles generally are...)

I could swear there was a proposal to actually do that at some point.

But specifically, I think user ought to be noindex just like user talk.

[Cedric]

Strikes me that the default for all namespaces ought to be noindex, and then evaluate namespace by namespace whether to be non default, (so article would be indexed) and then evaluate page by page (where necessary) whether to be non default from the non default (so that the article called "Daniel Brandt is a big weenie" is noindex even though articles generally are...)

I could swear there was a proposal to actually do that at some point.

But specifically, I think user ought to be noindex just like user talk.

Yet another vapor policy. Just like flagged revisions.

[Daniel Brandt]

I thought NYB would realize that his choice is to either put his real name on his user page, or see his real name on hivemind along with his law firm's name. But he continues to equivocate and obfuscate. Therefore, he's back on hivemind.

When he puts his real name on his user page it will come off of hivemind. That's in his interest, because then his law firm's name won't show up in Google by virtue of his association of Wikipedia.

Same for Cool_Hand_Luke — put your real name on your user page and you can come off of hivemind. I believe in equal treatment for all of Jimbo's arbcom lackeys.

Neither NYB nor his law firm will rank as well they could on Google until I initiate further Google-manipulation techniques, which won't happen unless I get pissed off more than I am at the moment. If anyone has a problem with this, please send your complaints to Google!

[gomi]

Strikes me that the default for all namespaces ought to be noindex, .... I could swear there was a proposal to actually do that at some point.

If it is supposed to be an encyclopedia, what possible argument is there for indexing anything other than article pages? Even then, it would seem that #REDIRECT pages and most fancruft pages should be NOINDEX. Of course, that presumes Wikipedia's real intention is to be an encyclopedia. As we know, nothing could be further from the truth. The Wikipidiots desperately want their drama and ego-centric masturbation to be google-able.

[CharlotteWebb]

When he puts his real name on his user page it will come off of hivemind. That's in his interest, because then his law firm's name won't show up in Google by virtue of his association of Wikipedia.

If your goal is to hold him personally "accountable" why is the name of his employer relevant?

[the_undertow]

When he puts his real name on his user page it will come off of hivemind. That's in his interest, because then his law firm's name won't show up in Google by virtue of his association of Wikipedia.

If your goal is to hold him personally "accountable" why is the name of his employer relevant?

1. Brandt does things arbitrarily.
2. He feels morally compelled to inform Brad's clients that their attorney may be spending billable hours editing Wikipedia.

I really can't believe we are back at this again.

[Milton Roe]

Strikes me that the default for all namespaces ought to be noindex, .... I could swear there was a proposal to actually do that at some point.

Yuh, it came from ME, among others (actually I suggested only BLPs be automatically noindexed, but it really should be all BLPs, userspace, and maybe even article TALK space). The rest of the encyclopedia articles deserve to be google-findable.

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...ndpost&p=157102

Let's see you find anyone who suggested it sooner.

Milt

(Born to have my ideas ignored, then percolate up through people's unconscienceness' eventally)

[CharlotteWebb]

2. He feels morally compelled to inform Brad's clients that their attorney may be spending billable hours editing Wikipedia.

Okay, but... would this concern not also apply to anyone who holds a job? How is Brad special in this regard?

And above all, isn't it somebody else's problem?

[dtobias]

1. Brandt does things arbitrarily.
2. He feels morally compelled to inform Brad's clients that their attorney may be spending billable hours editing Wikipedia.

A more succinct way of putting it is "Brandt is a dick."

[GlassBeadGame]

1. Brandt does things arbitrarily.
2. He feels morally compelled to inform Brad's clients that their attorney may be spending billable hours editing Wikipedia.

A more succinct way of putting it is "Brandt is a dick."

I don't like Brandt's constantly changing and contingent standards for Hivemind. It would be better if as an a person of authority on WP NYB was simply listed in the same manner as anyone else. But holding Brandt to any standard or measure based on a WP essay is pretty lame.


(Not directed at Dan) Any claims that NYB bills clients for on wiki time is baseless and not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I don't believe that Brandt has ever asserted this.

[dtobias]

But holding Brandt to any standard or measure based on a WP essay is pretty lame.

Well, obviously I'm not following that essay entirely, since it also says that you shouldn't use it to try to label another person in violation of the No Personal Attacks policy.

[zvook]

(Not directed at Dan) Any claims that NYB bills clients for on wiki time is baseless and not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I don't believe that Brandt has ever asserted this.

I haven't seen him do so either. But people do goof off on company time, which is to me morally acceptable and one of the decent arguments for pseudonymity, assuming said pseudonym isn't fucking up on BLPs (and without prejudice to the argument that to contribute is to fuck up). Not everyone can be self-employed, comfy academics, retirees or otherwise freed from the encumbrances of The Man.

Speaking of which, to go back for a moment to the politics of the blog, I would call it right-wing, since it hosts the kind of libertarians who value the freedom of money to travel but not people, the freedom of corporations but not (the "un-ownability" of) the environment, the freedom to invade other countries, and ergo the freedom to vote for the last president twice, as main man Eugene did. They always seem a funny kind of libertarians to me. And the commentators reflect the readership, present company excluded of course. Eugene is often reasonable enough, though this thrilling foray into speculative fiction for nationalreviewonline was not his finest hour.

[CharlotteWebb]

(Not directed at Dan) Any claims that NYB bills clients for on wiki time is baseless and not supported by any evidence whatsoever. I don't believe that Brandt has ever asserted this.

Indeed I think this accusation came primarily from Colscott.

This is suitable for framing:

Not everyone can be self-employed, comfy academics, retirees or otherwise freed from the encumbrances of The Man.

That's The Man mind you, not to be confused with This Man or That Man.

[Random832]

Same for Cool_Hand_Luke — put your real name on your user page and you can come off of hivemind. I believe in equal treatment for all of Jimbo's arbcom lackeys.

except when you don't.

This post has been edited by Random832:

[zvook]

That's The Man mind you, not to be confused with ... That Man.

Dunno about that! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fear.gif)

[Somey]

Let's see you find anyone who suggested it sooner.

I was suggesting that they do something like that back in 2006 - this post, for example.

Not to take credit or anything...

[Milton Roe]

Let's see you find anyone who suggested it sooner.

I was suggesting that they do something like that back in 2006 - this post, for example.

Not to take credit or anything...

Meanwhile, the very least they could do would be to alter their robots.txt file to prevent unwanted biographies from being indexed by Google, but they can't even be bothered to do that, can they? Nooooo.

Ohhhhh, very good! Did you know the actual HTML(?) tag for that, at the time? AFAIK, we didn't discover NOINDEX until some time later. And were astounded at how easy this was, and yet WP still refuses to alter their software to allow it (yes, you can't add {{NOINDEX}} to a mainspace page and have it do anything, even if you want to).