Brion Vibber to leave WMF, ... yeah, it's official. Options

[Alison]

It looks like Brion is moving on to another company, soon. He's announced it on his blog amongst other places. While I wish him well - he's one of the good guys (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) - I have to wonder what this is going to do for Flagged Revisions and some of the other important software updates. Knowing geeks as I do, he'll probably still work voluntarily on the sidelines - I know I would.

Anyways - I guess Jimmy's going to be hiring programmers and CTOs again soon (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fear.gif)

[Kelly Martin]

It looks like Brion is moving on to another company, soon. He's announced it on his blog amongst other places. While I wish him well - he's one of the good guys (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) - I have to wonder what this is going to do for Flagged Revisions and some of the other important software updates. Knowing geeks as I do, he'll probably still work voluntarily on the sidelines - I know I would.

It will, no doubt, be used as yet another excuse to delay flagged revisions. There seems to be no end of reasons for not implementing them.

[Malleus]

I doubt that Brion's departure will make much difference, or that it was triggered by the ongoing flagged revisions fiasco.

[MBisanz]

I doubt that Brion's departure will make much difference, or that it was triggered by the ongoing flagged revisions fiasco.

I agree that I doubt it was triggered by flagged revs, but I would disagree that it will not make a difference, Brion has been with MediaWiki since it was created and is probably one of the only individuals out there with a full idea of what is actually in the software (undocumented extension, TS apps, external apps, etc) as well as what direction the software should be developed in (what things to include in core, how to make it more stable, more usable, things not to do with it, etc). I do have confidence is our other paid devs, but I will not undervalue Brion's immense role in the project.

[dogbiscuit]

(undocumented extension, TS apps, external apps, etc)

Usually, if the software is dependent on some individual then it can be a good thing to get them to move on and knock it into shape.

However, what may be sound for a professional software company may not be the right approach from a bodge and dodge shop (and somehow, I can't imagine that Jimbo set up anything else). A bit less time on the trampolines, and bit more time documenting the bits that are too quirky for anyone's sanity.

[Malleus]

(undocumented extension, TS apps, external apps, etc)

Usually, if the software is dependent on some individual then it can be a good thing to get them to move on and knock it into shape.

Exactly. Writing PhP "programs" doesn't seem that difficult to me, but the irony is that software shops generally can't afford outstandingly talented programmers (no idea whether Brion is in that category or not), because their work needs to be understood by those who are left behind when the prima donna moves on.

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[anthony]

Writing PhP "programs" doesn't seem that difficult to me, but the irony is that software shops generally can't afford outstandingly talented programmers (no idea whether Brion is in that category or not), because their work needs to be understood by those who are left behind when the prima donna moves on.

Without outstandingly talented programmers, how is anything going to get done?

You just need to hire outstandingly talented managers as well, to make sure, among other things, that documentation gets written for the outstandingly talented programmers who take over to use to get up to speed.

[dogbiscuit]

Writing PhP "programs" doesn't seem that difficult to me, but the irony is that software shops generally can't afford outstandingly talented programmers (no idea whether Brion is in that category or not), because their work needs to be understood by those who are left behind when the prima donna moves on.

Without outstandingly talented programmers, how is anything going to get done?

You just need to hire outstandingly talented managers as well, to make sure, among other things, that documentation gets written for the outstandingly talented programmers who take over to use to get up to speed.

You need outstandingly talented people to have the great ideas - but generally it is best not to let them implement any more than you have to. Most companies I've worked at have had a prima donna expert, and most have been better off when they have caged them. Most bright ideas end up having massive hidden maintenance costs.

[anthony]

Without outstandingly talented programmers, how is anything going to get done?

You just need to hire outstandingly talented managers as well, to make sure, among other things, that documentation gets written for the outstandingly talented programmers who take over to use to get up to speed.

You need outstandingly talented people to have the great ideas - but generally it is best not to let them implement any more than you have to. Most companies I've worked at have had a prima donna expert, and most have been better off when they have caged them. Most bright ideas end up having massive hidden maintenance costs.

That's an interesting position. Having always been on the "outstandingly talented" side of that equation, I really can't understand it. Nine times out of ten my great ideas don't get implemented if I'm not heavily involved with the implementation myself.

But if it works for you, I guess I can't blame you.

As for me, I suppose that's why I moved out of the software industry and became a tax accountant. It was far too frustrating to watch my creations destroyed by idiot code monkeys managed by idiot project managers. I guess I got spoiled in my first job, working on Unix kernel code with a whole team of outstandingly talented individuals, led by an outstandingly talented manager. In hindsight I should have never quit, but how was I to know that the rest of the world wasn't going to run that same way?

This post has been edited by anthony:

[dogbiscuit]

That's an interesting position. Having always been on the "outstandingly talented" side of that equation, I really can't understand it. Nine times out of ten my great ideas don't get implemented if I'm not heavily involved with the implementation myself.

But if it works for you, I guess I can't blame you.

That's because my outstanding talents are in digging companies out of the mess outstandingly talented people have dug themselves into.

It does depend on what sector you are in, but the general drudge of moving data from keyboard to disk, across to another bit of disk and occasionally back to the screen rarely calls for talent, what is needed is blatantly obvious, comprehensible, maintainable code that everyone can agree what it does. That goes for clever SQL too - untangling dozens of subclauses of heavily nested Oracle SQL and having a few temporary tables instead works wonders for proving that the code works in all possible situations ("But that shouldn't be null so it's not my fault!??!").

I'm too scarred from impossible to follow C++ template code to consider clever coding to be a good thing.

[Friday]

That's an interesting position. Having always been on the "outstandingly talented" side of that equation, I really can't understand it. Nine times out of ten my great ideas don't get implemented if I'm not heavily involved with the implementation myself.

But if it works for you, I guess I can't blame you.

That's because my outstanding talents are in digging companies out of the mess outstandingly talented people have dug themselves into.

It does depend on what sector you are in, but the general drudge of moving data from keyboard to disk, across to another bit of disk and occasionally back to the screen rarely calls for talent, what is needed is blatantly obvious, comprehensible, maintainable code that everyone can agree what it does. That goes for clever SQL too - untangling dozens of subclauses of heavily nested Oracle SQL and having a few temporary tables instead works wonders for proving that the code works in all possible situations ("But that shouldn't be null so it's not my fault!??!").

I'm too scarred from impossible to follow C++ template code to consider clever coding to be a good thing.

Yeah, there are a few niches where "clever" code is Good Thing, but for general purpose application development, easy-to-maintain code wins nearly every time.

If you're writing code that other people can't maintain, chances are you're not exceptionally talented, but rather an egotistical control freak.

[anthony]

Yeah, there are a few niches where "clever" code is Good Thing, but for general purpose application development, easy-to-maintain code wins nearly every time.

And it takes great talent to know where those "few niches" are, and where they are not.

And moreover, it takes a good amount of talent (maybe not great talent) just to write bug-free code outside those "few niches".

Given "dogbiscuit"'s explanation that his experience is "in digging companies out of the mess outstandingly talented people have dug themselves into", I think I see where he's coming from. But I'd venture a guess that in most situations (unless you're dealing with really simple software) if you had removed the talented individuals from the original implementation, the software would have never gotten written in the first place. I've never seen a group of mediocre programmers capable of producing a reasonably complicated piece of software all by themselves. And I've seen many groups of mediocre programmers try.

So I'm sticking with my original response. Yes, you do need outstandingly talented programmers to be involved in the implementation. But you *also* need outstandingly talented managers to ensure that they are creating a highly maintainable product. (In some cases you have one person that can handle both of these tasks, but in all but the smallest projects this is rare.)

If you're writing code that other people can't maintain, chances are you're not exceptionally talented [...]

Quite true.

I've never seen a group of mediocre programmers capable of producing a reasonably complicated piece of software all by themselves. And I've seen many groups of mediocre programmers try.

So, to get back on topic, in all likelihood Brion is a great programmer. But in my opinion he was a terrible CTO.

[Kelly Martin]

So, to get back on topic, in all likelihood Brion is a great programmer. But in my opinion he was a terrible CTO.

Concur. The skills that make someone an excellent programmer do not in any way translate to being an excellent CTO. Someone who excels at both does so by dint of being skilled at two different things, and one doesn't really predict the other (except insomuch as general intelligence is a baseline requirement for either).

I made a bid for the Wikimedia CTO position back in 2006/7 (before I realized the depths of Jimbo's dislike for me, and also Erik's), and it was hard for people in the WMF to wrap their heads around the idea that Brion could be an absolute genius with PHP and Squid and such and yet be subject to criticism for his poor handling of things like budget and manpower management. As an example, at that time, mainly because of lazy negotiating, they were paying at least 80% more for IP transit than they should have been. Given that at the time, IP transit were something like 25% of the budget, this is pretty much unacceptable incompetence.

Then again, this is the organization that used the services of a biologist as its CFO for over two years.

So will they hire an actual CTO to replace him? That would probably cost more than hiring someone out of the WP/MediaWiki "community" who has little management experience and just needs a better job. I'd be surprised if they do that, quite frankly.

No, they'll hire some old crony of Sue's (or maybe Erik's) who has something resembling IT experience and is in need of a job. And who, in all likelihood, will be Canadian.