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_ 2008 Arbcom elections _ Carcharoth Arb Candidacy
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(User:Jehochman)
We both received sysop tools during the same week, but seem to have radically different approaches to adminship. For instance I have performed many blocks, but you have never blocked anyone.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=Carcharoth&page=&year=&month=-1] I have closed virtually no [[WP:AFD|article for deletion]] discussions, whereas other administrators close many of them. What sort of approach do you think is best for ArbCom, or do you think the Committee needs a variety of volunteers with different approaches? Thanks. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] <sup>[[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]]</sup> 17:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
QUOTE(Carcharoth)
:I agree with you that the Committee needs a variety of volunteers with different approaches. My approach, as you have pointed out, does not usually involve blocks. I have made a one-second block to annotate a block log, and I have made two unblocks - in all three cases these actions were carried out following discussion at the administrators' noticeboards, as noted in the block logs. For the discussions related to those actions, see [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive434#Unresolved_incident|here]] (right at end of thread), [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand blocked for sockpuppetry|here]] (whole thread on subpage), [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Betacommand_blocked_for_sockpuppetry#Proposed_unblock|here]] (the first unblock) and [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Betacommand_blocked_for_sockpuppetry#Pledge_confirmed_and_Betacommand2_unblocked|here]] (the second unblock). In other words, I rarely use the block tools because my approach involves discussion and debate (usually at the administrators noticeboards), with warnings if needed, aiming to persuade people to change their behaviour or reconsider their actions, though I have also suggested blocks and other sanctions, where appropriate. When the discussion indicates that blocks are needed, someone else has usually stepped up and carried out the actions. There are places where specific requests are made for blocks, such as at AIV (vandalism notices), 3RR (three-revert rule noticeboard) and RFCU (requests for checkuser), but I haven't worked in those areas, and so haven't done much blocking. As far as this relates to work done on the Arbitration Committee, I think being able to research, discuss and judge a case is more important than having direct experience with using specific tools. If there were cases involving technical matters, I would ensure that I understood the technical details before reaching a verdict, and in discussions I would aim to draw on the experience that fellow arbitrators would have in areas that I might not be familiar with. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 03:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
It's certainly true that these two apparently became admins for different reasons.
Posted by: everyking
I've consistently been impressed by this guy. He's very sensible and takes a responsible, collaborative approach to admin issues. He's the best candidate to step forward so far.
Posted by: Alex
QUOTE(everyking @ Sat 15th November 2008, 4:38am) 
I've consistently been impressed by this guy. He's very sensible and takes a responsible, collaborative approach to admin issues. He's the best candidate to step forward so far.
Yes. While I don't always agree with what he says, or his approach, he is in fact one of my favourite editors, and probably the best candidate of the whole lot.
Posted by: Obesity
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
I would be very happy not to see any of those types on the committee.
Posted by: Alex
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 12:08pm)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
I would be very happy not to see any of those types on the committee.
He is, yes, but unlike a lot of people he tends to do it well, without taking sides, or being a drama queen about it.
Posted by: Pumpkin Muffins
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 4:08am)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
Yes and no.
It's true he inserts himself into a lot of drama, but always with the goal of conflict resolution. He generally has a calming effect on the hoards and seems to be independent minded and good willed.
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Pumpkin Muffins @ Sat 15th November 2008, 9:28am)
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 4:08am)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
Yes and no.
It's true he inserts himself into a lot of drama, but always with the goal of conflict resolution. He generally has a calming effect on the hoards and seems to be independent minded and good willed.
I think you meant "hordes" (unless you are referring to the tendency of some to collect drama in vast underground caverns where they can take individual items out and replay the misery blow by blow to their hearts content... in which case hoard is indeed the right usage!)
Other than snarky nitpicking for humor, like the above (I hope you find it funny, gentle reader), I suspect I'll be confining my commentary on this election to a subpage of my userspace I'm constructing. Although I must say that I'm flattered that Kato liked my questions and is collecting the answers in a single thread (much easier than finding them in the large collection of election pages on WP (*)). Thanks for that. You can be sure I'm reading with avid interest. I wish you'd chosen different colors for different kinds of highlighting though... you're actually making me think about everything in red to try to decide if it's surprisingly profound, or surprisingly clueless.
* - I confess I'm not sure if that collection of pages is a horde or a hoard ! ... so remembering RWWATP, I avoided making the choice.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 5:08am)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
I would be very happy not to see any of those types on the committee.
He's attracted to drama but does not create or amplify it. You don't notice it unless you watch closely, but he's de-escalating. Also, I've never seen him fail to stick up for the bitten newbie or little guy being abused by some other admin-- a truely thankless and usually unnoticed task on wikipedia (you don't get barnstars for it, that's for sure). So he's done a lot of conflict-resolution admin work without any collateral damage. Which you might think is impossible, but (if so) find me some.
This is why Jehochman is viewing him as some kind of fairytale critter, like a unicorn or (in this case) talking wolf. It's like "NO blocks??? Are you for real, man?"
Posted by: LessHorrid vanU
Carcharoth is okay - we had a really big debate about my preference of enacting an indefinite block, to be lifted when the editing problem is resolved, rather than a given period on the assumption that the time-out will put things right (yup, that is my angle on the two approaches, Carch much prefers that you discuss the matter with the editor until they understand and only block when it is apparent the disruption is going to continue... and he will not be the blocker, either). I think we agreed to disagree on that one, although I have to say that I tend to block less on the "indefinite until editor gets a clue" option these days. He is good as de-escalating disputes and opening up lines of communication, but because of the way the Committee works it is difficult to see if (let alone how) those skills are needed within that organisation, and the manner in which ArbComs are handled also seems not to need those abilities.
I won't be opposing, anyhoo.
Posted by: D.A.F.
Carcharoth (T-C-L-K-R-D)
is worthless. It is nice to see what sort of people present themselves, either those who are scarred to take any sort of hard decision, either those who get fooled with the wiki-appearence of users. Oh and I forgot the NYB types...
It's best to vote for someone you know what to expect once he's placed at that position. At least you know what to expect with Jehochman.
Posted by: everyking
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sat 15th November 2008, 9:49pm)
He is good as de-escalating disputes and opening up lines of communication, but because of the way the Committee works it is difficult to see if (let alone how) those skills are needed within that organisation, and the manner in which ArbComs are handled also seems not to need those abilities.
Are you kidding? The ArbCom doesn't need dispute resolution skills and communication skills?!
Posted by: tarantino
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 12:08pm)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
I would be very happy not to see any of those types on the committee.
From http://en.wikichecker.com/user/?t=Carcharoth&l=all, Carcharoth's top 10 edited pages with the number of edits to each.
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (1,347)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard (1,118)
User talk:Carcharoth (1,101)
Wikipedia talk:Non-free content (716)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth (601)
User:Carcharoth/Tolkien categories (295)
Talk:Main Page (283)
Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) (269)
Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship (243)
Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion (236)
So, the answer is yes.
Posted by: Cla68
QUOTE(tarantino @ Sun 16th November 2008, 5:09am)
QUOTE(Obesity @ Sat 15th November 2008, 12:08pm)
Am I mistaking him for someone else, or isn't Carcharoth a member of the singularly irritating club of blood-sniffing dramahounds who pass the time by indiscriminately inserting themselves into the latest AN/I fracas?
I would be very happy not to see any of those types on the committee.
From http://en.wikichecker.com/user/?t=Carcharoth&l=all, Carcharoth's top 10 edited pages with the number of edits to each.
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents (1,347)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard (1,118)
User talk:Carcharoth (1,101)
Wikipedia talk:Non-free content (716)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth (601)
User:Carcharoth/Tolkien categories (295)
Talk:Main Page (283)
Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) (269)
Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship (243)
Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion (236)
So, the answer is yes.
I think Jechochman has a point, if this is the point he's trying to make, that sometimes you have take a strong stand on something and act on it decisively. Trying to "smooth" everything is fine to some extent, but sometimes stronger action is required. Does Carcharoth write any articles, by the way?
Posted by: Giggy
QUOTE(Cla68)
[...] Does Carcharoth write any articles, by the way?
User:Carcharoth/Contributions#Articles
Interestingly he claims to have rescued Mzoli's from AfD. I looked at the article history and he has certainly added a fair bit of content, though most of this seems to have been done after the AfD.
Posted by: Somey
This past April he started several short articles about Fellows of the Royal Society, most of whom lived during the 19th and early-20th centuries. It's important that every Fellow of the Royal Society should have an article, just so there won't be a lot of unnecessary confusion and hurt feelings.
He does seem rather keen, doesn't he? He only just joined the WikiEN-L list a week or so ago, looks like. And he doesn't seem to have an account here, at least not an identifiable one, so how can he go wrong?
I just hope this isn't all a big ruse to try and insert extraneous links to a gripping Icelandic saga all over WP, even in some topics where it might not be entirely appropriate.
Posted by: Neil
Carcharoth is one of the good guys, and I shall be voting for him. Arbcom needs people who are unwilling to block until all other avenues of resolution are exhausted.
While Carcharoth has on occasion agreed or suggested a block is the appropriate course of action, he has never pushed the button himself, instead asking others to do so. I wonder why this is - I'm going to ask him.
Posted by: wikiwhistle
QUOTE(everyking @ Sun 16th November 2008, 5:06am)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sat 15th November 2008, 9:49pm)
He is good as de-escalating disputes and opening up lines of communication, but because of the way the Committee works it is difficult to see if (let alone how) those skills are needed within that organisation, and the manner in which ArbComs are handled also seems not to need those abilities.
Are you kidding? The ArbCom doesn't need dispute resolution skills and communication skills?!
It doesn't look like that's required of arbs at the moment, does it?
Posted by: D.A.F.
QUOTE(Neil @ Mon 17th November 2008, 4:42am)
Carcharoth is one of the good guys, and I shall be voting for him. Arbcom needs people who are unwilling to block until all other avenues of resolution are exhausted.
While Carcharoth has on occasion agreed or suggested a block is the appropriate course of action, he has never pushed the button himself, instead asking others to do so. I wonder why this is - I'm going to ask him.
So basically, because he has blocked no one and has taken no sides he has no enemy and should be an arbitrator. How convinient.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Xidaf @ Mon 17th November 2008, 1:10pm)
QUOTE(Neil @ Mon 17th November 2008, 4:42am)
Carcharoth is one of the good guys, and I shall be voting for him. Arbcom needs people who are unwilling to block until all other avenues of resolution are exhausted.
While Carcharoth has on occasion agreed or suggested a block is the appropriate course of action, he has never pushed the button himself, instead asking others to do so. I wonder why this is - I'm going to ask him.
So basically, because he has blocked no one and has taken no sides he has no enemy and should be an arbitrator. How convinient.
For some years he has consistantly taken the side of the bitten newbie against the abusive editor. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, Mr. Fartman, but why are you here?
Posted by: D.A.F.
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th November 2008, 3:17pm)
QUOTE(Xidaf @ Mon 17th November 2008, 1:10pm)
QUOTE(Neil @ Mon 17th November 2008, 4:42am)
Carcharoth is one of the good guys, and I shall be voting for him. Arbcom needs people who are unwilling to block until all other avenues of resolution are exhausted.
While Carcharoth has on occasion agreed or suggested a block is the appropriate course of action, he has never pushed the button himself, instead asking others to do so. I wonder why this is - I'm going to ask him.
So basically, because he has blocked no one and has taken no sides he has no enemy and should be an arbitrator. How convinient.
For some years he has consistantly taken the side of the bitten newbie against the abusive editor. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, Mr. Fartman, but why are you here?
How many Arbcom case you know which involve the poor bitten newbie?
Posted by: LessHorrid vanU
QUOTE(everyking @ Sun 16th November 2008, 5:06am)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sat 15th November 2008, 9:49pm)
He is good as de-escalating disputes and opening up lines of communication, but because of the way the Committee works it is difficult to see if (let alone how) those skills are needed within that organisation, and the manner in which ArbComs are handled also seems not to need those abilities.
Are you kidding? The ArbCom doesn't need dispute resolution skills and communication skills?!
Within the ArbCom function - they are not going to let the new boy (should he get it) start dealing with cases using those skills by himself. nyb is/was smart enough to draft proposals around his preferred choices and allow sloth to drag the rest of the arbs into more or less the position he prefers (might be wrong there, and anyway I generally support his take on cases), but still adheres to the principle of general ArbCom solidarity. Carcharoth would therefore not be permitted to utilise his particular skills in an ArbCom because he has to run it through the groupthink process. I also don't think he will get very far within the ArbCom decision process by using those skills, because the seemingly disjointed way the system works - a couple of arbs make the early running, sticking up suggested wordings and responding (a bit) in the workshop, a couple then take up the reigns and make further suggestions to the first arbs (perhaps ignoring anything non arb from the workshop) and then the other players arrive to agree with what has been thrashed out by the first two sets of arbs.
Posted by: everyking
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Mon 17th November 2008, 9:42pm)
QUOTE(everyking @ Sun 16th November 2008, 5:06am)
QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Sat 15th November 2008, 9:49pm)
He is good as de-escalating disputes and opening up lines of communication, but because of the way the Committee works it is difficult to see if (let alone how) those skills are needed within that organisation, and the manner in which ArbComs are handled also seems not to need those abilities.
Are you kidding? The ArbCom doesn't need dispute resolution skills and communication skills?!
Within the ArbCom function - they are not going to let the new boy (should he get it) start dealing with cases using those skills by himself. nyb is/was smart enough to draft proposals around his preferred choices and allow sloth to drag the rest of the arbs into more or less the position he prefers (might be wrong there, and anyway I generally support his take on cases), but still adheres to the principle of general ArbCom solidarity. Carcharoth would therefore not be permitted to utilise his particular skills in an ArbCom because he has to run it through the groupthink process. I also don't think he will get very far within the ArbCom decision process by using those skills, because the seemingly disjointed way the system works - a couple of arbs make the early running, sticking up suggested wordings and responding (a bit) in the workshop, a couple then take up the reigns and make further suggestions to the first arbs (perhaps ignoring anything non arb from the workshop) and then the other players arrive to agree with what has been thrashed out by the first two sets of arbs.
Not that I have any expectation of it, but really an arbitrator should reject the whole process of secret deliberation and consensus and engage directly with the community, presenting all their views publicly, discussing possible solutions with the community, and frequently submitting proposals for voting. There is no reason why an arbitrator should work within the existing ArbCom culture except peer pressure, and I hope we can at some point elect someone independent enough to break the mold.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Xidaf @ Mon 17th November 2008, 1:26pm)
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th November 2008, 3:17pm)
QUOTE(Xidaf @ Mon 17th November 2008, 1:10pm)
QUOTE(Neil @ Mon 17th November 2008, 4:42am)
Carcharoth is one of the good guys, and I shall be voting for him. Arbcom needs people who are unwilling to block until all other avenues of resolution are exhausted.
While Carcharoth has on occasion agreed or suggested a block is the appropriate course of action, he has never pushed the button himself, instead asking others to do so. I wonder why this is - I'm going to ask him.
So basically, because he has blocked no one and has taken no sides he has no enemy and should be an arbitrator. How convinient.
For some years he has consistantly taken the side of the bitten newbie against the abusive editor. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, Mr. Fartman, but why are you here?
How many Arbcom case you know which involve the poor bitten newbie?
Not as many as there should be. These guys are down to 2 or 3 cases a month, and they really resist looking at bitten-newbies. But the MathewHoffman case was essentiall a WP:BITE case, and it cost Unrepentant Vandal the tools. Carcharoth was in there seeking justice. If Arb decided to take more of such cases (and there are a zillion out there), we'd see this happen more. Right now, outside of ArbCom, there's not much to do about administrative abuse.
Can you imagine if nothing could be done about police brutality, except to hope your case is accepted by the Supreme Court? Or that the video of it hits the evening news, like Rodney King's?
Posted by: wikiwhistle
QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 17th November 2008, 8:48pm)
Not that I have any expectation of it, but really an arbitrator should reject the whole process of secret deliberation and consensus and engage directly with the community, presenting all their views publicly, discussing possible solutions with the community, and frequently submitting proposals for voting. There is no reason why an arbitrator should work within the existing ArbCom culture except peer pressure, and I hope we can at some point elect someone independent enough to break the mold.
It's an arbitration committee. It's not like giving an admin admin tools and letting them use them as they will, unfortunately. It has all the inertia of any committee you might know of in the real world which isn't just a front for one person's decisions (assuming arbcom aren't that.) The only dynamism allowed in some form of committee is that of the leader or chair to which the others assent. Arbcom doesn't necessarily have that- so it's just a talking shop of a few individuals who then issue statements within acceptable degrees of obnoxiousness, varying depending on the degree of popularity of the 'victim'.
Posted by: sarcasticidealist
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th November 2008, 4:12pm)
But the MathewHoffman case was essentiall a WP:BITE case, and it cost Unrepentant Vandal the tools.
Unless this is an exceptionally juicy outing, I think you mistyped there.
Posted by: wikiwhistle
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 17th November 2008, 11:12pm)
Not as many as there should be. These guys are down to 2 or 3 cases a month, and they really resist looking at bitten-newbies. But the MathewHoffman case was essentiall a WP:BITE case, and it cost Unrepentant Vandal the tools.
I assume that's a typo and you meant Vanished User (or are they really the same person?)
QUOTE
Can you imagine if nothing could be done about police brutality, except to hope your case is accepted by the Supreme Court? Or that the video of it hits the evening news, like Rodney King's?
Maybe I'm a cynic, but do you really imagine any institution or interconnected establishments deals with possible cases of abuse they perpetrate very readily? Certainly not many cases where police brutality is admitted to are heard of in the UK, regardless of whether there's an ombudsman or whatever.
Posted by: everyking
QUOTE(wikiwhistle @ Tue 18th November 2008, 12:49am)
QUOTE(everyking @ Mon 17th November 2008, 8:48pm)
Not that I have any expectation of it, but really an arbitrator should reject the whole process of secret deliberation and consensus and engage directly with the community, presenting all their views publicly, discussing possible solutions with the community, and frequently submitting proposals for voting. There is no reason why an arbitrator should work within the existing ArbCom culture except peer pressure, and I hope we can at some point elect someone independent enough to break the mold.
It's an arbitration committee. It's not like giving an admin admin tools and letting them use them as they will, unfortunately. It has all the inertia of any committee you might know of in the real world which isn't just a front for one person's decisions (assuming arbcom aren't that.) The only dynamism allowed in some form of committee is that of the leader or chair to which the others assent. Arbcom doesn't necessarily have that- so it's just a talking shop of a few individuals who then issue statements within acceptable degrees of obnoxiousness, varying depending on the degree of popularity of the 'victim'.
I didn't say they shouldn't be a committee. I just said they should conduct deliberations publicly, engage readily with the community, and hold votes without pulling together a private consensus beforehand. Each member of the ArbCom is elected with an individual mandate and each of them has the power to break with the others and behave in the way I've described--they have a responsibility to the community, not to the other members of the committee.