Ottava leaves Wikipedia Options

[Somey]

We must have a thread somewhere about this busines, but I can't find it...

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned, but IIRC it was while Ottava was an active member here, so naturally it immediately devolved into a flamewar between him and everyone else, godless heathen scum that we are.

Frankly, most of us probably would have been cheering the Bishonen/Geogre/Moreschi team on during that incident, rather than pointing out any perceived hypocrisy or lack of fairness on their part.

The OUTING of Ottava Rima has been noticed on wikipedia and the giveway quote on Moreschi's talk page removed. It might be oversighted although it's probably too late, particularly since the quote has been posted in this thread...

True, but they won't find us by Googling his name, which is the main thing. I actually think this is one of those cases where it's important that Wikipedians know where this particular "editor" is coming from, ideologically speaking. That doesn't mean they have to know anything more than his name and where to find his column - they don't - but regardless, this is definitely not a person who appears to be inclined towards "neutrality" on much of anything, despite his protestations to the contrary.

Ottava is also fortunate in that there's a perennial third-party presidential candidate with the same name as him, whose politics are about as far from Ottava's as one can practically get. Most of the Google hits, etc., are going to be for that guy, which is always nice if you're trying to stay "under the radar."

...I agree with Fowler&Fowler that OR's writing skills, even as a would-be rural hack, are not impressive, certainly not those I would expect of a professional writer.

But they are those I would expect of a semi-professional polemicist...

[Kelly Martin]

In a fight between Moreschi and Ottava, I'm going to side with Moreschi. Moreschi has his flaws (such as sympathy for the likes of Bishonen, who at this point is nothing more than a troll, and never terribly mature to begin with), but they pale to insignificance in comparison with Ottava.

Moreschi is capable of being, and occasionally willing to be, a responsible, contemplative encyclopedia editor, something which I have seen absolutely no evidence of from Ottava.

I think reminding people that there are no 'grand alliances' on Wikipedia, only momentary juntas of convenience, is in order here. The fact that two people have 'collaborated' on the same side of some issue in the past is absolutely nonpredictive of future collaborations. Wikipedia is a mercenary culture; alliances rise and fall on a moment's notice.

[Ceoil]

"the likes of Bishonen, who at this point is nothing more than a troll".

Kelly you have been a self admitted troll for what now two years? And a bit? Stones should not be thrown, as I think such a role is valued, it gives people licence to say what the think, rather than what they can get away with, and honesty in WP is a rare currency.

I would be from the far spectrum of Ottava's beliefs and values, but to be fair, he never hid his identity, and while all the drama surrounding the RCC FACs and related RFC's were going on, he never stepped in; to his credit.

This post has been edited by Ceoil: Sun 15th November 2009, 6:09pm

[Somey]

Kelly you have been a self admitted troll for what now two years? And a bit?

"Takes one to know one," right?

Stones should not be thrown, as I think such a role is valued, it gives people licence to say what the think, rather than what they can get away with, and honesty in WP is a rare currency.

You mean Bishonen's role, then? She strikes me as someone who has become disillusioned with the whole Wikipedia experience and is mostly hanging around so as to let everyone know why. However, she does still do a fair amount of content-related stuff, so it's probably not fair to call her a "troll." (Not that she would care about what any of us had to say about her in any event.)

[Ceoil]

Bishonen is still cranking out the odd FA or two, while all the while casting a haughty eye on the rest of us. She is not inclined to shoot blanks, or suffer fools, and for that we thank her.

I would not position her with Kelly, whom, it must be said, is not inclined to shoot blanks, or suffer fools any day. But the roles are different.

Um, I had a point earlier...........gone from me mind now.

This post has been edited by Ceoil: Sun 15th November 2009, 7:14pm

[Kelly Martin]

Bishonen is one of Wikipedia's many semi-talented writers, people who write for the ego thrill of having other people read what they've written, whether or not it's any good. She's a half-way decent writer, which means, by the standards of the Wikipedia cesspool, she's amazingly good.

Like many other ego-driven writers, she's also prone to trolling. It stands to reason that Wikipedia would draw ego-driven writers; such people crave having their writing read, or at least being on prominent public display, and Wikipedia is a great vehicle for that. She's not particularly remarkable; merely one of the more prominent of a rather numerous breed. The reason people like her don't leave Wikipedia outright is that they continue to get the ego boost from publication on Wikipedia, which is their primary motivation for writing there in the first place.

Bishonen has written some decent articles, but from the standpoint of effective governance of Wikipedia she has never had anything meaningful to add. Her motivations have always been toward getting her content published in the form she wants it, and very little else. When she involves herself in governance, it is almost always on behalf of one of the other ego-driven writers who has run into some problem (usually, by writing something on a topic that an ideological editor has decided to own).

All in all I'd say that the ego-driven writers are a minor concern in Wikipedia; the main problem they create is occasional abrasiveness and friction when someone steps on one of their private garden plots. The ideological editors are far more of a problem.

[Ceoil]

"It stands to reason that Wikipedia would draw ego-driven writers"

You were never a writer, I never saw an interest in content from you. So what is it you were? That you can judge now. "semi-talented" - "for the ego thrill". You were a player.

"Her motivations have always been toward getting her content published". As opposed to what, exactly. Being septic (and read by 1,000's), as you were?

This post has been edited by Ceoil: Sun 15th November 2009, 8:10pm

[the fieryangel]

I'm not taking sides here. I'm just saying that if OR deserves to be punished (and he probably does) then Moreschi and Folantin deserve to be punished as well. They're all guilty.

The rules should apply to everybody, regardless of political alliances. That's not the case, but maybe that will change here...(although I'm not holding my breath...)

[the fieryangel]

Here we have JzG giving us all a lesson in "civility"...

...you just can't make this stuff up....

In the meantime, Moreschi says that there's no Cabal.... citing the evidence of Folantin and Bishonen as well as NYBrad's reaction to a statement of Folantin to source this claim, although

Folantin and myself have, it is true, worked closely over a number of projects (List of major opera composers, List of important operas,

...neither of which involved any civility violations, goading, taunting, and plotting between Folantin and yourself?

...You brought that subject up, I didn't...

In contrast to this, OR's addition to this workshop page involves the actual subject of the case as it was presented, rather than the "burn the witch!" tactics currently used by Moreschi, Folantin, JzG et al....

Hopefully, this type of sanity in the face of the insanity of the others will lead to a balanced decision by the arbitrators. It's quite obvious that this issue is not one-sided...

[the fieryangel]

This comment by Moreschi is in extremely bad form...

Some people just don't know when to shut up...Keep up the good work, Moreschi!

He must be reading this, since he apparently thought it better to try to qualify that one!

[Mathsci]

The OUTING of Ottava Rima has been noticed on wikipedia and the giveway quote on Moreschi's talk page removed. It might be oversighted although it's probably too late, particularly since the quote has been posted in this thread...

True, but they won't find us by Googling his name, which is the main thing. I actually think this is one of those cases where it's important that Wikipedians know where this particular "editor" is coming from, ideologically speaking. That doesn't mean they have to know anything more than his name and where to find his column - they don't - but regardless, this is definitely not a person who appears to be inclined towards "neutrality" on much of anything, despite his protestations to the contrary.

Ottava is also fortunate in that there's a perennial third-party presidential candidate with the same name as him, whose politics are about as far from Ottava's as one can practically get. Most of the Google hits, etc., are going to be for that guy, which is always nice if you're trying to stay "under the radar."

...I agree with Fowler&Fowler that OR's writing skills, even as a would-be rural hack, are not impressive, certainly not those I would expect of a professional writer.

But they are those I would expect of a semi-professional polemicist...

I agree with you, Somey. The column is helpful in understanding him. Oddly enough I do feel a little sorry for OR. He seems to have got into a terrible trap, although mostly of his own making. One of those seven deadly sins rearing their ugly heads again ...

[A Horse With No Name]

"It stands to reason that Wikipedia would draw ego-driven writers"

Ego-driven writers? I've yet to meet a writer who wasn't ego-driven!

[Jon Awbrey]

"It stands to reason that Wikipedia would draw ego-driven writers"

Ego-driven writers? I've yet to meet a writer who wasn't ego-driven!

Well, there's ego-driven … and then there's ego-drivelin' …

Ja Ja

[Milton Roe]

I agree with you, Somey. The column is helpful in understanding him. Oddly enough I do feel a little sorry for OR. He seems to have got into a terrible trap, although mostly of his own making. One of those seven deadly sins rearing their ugly heads again ...

And for everybody straining their brains due to not having the time to keep up with all the redacted clues, here is that link again:

http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/articles...s/peters986.txt

Zoominfo will even create a site for you automatically if you have a column and put in your email address. So here are links to three more columns, just for grins:

http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/ReferencesV...onID=1326864186

I finally figured out who Ottava reminds me of: Peter Griffin's stepfather Francis Griffin.

http://familyguy.wikia.com/wiki/Francis_Griffin

I'm particularly fond of the scene where Francis tells the Pope he's too liberal.

[the fieryangel]

I agree with you, Somey. The column is helpful in understanding him. Oddly enough I do feel a little sorry for OR. He seems to have got into a terrible trap, although mostly of his own making. One of those seven deadly sins rearing their ugly heads again ...

Yes, and whose trap is this? Can anyone, other than OR, be considered responsible for this situation? Could it be that your friends are not as innocent as you would like to have us believe?

Feeling empathy is often the first step towards understanding. Congratulations! You're finally seeing the harm that this kind of railroading can create.

(Not to say that OR didn't bring much of this on himself. It's just that he's not the only person here who's created this mess...)

[Mathsci]

I agree with you, Somey. The column is helpful in understanding him. Oddly enough I do feel a little sorry for OR. He seems to have got into a terrible trap, although mostly of his own making. One of those seven deadly sins rearing their ugly heads again ...

Yes, and whose trap is this? Can anyone, other than OR, be considered responsible for this situation? Could it be that your friends are not as innocent as you would like to have us believe?

Feeling empathy is often the first step towards understanding. Congratulations! You're finally seeing the harm that this kind of railroading can create.

(Not to say that OR didn't bring much of this on himself. It's just that he's not the only person here who's created this mess...)

Fieryangel, you seem to be using this thread as your own blog.

I notice I've been mentioned along with my tag-team member Dougweller by Folantin on the evidence page. OR was trying to dismiss a university lecturer in the University of Cambridge, on the grounds that it's extremely easy to be appointed lecturer. That is quite untrue. However, it is the sort of thing that jumped up graduate students say all the time on wikipedia. Their other error is to think that everybody else is also a jumped up graduate student.

L'orgueil est une opinion très avantageuse, le plus souvent exagérée, qu'on a de sa valeur personnelle aux dépens de la considération due à autrui, à la différence de la fierté qui n'a nul besoin de se mesurer à l'autre ni de le rabaisser. Manque ou absence d'humilité.

Dans la religion catholique, il désigne un péché capital, celui qui donne le sentiment d'être plus important et plus méritant que les autres, de ne rien devoir à personne, ce qui se traduit par un mépris pour les autres et le reste de la création et un rejet de la révélation et de la miséricorde divines.

This post has been edited by Mathsci: Mon 16th November 2009, 11:10am

[the fieryangel]

L'orgueil est une opinion très avantageuse, le plus souvent exagérée, qu'on a de sa valeur personnelle aux dépens de la considération due à autrui, à la différence de la fierté qui n'a nul besoin de se mesurer à l'autre ni de le rabaisser. Manque ou absence d'humilité.
.

Thank you for pointing this out. You might try reading this last bit aloud several times a day, to remind yourself of this fact.

Wikipédia, comme la réligion Catholique, a ses rituels qui sont absolument necessaire à respecter, mais qui sont, également, soumis à la structure hiérarchique pour leur pratique dans l'absolue.

En effet, vous et vos amis, en tant qu'administrateur, sont (théoriquement) soumissent à une comportement plus formellement polie que celle des simples utilisateurs. Donc, vos manquement frequentes à ces règles comportementales sont ainsi plus condemnables. Si la comité d'arbitration était vraiment juste, vous et vos semblables seraient punis plus sévèrement que les utilisateurs. Mais, pour les raisons politiques (la comité est, sur le papier, soumise à la commauté, autrement dit les cinquante personnes qui, comme vous, sont responsable pour la plupart des ces diversions tellement amusantes....), ceci n'est point appliqué.

C'est bien cette atmosphère de non-conformité aux regles que je trouve injuste ici et je denounce fermement. Que vous l'acceptez ou pas, c'est bien ma position.

Dans le cas présent, il n'y a pas l'un pour l'achèter l'autre....

Are you satisfied now? Can we go back to English? (I don't mind continuing in French, if you're so inclined, but it's rather impolite...not that this has stopped any of you before...)


This comment is really funny in context, especially when you know of all of the backstabbing that Folatin has done in the past with Moreschi :

::Yes, it's irrelevant. I'm pretty sure all the people posting evidence against Ottava are highly productive users and they manage to edit Wikipedia without causing major drama. They would probably have been even more productive had Ottava not wasted so much of their time. --[[User:Folantin|Folantin]] ([[User talk:Folantin|talk]]) 10:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, kind of like that Swedish literature article that you and Moreschi did such a good job "ocrrecting" to get revenge for somebody opposing Moreschi's FAC for his pet article....

At least he's being careful how he phrases things, since he obviously knows that people are onto this tagteam game....However, OR is doing a very good job of lining those diffs up...

[A Horse With No Name]

And for everybody straining their brains due to not having the time to keep up with all the redacted clues, here is that link again:

http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/articles...s/peters986.txt

Zoominfo will even create a site for you automatically if you have a column and put in your email address. So here are links to three more columns, just for grins:

http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/ReferencesV...onID=1326864186

I finally figured out who Ottava reminds me of: Peter Griffin's stepfather Francis Griffin.

http://familyguy.wikia.com/wiki/Francis_Griffin

I'm particularly fond of the scene where Francis tells the Pope he's too liberal.

As a writer, OR is actually closer in style (not substance) to the syndicated column that is distributed in the US under Rev. Billy Graham's byline (I doubt that Graham himself is still writing it, given his health problems). The stylistic intensity of OR's focus is very pronounced and, as I am reading it, it is closer to US evangelical Christianity media rather than contemporary Catholic media.

[the fieryangel]

It looks as if OR has put the dreaded Folantin on the defensive.

As long as OR doesn't take the bait and lash out, then I think that he's scoring some major points here...

Good job!

However, Folantin provides this fascinating view of how he's helping Wikipedia :

I even bought and read the only full-length biography of Shah Abbas then available - it's in French.

My, we are impressed, aren't we!

[Eva Destruction]

I even bought and read the only full-length biography of Shah Abbas then available - it's in French.

My, we are impressed, aren't we!

He can't have searched very hard.