|
World War II, The anti-US version |
|
|
Emperor |
|
Postmaster
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,871
Joined:
Member No.: 2,042
|
When will Oberiko and his group stop? He's won just about every argument he's had, and still keeps going. He's got the article under constant semi-protection. He's deleted the American picture from the lead montage, and now there are 2 Soviet, 2 Commonwealth, and 2 Japanese. The Intro and infobox refuse to say that the war started in 1939, and the 1937/39 debate continues. The Intro and infobox don't list the major combatants The major commanders aren't listed anywhere in the article. (For fun, try to find "Eisenhower" or "Zhukov" anywhere on the page using Edit --> Find on this Page.) The entire article is written in Oberiko's weird wiki-summary style where the proper names of events are hidden within Wiki-links. See the Normandy Invasion coverage, in its entirety: QUOTE In June, 1944, the Western Allies invaded northern France And check my favorite passage: QUOTE The Soviets decided to make their stand at Stalingrad which was in the path of the advancing German armies and by mid-November the Germans had nearly taken Stalingrad in bitter street fighting when the Soviets began their second winter counter-offensive, starting with an encirclement of German forces at Stalingrad[94] and an assault on the Rzhev salient near Moscow, though the latter failed disastrously.[95 I've been following the article for years now, and seen people come and go but basically anyone who doesn't agree with Oberiko gets frustrated and leaves. He's not afraid to swing his administrator status and have people blocked who edit war with him or Parsecboy. I could go through line by line and point out not only anti-Western and anti-American bias, but also outright errors. Take the first line of the Background section: QUOTE In the aftermath of World War I, the defeated German Empire signed the Treaty of Versailles.[7] How does anyone not notice this for months and months? I've been watching it as an experiment to see if Wikipedians will ever get a clue, but, well, you see. Later in the background you'll find out that Germany's goal with Austria was to make it a "satellite state". Both of these statements are referenced too? Insult to injury: the Holocaust is described as "the systematic purging of Jews in Europe". Well I'm pretty sure English isn't Oberiko's first language, but then why doesn't anyone help him? Oh right, because it's so obvious that the article is Owned that you'd be an idiot to try to help. I know this breaks my rule of thumb not to help Wikipedia myself, but it is the number one search result and I'm feeling a bit of remorse just letting it fester, with it being around D-Day this week and having just recently talked to guy who was a B-29 pilot based in Saipan. I can't believe a generation of kids might be seeing their first encyclopedia article about WWII on Wikipedia. This post has been edited by Emperor:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Tue 10th June 2008, 9:48pm) QUOTE(ThurstonHowell3rd @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:43pm) This article does have a non-American POV, but I did not read anything that would be in my opinion be an error.
It was the Soviets who defeated the Germans. Before June, 1944 that vast majority of the allied forces fighting against Germany were from the Soviet Union and before the Allies opened up another front in Normandy in June, 1944 it was already certain that the Germans were going to be defeated.
Is it not equally obvious that had the war involved only Germany and Russia, leaving Germany access to world trade, that Russia would have been soundly defeated? The Russians get the credit for doing a large fraction of the fighting and most of the military dying in the European theater of WW II. But yes, if the Germans had captured Moscow and the oil fields, it would have been all over for the USSR, and with those oil fields, the Germans would have (temporarily) won the game of RISK. Until we atom bombed them sometime after August 1945, that is. But that was a wild joker nobody really knew would or could be played, until the previous month. As it was, the USSR came within a hair's breadth of losing it. And that's with massive Allied material aid, and a fair amount of Allied pin-down of German armies in Africa and Italy, which otherwise would have been decisive in the East. Much as in WW I, it really did take everybody to beat the Germans in "conventional" war. Unlike WW I, however, if everybody had not been able to win conventionally, the US still would have atom bombed the Germans into glowing embers, no matter how well they'd done, sometime in 1946. The Germans just could not reach the US with anything damaging, and would not have been able to, for some years. They had no aircraft carriers, and their plans for ultralong-range bombers were going to carry what? Nothing of consequence can be carried 3000 miles, except a nuke. But with an atom bomb, you can reach a long way and touch someone. If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have. This post has been edited by Milton Roe:
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 5:10pm) If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have.
The fire-bombing of Dresden was pretty awful, and as close to atomic weaponry as conventional bombs can be. I drove through there right after the wall fell, and it was still pretty much of a mess, as were the highways which didn't see repairs the entire 50 year period. QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Tue 10th June 2008, 9:48pm) Is it not equally obvious that had the war involved only Germany and Russia, leaving Germany access to world trade, that Russia would have been soundly defeated?
You mean if they were the only two countries in the world? Really, you cannot conjecture thus, or you have an entire new framework to add to ex post facto history. The US entry to the war was incredibly important. This was the frame of reference for the first 50 years after the war's end. If there are anti-American, or US-minimization elements on those articles, my guess is that they are twenty-somethings. There seems to be a sort of generational Euro-youth backlash against the pro-American gratitude of their parents. I've seen that myriad in the past 10 or so years.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Disillusioned Lackey @ Tue 10th June 2008, 10:29pm) QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 5:10pm) If we assume Germany had totally won in Europe (including against the UK), we could not have used the B-29 against them (no place to base it), and the bombs of 1945 couldn't be dropped from anything else. But smaller bombs dropable from carrier-launched B-25s would have been available within another year, and that would have been it, for Germany. It's well that it didn't end that way, but it could have. And certainly would have.
The fire-bombing of Dresden was pretty awful, and as close to atomic weaponry as conventional bombs can be. I drove through there right after the wall fell, and it was still pretty much of a mess, as were the highways which didn't see repairs the entire 50 year period. For sure, but in my alternate history, I'm assuming US is out, as was the premise. Germany doesn't declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor, so we don't enter the war in Europe (having no excuse). By the time we do, Germany has captured the USSR and subsequently invaded England (or starved it to death). Both events as it was coming within a month of happening, even with the US involved and sending supplies like crazy. So when it comes time to deal with Germany in 1946 we have no English base from which to mount an invason or firebomb cities (which takes hundreds of airplanes only flying a few hundred miles). Festung Europa really is that, without North Africa or England to launch from. Nobody creates firestorms from across the Atlantic, without nuclear weapons. Even firebombing Tokyo (which, was as bad as Dresden with twice the death toll) took 300 really big B29 planes from (as I remember) Saipan. Couldn't have done that from a carrier, nor from across an ocean. Nah, if you have no base, B-25s from carriers, with A-bombs, is about all you get.
|
|
|
|
Proabivouac |
|
Bane of all wikiland
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,246
Joined:
Member No.: 2,647
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:00am) For sure, but in my alternate history, I'm assuming US is out, as was the premise. Germany doesn't declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor, so we don't enter the war in Europe (having no excuse). By the time we do, Germany has captured the USSR and subsequently invaded England (or starved it to death). Both events as it was coming within a month of happening, even with the US involved and sending supplies like crazy.
There are several other plausible alternate histories. One is that England and France fail to declare war on Germany following the invasion of Poland - it wouldn't be the first time they'd backed down, and really not a bad move, as the war was a disaster for both empires, and of course France was eliminated nearly outright. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule. Another is that England and Germany make a deal following the fall of France, with German withdrawal from Norway, Belgium and France, excepting Alsace-Lorraine, and some kind of protectorate in Denmark and Holland, in exchange for favorable terms of trade within the British Empire - a completely sensible deal on its face which would have benefited all concerned. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule.
|
|
|
|
Milton Roe |
|
Known alias of J. Random Troll
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,209
Joined:
Member No.: 5,156
|
QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Wed 11th June 2008, 12:28am) There are several other plausible alternate histories. One is that England and France fail to declare war on Germany following the invasion of Poland - it wouldn't be the first time they'd backed down, and really not a bad move, as the war was a disaster for both empires, and of course France was eliminated nearly outright. Then Germany and Russia come to blows on their own schedule.
I've got to read Pat Buchannan's Churchill, Hilter, and the Unnecessary War which has that premise. But I've no doubt Barbarosa would still have happened, even with France intact, and then the USSR would have been toast without Allied help. Would the Allies have sat that one out, too? But the Nazis really were evil, so we would have had to fight them eventually. WW II was necessary so long as Hitler was in power. Just a question of when. The longer we wait, the stronger he gets...
|
|
|
|
Disillusioned Lackey |
|
Unregistered
|
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:55pm) I've got to read Pat Buchannan's Churchill, Hilter, and the Unnecessary War which has that premise.
Oh Gawd. He wrote a book on that premise? (And you'd read it?) Why not save the money and... spend it on anything else QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 10th June 2008, 7:55pm) But I've no doubt Barbarosa would still have happened, even with France intact, and then the USSR would have been toast without Allied help. Would the Allies have sat that one out, too? But the Nazis really were evil, so we would have had to fight them eventually. WW II was necessary so long as Hitler was in power. Just a question of when. The longer we wait, the stronger he gets...
The US would have been dragged into the war eventually. Both of the major axis powers were on-the-move until they mopped it all up, or until someone stopped them. Eventually, England and France would have been attacked, Poland, or no Poland. From the German perspective, that war was all about overcoming the shame/stimga of signing the economy-crushing Treaty of Versailles (Keynes actually wrote a thesis one how German repayment of the financial obligations was impossible to complete without wiping out the national budget). I forget the exact circumstances, but when France capitulated to Germany after the WW2 invasion, signatory was in the same place, or the same pen, or something meaningful, as in "payback time." Poland was simply easy to attack, and the Germans considered it lost property, i.e. Prussia, as they also did the Sudetenland (then-Czechoslovakia), both of were populated with significant levels of ethnic German. Hitler 'picked off' the countries he could attack more easily, then swung at the big fish later. Recall that Russia was an ally for a while, then got attacked. If Axis-Germany had mowed the world down, and the US (etc) didn't exist, Axis-Germany would have taken out Japan in the end, in a horrific-bizarro-world situation. Axis-Germany had no allies, just temporary partners. (reminds me of some person... oh never mind)This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:
|
|
|
|
Posts in this topic
Emperor World War II cyofee Boo hoo, America isn't mentioned enough. There... Emperor
Boo hoo, America isn't mentioned enough. Ther... Peter Damian
How does anyone not notice this for months and m... sarcasticidealist Could you help me out here, as I know very little ... guy
Were I to wish to be a dingus about this, I'd... sarcasticidealist What about the Italian invasion of Abyssinia in 19... Herschelkrustofsky
Saying the war started in 1937 is an error, not a... Emperor
How does anyone not notice this for months and ... sarcasticidealist The Kaiser abdicated and the German Empire ceased ... guy
This article does have a non-American POV, but I ... ThurstonHowell3rd
This article does have a non-American POV, but I... Yehudi
I would contend calling these events a "the ... Herschelkrustofsky
The fire-bombing of Dresden was pretty awful, and... Disillusioned Lackey
The death toll was substantially greater than Hi... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='107164' da... Disillusioned Lackey Oh. dogbiscuit
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='107164' d... thekohser
The most horrifying feature was that Dresden had ... House of Cards
Not so fast on Dresden. It all depends on what y... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='107175' da... Milton Roe
[quote name='thekohser' post='107233' date='Wed 1... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='thekohser' post='107233' date='Wed ... Milton Roe
Well, as I mentioned, this point is moot, because... everyking
This article does have a non-American POV, but I... Emperor By the way, does anyone else think that parts of t... House of Cards Any articles involving Eastern European history ar... everyking
Any articles involving Eastern European history a... Milton Roe
This is preposterous. Nobody claims that there wa... House of Cards Yes. That doesn't get a lot of historical att... Disillusioned Lackey
A major reason why there is little attention to t... House of Cards As an interesting note, the US Veterans Associatio... Proabivouac
As an interesting note, the US Veterans Associati... Rootology
As an interesting note, the US Veterans Associati... House of Cards
As an interesting note, the US Veterans Associat... House of Cards Ah, sorry. Not just the carnage, but everything el... Neil As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in r... thekohser
As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in ... Pumpkin Muffins
As I recall, wasn't Dresden firebombed a] in... everyking
[quote name='thekohser' post='107233' date='Wed 1... Pumpkin Muffins
That's what humans do under certain conditio... everyking
That's what humans do under certain conditi... Proabivouac
Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are ... everyking
Actually, I think capitalism and imperialism are... Pumpkin Muffins
A false dichotomy: cooperation with and generosi... Proabivouac
I don't understand your point. Are you trying... GlassBeadGame I am always troubled by the equating of Hitler and... Emperor Google and Yahoo think that Wikipedia has the best... Emperor Since everyone is sharing, had I been Truman I wou... The Joy
Since everyone is sharing, had I been Truman I wo... Emperor
The "revisionists" or fringe theorists ... Proabivouac
Of course it's easier to obsess about Allied ... Disillusioned Lackey
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti... Emperor
What's with the "anger" comment? S... Moulton Every human being should be insulted at the notion... Viridae
As an interesting note, the US Veterans Associati... Moulton There is a small museum in the town of Los Alamos ... Emperor Now look at the intro:
World War II or the Second... Emperor In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechosl... Milton Roe
In March 1939 Germany invaded the rump of Czechos... Emperor
That's the way I remember it. "Rump... Bottled_Spider England knew for sure from that date it would inev... Emperor
No no no. You're being selective in your quot... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='157706' date='Sat ... LessHorrid vanU [quote name='Milton Roe' post='157706' date='Sat 2... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='157706' date='Sat ... LessHorrid vanU
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='157706' date='Sat... Emperor
To Emperor - that is how the nation styled itself... dogbiscuit
Winston was not liked in his own party let alone ... Milton Roe
Winston was not liked in his own party let alone ... Emperor
He got blamed for Galipoli in WW I, which wasn... Milton Roe
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='158145' date='Mon ... Emperor
In the US civil war McClellan was defeated again ... everyking
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='158145' date='Mon ... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
[quote name='Milton Roe' post='158145' date='Mon ... A Horse With No Name
I feel likewise about Operation Market Garden...... Casliber I remember the very first time I looked at WP I r... Emperor Oh dear. Be careful talking about "Great Bri... Floydsvoid This is neither here nor there.
I've grown qu... Emperor Update - I just checked in on the Wikipedia articl... Trick cyclist
Also, there's no picture of Hitler, though od... Emperor
Also, there's no picture of Hitler, though o... Emperor Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this top... Cla68
Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this to... radek
[quote name='Emperor' post='222912' date='Mon 22n... everyking
Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this t... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='Cla68' post='224159' date='Tue 2nd M... Enric_Naval
Still to this day Wikipedia can't get this t... BelovedFox If I could be bothered with it, I'd probably t... Emperor
If I could be bothered with it, I'd probably ... radek
If I could be bothered with it, I'd probably... Emperor
Dang it I wish I wasn't topic banned!
h... radek
Dang it I wish I wasn't topic banned!
... CharlotteWebb
The Eastern European mailing list. And the topic ... thekohser
Sure would be nice if they actually defined easte... radek
[quote name='radek' post='224155' date='Mon 1st M... CharlotteWebb
I do think however that there is SOME common sens... Trick cyclist
I think defining it as Belarus, Russia, and the U... CharlotteWebb
I think they like to pretend theyre Scandinavian.... HRIP7
I think they like to pretend theyre Scandinavian... CharlotteWebb
In the case of the Estonians, it's not entire... HRIP7
In the case of the Estonians, it's not entir... Milton Roe
For the realz I'll take Martin Gilbert or Nor... BelovedFox
For the realz I'll take Martin Gilbert or No... Emperor Apparently seven references is the perfect number.... thekohser
Apparently seven references is the perfect number... Emperor The moderators have moved this thread without givi... EricBarbour The moderators have moved this thread without givi... dogbiscuit
The moderators have moved this thread without giv... Emperor
The moderators have moved this thread without giv... Emperor Radek, save your breath. This thread has been mov... radek
Radek, save your breath. This thread has been mo... Cla68
Radek, save your breath. This thread has been m... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
Radek, save your breath. This thread has been mo... RDH(Ghost In The Machine) May I ask, with all due respect and love, who the ... GlassBeadGame
May I ask, with all due respect and love, who the... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
[quote name='RDH(Ghost In The Machine)' p... EricBarbour Ok, I see you JakeSooly.
Since some of the partici... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
[quote name='RDH(Ghost In The Machine)' p... TungstenCarbide [quote name='TungstenCarbide' post='224687' date='... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
[quote name='RDH(Ghost In The Machine)' p... GlassBeadGame
[quote name='RDH(Ghost In The Machine)' ... TungstenCarbide Ok, I see you JakeSooly.
Since some of the partici... radek
[quote name='RDH(Ghost In The Machine)' p... Emperor Just more disrespect for content-generators by adm... dogbiscuit I'm with the anals.
If the problems of this t... RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
I'm with the anals.
If the problems of this ... Emperor Another howler:
Wikipedia - 2/13/12
For those ... Mister Die WWII is one of those Wikipedia articles that I don... radek
WWII is one of those Wikipedia articles that I do... Selina [url=http://wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Carolmooredc]... Emperor Well to read the "Occupation" section as... Selina
Well to read the "Occupation" section a... Emperor
Another example of poor writing quality, error, ... Fusion
Second, "retaining some or all of their colo... Eppur si muove
Second, "retaining some or all of their col... Fusion
Algeria certainly regarded themselves as a colony... Emperor
Algeria certainly regarded themselves as a colon... Fusion
Basically making the debate here about some hyper... Emperor
Basically making the debate here about some hype... Fusion
Is your argument that this statement is 100% tr... Emperor
Is your argument that this statement is 100% t... Fusion
My issues with the statement are:
1) "retai... Web Fred
[quote name='Web Fred' post='303514' date='Sun 2... Emperor
My issues with the statement are:
1) "reta... Web Fred
In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than Br... Emperor
In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than B... Fusion
In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than Br... Emperor
In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than B... Fusion
First let's just agree to exclude Russia from... Emperor
First let's just agree to exclude Russia fro... Fusion
Russia's interactions with Eastern Europe and... Web Fred
Russia's interactions with Eastern Europe an... Web Fred America is of course not in Europe. It too lost s... Emperor
Second, "retaining some or all of their col... Mister Die
[quote name='Fusion' post='303307' date='Mon 19th... Mister Die I wonder what'd happen if a bunch of guys got ... Emperor
I wonder what'd happen if a bunch of guys got... Emperor I just noticed the caption under the map:
World m... Mister Die [quote name='Emperor' post='303665' date='Mon 26th... Emperor
[quote name='Emperor' post='303665' date='Mon 26t... Text Buy yourself some good, old, high school books abo...
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
| |