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 The JoshuaZ sockpuppeting post |
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| thekohser |
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I was encouraged to post this. I had nothing to do with its formulation. Greg ---- ==== ---- ==== Suspected socksBackgroundSecret (aka Aranda56) noticed Gothnic as an obviuous sock by his contribs on controversial DRVs and obvious knowledge of the system. He asked CU's to look into it. CU's identified Gothnic as using same IP as admin JoshuaZ ( contribs · block log) and a third user, Miles Naismith ( contribs · block log). For a brief time a RFCU was set up, then on advice he tagged it for deletion [1] (note: reproduced at bottom), leaving the handling off-wiki (drama reduction). Due to delicacy of situation (Joshua is a long-standing admin of repute and also someone WR would love to see take a fall) it was handled by inquiry by Jimmy. Joshua agrees the evidence looks "damning", denies socking, states it must be a stetup by someone affiliated with WR using computers he uses, and offered to desysop quietly. Checkusers disagree and conclude very likely socking, noting the identical IPs from a variety of locations used by all 3 accounts in common, some of which appear to be private residences as well as college, plus behavioral mannerisms are very similar. Further info - detail how it came out and why the RFCU was set up, modified, and deleted (if needed)It seems that Aranda56 (User:Secret) spotted the oddness of gothnic, felt there was a good chance it was a GHBH or abusive sock, and likely of an admin making it serious. Seems to have referred it to more experienced users on the basis "possible admin problem; what should I do". One way or another it ended up being passed by him to Alison (it seems), who I gather passed it back without details saying "request checkuser on this one", Secret asked my advice concerned that if he just posted a request it would be deleted as fishing, and wanting it to be opened as per advice. I think I checked for myself to verify there was a concern, then suggested that if he posted RFCU (see above), I would endorse per Alison, to the extent of confirming that this was being looked at, so please leave open. Daniel noticed it and then said that it was a Bad Idea and if there was a problem like this and it might reflect on an admin, handle it at arbcom not on RFCU since it might blacken a user before the case could be checked fully. I concurred, so I explained to Secret, then deleted it at his request/agreement. Notable is that Aranda suspected it was JoshuaZ, and asked me more than once "is the other admin account JoshuaZ, but I did not comment, nor it seems did Alison or anyone else. Which is why the RFCU request does not name JoshuaZ himself -- no checkuser was willing to tell Secret any details, or the name of the admin who turned up, but merely that it was worth a RFCU. Evidence: IP evidenceQUOTE Dmcdevit:If anything, it looks likely that all three are the same. Keep in mind that both Gothnic and Miles Naismith have only about 75 edits combined. They start voting and participating in deletion discussions within their first few edits. (Gothnic was discussing the Brandt deletion review on his fourth edit.) Neither of them can be a "sockmaster" if there is one. I would say that based on the IPs alone, Miles Naismith must be JoshuaZ. They share in common every single (five, total) IP address Miles used, in two different ISPs, and it's on not-hugely-dynamic DSL. Basically all the IPs come from New Haven, so Newyorkbrad is probably right about him being at Yale, though it's not clear if those are off-campus IPs or not (I would have assumed that Yale would be its own ISP). Note, for instance, on 69.37.124.45 where Miles' edits are interspersed with JoshuaZ; hard to argue that it was a shared pool there (the ISP reassigned the same IP *back* to JoshuaZ?) or a public terminal at the university. I am essentially ready to confirm the three are the same. QUOTE Alison:
Actually, I dug over this case in great detail already today - agonised over it and got a second c/u opinion (Blnguyen - it's in the logs). It's pretty much as you see it. Since everyone here is signed off and we're all checkusers;
* 77.150.37.69.in-addr.arpa. 7200 IN PTR 69.37.150.77.adsl.snet.net.
* 251.113.51.64.in-addr.arpa. 86400 IN PTR 64-51-113-251.client.dsl.net.
Both of these machines are live right now (I portscanned them). Both of them are on long-term DHCP leases over DSL lines, so they're either domestic or small business. Unlikely latter, I feel. The addresses are ostensibly static.
The fact that JoshuaZ and Gothnic share two very different IPs over two distinct ISPs is pretty damning. All user agents are identical on both of Gothnic's IPs. The additional votestacking on highly controversial DRV cases only confirms it. I'd be pretty certain without the on-wiki evidence here. In fact, I'd just come on here to confirm the case at RFCU having thought about it for some time.
As you pointed out, hostip.info/geobytes.com tell me most of the IPs are in New Haven, CT.
Thoughts?
-- Allie Evidence: Behavioral evidenceQUOTE FT2:Similarities in edit summary: - Gothnic "[articlename] - - dead template" [3]
- .....Josh
- ....."[articlename]See also - - research ban, now discussed in article" [4]
- Gothnic "Offensive - oops" [5]
- .....Josh
- ....."Close of DRV - oops" [6]
- ....."[articlename]Menachem Mendel Schneerson - oops" [7]
- ....."Revert warring - ooops" [8]
- ....."[articlename]Controversial remarks - oops" [9]
- ....."[articlename][[[Daniel Brandt]]]
- .....- oops, thanks Milo" [10]
- Gothnic - "+category. more is good" [11]
- .....Josh (too many to list)
- ....."+ [articlename]" [12]
- ....."+ dropping" [13]
- ....."+ molecular similarities. I'll take a look at the paper when I have time" [14]
- ....."+ more citations, expanding. noting controversial nature in lead" [15]
- ....."+ ref" [16]
- ....."+categories" [17]
- ....."+ sourcing, including Schwarz's own words" [18]
- ....."+ deletion category" [19]
- ....."+ Cyde's blog" [20]
- ....."+spa tag" [21]
- ....."++vandal counter" [22]
- ....."+references" [23]
- ....."+AfD stats" [24]
- ....."+wikiquote" [25]
- ....."+refs section" [26]
- Gothnic - '""Hmm - agree" [27]
- .....Josh
- ....."Positive reviews - hmm" [28]
- ....."Hmm, this is probably going to take a bot" [29]
- ....."hmm, now agree with John" [30]
- ....."hmm, recentism is serious problem in this case" [31]
- ....."Blumpkin redirect - hmmm" [32]
- ....."Suggested changes to put in BLP related material - hmm" [33]
- ....."Polls "(quote)" - hmm" [34]
- ....."rv, hmm, apparently correct" [35]
- ....."Notability - hmm" [36]
- ....."Discussion on need for more bureaucrats - hmm" [37]
- Gothnic - ",c -> , c" [38]
- .....Josh
- ....."duscover -> dustcover" [39]
- ....."it's ->its" [40]
- ....."Official response - claimed->state" [41]
- ....."Plot - can't -> cannot per MOS" [42]
- ....."Further study - any->an" [43]
- ....."aren't -> are not per MOS" [44]
- ....."Criticism - can't->cannot" [45]
- ....."IN->In" [46]
- ....."variability -> verifiability + wkfy" [47]
- ....."Libelled -> libeled" [48]
- ....."14-years -> 14 years" [49]
- ....."anm->an" [50]
- Miles - "[articlename] - keep" [[51][52][53][54]
- Miles - "[articlename] - new section" [55]
- Gothnic - "[articlename] - overturn" [56][57][58][59][60]
- Gothnic - "[articlename] - delete" [61];
- .....Josh (too many to list)
- ....."[articlename] - new section" (hundreds)
- .....(To add links for these. This set presently incomplete. See Josh's contribs for examples of all these styles)
- Miles - "Actually...." [62] (dot dot dot)
- .....Josh
- ....."Actually.... - partial agreement" [63]
- ....."Looks like I'm fighting a losing battle here..." [64]
- ....."References - in the meantime..." [65]
- ....."[articlename] - um, I don't think you meant to stick that SPA tag there..." [66]
- ....."Block - ok there..." [67]
- ....."[articlename] - I'm not going to be popular here..." [68]
- ....."Umm ... why is this being closed early?" [69]
- ....."Dinosaurs? - shira is correct but..." [70]
- ....."So-called books by Archimedes Plutonium - and...." [71]
- ....."++vandal counter. I suppose i'm not making Cyde happy..." [72]
- ....."I Just Did a Quick Tally... - yeah, it appears you did" [73]
- ....."Wikipedian... - wow. so it is" [74]
- Other features noted -- habitual starting of edit summary sentences in lowercase; sentences in comments start with lowercase; identical styling, spelling of AfD with lowercase "f" (see Gothnic's edits), meticulous grammar and spelling (a poor speller and grammaticist would find that almost impossible to consistently fake however desirous), .
In short, every notable feature I found to match in their edit summaries, matched. Regarding the question of stalking, I don't know if anyone noticed this too, but if Gothnic was copying Josh in the above, he must have been doing so since * November 2006 * in some cases..... [75][76] and January/February 2007 in others [77][78][79]. A second person, who not only can edit from the same geographical locations Josh has access to (including at least two IPs that seem to be private residences or non-campus locations Josh edits from), who has advance knowledge what Josh will edit, and who has meticulously copied his every edit summary mannerism since the date of account creation in November 2006... but never sought to out him or be noticed as a sock/meatpuppet. Josh has never alleged it was a housemate (if innocent he would surely think "who could have a WP account in my circle, let's go ask them"), and yet this person has faithfully mirrored him for * 15 months * now, on two accounts... for what? If it was to impugn or frame him, it's an awfully funny way to go about it, and one might have edited several other articles long ago, then arranged for it to be "noticed". Conclusion - Gothnic was not intended to be noticed, or set Josh up. What Gothnic does do is overwhelmingly edit in a manner almost indistinguishable behaviorally from Josh in almost all the small ways, use the same IPs as Josh, edit with identical style to Josh, vote on controversial articles Josh votes on, and attempt not to get noticed. Arbitrator/other discussion(salient emails, others are still on mailing list) - Newyorkbrad - "I took a look at Gothnic's contributions. I think it's public information that JoshuaZ is a student at Yale. A checkuser might want to go to the Yale website, look up their school calendar, and see if the edits also correllate during breaks."
- Jimmy Wales - "I would argue strongly against public disclosure of suspicions unless there is already a public dustup somewhere. There are a number of possible explanations (there always are, of course, checkuser at best only proves that two people were using the same computer(s) at close to the same time)... girlfriend, boyfriend, best friend, co-worker, little sister, etc. JoshuaZ has been around for a very long time and is an admin in good standing. Not a newbie, not even a newbie admin, not a problem admin (unless I have overlooked something). All of those things would argue for a heartfelt effort to understand what has happened, privately, long before the public trolls and conspiracy theorists tear him to shreds for it. Joshua is an inclusionist and has had some dustups with the deletionist camp, but I really can't see him being motivated to cut corners like this. If I had to predict, he will not deny the connection, but will instead produce something that will look a lot like meatpuppetry."
- David Gerard - "I too would be shocked to see him sockpuppeting like this - he's opinionated, but fundamentally a solid fellow IME."
- FloNight - "He couldn't possibly think he would get by with socking, could he?. He is not stupid and understands the ways we look for socks. These are pretty obvious, right? It is kinda hard for me to believe that he would risk everything in order to close a few discussion his preferred way. For that reason, I think a meatpuppet explanation of like minded friends is more likely. According to comments that I've seen on WR he is despised by some folks that 'play hard ball'. They would love to see him discredited. I suggest we (through Jimbo) approach him privately.
- Sam Blacketer - "I think a quiet approach just informing him of concerns and asking if he has any comments to make would be the best. There's no imminent problem and no need to rush into anything. I also suppose that if the response is an admission of past mistakes and a solemn pledge not to do so in the future, then the matter could be closed and there would be no need to mention anything publicly - just keep an eye out to make sure he kept to his word."
- David Gerard - "Joshua emailed me too, asking 'wtf?!' I said there were checkusers concerned at the possibility of a socking admin - a serious worry situation - even though I and others found it highly implausible he as a person would do such a thing. He responded that he's likely to share an editing pattern with lots of people around Yale, such as User:Shirachadasha, who he knows personally. (Was that one of the matching names?)"
- Jayjg - (To JoshuaZ) "Yes. CheckUser has revealed other accounts that, on the face of it, look very much like they are yours. If you have been using other accounts, a full confession and an explanation would probably get the best response."
- Jayjg - "User:Shirahadasha is a respected admin on Wikipedia. His editing interests don't overlap Joshua's, nor is his writing style similar."
- Comment by Dmcdevit:
This is an unacceptable response. Has everyone forgotten the issue here? It is almost a certainty based on the evidence that they are the same person on *the same computer*, and using some implausible defense about sharing the same school with other people shouldn't cut it. If Josh can't even come up with a proper story about his roommate using his computer or something, then it's pretty obvious he's lying and should be desysopped forthwith. This is, basically, a pretty obvious case of sockpuppetry from my end, having not interacted with Josh much before, and I hope he's not getting unfair treatment because you like him.
Remember, he and the sockpuppets shared IPs simultaneously, switching back and forth, the voted at several of the same contentious debates (even though the sock accounts had very few real edits, they still voted in all the Brandt debates), and when Josh even made a couple edits from an ISP he doesn't usually use, the sock account used that IP at the same time, too (so, if it is the "roommate," they must be attached at the hip, too). David, if you think it's implausible, I urge you to actually do the checkuser yourself; it's hard find a way to come up with an explanation that they *aren't* the same person. - David Gerard - "I must admit I haven't actually done the checkuser. I considered it implausible because I can't imagine him being that much of a dick. I could of course be grievously wrong."
- .....Dmcdevit - "Please review [the emails quoted above] again if you've forgotten the evidence. It's not just damning, it's clear-cut. Both of us who looked at it would have given a {{confirmed}} on a hypothetical RFCU on-wiki."
- Jayjg - "I think another of the issues was that these were DSL-type IPs, not shared or dialup. That said, I'd like to assume good faith for now, and give JoshuaZ the opportunity to explain this if possible. Should he be confronted with the evidence, or the names of the accounts?"
- Blnguyen - "Well to be honest, my heart told me that it must have been a joke or something when my head looked at the IPs, which appeared to show a multiple direct hit IPs on an IP range. In high profile DRVs/AFDs, one extra raised hand isn't going to have any useful impact on the result in a numerical sense since there are usually 40+ people on these votes. Since AFDs and DRVs give the closer a lot of room to move wrt numbers and such, anybody who feels strongly, would usually just do a dubious close (or ask a friend to). It seems inexplicable why a veteran admin would do such a thing with basically no possible benefit, on high profile 'political' debates where so many people will sniff for sockpuppets everywhere."
- FloNight to JoshuaZ:
So you do not use any other accounts...only JoshuaZ? Do you have a close friend that edits with you? Someone that might at times supported your same views in discussions? Have you ever told a friend about an issue on wiki-en and they supported the view...what we would call a meatpuppet? It is important to know this because there seems to be strong ip evidence of multiple accounts from the same ip doing stuff that is outside of what would be expected from an experienced and trusted user like yourself. We are trying to consider all options in a case where the evidence is so strong that most users would have already had their multiple accounts blocked. We are being as open minded about this as possible.
JoshuaZ response to FloNightQUOTE So you do not use any other accounts...only JoshuaZ?
I mentioned to Jayjg and Jimbo before there have been three accounts used by me previous. User:Rookwood was before I was an admin when I needed a fake individual to get in Jason Gastrich's good graces. User:CyberDalek was made with a similar idea in mind by me and Will Beback but it never got off the ground. I made a third account a long time ago so that if I ever needed to vanish I could resume editing with an account that would have had some prior history (the account had maybe a handful of edits 2 years ago, and I don't recall its name unfortunately).
Do you have a close friend that edits with you? Someone that might at times supported your same views in discussions? Have you ever told a friend about an issue on wiki-en and they supported the view...what we would call a meatpuppet?
I'm not sure. I rant to Shirahadasha all the time (he and I know each other in real life and he and I have edited from overlapping IP addresses before). Frankly, as should be apparent from my behavior on Wikipedia, I rant to pretty much anyone if I think something is wrong. I've ranted to people about NPOV problems and difficulties on fringe science articles, I've ranted about the BLP policy being taken to an extreme that hurts the project, I've ranted similarly about BADSITES and related proposals, most recently I've started ranting about EPISODES.
It is important to know this because there seems to be strong ip evidence of multiple accounts from the same ip doing stuff that is outside of what would be expected from an experienced and trusted user like yourself. We are trying to consider all options in a case where the evidence is so strong that most users would have already had their multiple accounts blocked. We are being as open minded about this as possible.
That's very kind of you. I've been asking around the places I frequent but had no success. (I know that there has been some limited editing from my brother about a single specific topic Book and Snake that I've never touched (I've tried to get him to abide by COI guidelines with only some success), and my sister who was editing my father's article Edward Zelinsky as Mushupancake (and she lives in New York anyways so our overlap would be small. I've only edited from her apartment about a year ago). I know no other editing has occurred by family members at our house because a) they would have mentioned it and B) I would have seen it in the browser histories. For Yale IPs there are at least 4 people who edit in roughly the same IP range. Shira (who I already mentioned), RageSoss (if he is what is triggering this(possible since we both edit things related to fringe and pseudoscience issues then you can simply verify that both he and I showed up to the last New York meetup). There are a handful of other editors who edit from Yale (one of whom I know keeps forgetting his password and making new accounts- Daniel Hoffman. If the matter has shown up only in say Judaism AfDs then it would probably be due to that. We've discussed some of those at some length).
I mentioned to David Gerard the possibility that there is some sort of deliberate frame-up; there was a group of Yale students who were writing very subtle hoax articles and I got them in trouble. If the editing started in February 07 it was Yale IP addresses then that's a likely explanation For that matter, for all I know they are working with someone at Wikipedia Review. AT the risk of sounding conspiratorial, Daniel Brandt got information off of me from Facebook.com that he could have only gotten with the cooperation of someone who was either a) my friend on facebook or B) in the Yale or Yale alumni networks.
I might have a better explanation if I had some idea what the accounts looked like or what they were doing. I'm feel somewhat reminded of the old legal issue; any legal system is going to convict some non-zero fraction of innocent people. As a society we make a decision about what level is low enough to be acceptable. But no matter how low we make it, someone is going to get convicted who is innocent, and from that person's perspective, the burden of proof should be set lower. This isn't really that good an analogy since you've gone out of your way (from your description at least) to assume good faith. If Jimbo, wants me to resign my admin tools I'll do it although I would appreciate if that could be done quietly (for that matter, I'm an admin now on Wikinews, so I should probably resign that admin bit also). The integrity of the project is obviously more important than any one administrator, and frankly I don't actually use the tools more than about 15 or 20 times a week, so it isn't like the project is really losing that much given my current level of productivity. I'm more concerned with my reputation among people such as you who I consider to be both friends and colleagues. - Dmcdevit - "Basically, it's seems he is trying to imagine all the people he could have talked to about Wikipedia in the real world who could have showed up on an IP he used. It seems to be his defense (ie. he claims innocence). Try reading Josh's email, and then read the email that Allison sent us about her checkuser (I copied it below, after his). He is acting like it's someone that was just found making an edit an an IP he has used. But it's more complex than that since his account and one of the socks shared IPs on two different ISPs, and the other shared all five of its IPs with him, meaning that if it was someone else, they basically had to stalk him to all of his internet connections at about the same time he used them each time. This situation reminds me of NSLE, where he gave an implausible denial and stuck to it anyway."
JoshuaZ further emailQUOTE Ok, I think I found the account you are talking about. I operated under the assumption that this was Wikipedia Review related which Paul (FeloniousMonk) suggested. Given their obsession with BLP deletion issues and their perception that I am somehow the incarnation of evil on those issues, I assumed that any sock designed to look like me would likely edit such material. Making the sock call for overturns frequently would do the trick. Using this process, I found User:Gothnic. This account screams out sock just from its contributions.
I am almost certain this is the account you were talking about. I don't know whether to be appalled or flattered that you didn't immediately desysop me. Frankly, I'm strongly tempted to ask that my admin tools be taken away until this is resolved; the evidence simply based on contributions is bad enough as is. If there is also checkuser evidence then there should not have been this amount of leeway given to me. Having someone temporarily not have the tools while a serious issue is sorted out isn't going to kill them.
The user also almost never makes edits interwoven with mine. But not to worry too much; I realized an explanation for that; it isn't at all hard to since I almost always have may AIM screename on when I'm editing or when I'm on a computer at all. The AIM sn is JoshuaZelinsky which isn't hard to figure out and I think is known to at least Daniel Brandt(the sn used to be on my facebook profile which Brandt had access to through some Yale connection (I think I mentioned this in another email)). So all one would need to do is to make sure not edit when I'm listed as online. It is a clever little trick which may explain that.
Now, the good news is that assuming this is the account in question (which I grow increasingly confident of), I'm pretty sure that I can show that a) this account made edits when I was in or leaving to Puerto Rico (so unless the IP is also in PR that should clear me) and B) that this account made mistakes in trying to imitate me and c) that the editing style is not mine. Not only is it not mine but my gut is that there are multiple people using the Gothnic account. I'm not entirely sure what makes it seem that way, but I think if I stare at the contributions a bit longer I will be able to make explicit what I'm seeing.
Would it be useful for me to explain my reasoning in more detail? - FloNight - "I'm going to request that he volunteer not to use his admin tools for now. If he is being set up as he suggests, then a voluntary desyop will be quickly noted and widely discussed in WR. Secret is also likely watching for it so we would have to be prepared to answer questions about it. This should give us time to sort this out."
- FloNight - (To JoshuaZ) "I would appreciate you voluntarily agreeing to not use your tools for now. Requesting a desysop at permissions will generate questions, I think. We are interested in hearing explanations that can explain the appearance of socking and any evidence that you feel will clear you. We identified more than one account with editing from your ips. User:Gothnic was one, yes."
JoshuaZ further email and caseQUOTE Ok, I will not use the tools until this is sorted out with one exception; I will continue to use my ability to look at deleted edits in the limited context of searching for the additional socks you mention; if you would prefer that I not do that, I will refrain from that as well. I am at this point strongly convinced that this is related to Wikipedia Review or the Yale kids, possibly both. A variety of observations follow: First, one piece of evidence that might clear me is that Gothnic edited at 17:01, 21 December 2007. I was on my way to Puerto Rico then; David Gerard can confirm that I had discussed with him that I was leaving to PR. I discussed that with him in the context of Wikien-l. Furthermore, if the software that runs Wikien-l keeps track of time stamps for when people change preferences (I don't know if it does; presumably David does know) it should show that I switched my Wikien-l subscription from recieving emails to not recieving prior to that edit. Second, the editing style indicates someone who is not me, possibly multiple people. The editor who uses it initially uses frequent edit summaries like an experienced Wikipedian. ( Gothnic contribs) As you can also see the account early on does not captalize the first letter of edit summaries. Unfortunately, I don't capitalize them either, so if anything that is evidence against me. However, the account later does start capitalizing, and moreover uses much shorter edit summaries. The only edit summaries from December 12 onwards are simply one word "Overturn" and all but one are capitalized. Note that the account makes other edits but does not make edit summaries. The most reasonable conclusion I can draw from that is that multiple people were using the account and that it swithced sometime after October 9, 2007 which is when the last long edit summary occured. Further evidence against the editor being me is its second to most recent dif [80] this is interesting; I was briefly in contact with the subject of this article due to concerns about his Wikipedia biography. (Or contact rather someone on Wikipedia claimed to be him and kept adding further problematic material. I contacted Vayner and confirmed that the person not in fact him). A fair number of Yalies know about this; furthermore, I edited the topic of the article and it is a BLP related issue; so it is also prime Wikipedia Review material. The key here is that this is an edit that I'd never make; I almost always add refs in two steps. adding <ref>www.whatever.html</ref> and then cleaning up the ref using a template. This is minimizes edit conflicts and also makes it easier to deal with the fact that the ref templates and <ref> tags are complicated (and frankly I've never gotten the hang of them). See for example: [81][82][83][84][85][86]. The only examples in my edit history that occured at all recently where I made a full ref in a single step were either a) copying a ref from a deleted version (see the recent edits to Rachel Marsden and B) an example in userspace (so I was more reckless about not carring about screwing up tags badly or edit conflicts). In this most recent example of that I messed up the tagging- [87] This should convince you that the edit Gothnic makes to Impossible is Nothing is simply not an edit I would have made despite the fact that I've been editing since January of 2006 ane have been an admin for a very long time. The editor correctly added three full refs and additional content in a single edit; I'd like to have the wikiskills to add things like that (although again, given the edit conflict concern even if I could, I wouldn't do it) but I simply don't have that skill with templates. the sockmaster must have assumed that I was as good at Wiki syntax as he or she is; in this case I am lucky enough not to be so skilled. The editor also fails to anticipate what my actual opinion would be. For example, in the Barbara Schwarz DRV (where as I said before the timestamps should clear me anyways), Gothnic called for overturning based on notability, whereas I shortly thereafter made it clear that Schwarz was a "Clearly notable person", apparently correctly anticipating that I was going to comment. However, I then made clear that I wasn't sure that this was a notable person. It should be implausible that I'd try to make a sock contradict me to hide an account and then didn't bother just using AOL to hide the IP address. The sockmaster must have incorrectly anticipated what I'd think of the article. (Incidentally, checkuser should be able to confirm that my memory that I was already editing from Puerto Rico at the time of the edit). Nothing I have done has been able to find other possible sockpuppets. It would be helpful to know if these other socks were also votestacking or not. Frankly, it ticks me off that I'm unable to mount any defense that allows me to have knowledge what these accounts are due to what appears to be an intereptation of the checkuser policy that I don't fully understand. Yet if it is decided that I was somehow guilty all the socks will then be appropriately tagged. Thus, I can only offer any evidence after I'm found guilty. I'm particularly perplexed by your ability to confirm that this was one of the accounts after I worked that out simply from the edits; if you think that these can be worked out from the evidence then why not just tell me what the others are? Or if not that, tell me how many we're talking about? The next part of this email isn't actually evidence, more of a rant but it feels good to get in writing and I'm sick and tired of handling this calmly so: First I thought this would get cleared up quickly; this is turning into what feels like the longest and most stressful ordeal on Wikipedia ever (and Wikipedia really almost never stresses me out) Once Paul and I decided some sort of framing was likely going on I was mildly impressed at whoever did this; I'm no longer impressed. Just incredibly ticked off. Wikipedia and the sister projects is my life; I've gone to meetups. I'm also an admin on the English Wikinews. I just spent $40 on recording equipment so I could do an interview with Randall Munroe, I have additional interviews lined up, and now these fuckers come along and try to smear me. I'm frankly exasperated that Jimbo and the rest of ArbCom thinks that I would make a sockpuppet like this; it is insulting to both my intelligence and insulting to my loyalty to Wikipedia and its values. I've never before in my life felt genuinely homocidal but I'm pretty close to it right now. If I find out who did this I'm not sure I will be able resist the urge to beat the ever-loving crap out of them. But the bottom line is that pretty much everyone on ArbCom knows me and has worked with me for a long time; at some point they are going to have to ask themselves if they really think I'd do something like this. The evidence above together with your knowledge of me should convince you and the rest of the ArbCom that this is ridiculous. - FloNight - (To JoshuaZ) "Sorry not to reply sooner but I was off line for the day when you sent the email. We are still actively discussing the situation. We are thinking of the various possibilities. I spoke with Alison about it yesterday in order to get a clearer idea about how the request unfolded. To the point of your email, the issue of the old edits having different interests and style has been brought up but does not entirely clear you since it could be argued that you took over a friends account to make the edits. Or you had a friend make the edits for you. What will help us is for you to tell us the physical locations where you made the edits to try to help us understand how it is possible for ips to match on several accounts on more than one occasion from more than one location. This correlation in CU results as well as the topic of the evidence is what is causing some people to think that it is likely to be socking or meatpuppeting."
JoshuaZ further emailQUOTE Also another thought about the style matter; we've already established that the Gothnic account didn't edit when I did. Now, that's reasonably explainable by a sock of mine, or by someone trying to frame me. That's not explainable by me having taken over an old account. As far as I can tell, there are two hypotheses that given the evidence should look plausible to you; straight sockpuppeting or a frameup. Only one of those explains the stylistic and other issues (again, I'm not even sure I'd be able to make Gothnic's penultimate edit if I wanted to and that's strongly borne out by my contribution list; I highlighted relevant examples already)
I think I went over physical locations earlier. I edit from Yale which has a variety of IPs. The physical locations there vary. I've edited from Slifka(the Yale Hillel), Trumbull College, Dunham Labs. Possibly occasionally other Yale buildings but those should be primary. I've also edited from two internet cafes (Au bon Pain and Claire's) (do you want the specific addresses?) and from home which should be a range listed as AT&T. Those are my primary places of editing.
I've occasionally edited from elsewhere; there should be a long range of different IPs I used when in Puerto Rico. Not sure who most of them belonged to, except that one of them should belong to a bar/cafe called the Brass Cactus, and all will correspond to physical locations in Luquillo or Fajardo. I've also edited from Boston, using wireless that should correspond to locations in Boston and Cambridge. And I've edited from NYC which should trace directly back to the Yale Club in New York.
As to the meatpuppeting; if I had asked a friend to edit wouldn't I have had the friend edit at the same time as I did? and if I could find a meatpuppet, why wouldn't I have the meatpuppet use a different IP range? As to the notion of taking over the account, if anything the older style resembles mine more than the new one. Again it is the second most recent edit that I'd be unable to make (as I already outlined evidence for). - Dmcdevit - "Just a note that Joshua's argument about the times (that he was in or traveling to Puerto Rico when one of the edits was made) can't be confirmed by the evidence. Both Gothnic and Miles Naismith stop editing around the time of Joshua's Puerto Rico visit. Joshua's last edit from a New Haven IP before a Puerto Rico IP is 1:27 Dec. 21 (UTC), but his first Puerto Rico edit isn't until 16:00 Dec 23. Miles' last edit is on Dec 22, 2:10, and Gothnic has a gap in editing between 17:02 Dec. 21 and Jan 8 (Incidentally, a couple days after Joshua returns from PR). There is plenty of time for any of the three of them to have traveled to Puerto Rico between the last edit in Connecticut and Joshua's first in PR. Which isn't to say that the timestamps prove anything, either, but just that this bit of 'evidence' is really only something we can take him on his word about."
- FloNight - (To JoshuaZ) "[explanation of evidence section above] ... Your time away in PR does not seem to help clear up the issue from the data that we have seen. I plan to review that again to make sure that we are not missing anything there (another CU looked today and said they did not think it helped clear you based on the timestamps of the edits.) Joshua, we are doubling-triple checking the data based on the information that you are providing. I wish I could give you better news but so far the link still seems to be there. We are still open to listening to your ideas about an alternative explanation for this evidence."
- FloNight - "He denies and refutes the evidence the best he can. I think we need to consider the best way to handle this keeping in mind that both JoshuaZ and Alison have the potential to be eaten alive by different segments of the Community and WR. Personally, I do not think that Joshua's offer is good enough if he is guilty of abusing the Community's trust by socking and closing Afd/DRVs. But I'm also not keen on throwing him to the wolves at WR. Possible alternative... A silent passive desysop based on trusting him to not to use admin tools for a period of time say 3 or 6 months. If he toed the line during this time then we give him the tools back. If he had a public desysop then we would likely reconsider giving the tools back at some point so this is not entirely crazy."
- Newyorkbrad - "Personally I am minded to believe that he's probably telling the truth here (because the conduct if it actually took place makes no sense) and let him continue as an administrator without any restrictions unless there are further incidents. The risk of actual harm to the project going forward is probably slight. (On the other hand, sometimes I think I'm the most credulous one here.)"
- .....Sam Blacketer - "I can go with that, given his generally trouble free history and length of service. The circumstances are such that it would be inappropriate to take decisive onwiki action if we are not certain sure in our own minds that it is justified. (I read back the archived discussions on the NSLE case this evening to confirm the difference) It may be that JoshuaZ is lying to us, but even if so he will have had a nasty fright in realising that his misconduct was noticed. There is no need to tell someone like JoshuaZ that he will be checked periodically for any similar incidents, is there?"
- .....Dmcdevit - "He isn't giving us anything to go on. His response boils down to the fact that he has no explanation for what happened, but that it's what someone would do to frame him. Putting all technical issues aside, I find it hard to believe that someone could frame him by voting in these deletion debates *before* him; it's hard to buy that they anticipated him commenting."
TO BE CONTINUED, BELOW... This post has been edited by Nathan: |
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As I feared, it's too big for one post. Here's the rest: - ..........Jayjg - "The only explanation I can think of that might go some way to explaining it is if he used a laptop and it was compromised in some way, by spyware, or as a zombie, and someone was able to use it as a proxy. I know it's farfetched..."
- Mackensen - "I've done some of my own checking and reviewed earlier data from Dominic. I find the data conclusive. The question we need to ask is not whether JoshuaZ is socking or not, but rather why he's lying to us about it. Given that he's an otherwise good user (except for abusing our core processes during contentious issues and lying to arbcom) I think a quiet resignation wouldn't be amiss. Done properly, it might not even excite all that much discussion. A public spectacle benefits no one. Re Jay, if that's the case his account is in danger and ought to be de-sysoped anyway, but I find it very unlikely..."
- FT2 - "IÂ’ve had a word with Secret/Aranda56, he;s broadly agreed he understands best to downplay it if asked, since if nothings up it could hurt innocent users. The deleted RFCU page of course can only be seen by admins, and nothing else gives it away. He says he's only spoken to Daniel Bryant, and checkusers (Alison, AaronSchulz/VoA , myself), on it."
- Dmcdevit - "In any case, we've now had four (five? I forget if Blnguyen actually looked at it.) CheckUsers all look at this and all considered the evidence conclusive. In my opinion, none of JoshuaZ responses have held up to a simple reality check, and imagining that this is the result of hacking or spoofing strains credulity. I feel that so far this case hasn't really been taken seriously, either in the interest and speed with which arbitrators are addressing it, or with the unrealistic excuses being made for what amounts to abusive sockpuppetry and administrator abuse (closing the discussions as well), and, to top it off, dishonesty to the Committee about it. I remember the NSLE case, which, incidentally, involved a single revert from a single sockpuppet; in the end the Committee felt that it might have been forgiving if he'd confessed and repented, but took the step of desysopping him mainly since he lost our trust by denying it. [...]"
JoshuaZ emailQUOTE One further thought on this topic, again if the Damocles option is unacceptable and you think that I did this. If you google for my name - [88] the first few hits are anti-Wikipedia websites with Wikipedia Review on top. So publicly announcing that the ArbCom was convinced that I had sockpuppeted would almost certainly make the sockpuppet accusations the first thing one found when one googled for me. For obvious reasons, I would very much not like that. I don't see any compelling benefit to bring this up publicly either since none of the socks altered the decision of any discussion (that should be evidence in my favor anyways since it implies that I sockpuppeted in a manner which is clearly incompetent but that's a separate issue). [re "sword of damocles" option]: I'd like the opportunity, and you still think that I did this, I'd like to be able to resign quietly. - Morven - "I do frankly think that the excuses/reasons given for JoshuaZ's behavior don't hold water. I haven't personally checked the CheckUser results - I've been frankly too busy - but they sound fairly conclusive. I think that behavior such as this is incompatible with retaining adminship. On the other hand, NSLE was desysopped for performing edits on behalf of a banned user, so this isn't QUITE comparable."
- FayssalF - "I haven't followed this issue in depth but if everyone agrees about the results of the CU then probably JoshuaZ has no better option other than voluntarily accept desysopping."
JoshuaZ emailQUOTE I'm emailing about three things: 1) to prod you and the rest of the ArbCom to please hurry up since this is incredibly stressful. 2) To offer an additional piece of evidence that these accounts are not mine. I made a series of edits arguing for the overturning on the most recent Seth Finkelstein DRV. See [89][90][91] and other remarks made by me there. Now, I think everyone will agree that based on public and private comments I've made about BLPs, there are two articles that I strongly think we should have that we don't; Brandt and Finkelstein. Now, if I was going to sockpuppet and not bother hiding my IP addresses, I would have just added a comment on the Finkelstein DRV with a sock. Now, neither Gothnic or Miles Naismith edited this DRV. I would suggest that was for a simple reason; whoever else was running this was a Yale student or other local school and on vacation then . One could posit that I didn't do so because I was in PR which would have given away my socks. But that means that I was trying to cover up the socks by not editing in PR but didn't go through the more basic step of just using AOL or some other hard to trace IP. For reasons that should be obvious, that's not likely. This data point while not convincing by itself should be taken together with the other evidence I've given the ArbCom. I think that it paints a coherent whole of a well-done frame-up attempt. 3) are there any others of these socks? While I'm grateful that you made the decision to let me know about the Naismith account, I still don't know if I'm operating with all the relevant information. I first accounted Gothnic today while participating in a DRV discussion. He has been in this project since November 10th, 2006. He only has 56 edits, but for some strange reason, he decided to participate in all the conterversal DRVs in the past year, which indicates an obvious sockpuppet of a banned or experienced user. His 10th edit was this comment to the Daniel Brandt talk page which was one of the most conterversal DRVs that arosed in the history of the project at that time. The 14th edit was this addiction to the Essjay conterversy on an extremely conterversal article, something in which new users doesn't just ston apon. And then are those DRV links I showed above, the only DRVs that he participated so far were the highly-conterversal DRVs. I want to check if it was a possible banned user, so I discussed privately with a checkuser, and the checkuser told me to list it here. So there it is. Thanks Secret account 03:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC) .....Note for clerks - this matches a case already being looked at by CU's, and was opened at CU request. Please leave open. Thanks. FT2 ( Talk | email) 03:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC) * moderator note: fixed some bbcode on both posts - Nathan |
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Oh well, the jig is up. I might as well admit that for the past 12 months, I've been secretly traveling to New Haven, CT, every few weeks, in a van loaded with computers and wireless gear. Once there, I've secretly stolen into JoshuaZ's dorm room, where (while he lay in bed, as if drugged - though I hasten to state that no actual drugs were used, since JoshuaZ has an unusual ability to bore himself into a near-comatose state at almost any time) I managed to create two remarkably similar accounts without leaving any cookie traces on the machine(s) in question, all in order to support his position in a small number of deletion review votes. Naturally, I did all of this with the full knowledge and cooperation of the New Haven Police Department and other law enforcement authorities, who as it turns out have been investigating Josh for quite some time, though they've had to develop special robots to do the necessary research and surveillance because actual human beings refuse to accept the assignment, many preferring to pull their own heads off rather than have to observe Josh's interminable blathering about people "injecting themselves into the public sphere" and "not appreciating the fact that personal privacy no longer exists."
Of course, this was all part of a Wikipedia Review Conspiracy™, financed by the Larouche Organization and ultimately masterminded by our fearless and determined leader, Gary Weiss. And I'd like to apologize to JoshuaZ for not cutting him in on the made-for-TV movie deal that's being negotiated in order to document the incident, though it looks like that's on hold for now, since the writer's strike apparently just ended. (They were only offering 15 bucks and a $10 Best Buy gift card for the rights, though, so no great loss there.)
At least the truth is out now. Everyone can rest assured that our bold, daring plan to ensure adequate support for JoshuaZ's positions in various controversial deletion reviews was a complete success, though unfortunately, the articles in question actually did remain deleted in some (if not most) cases. The important thing, of course, is that we tried. Remember, JoshuaZ cannot do these things himself; that would be wrong.
Ooh lookie, my new 30-day download cycle at eMusic just started! Woo-hoo! See y'all later, folks...
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QUOTE(everyking @ Fri 15th February 2008, 1:36am)  ...So I think maybe you guys have a somewhat exaggerated or distorted impression of him in that regard. Bah! He probably only wrote that stuff because he knows we're on to him. Then again, that may be exactly what he's expecting us to think... (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif) QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Fri 15th February 2008, 1:48am) Just so you know, I'll be submitting some expense chits, including for a heavier-duty pair of mukluks. Oh, come on! Standard-issue Wikipedia Review-brand™ mukluks are WAY warmer than those cheap mukluks you get at REI and L.L. Bean... Besides, they're designed by Pierre Cardin! This is just a complete disaster... Sometimes I wish we'd never gotten involved in this whole international conspiracy thing in the first place. |
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QUOTE(JoshuaZ) If you google for my name the first few hits are anti-Wikipedia websites with Wikipedia Review on top. So publicly announcing that the ArbCom was convinced that I had sockpuppeted would almost certainly make the sockpuppet accusations the first thing one found when one googled for me. For obvious reasons, I would very much not like that. Yes JoshuaZ, it would be terrible for you to share the same fate as those who Wikipedia deems notable. You don't like your name at the top of a Google search? Submit an OTRS complaint. There are several 15 year olds standing by to assist you. |
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QUOTE(Aloft @ Fri 15th February 2008, 8:11am) QUOTE(JoshuaZ) If you google for my name the first few hits are anti-Wikipedia websites with Wikipedia Review on top. So publicly announcing that the ArbCom was convinced that I had sockpuppeted would almost certainly make the sockpuppet accusations the first thing one found when one googled for me. For obvious reasons, I would very much not like that. Yes JoshuaZ, it would be terrible for you to share the same fate as those who Wikipedia deems notable. You don't like your name at the top of a Google search? Submit an OTRS complaint. There are several 15 year olds standing by to assist you. I likewise have no sympathy for one who undeleted Daniel Brandt's bio. Wikipedia contributors who respect others' privacy deserve the same consideration. Wikipedia contributors who don't, don't. Anyhow, from the looks of it, he did sockpuppet, and corruptly, from a position of authority, which is a lot worse than a random user (much less a banned one) who never committed or was expected to uphold the site policies doing the same. ArbCom attacks disfavored contributors routinely, often under their legal names, and JoshuaZ had a lot of time to speak up about that. (Perhaps he did, and I'm not aware of it?) This post has been edited by Proabivouac: |
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QUOTE(Proabivouac @ Fri 15th February 2008, 12:22am) QUOTE(Aloft @ Fri 15th February 2008, 8:11am) QUOTE(JoshuaZ) If you google for my name the first few hits are anti-Wikipedia websites with Wikipedia Review on top. So publicly announcing that the ArbCom was convinced that I had sockpuppeted would almost certainly make the sockpuppet accusations the first thing one found when one googled for me. For obvious reasons, I would very much not like that. Yes JoshuaZ, it would be terrible for you to share the same fate as those who Wikipedia deems notable. You don't like your name at the top of a Google search? Submit an OTRS complaint. There are several 15 year olds standing by to assist you. I likewise have no sympathy for one who undeleted Daniel Brandt's bio. Wikipedia contributors who respect others' privacy deserve the same consideration. Wikipedia contributors who don't, don't. Yes it's a bit of poetic justice. Mr. Brandt got a bio he didn't want on top of Google results, now JoshuaZ can have a taste. |
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QUOTE(Miltopia @ Fri 15th February 2008, 3:20am)
FloNight shows her inferior brainpower once more with this. She gets a whiff of possible serious on-wiki abuse and IMMEDIATELY drags Wikipedia Review into the decision-making rationale.
Exactly. It's simply unthinkable that a Wikipedia admin, pure as the driven snow, did this on his own. There simply MUST have been some outside Wikipedia Review troll influence! He must be given the benefit of the doubt after his years of constant sockpuppeting administrative abuse faithful service. |
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QUOTE(Aloft @ Fri 15th February 2008, 10:18am) QUOTE(LamontStormstar @ Fri 15th February 2008, 2:55am)
Is there a page on wikipedia with this or was it deleted?
It looks to be from the private ArbCom wiki. Which should be made public, obviously. They don't believe in contributor privacy, only in their own unaccountability, and they abuse the former as a cover for the latter. Of all contributors, the Arbitrators should enjoy the least privacy and the most accountability, not the most and the least. |
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QUOTE(cyofee @ Fri 15th February 2008, 1:40pm)
Someone needs to tell this to Cade Metz.
I hope that Metz is meeting the 1,841 GW emails, and would be busy interviewing the Arbcommers and the Bomissars on what they have they say about the cavalcade. And that is a lot of bull to wade through. The interrupting bellylaughs would slow the investigation down a bit too. I also hope some honest journalists at other publications with more impact on the business world are reading the 8000 emails. The Sword of DamnByrneocles hangs over the Kangaroo Arbcoms, the Soopersekret Lists, and the Usual Hypocrites. They are probably letting the Star Chamber complete the process of fullying displaying how crooked they are before dropping the sword. Just a guess. I would love to see the Star Chamber's proceedings on my Overblocking and compare it to the JoshuaZ hypocrisy transcripts. Even Samiharris got to opine in that court. I didn't. Everyone enjoying the Jimbo flipflopping? QUOTE(the fieryangel @ Fri 15th February 2008, 1:29pm) QUOTE(Poetlister @ Fri 15th February 2008, 2:15pm)
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. And they banned me.
Wow, FloNight herself on Wikipedia Review, reading this thread! Hi Flo! Yes, hello FloNight, liar about MM=Tomstoner=Lastexit while he/she banned and drove off good editors while letting a serially abusive, spamming, POV pusher destroy the integrity of BLPs, religiously and politically charged articles, and turn consensus and voting into a sham. This post has been edited by Piperdown: |
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QUOTE(Aloft @ Fri 15th February 2008, 2:15pm)
Don't be silly. Jimbo likes to surround himself with yes-men. Those two aren't going anywhere.
The WP Community has, on WP (and other mailing lists), and sometimes realworld: 1 - Asked the oversight abusing "Allegations of <disruption>" Jajyg to leave. Which he did, for awhile. Kind of. 2 - Declared overwhemingly that Mantanmoreland has previously abusively sockpuppeted, and was erroneously let off the hook while others were banned for complaining about, then returned to proxysock as Samiharris. 3 - Declared that Gerard is a WP:DICK, and his inability to understand simple IP range concepts is an embarrassment to WP. Not to mention he has no business editing an encyclopedia, which luckily he's come to realise himself. Just check his contributions. 4 - Declared that JzG has no business adminstrating WP, not to mention a Tourette's Syndrome Support Group 5 - That what Essjay did was wrong, no matter how good of a virtual friend (lol!) he was 6 - That the Vilification of Daniel Brandt was wrong. Keeping posting the dossiers of those 15 yr old liars, Brandt, they didn't give you your day in court. Yet Jimbo didn't have a problem with any of that. Jimbo, you have a problem alright. Your community has come to a consensus that you and your Mizoli meat should go away from WP. You have your Wikia, where you can harvest the peasant's handiwork for your profits. This post has been edited by Piperdown: |
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The really curious bit here isn't did, or didn't JoshuaZ do this--the evidence frankly is damning, and I know for a fact that DSL.net issues static IP addresses. How do I know that? I grew up in that region. I've lived in New Haven, CT, a mere few hundred yards from the very neighborhood JoshuaZ lives in, and have had multiple employers with DSL.net services. Given what sorts of things I do for a living, I know a whole heckuva lot about IP addresses and how they work.
Arbiters or Checkusers I know (even ones who think I don't like them) are free to email me directly for more information on this specific to that ISP provider if needed. How much do I know about that ISP? Hint: I know the physical layout of their main offices and network operation center space from having been there so many times for business. Probably won't be needed to contact me though, because to be frank, if they got him on ISP evidence from that provider, sayonara. That's the level of genetic forensic evidence for that. People get a DSL.net IP, they may have it for years. Basically, guys that are Checkusers, if you're reading this (looking at you, Dom--you know I'm not a bad guy especially: if you got him on DSL.net IP evidence, trust it--that is damn near bulletproof, and sometimes from them a 1:1 mapping for machines to IPs). The only possible defense now is social. That is, if the Arbcom buys what he may or may not spin this as. If he does.
The really curious thing is this: Arbcom communications are no longer secure, with evidence for the very first time. How long till they go nuts trying to find out who talked to Kohs? To the brave person: keep it up. Why? Because change and betterment only happens when someone has the stones to force it.
Second most curious: how long till people get sanctioned or Oversighted for talking about this on Wikipedia?
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Fri 15th February 2008, 3:16pm) QUOTE(Joshua Z E-Mail Excerpt) I operated under the assumption that this was Wikipedia Review related which Paul (FeloniousMonk) suggested. Presumably, "Paul" is Paul Mitchell, aka User:OddNature and "Skip" on Google Blogger. Skip posts on Google Blogger from Macy's San Francisco Operations Center. This fits in with other evidence (reported elsewhere) that FeloniousMonk and OddNature are one and the same. hey, they didn't have a problem with SlimVirgin's double-voting sock SweetBlueWater, so anything goes. Even Jimbo personally brushed that one under the rug. Anyone hear from Cyde much lately? No? Giano? No? See a trend? |
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