FT2 vs. SlimVirgin, The end is near! Options

[The Adversary]

Oh.My.God.

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

(eeeh, and thanks, Somey, for the new smileys! )

[Proabivouac]

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

No, for standing between Arbitrator FT2 and his non-administrator victim.

This is a another very significant power grab for the Committee, in which they are again making significant and wholly self-serving changes to the block policy. Formally, users targeted by ArbCom no longer have the same ability to contest their blocks - any administrator may block them at a whim by claiming that they're enforcing one of the Committee's vague "remedies", but another administrator can unblock them only with a "consensus" or risk desysoping. Less formally, they have gone ahead and decided in their kangaroo court what was so thoroughly rejected in the recent request for comment vs. Slrubenstein, which only Charles Matthews, Elonka and Jehochman supported: that the block of an Arbitrator, operating in any capacity, may not be overturned by an ordinary administrator.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac: Thu 27th November 2008, 12:16am

[Kato]

Oh.My.God.

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

(eeeh, and thanks, Somey, for the new smileys! )

Wait... wait... there are still scores of "uninvolved parties" in the line waiting to add their irrelevant, uninformed and utterly pointless opinions to the arbitration page. And I still haven't got through reading the first 50 or so.

...the block of an Arbitrator, operating in any capacity, may not be overturned by an ordinary administrator.

as I understood it, the problem was people (Slim and Slrubenstein) unblocking without informing the blocking admin, and in the face of a continued discussion of the original block.

Doing that drives 'em all crazy. Including SlimVirgin herself when it happens to her.

No. This is a just another power dispute between the giant, easily provoked egos that roam Wikipedia, and has been building since the SV arbcom cases of the last 6 months.

[EuroSceptic]

Oh.My.God.

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

Good, me think is way time!

[The Joy]

What is saddening is that SlimVirgin isn't nor shall she ever be punished for all her POV pushing and bullying on the Lockerbie bombing, Animal Rights, Chip Berlet/LaRouche, and Jewish articles. Her only crime is acting against someone more ruthless, cunning, and immoral than herself. There is no victory here as this episode only shows that Wikipedia is a deeply dysfunctional system in which revenge is equated with justice. There are bullies and then bigger bullies.

To quote Newyorkbrad's favorite judge:

The difference between vengeance and justice is that justice must apply to all.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

What is saddening is that SlimVirgin isn't nor shall she ever be punished for all her POV pushing and bullying on the Lockerbie bombing, Animal Rights, Chip Berlet/LaRouche, and Jewish articles. Her only crime is acting against someone more ruthless, cunning, and immoral than herself. There is no victory here as this episode only shows that Wikipedia is a deeply dysfunctional system in which revenge is equated with justice. There are bullies and then bigger bullies.

To quote Newyorkbrad's favorite judge:

The difference between vengeance and justice is that justice must apply to all.

Eloquently put, The Joy, and in your assessment we may see a microcosmic view of the essential problem at Wikipedia.

[everyking]

Given SlimVirgin's key role in my own desysopping (which occurred without even a process--at least she got that much), and her history of abuse towards other editors in general, I can't repress a certain glee at the decision--and yet at the same time, it's disgusting that she has been consistently let off the hook for all the genuinely awful things she's done over the years, only to be punished when she actually does something right. It's the right outcome for the wrong reason, and as someone suggested above, this will only encourage further abuses by the ArbCom itself, which is a lot more dangerous than SV has ever been.

[Milton Roe]

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

No, for standing between Arbitrator FT2 and his non-administrator victim.

Yes, but the subtext is that there's no love lost between SlimVirgin and FT2, due to the erm... "love of animals" thing where they disagree on practice. And which you can't possibly understand unless you've been doing some of that real-life sleuthing that Lar tells us is immoral. We're not supposed to know about Slim's dogs, and we're not supposed to speculate about FT2's off-wiki activities.

Except, if you don't do that, stuff like what just happened due to the Giano block, looks like random bolts of lightening. You can't even get a weather forcast. Zeus just blasts somebody on WP at random, and life goes on. I think Lar expects us to just accept that.

Well, Lar, we're not gunna. You can squinch your eyes shut about the world outside WP, and pretend "shit just happens on WP," all you like. Don't read here. It the stuff doesn't startle you too badly on WP, you don't need any explanations, anyway.

MR

[The Joy]

There are six support votes, one oppose, and one abstain.

If an oppose takes away one support (I am right on that, right?), then the desysop will not pass due to jpgordon's oppose vote. With Brad abstaining, they need six votes. So unless another arb votes support, SV won't even get desysoped temporarily.

[everyking]

There are six support votes, one oppose, and one abstain.

If an oppose takes away one support (I am right on that, right?), then the desysop will not pass due to jpgordon's oppose vote. With Brad abstaining, they need six votes. So unless another arb votes support, SV won't even get desysoped temporarily.

No, voting for separate motions is done according to simple majority. Josh's oppose vote doesn't cancel out a support.

[gomi]

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

As always, it is interesting to watch the nuance. They didn't enact that Slimey would be de-sysoped, and then have to stand at RFAR again, because they knew she would never pass again. In this case, she has barely used her admin bit for 10 months, so if she can keep her temper in check, this is a shaming more than a meaningful action. She can continue to have anyone she doesn't like banned by Jayjg and others.

[everyking]

Al Capone[/url] has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

As always, it is interesting to watch the nuance. They didn't enact that Slimey would be de-sysoped, and then have to stand at RFAR again, because they knew she would never pass again. In this case, she has barely used her admin bit for 10 months, so if she can keep her temper in check, this is a shaming more than a meaningful action. She can continue to have anyone she doesn't like banned by Jayjg and others.

Notice that she will be under a restriction with regard to admin actions for six months after regaining adminship. Arbitration restrictions are customarily interpreted in the way most contrary to the interests of the person who is under the restrictions. For example, when I was first placed under restrictions related to my expression of views in late 2005, I interpreted some of the details of my sanctions in a different way than SV, and she blocked me twice under her own interpretation, which was subsequently upheld by the ArbCom. As a result, the restrictions were far tougher than they appeared on paper; if the same thing happens in this case, SV will be all but powerless, unable to do anything but the most uncontroversial actions for fear of violating some extreme interpretation of the ruling. Of course, that may not happen to her (and for all I know, she may quit in protest before then), but I find it exceedingly amusing to contemplate.

[The Adversary]

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

No, for standing between Arbitrator FT2 and his non-administrator victim.

Yes, but the subtext is that there's no love lost between SlimVirgin and FT2, due to the erm... "love of animals" thing where they disagree on practice. And which you can't possibly understand unless you've been doing some of that real-life sleuthing that Lar tells us is immoral. We're not supposed to know about Slim's dogs, and we're not supposed to speculate about FT2's off-wiki activities.

Except, if you don't do that, stuff like what just happened due to the Giano block, looks like random bolts of lightening. You can't even get a weather forcast. Zeus just blasts somebody on WP at random, and life goes on. I think Lar expects us to just accept that.

Well, Lar, we're not gunna. You can squinch your eyes shut about the world outside WP, and pretend "shit just happens on WP," all you like. Don't read here. It the stuff doesn't startle you too badly on WP, you don't need any explanations, anyway.

MR

Well; I came to WR years ago for one reason only: to be able to rave and rant about Slimmy and Jayjg ....without being becoming blocked on the The Other Wiki (as so many of my wiki-friends were).

Having said this, I pray that if I was ever reborn as a dog (God forbid ...I´m a cat-lover...I hate, haaaate dogs...ever since our neighbour´s German Shepard decided it wanted a part of my thigh for lunch....when I was about eight years old)..., anyway, if I´m reborn as a dog, then God; please God, let it be as Slimmys poodle, and not as FT2 Labrador Retriever

I´ll much prefer Slimmys rather tacky taste when it comes to dogs haute couture than FT2´s ..ehhh.."tolerance" of certain "habits" (or "personal choices". Call it whatever you want.)


In fact, I have a strong suspicion that Slimmy´s poodles ...(if she´s still got them) live a very privileged life.

As for any dog FT2 might own;


PS: I seriously hate dogs. I did once watched 101 Dalmatians ...jumping up and down, screaming: Go! Cruella, Goooooo!!.
Didn´t work.
F--k Disney.

[Moulton]

To quote Newyorkbrad's favorite judge:

The difference between vengeance and justice is that justice must apply to all.

Eloquently put, The Joy, and in your assessment we may see a microcosmic view of the essential problem at Wikipedia.

Even so, a culture of Retributive Justice, even if meted out equally to vile miscreants high and low, is still a culture that hallows the meting out of suffering, so as to maintain equal suffering for all.

Contrast Retributive Justice to the more enlightened concept of Restorative Justice that supplants authorized and sanctioned suffering (deliberate punishment under the color of law) with therapeutic healing under the ethic of Hippocrates, Jesus, Thomas Becket, Stephen Langton, Eugen Bleuler, Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, Mohandas Gandhi, Martin Luther King, John Rawls, Rene Girard, James Gilligan, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the Dalai Lama.

I suppose Mohandas K. Gandhi said it best: "An eye for an eye, and pretty soon the whole world is blind."

Fear of Retributive Justice might have worked during the heyday of the paradigm of the Rule of Law, but it only rises to the middle levels of the Kohlberg-Gilligan Model of Best Ethical Practices.

Fear-driven regulatory practices are not very effective in Cyberspace, partly because our disembodied avatars are immune to physical pain, leaving the enforcers to rely on emotional and psychological pain (castigation, ostracism, shunning, humiliation, defamation, stigmatization, and other ego-shattering practices).

But even psychological and emotional punishments are contra-indicated remedies for two obvious reasons. The first reason is that recovery from (and immunity to) psychological and emotional attacks on one's ego and self-worth is a practice long taught by the world's great religions. In the 21st Century, it is not all that uncommon to learn to shrug off emotional and psychological attacks, even when meted out under the color of authorized and deliberate sanctions by tribal elders. Moreover, it's ridiculously easy for anyone to return the favor, as illustrated by the emergence of uber-trolls who relentlessly bedevil the self-deluded guardians of the collective myth.

When liminal social drama reprises itself enough times to become popcorn-munching comic opera, it's time for thinking people to wake up to the insights that Dostoevsky wove into his novels a century ago. Retributive Justice, even when meted out even-handedly (dare I say learned-handedly?) in a cyberspace culture that evolves into a Psychodrama Theatre of the Absurd, does little more than reify the dysfunctionality that Fyodor Dostoevsky brilliantly parodied in Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov.

If you haven't got time to read Dostoevsky, you can find the Cliff's Notes Summary here.

The sum of all human knowledge includes 20th Century gains in the concept of Restorative Justice, also known as therapeutic healing. My favorite method of therapeutic healing is producing a well-crafted comic opera, complete with atrocious song parodies.

Failing that, I'll settle for an easily overlooked post on W-R that merely muses about the idea.

[Lar]

Al Capone has just been sentenced to 6 month in the bin.. for tax evasion

No, for standing between Arbitrator FT2 and his non-administrator victim.

Yes, but the subtext is that there's no love lost between SlimVirgin and FT2, due to the erm... "love of animals" thing where they disagree on practice. And which you can't possibly understand unless you've been doing some of that real-life sleuthing that Lar tells us is immoral. We're not supposed to know about Slim's dogs, and we're not supposed to speculate about FT2's off-wiki activities.

Except, if you don't do that, stuff like what just happened due to the Giano block, looks like random bolts of lightening. You can't even get a weather forcast. Zeus just blasts somebody on WP at random, and life goes on. I think Lar expects us to just accept that.

Well, Lar, we're not gunna. You can squinch your eyes shut about the world outside WP, and pretend "shit just happens on WP," all you like. Don't read here. It the stuff doesn't startle you too badly on WP, you don't need any explanations, anyway.

MR

MR: Such a pat explanation. Moral certitude is charming in the young, where we expect it. But it doesn't wear nearly as well on someone of your age, MR.

All I will say in reply is that the ends do not justify the means. Not for something quite as small potatoes as Wikipedia. I'll leep reading, because there is wheat among the chaff here, after all. But I'll keep occasionally pointing out where folk have went farthest astray.

Other folk: Gloating over SlimVirgin's fate strikes me as rather tacky.

[dogbiscuit]

Other folk: Gloating over SlimVirgin's fate strikes me as rather tacky.

I thought there was some interesting honesty - and the commentary is very much the ends have not justified the means. All fairly mild compared with the glee over the destruction of PoetGuy and the real world consequences of that.

Alternatively, it can be seen as amusing: if there is one specific person that there has been a near consensus for the removal of admin status on this site, it has been SlimVirgin - yet we miscreants are still not happy.

I think the lesson is that if you went back a year or so ago, there was a conviction that Jimbo, with the aid of his chums like SlimVirgin, had a stranglehold on the project, so if they were emasculated in some way, the project would move forward. In that year, more and more people have come to realise that the problems are not of the making of individual characters, but the dysfunctional nature of the governance.

For example, bogeyman SlimVirgin long since made way for bogeyman FT2, who brought in a different set of concerns over site governance. Slim controlled through unilateral editing of the policy pages, FT2 has sought to control through unilateral statements purporting to be the will of ArbCom which have overridden the wishes of the increasingly wayward "community". Both would characterise themselves as working for the good of the project, and no doubt are in a state of perpetual bemusement as to how their good works could be so misinterpreted.

However, I think many of us here have recognised for some time that although there is some satisfaction in seeing some of the dictators toppled from power, there is a long queue of inappropriate people awaiting their turn at the top of the castle and simply expending energy pushing them off is not the way to improve things (though occasionally there may be small lessons to be learnt and small examples to be presented).

One would hope that somewhere in the WMF, one of these prize scalps would so surprise them that they felt compelled to act and rethink the governance of the site to deal with the new challenges of the adolescent Wikipedia. There is little evidence that the WMF of today have any awareness or interest in their projects as they deal with other important things.

[CharlotteWebb]

FT2 is obviously flailing away at trying to establish ArbCom as a legitimate, effective governance body in Wikipedia.

Unless you are referring to a certain medieval apparatus I assume you mean "failing".

[Lar]

FT2 is obviously flailing away at trying to establish ArbCom as a legitimate, effective governance body in Wikipedia.

Unless you are referring to a certain medieval apparatus I assume you mean "failing".

Eh?

"Flailing away" is a perfectly acceptable usage, meaning to agitatedly but ineffectively try to affect some change.

Oh, you knew that already? Oops. Sorry for spoiling your punchline.

[dogbiscuit]

FT2 is obviously flailing away at trying to establish ArbCom as a legitimate, effective governance body in Wikipedia.

Unless you are referring to a certain medieval apparatus I assume you mean "failing".

No, he means flailing.

The derivation is about right though - it means to thrash about (as if holding a flail, more likely a threshing implement than weapon). It usually has the implication of more noise than effectiveness.

Anyway, word of the week is dissembling, don't get ahead of yourself!

[Cedric]

I think the only thing missing from this dramarama is for Jimbo to come crashing into this, in his usual rogue elephant style, and reverse all sanctions against Stroynaya Deva. Unfortunately, it does not look as this will happen; there is some reason to believe she is no longer in favor in the court of the God-King. Pity. She was so good at delivering "teh dramahz".

All drama aside, Dogbiscuit is right: the real problem with Wikipedia is its ill-founded systems and policies, rather than the personalities of predilections of certain abusive power players. These dysfunctional systems and policies are actually what makes possible, and magnifies, the abuses. Getting rid of the bad actors in this case is the functional equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.