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> SB Johnny and Wikiversity
Ottava
post Mon 19th September 2011, 3:08pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 1:39am) *

Fedosin is apparently a Russian physicist, with some original ideas. I'd assisted in preventing his pages on WV from being deleted by the Wikipediots. I.e., those who attempt to apply Wikipedia standards to Wikiversity.


This is Abd speak for - "He had crazy fringe ideas about science like me, and I gave him a platform to try and legitimize his crazy ideas".



QUOTE
So, for him, Wikiversity was desirable as a way to act out his Wikipedia fantasies. To stand for Good Content.


Yet I was on Wikiversity and an admin on Wikiversity long before I was ever banned. Over a year before. Funny.


QUOTE
Wikiversity handles content disputes in a very different and highly inclusive manner.


By that, Abd means that he allows for all the troll edits like this to stay, because this is clearly what Wikiversity is about: "My mother's name was Maryam who was born at Kraming, Khaplu Baltistan Pk. She was the second eldest of her eleven real sisters and one real brother. Her father's name was Isabaqdul who had three elder brothers namely Muhammad Jan, the eldest, Abdullah and Ali. When my mother was born, her eldest uncle Mr. Muhammad Jan decided to marry her to his second eldest son Hasan and the marriage was arranged accordingly in their mid teens. The marriage broke after birth of my sister who was a little bit disabled by birth. Mr. Hasan married another lady when his father passed away. My mother, a holy Qura'n learned lady was married to Mr. Muhammad Yar r/o Mikserpi, Khaplu, Baltistan after tallaaq and iddat... Innaa lillai wa innaa ilaihi! May Allah rest her soul in eternal peace.!"

The above was taken from this page which was previously in the mainspace. It doesn't belong anywhere on Wikiversity.


QUOTE

That is because even "poor content" can still have educational purpose and usage, and we don't kick a student out of our free university for writing a Bad Paper.


Odd, because Abd indefs people without waring or notice. That doesn't seem like an attempt to redeem them.


The rest is equally insane, and there is only so much insanity one can stomach.
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Abd
post Mon 19th September 2011, 3:34pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:05am) *
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 9:23am) *
You know, I'd prefer Wikiversity as a place to create a learning resource if it had less drama. That is not generated solely by Ottava.
Maybe I need to step back in there and restore some order?
Come on in, Greg, the water's fine. Be nice, now. I'd hate to have to blocka-you-ass. But, in fact, I know that you know how to cooperate, so I'd be surprised if I needed to even think of this. It's just that this is Wikipedia Review and I wanted to write "blocka you ass."

Gotta keep up standards, you know.

Wikiversity has been about as drama-free as could be imagined, for a month, until I was nominated and a certain Drama Queen came out. It's a bit distracting, site maintenance perhaps suffers a bit, but if you want to build educational resources, it should be fine. As you know, Greg, those who gravitate toward central process can be preferentially nutso, to use the technical term.

The Assembly is designed to defang them. It'll defang me too, by the way. The Assembly is designed to generate clear, concise, complete and fully neutral reports, using Wikiversity inclusiveness but centuries of experience as to how to do this. That's work, and wikis do not spontaneously do that. Even ArbComm never figured this out. The idea is, though, that it only takes a couple of people doing the work to effectively handle it for everyone. That's the Delegable Proxy trick.
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Abd
post Mon 19th September 2011, 3:56pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:08am) *
Odd, because Abd indefs people without waring or notice. That doesn't seem like an attempt to redeem them.
Warning. Not waring or warring. Indeed, I do. Come to Wikiversity and with your first edit as a registered account, clearly vandalize a page, or insert a link to "Cheap Rolex Watches." If I notice it first, which is likely, you'll likely see an indef block. If I find that this is an SUL with good edits elsewhere, I might do something different. This is now, however, a WMF-wide practice, and if an account repeats this behavior cross-wiki, they get *locked* with no warning or notice, not even that there is a discussion taking place.

Warnings on Talk pages suppress later notice of the editor, so they actually complicate Recent Changes work, besides creating piles of pages that are essentially useless. If anything, we should tighten up a little bit on Welcoming. Standard practice now is to welcome simply for a test edit to the Sandbox, for example. Maybe. I'm continuing to do that, but the value is not clear. We should do an objective study. We should do objective studies about lots of things; for too long, the wikis operate on pure knee-jerk "thinking." That works, but it can also be quite misleading.

I've intervened in a couple of those global lock and block discussions, where I saw that there might be some redeeming value there. (Global block is roughly an equivalent for IP addresses, of a local block.)

I leave user Talk page access open, and the block message explains not only the reason why they were blocked, but also how to request unblock. This is the practical reality: the users whom I am indef blocking without warning and notice have, so far, never requested unblock. Why should they? This was a throwaway account. We are only talking about registered users, not IP.

I don't long-block IP addresses, unless I see persistent vandalism or inappropriate usage of Wikiversity combined with complete lack of response to suggestions (that's what it starts with) and warnings. I do warn instead of blocking whenever any account shows the slightest hopeful sign. Most IP vandalism, I don't even bother blocking, unless it's more than one problem edit.

Ottava's been repeating these claims, over and over, but he doesn't point to any specific examples. What he's doing is saying, "See! He's breaking the rules." Rules that he made up. What I'm doing is consistent with Wikiversity policy, and is clearly accepted by the community. Where are the reversed custodial actions? Where are the complaints on my Talk page? Ottava got his ass blocked by making piles of complaints without real evidence. He's completely bankrupt, but he's still pretending to be in charge, that His Opinion is the Empire's Opinion. Thus anything else is rebellion and corruption.
QUOTE
The rest is equally insane, and there is only so much insanity one can stomach.
That feeling in your stomach, Ottava, you really should see a professional about it. I've worked with some seriously crazy people, and one of the common traits: they think everyone else is crazy.

If I could stand in a room and speak to the Wikiversity community, this whole thing would have been over a long time ago. What I'm doing is only difficult with text. In person, the bandwidth is enormous. You'd get it, and quickly, unless you were practically brain-dead or drunk. In about one minute, two on a bad day, I can communicate what mountains of text can't.

Ottava was active as a custodian for a couple of years. He has under 4000 edits. I have over 7000 edits, rapidly growing, because real custodian work creates lots and lots of edits. Wikiversity is growing, it is becoming truly successful, and it's starting to self-organize. You'll all be able to see it within a year, I'm sure. I'm working not just to improve Wikiversity, but to make it spectacularly successful. Ultimately, the active site will be, by comparison, Wikiversity, Wikipedia will still be active, but will be what might be called a filtered mirror of Wikiversity. I.e., let's call it the Encyclopedic Best of Wikiversity. Single article per topic.

Wikiversity might have hundreds on a topic. From all points of view, with educational resources for people who actually want more than an encyclopedia, they want comprehensive knowledge. Wikiversity is to Wikipedia, ultimately, as a university, with its library and all its student work, is to an encyclopedia. Which one is ultimately most important. Does the tail wag the dog?

So, folks, if you gave up on Wikipedia, if you were blocked there, you are invited, by me, as a Wikiversity user who has this vision, to come and see what you can do on Wikiversity. It's not Wikipedia, for sure. Greg isn't blocked there, but he's not been a problem there, either. I'm banned on Wikipedia. Is that a problem? Sure, it's a problem. People bring it up. "He shouldn't be a custodian because he's banned on Wikipedia." They also say, those same people, "So and so should be blocked here because he's blocked on Wikipedia, which proves that he is a Bad Person."

And the Wikiversity community, consistently, rejects that argument.

By the way, we had a user show up, a Wikipedian, clearly a returning account, highly skilled, he'd shown up on Wikipedia and within a few days started an AN/I discussion that led to the banning of an editor without warning, with no prior block record and very extensive contributions. This new editor came to Wikiversity and asked that the user, who had started up at Wikiversity, be "stopped." He also immediately voted against my permanent custodianship. Bad news, eh? Disruption? Well, turns out the user actually reads stuff, and is able to see beyond his immediate opinions. Because my approach to Marshallsumter resulted in Marshall being totally cooperative, blanking some of his own pages to answer immediate copyright concerns, then working on the to insure compliance with copyright standards -- which can be a bit unclear -- this user realized that the process he'd started on Wikipedia was so great, after all, that the Wikiversity way was far more collaborative and far less disruptive. So he changed his position on my candidacy, he revised the research project he'd started, with a little fuss, to something far more neutral (and probably quite userful), and he accepted a suggestion that he work as a custodian at Wikiversity, and as soon as we can find an independent 'crat, he'll be a probationary custodian.

This would be completely impossible at Wikipedia. What, you have a past that you are not disclosing. No. Go Away, and you are lucky if we don't block you.

Ottava, of course, would have blocked this user, but, hey, he'd have warned him, perhaps, but if the user were not properly deferential, he'd have immediately blocked, he did this sometimes. He'd simply have driven him away, one way or another. And this was obviously a user who intended to build resources on Wikiversity, for what he considers original research. Ottava's belief is that the content is crap. I'll say this about it. It's actually interesting, he's doing something unusual, that's all. He's doing linguistic analysis. People are expecting something else, so they can't understand why he's putting up all these brief exact quotes. They are examples of usage. That's what a linguist would study! Ottava started a thread on Marshallsumter here.

Ottava is pretending that the treatment of blatant vandals and blatant linkspammers is somehow a problem. It isn't. There is almost complete consensus on what I've been doing. There is some variation in practice, that's all. A steward just blocked an account for a day. Draicone upped that to a week. I'd have made it indef, I think. All of us would allow Talk page access and appeal. None of us are arguing with each other. There is no conflict between Wikiversity and the steward community.

Some conflict might appear at some time, but we will work it out. That's because we now have an operating core that understands the wikis, the needs of the WMF, as well as our own unique mission as Wikiversity.

This post has been edited by Abd: Mon 19th September 2011, 4:16pm
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Ottava
post Mon 19th September 2011, 4:39pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:34am) *


The Assembly is designed to defang them. It'll defang me too, by the way.


Except that you are in charge. And your arbitrary will and capricious nature rules it. Funny how that works. You sought me desysopped out of process for less than 1% of the behavior you've been exhibiting lately, and made it clear that you manipulate people and process in a desperate attempt to take over.

But why? You have no education background. You aren't an academic. You have no legitimate reason to be on Wikiversity. You should have been banned from there from day one.


QUOTE
Ottava, of course, would have blocked this user


I did extremely little blocking, and when I did block they were for short periods. There is a huge and obvious difference between our blocking.

And anyone can see that most of Abd's blocks have been in his ramping up activity until his administrator nomination.

This post has been edited by Ottava: Mon 19th September 2011, 4:46pm
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SB_Johnny
post Mon 19th September 2011, 4:44pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:34am) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:05am) *
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 9:23am) *
You know, I'd prefer Wikiversity as a place to create a learning resource if it had less drama. That is not generated solely by Ottava.
Maybe I need to step back in there and restore some order?
Come on in, Greg, the water's fine.

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SB_Johnny
post Mon 19th September 2011, 4:50pm
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 19th September 2011, 12:39pm) *

You sought me desysopped out of process for less than 1% of the behavior you've been exhibiting lately, and made it clear that you manipulate people and process in a desperate attempt to take over.

There's a 100% chance that you are grammatically incorrect about that, and about a 95% chance that you're otherwise incorrect (based on your past record of being correct), but I'm betting on the 5% when it comes to the theory of mind part.
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Abd
post Mon 19th September 2011, 4:56pm
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I'd skipped to the end, but when I looked back, I saw that there are some matters of interest here, than can, for those interested, explain better what Wikiversity is about and what I'm up to.
QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:08am) *
QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 1:39am) *
Fedosin is apparently a Russian physicist, with some original ideas. I'd assisted in preventing his pages on WV from being deleted by the Wikipediots. I.e., those who attempt to apply Wikipedia standards to Wikiversity.
This is Abd speak for - "He had crazy fringe ideas about science like me, and I gave him a platform to try and legitimize his crazy ideas".
No. We are an educational institution, and we allow users, including experts like Fedosin -- and he is an expert -- to develop resources in relative peace and security. It takes expertise to review the work of an expert. It will ultimately happen, I'm sure, and if a Fedosin page is actually not supportable in the presence of expert opinion, it will become a subpage, ideally, with criticism explaining and exploring errors.

The existence of a page on Wikiversity does not "legitimize" any ideas. The existence of a page on Wikipedia doesn't even do that, though as Wikipedia actually starts to develop true peer review, which Wikiversity will help it to do, it might.

There are differences of opinion among experts. There is no one "expert position," very often. When someone comes to Wikiversity with truly out-there ideas, we have ways to accommodate them, and if they aren't interested in cooperation, they may end up blocked. It's unusual. Most people prefer to cooperate, give them a way to do it, they will. Try to exclude them, they may break the windows and climb in anyway. Better to channel their work. What I saw happening with Fedosin is that non-physicists were judging the work of a physicist, and determining that this was nonsense. Do understand that some physicists will call the work of other physicists "nonsense." They might even work at the same university.

It is about time to look again at Fedosin's work. I prefer this to be done by experts, who will advise the community. But we are short of those with the time to devote. Any experts interested? Hint: Ottava is completely unqualified. I've edited scientific work that has been published in a major journal. Ottava, and Wikipedia, and others who fancy themselves as "informed," have rejected this work as "fringe," but the peer reviewers at major journals don't agree. The contrary position has almost completely disappeared from mainstream journalsIt just goes to show.
QUOTE
Wikiversity handles content disputes in a very different and highly inclusive manner.
By that, Abd means that he allows for all the troll edits like this to stay, because this is clearly what Wikiversity is about: "My mother's name was Maryam who was born at Kraming, Khaplu Baltistan Pk. She was the second eldest of her eleven real sisters and one real brother. Her father's name was Isabaqdul who had three elder brothers namely Muhammad Jan, the eldest, Abdullah and Ali. When my mother was born, her eldest uncle Mr. Muhammad Jan decided to marry her to his second eldest son Hasan and the marriage was arranged accordingly in their mid teens. The marriage broke after birth of my sister who was a little bit disabled by birth. Mr. Hasan married another lady when his father passed away. My mother, a holy Qura'n learned lady was married to Mr. Muhammad Yar r/o Mikserpi, Khaplu, Baltistan after tallaaq and iddat... Innaa lillai wa innaa ilaihi! May Allah rest her soul in eternal peace.!"

The above was taken from this page which was previously in the mainspace. It doesn't belong anywhere on Wikiversity.[quote]Excellent example, I'm glad that Ottava chose it. It demonstrates that Ottava is essentially crazy, and probably should be banned from Wikiversity central structure. Fine if he writes about Shelley or whatever he actually knows about.

"Troll." This is apparently a Pakistani user. Definitely not a troll. That's his mother he wrote about. The fellow is entirely new to wikis or anything like it. I found an article on a very small town in Pakistan, in Wikiversity mainspace. So I moved it to his user space, and advised him that he was free to improve it there. He's not ready, as far as I see, to work on mainspace pages, and it might take him quite some time to get there. What he's learning on wikiversity is how to edit wikitext, how to write and express himself, and he's doing that, mostly, in his user space. He's monitored, and if he creates inappropriate pages in mainspace, they are almost immediately moved to his user space. He recently created a couple of pages in mainspace, and they were obviously user space type pages. I've asked him repeatedly to not create pages in mainspace, but my observation with highly unskilled users is that they will do it anyway. It takes repetition. Any educator knows that, and you don't improve the skills of these people by blaming and shaming and excluding them. Wikiversity is for educational resources, but part of this is fostering the actual process of education.

Ottava was also opposed to my work with a very young user, about 7 years old at first contact, according to the biography he wrote. But he writes fantasy. Originally, some of this was put into User:Abd/Playspace, but when he had a stable account -- that took some doing for a 7-year old! -- pages were moved into his user space, and he has almost entirely settled to only working on pages there. So he's learning writing, wikitext, and cooperation with a community, which is a big thing. This same user was considered a cross-wiki vandal, because what an even relatively clueful 7-year old writes is likely to be seen that way. The result of my welcome and support of him at Wikiversity has been the disappearance of such cross-wiki disruption, it appears. In other words, the openness of Wikiversity is preventing disruption elsewhere. This kid had discovered, already, when I found him, that when blocked, all he had to do was reboot his modem, and the block magically went away. Sitting on an elementary school IP. Great! His home IP, a major provider, floating IP, etc. Young. Has many years ahead of him where he's still young. Not intimidated. Now, you can engage and support someone like that, or you can try to exclude them. Exclude them, you are training them in how to avoid your exclusion. And that is exactly what they will do.

You can play a game of whack-a-mole, or you can start to wake up and deal with the real world, the way it is. "Bans" are largely a fantasy.
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SB_Johnny
post Mon 19th September 2011, 5:39pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 12:56pm) *

I'd skipped to the end

The irony! It burns!
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Ottava
post Mon 19th September 2011, 6:44pm
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Abd, why is it that when you were encouraging Marshallsumter to post up copyvio that you also encouraged as class to commit it here en masse? Dozens of images related to that class had to be purged from Commons et al, and were obviously being used on Wikiversity if you were really checking edits. They were obviously inappropriately licensed to be used like that.

Does this have something to do with you getting a support from the recent user 1sfoerster? That you encourage users to act that way, ignore the problems, and then get their support? Instead of having the fortitude to telling them that they cannot do such a thing and warning them, thus possibly not getting them to be a supporter?

It is clear that your approach is self-serving and does not seek to better anything at the WMF.


Edit: Here is just a small example of the extent of the problem.

This post has been edited by Ottava: Mon 19th September 2011, 6:48pm
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post Mon 19th September 2011, 7:18pm
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Sun 18th September 2011, 2:31pm) *

You're just trying real hard to be the shepherd.

Zoloft, I really got a kick out of this and was really hoping that somebody would come up with a good riff about the tyranny of evil men, but I think maybe only you and I got the reference, so here it is for the kids:

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The Joy
post Mon 19th September 2011, 9:45pm
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:05am) *

QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 9:23am) *

You know, I'd prefer Wikiversity as a place to create a learning resource if it had less drama. That is not generated solely by Ottava.

Maybe I need to step back in there and restore some order?


Was there any order to begin with? blink.gif
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Kelly Martin
post Mon 19th September 2011, 11:29pm
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Given a choice between Abd-crazy and Ottava-crazy, I'll take Abd-crazy. Abd's far more pleasant company, even if he does talk too much.
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Zoloft
post Tue 20th September 2011, 12:16am
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I would like for someone to post on my talk page how to create a learning resource. I've been poking around but don't see an 'Idiot's Guide: Creating a Learning Resource on Wikiversity.'

When I log on and start stacking my blocks I just see a bunch of people biting each other's necks.

It's discouraging, so I wander on over and vote down whatever looks asinine.

Then people mutter about me being 'inactive.'

Pish tosh I say. (My mother used to mutter that. She was from Southampton. I am from Texas, but still use it.)
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Ottava
post Tue 20th September 2011, 12:53am
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 8:16pm) *

I would like for someone to post on my talk page how to create a learning resource. I've been poking around but don't see an 'Idiot's Guide: Creating a Learning Resource on Wikiversity.'



Course listings.

If you want to make something new, see if there is a school for it. If there is, look at what is offered and see what gaps there are.

Some people just build learning projects based on their own course lesson plans. Others upload their class lectures.
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Abd
post Tue 20th September 2011, 2:28am
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 8:16pm) *

I would like for someone to post on my talk page how to create a learning resource. I've been poking around but don't see an 'Idiot's Guide: Creating a Learning Resource on Wikiversity.'

When I log on and start stacking my blocks I just see a bunch of people biting each other's necks.
That's not been the norm at all. Hasn't been happening for months. My permanent vote pulled the bugs out of the woodwork. Ottava came back to vote. Salmon of Doubt who hadn't edited since 2008 showed up, that was astonishing.
QUOTE

It's discouraging, so I wander on over and vote down whatever looks asinine.
Yeah.
QUOTE
Then people mutter about me being 'inactive.'
It may not be what it looks like. I needed, for my own information and maybe for that of others, to analyze the voting by activity, because it seemed to me there was a drastic difference. People really active with Wikiversity, who had been seeing my work, were far more in favor of what I was doing than those who were merely voting based on old grudges and fixed opinions. That's all. I classified you as active, not checking, just based on my impression. Which was mistaken. Ottava made a big flap about that here, but I corrected it on-wiki. Being inactive, if one is, is not a crime.

Welcome back, Zoloft. I didn't realize that this was you.

As to creating resources, you can create resources that are essays or collections of essays. You can do original research. There are some standards, but it's a pretty safe place if you are cooperative. Don't freak out if someone objects to something, we will work it out. Most of the time you can just do what you want. If you do something possibly problematic, it will come to my attention, probably. And my goal is to see that you can do whatever is legitimate about what you want to do. Liberally construed.

But I'll also protect the wiki against "cross-wiki disruption," which occasionally comes up....

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Mon 19th September 2011, 7:29pm) *
Given a choice between Abd-crazy and Ottava-crazy, I'll take Abd-crazy. Abd's far more pleasant company, even if he does talk too much.
In person, you'd just say, "You're talking to much," and I'd say, "Right." And shut up and listen.

Thanks.


QUOTE(The Joy @ Mon 19th September 2011, 5:45pm) *
QUOTE(thekohser @ Mon 19th September 2011, 11:05am) *
Maybe I need to step back in there and restore some order?
Was there any order to begin with? blink.gif
No. The order is being created. Some people don't like that.

As to the drama, the month of my probationary custodianship was pretty uneventful. yeah, there was some Stuff, but it was all quickly and efficiently handled.
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Ottava
post Tue 20th September 2011, 2:35am
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QUOTE(Abd @ Mon 19th September 2011, 10:28pm) *

As to the drama, the month of my probationary custodianship was pretty uneventful. yeah, there was some Stuff, but it was all quickly and efficiently handled.


Oh yeah, "quickly and efficiently handled"..

Destroyed Wikiversity standards, imported major problems, and abused power.
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The Joy
post Tue 20th September 2011, 4:21am
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Say, Johnny, why don't you release JWSchmidt from his dungeon? Ottava, JWS, and Abd free to roam Wikiversity! Think of it! confused.gif

Edit: Oh, and emesee. Don't forget him!
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Zoloft
post Tue 20th September 2011, 5:22am
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May we all find solace in our dreams.
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Mon 19th September 2011, 5:53pm) *
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 19th September 2011, 8:16pm) *
I would like for someone to post on my talk page how to create a learning resource. I've been poking around but don't see an 'Idiot's Guide: Creating a Learning Resource on Wikiversity.'
Course listings.
If you want to make something new, see if there is a school for it. If there is, look at what is offered and see what gaps there are.
Some people just build learning projects based on their own course lesson plans. Others upload their class lectures.

Well, I appreciate your trying to help me.

Edit: And Abd, thank you as well. see you wrote your post while I was writing mine.

There is this: How to Write an Educational Resource which is a bit limp but does shine a dim light on the subject. Is there anything better?

Perhaps my first project should be to gather advice on creating a learning resource and write an 'Idiot's Guide.'

Anyway, I did just create this collection based on the few references and sources I have found on my topic.

It's a toe in the water, anyway. Now to expand it, and then stick an outline up next, I think.

My apologies for straying off topic.

->Back to the topic

SB Johnny wants Wikiversity to succeed, but all the shenanigans I believe have dissipated that hope.

Why don't we all just leave each other alone, put down the jousting lances, and... create?

This post has been edited by Zoloft: Tue 20th September 2011, 5:28am
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SB_Johnny
post Tue 20th September 2011, 9:14am
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It wasn't me who made honky-tonk angels
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 20th September 2011, 12:21am) *

Say, Johnny, why don't you release JWSchmidt from his dungeon? Ottava, JWS, and Abd free to roam Wikiversity! Think of it! confused.gif

Edit: Oh, and emesee. Don't forget him!

We'll need some pedos too, to round it all out. huh.gif
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thekohser
post Tue 20th September 2011, 11:09am
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Tue 20th September 2011, 1:22am) *


Did you notice that the prolific editor who created most of that page decided to up and quit, expending his last edits on an Ottava mentorship issue? I wonder if it could be said that Ottava drove him off the project?
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