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> Moral bankruptcy?, The Butler in the library with the canlestick
GlassBeadGame
post Tue 18th October 2011, 7:06pm
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QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 1:02pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 6:25pm) *


Nice to know that I had influence on somebody on this site. I still believe that any meaningful critique of WP needs to focus on external standards and perspectives. To look at WPs destructive impact on democratic institution such as the press, education, museums and libraries. To confront it's insensitivity to the needs of significant communities outside its own narrow demographics such as Muslims and parents. To expose the risk it presents to children. To oppose the erosion of fundamentally fair notions like people should be paid for work and charities should help people rather than merely provide yet another forum people to say whatever they want. To warn against the corrosive effect of extreme libertarianism and Free Kulture. None of this can be discussed on Wikipedia. Of late none of it can be discussed to any profit on WR.




Could you please elaborate on some of your points, for example, how WP makes a destructive impact on democratic institution such as the press, education, museums and libraries?
My question not necessarily means I disagree with you. I simply would like to understand what you mean.
From my own perspective I could compare Wikipedia to Communism: Both ideas were great, but implementations proved that nothing good came out of neither.

More like Randism. An obviously bad idea that delivers about what you'd expect.
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communicat
post Tue 18th October 2011, 7:30pm
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QUOTE

GBG:
"... confronting the narrowness of [wikipedians'] demographics politics and culture.


Watch it pal; any moment now someone here's gonna label you a godamn commie. It has been known to happen.

QUOTE
MBZ1:
I could compare Wikipedia to Communism: Both ideas were great, but implementations proved that nothing good came out of neither.[sic]


I don't know; how about the defeat of Hitler on the principle and decisive front of WW2 in Europe? (Sadly, however, no comparable victory relative to WP.)

This post has been edited by communicat: Tue 18th October 2011, 7:32pm
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mbz1
post Tue 18th October 2011, 8:05pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 6:25pm) *

QUOTE(nableezy @ Mon 17th October 2011, 7:53pm) *



I think this place has a lot to offer. You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it. Actually doing that aint the easiest thing for reasons that can be discussed elsewhere, but when the site focuses on actual criticism of WP it can be immensely useful and, occasionally, insightful.


Nice to know that I had influence on somebody on this site.

BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy, if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

This post has been edited by mbz1: Tue 18th October 2011, 8:12pm
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nableezy
post Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm
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QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableeze, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableeze, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableeze, if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableeze is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.
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mbz1
post Tue 18th October 2011, 8:13pm
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QUOTE(nableezy @ Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy , if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.

Sorry, I fixed it.

BTW what does your user name mean? Is it something as hateful as you avatar?
Why have you chosen Che Guevara for your avatar anyway? Do you like Che Guevara? Have you by any chance read this article written by a very, very left journalist about Che Guevara, or you know Che Guevara only from "neutral" Wikipedia entry on him?

This post has been edited by mbz1: Tue 18th October 2011, 8:24pm
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nableezy
post Tue 18th October 2011, 8:17pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 1:25pm) *
Nice to know that I had influence on somebody on this site. I still believe that any meaningful critique of WP needs to focus on external standards and perspectives. To look at WPs destructive impact on democratic institution such as the press, education, museums and libraries. To confront it's insensitivity to the needs of significant communities outside its own narrow demographics such as Muslims and parents. To expose the risk it presents to children. To oppose the erosion of fundamentally fair notions like people should be paid for work and charities should help people rather than merely provide yet another forum people to say whatever they want. To warn against the corrosive effect of extreme libertarianism and Free Kulture. None of this can be discussed on Wikipedia. Of late none of it can be discussed to any profit on WR.

Rather than change or truncate the scope of the critique to fit the new WR it makes more sense to take the heart of the critique elsewhere. It won't be limited to just WP. It it won't be brought by "glassbeadgame." It doesn't need to take a bunch of Wikipedians along.

So mostly my interest here is with the damage Wikipedians have done to this and similar sites including confronting the narrowness of their demographics politics and culture. Also to oppose any move to bring in any Wikipedian moderators to facilitate the theft of the site and encourage shutting down the site rather than becoming a Wikipedian noticeboard.

I dont think these things cant be discussed here, it is just that they arent. Like it or not, this site is going to continue (if it continues at all) to be popular among people who see it as an extension of Wikipedia without the usual rules like "Everybody has to love everybody". A reorganization of the forum structure would go a long way, in my opinion of course, in helping to re-focus discussions on things that actually matter. A sub-forum dedicated to child safety issues, one dedicated to Wikipedia's impact on actual institutions of learning and its effect on students' abilities. And so on. Aggressively moderating those sub-forums to remove what has become the standard fare here would ensure that people stay on topic.
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communicat
post Tue 18th October 2011, 9:00pm
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QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 10:13pm) *

QUOTE(nableezy @ Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy , if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.

Sorry, I fixed it.

BTW what does your user name mean? Is it something as hateful as you avatar?
Why have you chosen Che Guevara for your avatar anyway? Do you like Che Guevara? Have you by any chance read this article written by a very, very left journalist about Che Guevara, or you know Che Guevara only from "neutral" Wikipedia entry on him?


Noise, noise, noise. Who, apart from nabliesi gives a damn about the spelling of his name? As for Johann Hari -- author of the Guevara article -- being "a very, very left journalist", are you MBZi out of your mind? Hari is as rabidly conservative as they come; nor is The Independent newspaper much better. As a "journalist", Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari That's the kinda guy you're trying to pass off as a reliable source. fool.gif frustrated.gif

This post has been edited by communicat: Tue 18th October 2011, 9:06pm
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nableezy
post Tue 18th October 2011, 9:10pm
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QUOTE(communicat @ Tue 18th October 2011, 4:00pm) *
Who, apart from nabliesi gives a damn about the spelling of his name?

Yes comuniKKKat, the spelling of ones name is of no importance. But tell me, communicunt, what, besides proving you are the lone surviving member of The Left, is important to you? And also, commitedcancer, do you understand that there is a reason that Mr Kohs is concerned that you are "killing WR"?
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mbz1
post Tue 18th October 2011, 9:28pm
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QUOTE(communicat @ Tue 18th October 2011, 9:00pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 10:13pm) *

QUOTE(nableezy @ Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy , if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.

Sorry, I fixed it.

BTW what does your user name mean? Is it something as hateful as you avatar?
Why have you chosen Che Guevara for your avatar anyway? Do you like Che Guevara? Have you by any chance read this article written by a very, very left journalist about Che Guevara, or you know Che Guevara only from "neutral" Wikipedia entry on him?


Noise, noise, noise. Who, apart from nabliesi gives a damn about the spelling of his name? As for Johann Hari -- author of the Guevara article -- being "a very, very left journalist", are you MBZi [sic] smile.gif out of your mind? Hari is as rabidly conservative as they come; nor is The Independent newspaper much better. As a "journalist", Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari That's the kinda guy you're trying to pass off as a reliable source. fool.gif frustrated.gif


Of course I know that " Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari" . So what, you, fool.gif, smile.gif ?Do you really believe that left , liberal journalists do not write plagiarisms and do not make socks on wikipedia?
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communicat
post Tue 18th October 2011, 10:06pm
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QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 11:28pm) *

QUOTE(communicat @ Tue 18th October 2011, 9:00pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 10:13pm) *

QUOTE(nableezy @ Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy , if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.

Sorry, I fixed it.

BTW what does your user name mean? Is it something as hateful as you avatar?
Why have you chosen Che Guevara for your avatar anyway? Do you like Che Guevara? Have you by any chance read this article written by a very, very left journalist about Che Guevara, or you know Che Guevara only from "neutral" Wikipedia entry on him?


Noise, noise, noise. Who, apart from nabliesi gives a damn about the spelling of his name? As for Johann Hari -- author of the Guevara article -- being "a very, very left journalist", are you MBZi [sic] smile.gif out of your mind? Hari is as rabidly conservative as they come; nor is The Independent newspaper much better. As a "journalist", Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari That's the kinda guy you're trying to pass off as a reliable source. fool.gif frustrated.gif


Of course I know that " Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari" . So what, you, fool.gif, smile.gif ?Do you really believe that left , liberal journalists do not write plagiarisms and do not make socks on wikipedia?


I don't have time for childish nonsense. Go back to WP. They thrive on that kind of thing.
Same applies to nabliesi. And to kohs, for that matter.

This post has been edited by communicat: Tue 18th October 2011, 10:07pm
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GlassBeadGame
post Tue 18th October 2011, 10:14pm
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QUOTE(communicat @ Tue 18th October 2011, 4:06pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 11:28pm) *

QUOTE(communicat @ Tue 18th October 2011, 9:00pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 10:13pm) *

QUOTE(nableezy @ Tue 18th October 2011, 8:10pm) *

QUOTE(mbz1 @ Tue 18th October 2011, 3:05pm) *
BTW do not believe nableezy, when he says "You, particularly, have convinced me that not only is WP bad, but that the only responsible thing to do with it is to stop editing it". No, nableezy, who makes for example this kind of edits hrmph.gif will never stop editing wikipedia. What the difference does it make for nableezy , if the article about Israeli Female Basketball Premier League has references or does not have references? What the difference does it make for anybody at all? nableezy is one of the best examples of wikipidiots. Such users will never leave wikipedia.

Is there a reason you are unable to properly spell my username? I cant say that anything else you wrote actually matters to me, but this is, if I recall correctly, the second post where you misspell my username multiple times.

Sorry, I fixed it.

BTW what does your user name mean? Is it something as hateful as you avatar?
Why have you chosen Che Guevara for your avatar anyway? Do you like Che Guevara? Have you by any chance read this article written by a very, very left journalist about Che Guevara, or you know Che Guevara only from "neutral" Wikipedia entry on him?


Noise, noise, noise. Who, apart from nabliesi gives a damn about the spelling of his name? As for Johann Hari -- author of the Guevara article -- being "a very, very left journalist", are you MBZi [sic] smile.gif out of your mind? Hari is as rabidly conservative as they come; nor is The Independent newspaper much better. As a "journalist", Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari That's the kinda guy you're trying to pass off as a reliable source. fool.gif frustrated.gif


Of course I know that " Hari has been forced to apologise publicly for plagiarism and for using WP to make malicious attacks under a pseudonym. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Hari" . So what, you, fool.gif, smile.gif ?Do you really believe that left , liberal journalists do not write plagiarisms and do not make socks on wikipedia?


I don't have time for childish nonsense. Go back to WP. They thrive on that kind of thing.
Same applies to nabliesi. And to kohs, for that matter.



Just chill for Christ's sake.
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SB_Johnny
post Tue 18th October 2011, 10:43pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 6:14pm) *

Just chill for Christ's sake.

I resemble that remark.

Seriously, this has to be one of the most stoopit flame volleys yet.
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nableezy
post Tue 18th October 2011, 10:48pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 5:14pm) *
Just chill for Christ's sake.

Might the posts related to WR specifically be moved to the WR review forum? That would have the benefit of allowing me to continue the discussion that has a purpose while ignoring everything else.
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communicat
post Wed 19th October 2011, 1:13pm
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QUOTE(nableezy @ Wed 19th October 2011, 12:48am) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Tue 18th October 2011, 5:14pm) *
Just chill for Christ's sake.

Might the posts related to WR specifically be moved to the WR review forum? That would have the benefit of allowing me to continue the discussion that has a purpose while ignoring everything else.


Perhaps a good time to remind the infowhores exactly what the intended topic here (Moral bankruptcy) was stated to be:
QUOTE

(Communicat Fri 14th October 2011, 6:46pm)
Old fashioned pacifists (and even WP:NPOV rules, surprisingly) believe there are always two or more sides to a story, and all significant sides merit equal attention if anything resembling "truth" is ever to be arrived at. Paradoxical thing is, when someone tries to do so (both at WP and at WR), he/she is promptly labelled "commie" ... I suggest the latter is because people like to cover up their own moral bankruptcy.


This post has been edited by communicat: Wed 19th October 2011, 1:17pm
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Rhindle
post Thu 20th October 2011, 3:02am
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I think a good example could be in how do you handle the flat earthers? It's probably as fringe a view as you can get but is there a fair way to put in their perspective without any snark from those with mainstream views? On the other side, those who are flat earthers should recognize that their view is not very widely accepted so should understand their view is not going to be given equal consideration with the accepted science. However, many with a fringe view are vehement in their views to the point of narcissism and try too hard to convince everyone they're right rather than work with others to incorporate the view they hold.
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The Joy
post Thu 20th October 2011, 3:22am
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QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 19th October 2011, 11:02pm) *

I think a good example could be in how do you handle the flat earthers? It's probably as fringe a view as you can get but is there a fair way to put in their perspective without any snark from those with mainstream views? On the other side, those who are flat earthers should recognize that their view is not very widely accepted so should understand their view is not going to be given equal consideration with the accepted science. However, many with a fringe view are vehement in their views to the point of narcissism and try too hard to convince everyone they're right rather than work with others to incorporate the view they hold.


You would write what the Flat Earthers believe and then explain what scientists have been saying since the Ancient Greeks that the world is round and there is evidence to prove it. It's a busted myth and you use secondary scientific publications to prove it. If the Flat Earth People do not like that, tell them this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a website for willy-nilly, pseudo-science hoo-ha. And if they keep whining, tell them to shove off. I don't know why MONGO and his friends guarding the 9/11 article don't do that. Tell what the conspiracies are and then throw the science and literature at them. In an ideal world, the two sides would have a nice educational dialogue with the pseudo-people accepting that there are flaws in their theory and they go home and rethink their lives. Unfortunately, that does not happen often on Web 2.0.
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EricBarbour
post Thu 20th October 2011, 3:45am
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sleep.gif yecch.gif
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communicat
post Thu 20th October 2011, 11:42am
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Thu 20th October 2011, 5:22am) *

QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 19th October 2011, 11:02pm) *

I think a good example could be in how do you handle the flat earthers? It's probably as fringe a view as you can get but is there a fair way to put in their perspective without any snark from those with mainstream views? On the other side, those who are flat earthers should recognize that their view is not very widely accepted so should understand their view is not going to be given equal consideration with the accepted science. However, many with a fringe view are vehement in their views to the point of narcissism and try too hard to convince everyone they're right rather than work with others to incorporate the view they hold.


You would write what the Flat Earthers believe and then explain what scientists have been saying since the Ancient Greeks that the world is round and there is evidence to prove it. It's a busted myth and you use secondary scientific publications to prove it. If the Flat Earth People do not like that, tell them this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a website for willy-nilly, pseudo-science hoo-ha. And if they keep whining, tell them to shove off. I don't know why MONGO and his friends guarding the 9/11 article don't do that. Tell what the conspiracies are and then throw the science and literature at them. In an ideal world, the two sides would have a nice educational dialogue with the pseudo-people accepting that there are flaws in their theory and they go home and rethink their lives. Unfortunately, that does not happen often on Web 2.0.


Agreed. I doubt, however, if the Flat Earthers were ever called "commies". But even if they were labelled such, their personal political beliefs would be of no relevance or importance if their edits were done neutrally and in good faith -- (of no importance, that is, unless you happen to be a modern-day E J Hoover or Joe McCarthy).

For the sake of argument, let's go for the moment with a rather less hypothetical and extreme example than flat earthing. Let's say there exists an English WP article that happens to be the 10th most-visited article on WP, concerning one of the most calamitous events in human history (and no, I don't mean 9/11 either; that was nothing by comparison) . Let's say the article relies on about 400 references conveying the dominant Western historical narrative, to the near or total exclusion of reliable sources in English that convey dissenting Western views and/or non-Western views that carry weight ouside of the dominant, conservative Western mainstream. Let's say those perspectives are censored/suppressed/deleted as "fringe" etc, and the editor or editors attempting to achieve NPOV parity of sources is/are dismissed as wingnuts or a muckraking commies. Unfortunately that does happen often on Web 2.0 in topic areas of modern history (and indeed in this present topic discussion itself, as the record shows).

There's no WP or WR rule against reasoned dialogue and debate being replaced arbitrarily by excessive patriotic zeal. Maybe there should be, if only to avoid allegations of moral bankruptcy, such as this.

This post has been edited by communicat: Thu 20th October 2011, 4:38pm
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communicat
post Thu 20th October 2011, 11:46am
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Thu 20th October 2011, 5:45am) *

sleep.gif yecch.gif


Don't wake him up. He'll only start barking. Let sleeping dogs lie.
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