Giano community ban? Options

[Ottava]

Giano is up for a community ban and I am split on the matter. After all, he is an interesting fellow.

Pro: Content contributor with many featured credits.
Con: Has turned to drama instead of content since 2008 and refuses to update and bring to standard his old pages without lots of drama, attacks, and the rest.

Pro: Tells the civility police how it is.
Con: Its part of one of the few circles left that could be called a "cabal" and his nastiness is protected by many entrenched people, including a few Arbs that he helped get adminship and their AC status.

What do others thing? He does seem to be begging for a ban as of late.


By the way, it probably doesn't help when he edit wars the ban proposal thread out three times.

This post has been edited by Ottava:

[Moulton]

If he really does crave drama over the dull work of writing an authentic encyclopedia, then banning him will be a win-win for everyone. Wikipedians love the drama of these community ban exercises, and Giano loves to be in the middle of drama of any sort.

Who cares about writing an encyclopedia, anyway? If that's what people want to do, there are better sites where the only work underway is the dull work of crafting an authentic encyclopedia.

[A Horse With No Name]

As much as I like Giano personally, it is impossible not to notice the level of inconsistency that goes into dealing with him. The level of protection he gets is abnormal, and -- to be perfectly cruel -- the actual quality of his contributions does not match his reputation as a content creator.

But, then again, this is typical of the hypocrisy and double standards that permeate Wikipedia. As long as we have arbitrators who ignore policy to protect their friends (shout out to Nurse Anne), and as long as there are AN/I loudmouths who rally behind some buffoons while rush to crucify people of identical buffoonery (shout out to Kww and BB), then the place is just a bad comedy show. And for those of us denied access to the stage, we can at least watch supposedly intelligent people make jackasses of themselves. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/popcorn.gif)

[Theanima]

I don't think Giano should be banned. On a related note, they want to ban Malleus as well. In fairness, Malleus contributes a lot of valuable content. On the other hand, he makes frequent and unprovoked personal attacks (yes, personal attacks) that come off as incredibly childish, and makes the atmosphere unpleasant for anyone who dares to disagree with him. I might say, oh just ignore it it's Malleus being Malleus. But when he comes to your talk page to start lecturing on about vague "incompetence" and "abuse" without any diffs whatsoever, it begins to push the limits even articles writers have.

[Subtle Bee]

If he really does crave drama over the dull work of writing an authentic encyclopedia, then banning him will be a win-win for everyone. Wikipedians love the drama of these community ban exercises, and Giano loves to be in the middle of drama of any sort.

Who cares about writing an encyclopedia, anyway? If that's what people want to do, there are better sites where the only work underway is the dull work of crafting an authentic encyclopedia.

I used to think that I understood what motivated Giano, but I no longer believe that. But since many of us concur that WP isn't an authentic encyclopedia anyway, I don't see what's gained in banning him. It's fascinating that Jimbo's been predicting his imminent demise since '07, to little effect, so if nothing else he has value as an icon of resistance. Besides, as an outsider, I enjoy the drama, in the same way I get a guilty thrill watching "Intervention" or "Cheaters". If WP committed itself to the "dull work" you suggest, we'd all have much less to talk about.

Also, I've been off for a week and so haven't met our new friend Milowent, who nonetheless deserves compliments for coining "insane hall monitors" to describe those anal manners monkeys forever fighting their Civility Wars. It's an apt metaphor, and it shortens up to "Jimbalo(ette)s".

[Ceoil]

Giano is more valuable to the project than his contibutions or openions. He represents someting that is being lost to, well Randy from Boise, who is interested in the internet only and having a voice for its own sake - on whatever website, doesn't matter. All the problems on wiki are caused by thoes people - so caught up in the game and process that they cannot ''think'', they just follow and leave a mire of shit behind.

[later edit by the confused]
Eh, this was meant as a direct reply to horsey, but I havn't figured out how to do that yet.

So there, horsey, you've been told!

This post has been edited by Ceoil:

[A Horse With No Name]

Eh, this was meant as a direct reply to horsey, but I havn't figured out how to do that yet.

So there, horsey, you've been told!

Thanks. Now make yourself useful and fetch me a Guinness and a copy of the Daily Racing Form. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

[Theanima]

Giano is more valuable to the project than his contibutions or openions. He represents someting that is being lost to, well Randy from Boise, who is interested in the internet only and having a voice for its own sake - on whatever website, doesn't matter. All the problems on wiki are caused by thoes people - so caught up in the game and process that they cannot ''think'', they just follow and leave a mire of shit behind.

[later edit by the confused]
Eh, this was meant as a direct reply to horsey, but I havn't figured out how to do that yet.

So there, horsey, you've been told!

I think a Wikipedia without Giano (or Malleus, or most users actually) just wouldn't be Wikipedia. They're so ingrained into it, it wouldn't be right seeing them banned.

And, thing is, neither will ever be banned for the sake of a few sharp words. Ever. In fact the only reason either would be banned is if their account got hacked and went on some sort of spree. But even then, I imagine once they regained it they'd be unblocked and all would be forgiven. There is a point in a Wikipedia career when you become a "wiki-veteran" and you can do as you please, pretty much. Giano and Malleus reached that stage long ago.

Giano and Malleus would be missed so much more than the likes of TreasuryTag and MickMacNee.

[Subtle Bee]

And, thing is, neither will ever be banned for the sake of a few sharp words. Ever. In fact the only reason either would be banned is if their account got hacked and went on some sort of spree. But even then, I imagine once they regained it they'd be unblocked and all would be forgiven. There is a point in a Wikipedia career when you become a "wiki-veteran" and you can do as you please, pretty much. Giano and Malleus reached that stage long ago.

Now that I'm done boggling at the oxymoronic phrase "Wikipedia career", I'll point out that plenty of veterans still get the axe. I think in Giano's case he has such a long history of beating back blocks and vendettas set against him by jealous tyrants he's become a bit of living mythology, a trickster god who shuns the conservative establishment to side with puny mortals.

But is the essence of Prometheus the stealing of fire, to shine light in dark places? Or is it the eternal willingness to choke your tormenters with your own liver, as the penance for venting your spleen?

[HRIP7]

Giano is more valuable to the project than his contibutions or openions. He represents someting that is being lost to, well Randy from Boise, who is interested in the internet only and having a voice for its own sake - on whatever website, doesn't matter. All the problems on wiki are caused by thoes people - so caught up in the game and process that they cannot ''think'', they just follow and leave a mire of shit behind.

Mm. Quite well said.

[Ceoil]

Mr Horse says: Thanks. Now make yourself useful and fetch me a Guinness and a copy of the Daily Racing Form.

A confused and painced nuub says: Christ - am I you bitch now? Damn it, my mother had told me I could do better than the likes of you. Seems my mother lied.

One or two shots of Powers with your skin mag?

This post has been edited by Ceoil:

[Ceoil]

This might be a stupid question, but I'm just going to ask straight out. These non content rent a view ''people'', why, what are they doing with their lives?


This post has been edited by Ceoil:

[Eva Destruction]

This might be a stupid question, but I'm just going to ask straight out. These non content rent a view ''people'', why, what are they doing with their lives?

So, you don't think spending eight hours a day telling other people not to use the word "poop" is a constructive hobby?

Way-back-when, I once did some work for a rate-my-photo site; it never failed to amaze me that they had a constant stream of volunteer moderators who would do nothing except patrol the uploaded photos for pictures of celebrities. Never underestimate the appeal of "if the pond is small enough, even a minnow can be the biggest fish"; remember that to most of these people, this is the first time in their life they've ever had any authority. To harp on one of my well-trodden themes, the ex-military/cops and retirees who are also disproportionately active as Wikipedia admins tend not to be as "respect my authority!" as the teenagers.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think a Wikipedia without Giano (or Malleus, or most users actually) just wouldn't be Wikipedia. They're so ingrained into it, it wouldn't be right seeing them banned.

For the 100 to 200 people who call Wikipedia home, I would agree. For the millions of people who rely on Wikipedia solely to look up World Cup trivia or to see which movie won the Oscar, they don't know Giano or Malley exist, nor do they care about this "block" and "ban" crap.

Giano and Malleus would be missed so much more than the likes of TreasuryTag and MickMacNee.

There's always a new wave of colorful characters who come in. And some of them are actually old favorites in new roles. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

[Zoloft]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

[Eva Destruction]

There's always a new wave of colorful characters who come in. And some of them are actually old favorites in new roles. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

Treasury Tag, at least, has been reheated more times than a United Airlines meal; remember Rambutan? Circuit Judge? How about Porcupine?

[Theanima]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

[Zoloft]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Pages created by GiacomoReturned: 9
Pages created by Giano: 167
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, yeah... pretty much stopped since he flounced and returned the last time.

Get thee to a buttery... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

[Ottava]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

None of those are important pages or really worth while. Buckingham Palace was the last time he tried to actually write something encyclopedic.

[Eva Destruction]

None of those are important pages or really worth while. Buckingham Palace was the last time he tried to actually write something encyclopedic.

Define "something encyclopedic". Montacute House, Geddes Hyslop, Palazzo Torlonia, Via della Scrofa 117, Rome – all post-return Giano articles. Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it's not important.

[Theanima]

None of those are important pages or really worth while. Buckingham Palace was the last time he tried to actually write something encyclopedic.

Define "something encyclopedic". Montacute House, Geddes Hyslop, Palazzo Torlonia, Via della Scrofa 117, Rome – all post-return Giano articles. Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it's not important.

I'm actually quite shocked Ottava of all people would make such an absurd comment.

[GlassBeadGame]

None of those are important pages or really worth while. Buckingham Palace was the last time he tried to actually write something encyclopedic.

Define "something encyclopedic". Montacute House, Geddes Hyslop, Palazzo Torlonia, Via della Scrofa 117, Rome – all post-return Giano articles. Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it's not important.

I'm actually quite shocked Ottava of all people would make such an absurd comment.

I'm surprised that anyone would assert that writing any article for Wikipedia is anything but a waste of time. But down here in the Annex people seem a little slow on the uptake.

[dogbiscuit]

Actually, from what I read, Giano is someone who does try to add a bit of life to articles.

From that point of view, he is a lot better than many writers, but the constraints of house policy mean that the articles tend towards fact lists rather than educational tales.

[Peter Damian]

Actually, from what I read, Giano is someone who does try to add a bit of life to articles.

From that point of view, he is a lot better than many writers, but the constraints of house policy mean that the articles tend towards fact lists rather than educational tales.

Yes. The essence of good and entertaining and interesting writing is the skillful selection of sources to summarise the main points of the subject. This is expressly prohibited in Wikipedia, hence the appearance of a long laundry list. All the laundry is there, but which are the important bits of laundry?

I did not say that.

Sorry, Ottava said that, and it was he I meant - I have edited my post accordingly.

[Moulton]

The World Book Encyclopedia has a much more narrative editorial style, which makes it a valuable educational resource for students. Wikipedia may well be competitive in terms of accuracy, but it lacks a consistent editorial style and many of the articles are poorly written in terms of narrative exposition of a subject.

[BelovedFox]

Giano still does some article writing, but it's clearly not the same amount that he did years ago. He let himself get sucked into the void, and became what he despised; a drama-monger (not to say that others aren't responsible for as much of the tripe as Giano). The reason so many rally around him is because they for whatever reason see him as some shining figure for the "common man", which is erroneous and rather sad.

As for what constitutes "worth" in writing, I'm certainly not going to pick. I think there's something to be said for elevating subjects that haven proven the test of time in terms of still being written about and being relevant (I'm not entirely sure "latest teen heartthrob" really passes that acid test) but to denigrate another subject area because you don't find it interesting is arrogance or ignorance. Virtually every subject has worth.

[Giano]

None of those are important pages or really worth while. Buckingham Palace was the last time he tried to actually write something encyclopedic.

Define "something encyclopedic". Montacute House, Geddes Hyslop, Palazzo Torlonia, Via della Scrofa 117, Rome – all post-return Giano articles. Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't mean it's not important.

I'm actually quite shocked Ottava of all people would make such an absurd comment.

None of those are really important or even taught in schools as anything worth while.

Encyclopedic topics are Philosophy, History, Literature, Science, etc. You know, the things they use to teach in school before schools became PC love fests where everyone is a winner.

The Elegy page was only one of the most important poems in English literature, and while Giano was busy filling in boring pages about crappy houses no one cares about, it was left with nothing. He is up there with anime people, video game weirdos, and those who wank off to how fast they could put up a page on a topic that just hit the 6 PM news.

Seriously? What exactly do you know about what is or isn't taught in schools? What makes some poem or some philosopher more worth while than a historical building? The Elegy page is boring and crappy to me too, but doesn't make it any less worth while.

I'm afraid that Ottava appears to want the world to be a different place. Picking one article that I know somehting about, Montacute House is exactly the sort of thing I would expect to see in a detailed online encyclopedia. Anything owned by the National Trust is likely to be interesting in some way.

However, reading it, it reminds me of why Wikipedia, with its current restrictions, cannot really succeed. All the restrictions on sourcing and POV suck the life out of any writing. If you visit an NT house, you will often find (aside from the grannies getting enthused about anyone dragging some cute kid around) a curator with a real passion about the place, who will reflect the life and the quirks of the household. A well written article on a place should have humour and passion about its subject, bringing it to life.

As an editor, a Wikipedian is discouraged from putting such things in, and to lift it from other works would be obvious plagiarism, so it is in the nature of the process that an article must be turgid. A good example is Winston_Churchill. If there is an article in Wikipedia that should entrance a reader, it is that, but no, it is a painfully organised list of events where my eyes glaze over.

I think that is a big disappointment in Wikipedia. From the naive writing of 5 years ago, it has not managed to evolve a house style that encourages entertaining writing. I'm sure this was identified long ago, but there are so many other problems... yada yada yada.

I could not agree with you more.

Giacomo

[Zoloft]

I will atone for my earlier off-topic phrases by forcibly bringing this thread back to the topic.

It is my considered opinion that Giano:

• Should not be banned from Wikipedia as his sins do not merit expulsion, and it is healthy for a community to endure contrary voices
• Should however moderate his attacks on persons
• Is welcome to a beer if I ever meet up with him
• Reminds me at times of a Mexican masked wrestler

Damn. I think I veered off again.

[A Horse With No Name]

It is my considered opinion that Giano:

[*]Reminds me at times of a Mexican masked wrestler

Giano!!!

(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/419712722_da40a7549122.JPG)

Actually, this explains a lot! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

[Doc glasgow]

There are three solutions to the "Giano problem"

1. Ban Giano
2. Stop baiting Giano
3. Giano learns to behave in a reasonably non-destructive manner.

None of these will ever happen, because any of them would result in a significant reduction in drama - and no one of any significance in wikiland wants that. Similarly, none of these options will ever be ruled out - since ruling any of them out would mean a significant loss in the potential for drama. So people will promoted them all variously.

The only way Giano gets banned is if someone can work out a way to do it that (in the long term) results in more drama than keeping him.

This is wikiland. It always was and always will be.

As long as Giano remains amusing, and provocative, why the hell would anyone want to ban him? (As opposed to using the threat of a ban to troll him - which is perfectly reasonable in wikiland.)


*Methinks I'm channelling Kelly now*

This post has been edited by Doc glasgow:

[Kelly Martin]

There is no "Giano problem". There is a "Wikipedia problem". The solution to the "Wikipedia problem" is to get rid of all the people who think there is a "Giano problem".

[gomi]

[Modnotre: I spent about 20 minutes of my precious time moving to the Annex Tar Pit 84 comments (leaving 31) that, upon cursory examination, did not appear to bear on the nominal topic of this thread, WP editor Giano. There may be some question about the efficacy of moving off-topic posts already in the "Annex", but it was requested, and what a pile of crap this thread was. In the future, please keep discussions of English poetry, inter-personal screeching fits, random insults and the like in the Tar Pit. -- gomi]

[LessHorrid vanU]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Oi!

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Pages created by GiacomoReturned: 9
Pages created by Giano: 167
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, yeah... pretty much stopped since he flounced and returned the last time.

Get thee to a buttery... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Could it be that someone else has created a stub and Giacomo is expanding it, or that he is overhauling a poor article? Perhaps there are not so many worthy subjects for which to create new articles, so he polishes up those that are there. As Ottava noted, his most well known recent effort was Buckingham Palace - which I rather suspect was installed prior to Giacomo registering his first account. Statistics? Pah!


I rather believe that I have become the most recent "Giano champion" on WP, or at least the one prepared to back my judgement with admin tools. Simple enough reason, that while I am sympathetic toward most of Giacomo's opinions I mainly find in him a person of integrity - such that it allows him to take contrary views over similar matters and yet remain honest. Not only does he get angry when he perceives injustice, but he gets angry at the lack of concern expressed by people he feels should be endeavouring to mitigate such injustice, and gets incandescent when the "culprits" are permitted to rationalise their deeds yet the complainers are quickly sanctioned.

Of course, Wikipedia does not do "justice" - but that is no reason why Giacomo shouldn't attempt to shine a light upon situations where such a quality might be prudent.

[EricBarbour]

There is no "Giano problem". There is a "Wikipedia problem". The solution to the "Wikipedia problem" is to get rid of all the people who think there is a "Giano problem".

I'll drink to that.

[Zoloft]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Oi!

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Pages created by GiacomoReturned: 9
Pages created by Giano: 167
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, yeah... pretty much stopped since he flounced and returned the last time.

Get thee to a buttery... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Could it be that someone else has created a stub and Giacomo is expanding it, or that he is overhauling a poor article? Perhaps there are not so many worthy subjects for which to create new articles, so he polishes up those that are there. As Ottava noted, his most well known recent effort was Buckingham Palace - which I rather suspect was installed prior to Giacomo registering his first account. Statistics? Pah!


I rather believe that I have become the most recent "Giano champion" on WP, or at least the one prepared to back my judgement with admin tools. Simple enough reason, that while I am sympathetic toward most of Giacomo's opinions I mainly find in him a person of integrity - such that it allows him to take contrary views over similar matters and yet remain honest. Not only does he get angry when he perceives injustice, but he gets angry at the lack of concern expressed by people he feels should be endeavouring to mitigate such injustice, and gets incandescent when the "culprits" are permitted to rationalise their deeds yet the complainers are quickly sanctioned.

Of course, Wikipedia does not do "justice" - but that is no reason why Giacomo shouldn't attempt to shine a light upon situations where such a quality might be prudent.

I'm always willing to be convinced - I'll dust off my mostly inactive Wikipedia account and have a closer look at Giano's contribs.

[Moulton]

I mainly find in him a person of integrity - such that it allows him to take contrary views over similar matters and yet remain honest. Not only does he get angry when he perceives injustice, but he gets angry at the lack of concern expressed by people he feels should be endeavouring to mitigate such injustice, and gets incandescent when the "culprits" are permitted to rationalise their deeds yet the complainers are quickly sanctioned.

Of course, Wikipedia does not do "justice" - but that is no reason why Giacomo shouldn't attempt to shine a light upon situations where such a quality might be prudent.

In a culture suffused with injustice, it is a rare person who can process that injustice with just the right mix of anger and good humor to gently nudge the system in a Bokononic direction.

[BelovedFox]

I mainly find in him a person of integrity - such that it allows him to take contrary views over similar matters and yet remain honest. Not only does he get angry when he perceives injustice, but he gets angry at the lack of concern expressed by people he feels should be endeavouring to mitigate such injustice, and gets incandescent when the "culprits" are permitted to rationalise their deeds yet the complainers are quickly sanctioned.

Of course, Wikipedia does not do "justice" - but that is no reason why Giacomo shouldn't attempt to shine a light upon situations where such a quality might be prudent.

In a culture suffused with injustice, it is a rare person who can process that injustice with just the right mix of anger and good humor to gently nudge the system in a Bokononic direction.

Good point. To merge this with Doc's point: Giano propagates drama, rather than solutions, with his over-the-top reactions.

Of course, as much as I'd like to see him gone, it's not too hard to ignore the guy. Pity the fool who blunders in front of the Giano train though (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Giano]

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Oi!

Wikipedia veteran editors get shoved in the pit all the time. It's just that it's taken so long for Giano.

Now that he's pretty much stopped cranking out content, he's removed his best protection, so he might be gone soon.

Stopped? I beg to differ.

Pages created by GiacomoReturned: 9
Pages created by Giano: 167
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, yeah... pretty much stopped since he flounced and returned the last time.

Get thee to a buttery... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

Could it be that someone else has created a stub and Giacomo is expanding it, or that he is overhauling a poor article? Perhaps there are not so many worthy subjects for which to create new articles, so he polishes up those that are there. As Ottava noted, his most well known recent effort was Buckingham Palace - which I rather suspect was installed prior to Giacomo registering his first account. Statistics? Pah!


I rather believe that I have become the most recent "Giano champion" on WP, or at least the one prepared to back my judgement with admin tools. Simple enough reason, that while I am sympathetic toward most of Giacomo's opinions I mainly find in him a person of integrity - such that it allows him to take contrary views over similar matters and yet remain honest. Not only does he get angry when he perceives injustice, but he gets angry at the lack of concern expressed by people he feels should be endeavouring to mitigate such injustice, and gets incandescent when the "culprits" are permitted to rationalise their deeds yet the complainers are quickly sanctioned.

Of course, Wikipedia does not do "justice" - but that is no reason why Giacomo shouldn't attempt to shine a light upon situations where such a quality might be prudent.

I'm always willing to be convinced - I'll dust off my mostly inactive Wikipedia account and have a closer look at Giano's contribs.

Just to clarify something. I still content edit quite a bit. However, for reasons best known to myself, I edit in user space and then do one big paste into mainspace and have the user page often with 100s of edits deleted - there is no need for people to see me editing three times trying to write one word. I could never legitimately be an edit-counter-boaster. Also, in the areas I write, there are fewer and fewer pages which have not been already started, so I tend to expand existing pages. I also now spend hours drawing plans - which by necessity have to be drawn offline, but I like doing because I now find text increasingly hard - my content work at Wikipedia has changed in character considerably and will continue to do so, but that does not mean I can't have and express opinions. Until the day they ban me, I will express my opinions.

Giacomo

[Ottava]

Just to clarify something. I still content edit quite a bit. However, for reasons best known to myself, I edit in user space and then do one big paste into mainspace and have the user page often with 100s of edits deleted - there is no need for people to see me editing three times trying to write one word. I could never legitimately be an edit-counter-boaster. Also, in the areas I write, there are fewer and fewer pages which have not been already started, so I tend to expand existing pages. I also now spend hours drawing plans - which by necessity have to be drawn offline, but I like doing because I now find text increasingly hard - my content work at Wikipedia has changed in character considerably and will continue to do so, but that does not mean I can't have and express opinions. Until the day they ban me, I will express my opinions.

Giacomo

Giano, you know that I rarely do my edits on Wiki, so I don't bother with edits over what is actually put up. My concern was that you are focusing on tiny pages and abandoning them, which gives you more time to war all over AN/I.

The Tower of London page is in horrible shape. It is also probably one of the most important pages you could be working on.

Why don't you both verify that you aren't at Wikipedia just for drama AND show how great of a writer you are in topics that are extremely important by fixing that page? You worked on Buckingham Palace, so the Tower should be right there besides it, right?

[Giano]

Just to clarify something. I still content edit quite a bit. However, for reasons best known to myself, I edit in user space and then do one big paste into mainspace and have the user page often with 100s of edits deleted - there is no need for people to see me editing three times trying to write one word. I could never legitimately be an edit-counter-boaster. Also, in the areas I write, there are fewer and fewer pages which have not been already started, so I tend to expand existing pages. I also now spend hours drawing plans - which by necessity have to be drawn offline, but I like doing because I now find text increasingly hard - my content work at Wikipedia has changed in character considerably and will continue to do so, but that does not mean I can't have and express opinions. Until the day they ban me, I will express my opinions.

Giacomo

Giano, you know that I rarely do my edits on Wiki, so I don't bother with edits over what is actually put up. My concern was that you are focusing on tiny pages and abandoning them, which gives you more time to war all over AN/I.

The Tower of London page is in horrible shape. It is also probably one of the most important pages you could be working on.

Why don't you both verify that you aren't at Wikipedia just for drama AND show how great of a writer you are in topics that are extremely important by fixing that page? You worked on Buckingham Palace, so the Tower should be right there besides it, right?

Ottava,

I re-wrote Buckingham Palace from a stub/short page years ago, and I have moved on, I'm not sure I even like the page now; it's certainly not how I would write it today. The Tower of London is before the era I understand; I don't do medieval stuff - I can barely tell perpendicular from pointed. I like English country houses, and recently Montacute and Buscot were both interesting to write, but I have moved on, I want t concentrate more on mainland Europe now, anyway, what's wrong with a small page, if it fills a gap, it's just as important as a big page. Size isn't everything you know.

Giacomo