IronDuke attacks Cla68!, more lessons in demagoguery Options

[gomi]

Since his return from brief, self-imposed exile, IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been routinely accusing our very own Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D) of "meatpuppeting" for a couple of his imaginary arch-enemies. As usual, IronDuke wades into a completely unrelated discussion to pronounce his position.

Cla68, as we know, is not one to back down from a fight, at least when he's right. We discussed this once before. The last time IronDuke went scuttling off with his tail between his legs -- we'll see what happens this time.

[It's the blimp, Frank]

Way to go IronDuke! As if being an inveterate POV pusher weren't enough.

[Tarc]

A shame Jayjg can't swoop in to rescue his assistants like in the old days, eh?

[Cla68]

Since his return from brief, self-imposed exile, IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been routinely accusing our very own Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D) of "meatpuppeting" for a couple of his imaginary arch-enemies. As usual, IronDuke wades into a completely unrelated discussion to pronounce his position.

Cla68, as we know, is not one to back down from a fight, at least when he's right. We discussed this once before. The last time IronDuke went scuttling off with his tail between his legs -- we'll see what happens this time.

What's up with some of the "pro-Israel" editors? They're so confrontational and adversarial in their approach to editing. Sure, some of the "pro-Palestinian" editors can get a little hostile in content disputes, but, in my experience, they're nowhere near as confrontational as editors like Ironduke, Brewcrewer, and some of the others mentioned in that enforcement thread. Ironduke and several others will go into full-on attack mode on anyone they perceive as a threat to their campaign to push their POV in Israel-related articles. Do they really feel that this is an effective tactic?

[gomi]

... Ironduke and several others will go into full-on attack mode on anyone they perceive as a threat to their campaign to push their POV in Israel-related articles. Do they really feel that this is an effective tactic?

Yes, because it very clearly is. IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) , Brewcrewer (T-C-L-K-R-D) , the late, unlamented Brein1007 (T-C-L-K-R-D) , and No More Mr Nice Guy (T-C-L-K-R-D) (the latter two almost certainly someone's socks) get to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of "being a sock puppet of a banned user" or "meatpuppeting for a banned user" or whatever, and some idiot admin or another hits the ban button. IronDuke goes around like a demi-admin, labeling accounts he thinks are socks, and no one does anything about it. Like Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) , when someone has the temerity to call him on it, and doesn't back down, IronDuke goes into hiding until the dust settles, then comes back and starts anew.

So yes, judge from the results -- it is a very effective tactic, in the absence of someone willing to stand up to them.

[Milton Roe]

Since his return from brief, self-imposed exile, IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been routinely accusing our very own Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D) of "meatpuppeting" for a couple of his imaginary arch-enemies. As usual, IronDuke wades into a completely unrelated discussion to pronounce his position.

Cla68, as we know, is not one to back down from a fight, at least when he's right. We discussed this once before. The last time IronDuke went scuttling off with his tail between his legs -- we'll see what happens this time.

Shame on you, Cla68. Still meatpuppeting on WP for a couple of banned users who haven't been seen there for more than 4 years, now. And had nothing in common while they WERE there, actually, except that they both had the bad luck to come under notice of SlimVirgin and whoever her retinue happened to be, in 2006. How do you sleep with yourself at night, for such antics? Grow up.*

You know, 2006 is so long ago that I personally can't remember what I was doing then, except that I do remember that disliked SlimVirgin on WP, even then. But Herschel and Gnetworker?? Who the hell were they? Do you keep a diary or album of HerschelKrustovsky views to insert into articles, or something? Clearly IronDuke still lives in those days. Were there iPhones? Did they wear bellbottoms? It all gets messed up in my mind.

MR


*And if you can't grow up, make sure that you launch all your fueled airplanes, and don't wait to change bombs for torpedoes. Dump the aviation gas over the side, fire off your ship torpedoes, and clear the fueling lines to the deck and fill them with CO2.

--Helpfully, Yamamoto Milton (Hey, this Yamato is NICE. Not good for much, but NICE).

[Cla68]

Since his return from brief, self-imposed exile, IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been routinely accusing our very own Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D) of "meatpuppeting" for a couple of his imaginary arch-enemies. As usual, IronDuke wades into a completely unrelated discussion to pronounce his position.

Cla68, as we know, is not one to back down from a fight, at least when he's right. We discussed this once before. The last time IronDuke went scuttling off with his tail between his legs -- we'll see what happens this time.

Shame on you, Cla68. Still meatpuppeting on WP for a couple of banned users who haven't been seen there for more than 4 years, now. And had nothing in common while they WERE there, actually, except that they both had the bad luck to come under notice of SlimVirgin and whoever her retinue happened to be, in 2006. How do you sleep with yourself at night, for such antics? Grow up.*

If IronDuke would read this essay, he might notice that it describes the very behavior he is engaging in as one of the marks of an activist editor.

[Tarc]

Since his return from brief, self-imposed exile, IronDuke (T-C-L-K-R-D) has been routinely accusing our very own Cla68 (T-C-L-K-R-D) of "meatpuppeting" for a couple of his imaginary arch-enemies. As usual, IronDuke wades into a completely unrelated discussion to pronounce his position.

Cla68, as we know, is not one to back down from a fight, at least when he's right. We discussed this once before. The last time IronDuke went scuttling off with his tail between his legs -- we'll see what happens this time.

What's up with some of the "pro-Israel" editors? They're so confrontational and adversarial in their approach to editing. Sure, some of the "pro-Palestinian" editors can get a little hostile in content disputes, but, in my experience, they're nowhere near as confrontational as editors like Ironduke, Brewcrewer, and some of the others mentioned in that enforcement thread. Ironduke and several others will go into full-on attack mode on anyone they perceive as a threat to their campaign to push their POV in Israel-related articles. Do they really feel that this is an effective tactic?

The Middle East conflict is fought with many weapons; propaganda is as much a tool of war as the soldiers and jihadists are. These clowns think they are fighting the good fight right alongside their real-life counterparts; to them, the openness of a wiki is just a platform to ensure their preferred version of reality is the one that is on display for the world.

And yes, all they do is either lie low when the heat gets turned up too high, or come back as brand-new accounts when the finally get scorched for good. "Wikifan12345" for example is most certainly a returned banned user.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

"Wikifan12345" for example is most certainly a returned banned user.

...who also has an account at the Review. Perhaps Wikifan would care to respond.

[EricBarbour]

Cla, when you mention that you "warned" me for personal attacks, you left a few key details out. The most important of these, of course, is that you were (and apparently still are) meatpuppeting for banned editors User:Gnetwerker and User:Herschelkrustofsky. I had hoped you'd been admonished about this already, or perhaps you decided to ignore it. I think I've been pretty patient about your behavior; I haven't sought any kind of block or ban for what is unambiguously a gross violation of Wikipedia policy, but my patience won't last forever. I have the right to remove any and all comments you make about me or edits against me on behalf of banned editors, though I would rather not do so. I'd rather you acknowledged what you're doing is wrong, or at least promise to cease the disruption.

Oh, and in case that's not already wrong enough, the article in question, Leo Frank, is not in the IP area, and the editor you were championing, User: Machn is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer who made racist and antisemitic statements ("Mr. Ebonics" and "Jew pervert," to take two charming examples). I wouldn't go so far as to say that your going to bat for this editor makes you a white supremacist, rather, I'd say you were pursuing agendas unhelpful to Wikipedia, and should stop immediately. IronDuke 17:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

(IMG:http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/metasonix/SmileyGoneWrong.gif)

But seriously, folks.....that Cptnono (T-C-L-K-R-D) creature is a real freak-show. (A "new" one, anyway. If that isn't a sock, I mean. Which it probably is.)

[Tarc]

"Wikifan12345" for example is most certainly a returned banned user.

...who also has an account at the Review. Perhaps Wikifan would care to respond.

You expect honesty from these vermin? Please... I first thought it was Zeq (T-H-L-K-D), who was banned about a month before 12345's creation, but ol Zeq's grammar was atrocious.

[Cla68]

Here's another example (see also here) of IronDuke engaging in activist behavior by trying to bully an admin who took actions that IronDuke disapproves of. The CC activists did the same thing to Lar before several of them were topic banned. Attempting to bully or intimidate administrators is one of the signs of an editor with a POV agenda.

This post has been edited by Cla68:

[gomi]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did. That said, he's just as biased and hostile on other topics, so it's not clear that it would have in any way improved things.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did.

Which is puzzling, because he seems a lot more thuggish and heavy-handed than, for example, Jayjg, who would be more apt to couch his threats and insults in Wikipedia bureaucratese in order to evade the civility police.

[Cla68]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did.

Which is puzzling, because he seems a lot more thuggish and heavy-handed than, for example, Jayjg, who would be more apt to couch his threats and insults in Wikipedia bureaucratese in order to evade the civility police.

IronDuke's over-the-top hostile approach actually reminds me of Mantanmoreland. Saying stuff like, "Cla68 has been repeatedly warned by admins to stop the behavior yet persists" or "Cla68 has been warned to stop meatpuppeting on behalf of a banned user" are exactly the same kind of things Mantanmoreland used to say. I suspect that if IronDuke ever was actually sanctioned, he would do the same thing as Mantan...wait a few months then start a new account(s) and get right back to it.

This post has been edited by Cla68:

[BelovedFox]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did.

Which is puzzling, because he seems a lot more thuggish and heavy-handed than, for example, Jayjg, who would be more apt to couch his threats and insults in Wikipedia bureaucratese in order to evade the civility police.

IronDuke's over-the-top hostile approach actually reminds me of Mantanmoreland. Saying stuff like, "Cla68 has been repeatedly warned by admins to stop the behavior yet persists" or "Cla68 has been warned to stop meatpuppeting on behalf of a banned user" are exactly the same kind of things Mantanmoreland used to say. I suspect that if IronDuke ever was actually sanctioned, he would do the same thing as Mantan...wait a few months then start a new account(s) and get right back to it.

Well.. that's what most heavily involved users do. They flame out and come back... if they left under a block it's just by another name.

[Lar]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did.

Which is puzzling, because he seems a lot more thuggish and heavy-handed than, for example, Jayjg, who would be more apt to couch his threats and insults in Wikipedia bureaucratese in order to evade the civility police.

IronDuke's over-the-top hostile approach actually reminds me of Mantanmoreland. Saying stuff like, "Cla68 has been repeatedly warned by admins to stop the behavior yet persists" or "Cla68 has been warned to stop meatpuppeting on behalf of a banned user" are exactly the same kind of things Mantanmoreland used to say. I suspect that if IronDuke ever was actually sanctioned, he would do the same thing as Mantan...wait a few months then start a new account(s) and get right back to it.

That's not a reason to not sanction bad users though.

[gomi]

IronDuke's over-the-top hostile approach actually reminds me of Mantanmoreland. Saying stuff like, "Cla68 has been repeatedly warned by admins to stop the behavior yet persists" or "Cla68 has been warned to stop meatpuppeting on behalf of a banned user" are exactly the same kind of things Mantanmoreland used to say. I suspect that if IronDuke ever was actually sanctioned, he would do the same thing as Mantan...wait a few months then start a new account(s) and get right back to it.

I think it is fairly certain that this has already happened. Note Cloud Connection (T-C-L-K-R-D) and others I have forgotten now. He abandons them quickly and generally gets off without repercussion when caught.

[Milton Roe]

The shameful thing is that IronDuke didn't get topic-banned from Israel-Palestine articles when the rest of that crew, including Jayjg, did.

Which is puzzling, because he seems a lot more thuggish and heavy-handed than, for example, Jayjg, who would be more apt to couch his threats and insults in Wikipedia bureaucratese in order to evade the civility police.

IronDuke's over-the-top hostile approach actually reminds me of Mantanmoreland. Saying stuff like, "Cla68 has been repeatedly warned by admins to stop the behavior yet persists" or "Cla68 has been warned to stop meatpuppeting on behalf of a banned user" are exactly the same kind of things Mantanmoreland used to say. I suspect that if IronDuke ever was actually sanctioned, he would do the same thing as Mantan...wait a few months then start a new account(s) and get right back to it.

That's not a reason to not sanction bad users though.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/pinch.gif) I'm not above not NOT sanctioning bad users, especially if they're into guerilla threater grade double-negatives that are not unlikely to be used just as much to cause disruption, as not. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

Lookie, Lar, you know as well as I do that the most perma-banned people on WP are perma-banned for political reasons. Jimbo or some cabalist or cabalista didn't like them and their ideas, so they were banned (supposedly) entirely from WP, rather than topic-banning them (or--horrors--debating them).

Irony: none of this ever works. If a user is smart enough to be totally site banned for being a troll, they're smart enough to get back on, as an impossible-to-catch sock (and many have done so). So whatever is the point of banning them in the first place? Blocking accounts and sprotecting articles works on simple vandals who are simple vandals because they are too unsophisticated, or simply too stupid, to be real trolls or propagandists or single-issue editos or whatever. It doesn't work at all for the actual trolls and single-mad POV pushers, as I think has been demonstrated again and again. Those people must be dealt with by ignoring or reverting them on the issues, but not blocking them unless they descend to actual clear-vandalism.

I work on articles where half the edits are stuff like "faarts smell like poopp." Cluebot only catches half this stuff-- the rest takes time from the scientists and professionals trying to edit in that environment. If the article was merely sprotected at some level, and (if necessary) the vandal-only schoolkid accounts were blocked automatically for rapidly increasing lengths of time, we'd have a lot more eyes for the bigger more difficult (adult) issues. I sometimes suspect that keeping people busy reverting junior high jokes, is an actual WP policy aimed at keeping people from thinking harder about the core issues on WP. But now I repeat myself, since I'm been saying this on WR for years, and so have others. I'm just annoyed because you're repeating YOURSELF.

IronDuke was frothing the other day that Cla68 might be putting up thoughts from two users permabanned 4 years ago. How many GRAWPs and other vandals have come and gone, since HerschelKrustovsky and Gnetworker and WordBomb had the temerity to mock SlimVirgin? And yet, here we are. It's not about the quality of the encyclopedia. Very clearly, it's not about the encyclopedia! So, stop pretending that it is. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Lookie, Lar, you know as well as I do that the most perma-banned people on WP are perma-banned for political reasons. Jimbo or some cabalist or cabalista didn't like them and their ideas, so they were banned (supposedly) entirely from WP, rather than topic-banning them (or--horrors--debating them).

Irony: none of this ever works. If a user is smart enough to be totally site banned for being a troll, they're smart enough to get back on, as an impossible-to-catch sock (and many have done so). So whatever is the point of banning them in the first place?

May I suggest an answer to that question? The point is so that the admin that is OWNing a given group of articles can enforce the house POV there, by asserting that any new editor who contravenes said POV is a sock- or meatpuppet of a banned user (see The Duck Test.) Lar, you were falsely accused of misusing admin powerz in a content dispute. You must know that there are many admins who could be justifiably accused of doing the same, but are not.