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> New Israel/Palestine ArbCom case, Jayjg is one of the parties? No way!
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Cla68
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It appears that this request for arbitration concerning the use of POV geographical terms for disputed territory in the Israel/Palestine area will be accepted. If G-Dett's statement is correct, and I believe that it is, I think she'll be making a strong case in her evidence section that at least some of the pro-Israel POV-pushers are acting in bad faith. It appears to me that the pro-Israel editors will try to focus on labeling MeteorMaker as the Bozo.

If G-Dett makes her case, and I believe she will, I hope that ArbCom will put their foot down and hand out some topic bans, if not more severe sanctions if necessary. Although I'm sure that not all of the pro-Palestinian editors are blameless, the continuous, arrogant POV pushing by the pro-Israel editors, including one in particular who is still enjoys high-level admin privileges for some reason, is greatly damaging to Wikipedia's credibility and I hope something finally gets done about it.
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Snowey
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Sam Blacketer arrives to tank Jay's well-deserved sanctions. He also voted for topic banning G-Dett but against the same for Jay. Seems he's convinced Vassyana to switch votes, too. Can he peel away two more votes?
QUOTE
After a great deal of consideration, I move to opposition. I have deeply conflicted feeling about this remedy and the supporting findings. I agree with the underlying principles driving this remedy. Regardless, I am also deeply concerned with issues of presentation and impression. Jayjg has not misused the tools and I do not believe a small "thank you" appended at the end will be sufficient to correct misconceptions to the contrary. While an acknowledgement regarding misconduct in relation to the various administrative roles is a great principle to communicate, I cannot help but feel that the various misunderstandings of the intended message (which vary in substance, rationale, and perspective) must be considered. For these and other reasons (this is already long), I feel this remedy would be counterproductive to our intended goals.

What a steaming pile of bullshit.

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Saltimbanco
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QUOTE
After a great deal of consideration, I move to opposition. I have deeply conflicted feeling about this remedy and the supporting findings. I agree with the underlying principles driving this remedy. Regardless, I am also deeply concerned with issues of presentation and impression. Jayjg has not misused the tools and I do not believe a small "thank you" appended at the end will be sufficient to correct misconceptions to the contrary. While an acknowledgement regarding misconduct in relation to the various administrative roles is a great principle to communicate, I cannot help but feel that the various misunderstandings of the intended message (which vary in substance, rationale, and perspective) must be considered. For these and other reasons (this is already long), I feel this remedy would be counterproductive to our intended goals.


Hee hee hee!

The "but he didn't misuse the functionary tools!" argument is more than a bit like defending a daycare employee from being fired after he has been convicted of a violent sex crime, on the basis that the crime did not involve children.
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CharlotteWebb
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QUOTE(Saltimbanco @ Mon 11th May 2009, 7:13pm) *

The "but he didn't misuse the functionary tools!" argument is more than a bit like defending a daycare employee from being fired after he has been convicted of a violent sex crime, on the basis that the crime did not involve children.

Well I don't see the basis for that comparison, but I will say you have unusual taste in hyperbole. Thankfully so do I, though I've been trying my damnedest not to comment on this, I really have.

My analogy would be that the Daily Planet ((IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bc/Wiki.png/25px-Wiki.png)) didn't like his Spin Doctoring, so they took away his x-ray vision.

Could be that somebody back there is invoking the Aleman v. Cook County as an exception to the autrefois acquit defense, or just has a Pocket Full of Kryptonite (but at least his right to remain silent still applies).

Or they could be that they are laundering some evidence that they are not allowed to describe. All I can say is it was bound to happen eventually. I'm sure there are pundits who expect me to put on that party dress, fire up the bong, and dance on his grave (maybe even undergo an RFA to commemorate this event but I'm not like that).

I'll probably get a couple cat-calls over this crap though, just you watch.

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Mr. Mystery
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QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Wed 13th May 2009, 3:12am) *

QUOTE(Saltimbanco @ Mon 11th May 2009, 7:13pm) *

The "but he didn't misuse the functionary tools!" argument is more than a bit like defending a daycare employee from being fired after he has been convicted of a violent sex crime, on the basis that the crime did not involve children.

Well I don't see the basis for that comparison, but I will say you have unusual taste in hyperbole. Thankfully so do I, though I've been trying my damnedest not to comment on this, I really have.

My analogy would be that the Daily Planet ((IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bc/Wiki.png/25px-Wiki.png)) didn't like his Spin Doctoring, so they took away his x-ray vision.

Could be that somebody back there is invoking the Aleman v. Cook County as an exception to the autrefois acquit defense, or just has a pocket full of kryptonite (but at least his right to remain silent still applies).

Or they could be that they are laundering some evidence that they are not allowed to describe. All I can say is it was bound to happen eventually. I'm sure there are pundits who expect me to put on that party dress, fire up the bong, and dance on his grave (maybe even undergo an RFA to commemorate this event but I'm not like that).

I'll probably get a couple cat-calls over this crap though, just you watch.


I always did admire your fortitude after Jay casually used CU tools to torpedo your RFA. His CU access should have been removed then, in my opinion.
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CharlotteWebb
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QUOTE(Mr. Mystery @ Wed 13th May 2009, 3:39am) *

I always did admire your fortitude after Jay casually used CU tools to torpedo your RFA. His CU access should have been removed then, in my opinion.

Well I didn't want to say anything that might be construed as an attempt to influence the outcome of this case, because as far as I knew it had nothing to do with the 2007 [1] allegations of checkuser apartheid.

In response to certain recent arbcom decisions one often hears such post-modern aphorisms as "well, they finally got Capone for tax evasion" which really begs the question regarding the ethical basis of prohibition (or income tax for that matter) but I digress.

QUOTE(trenton @ Wed 13th May 2009, 11:49pm) *

according to this, while Mr. Jayjg has not been editing, he seems to have been pretty active on the oversight front....

Perhaps this is part of the hypothetical laundered evidence to which I alluded above. That is, if citing specific examples of abuse is verboten, if some kind of policy or non-disclosure agreement governing cloak'n'dagger access levels prohibits this, arbcom might feel the need to issue this type of sanction ex nihilo or for unrelated reasons [2]. But I'm not really sure about that as there are no previous similar decisions to compare this to, as I understand this is the first time such access has been involuntarily removed [3].

I doubt they're still worked up over the torpedo incident, in fact I hope they aren't. They did mention my name but as context for his "avoid generating drama" sanction. I had half a mind to reach in there and prune that crap from Jayjg's arbcomography as enumerated in FoF #8, mostly because it's meaningless and fuck-all to do with Israel, Palestine, beer, or the price of firewalls in the PRC.

I mean sure I was devastated at the time, but I don't think it has adversely affected me in the long-term and once again I didn't want to be seen as being "petty and vindictive", contributing to his demise, etc. On the other hand I remembered that hardly anybody reads the FoFs before concocting sanctions anyway so I'd only be drawing more attention to it (Streisand effect?).

While I'd suppose that the result was probably in the community's best interest I cannot be entirely sure how and why it came about. Thus I don't certainly don't see the "transparency in arbcom" panacea reaching its hyped and heralded level of fruition.

Jay is not my worst enemy on Wikipedia (though he may be his own), but even if he was he'd still deserve a fair trial, and this lacks the appearance of that. I don't dispute the presence of evidence supporting a topic ban of some scope or duration, but if you read the rest it says his super-user bits were removed due to conduct which was "unbecoming of his position [as oversight and checkuser]" even while unrelated to it.[2]

At face value this makes me uneasy as I've always felt users should be sanctioned in no other capacity than the one in which they misbehaved. Anything beyond that would actually reduce accountability by encouraging the exclusive use of top-secret incognito accounts for non-"custodial" tasks (content editing in particular) once the perceived risk of being desysopped (or whatever) for no pertinent reason becomes too great.

However I'm not prepared to take this at face value, as experienced readers will recall prior situations in which he used both checkuser and oversight inappropriately, plus there seems to be some evidence that he had continued to use these tools despite no longer editing. I guess if the wheel's still spinning but the hamster's dead, the CSCWEM precedent could reasonably apply, and this strongly would suggest he is/was using a new account pursuant to the previous paragraph.

Good for him, maybe he can edit something uncontroversial yet still within his areas of interest, such as Crash, Empire of the Sun, and new articles about every synagogue in the western hemisphere, etc. In fact I wish him well, but still I implore the committee to refactor this case so that it reflects/clarifies the actual reasons for their rather landmark decision, lest anyone draw naïve conclusions.[2]

[1] The year, not the number of... never mind...
[2] such as garden-variety edit-warring or a rhetorical fixation with beer.
[3] well, on the English Wikipedia anyway.

This post has been edited by CharlotteWebb:
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Cla68   New Israel/Palestine ArbCom case  
Herschelkrustofsky   Very interesting. Typically, Jayjg has not yet dei...  
Milton Roe   It appears that this request for arbitration conc...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='158695' date='Thu 26th ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I doubt that anyone who edits Wikipedia is comple...  
the fieryangel   I don't know why anybody bothers to even follo...  
EricBarbour   I don't know why anybody bothers to even foll...  
Tarc   I don't know why anybody bothers to even foll...  
gomi   Jayjg's M.O., which I believe he will use in t...  
Deacon   I look very much forward to seeing how this case p...  
CharlotteWebb   I look very much forward to seeing how this case ...  
Deacon   I look very much forward to seeing how this case...  
Dzonatas   *me adds reply about the conflict of ArbCom case o...  
LamontStormstar   I remember people speculated Jayjg has now been so...  
Dzonatas   I think it is hard to dismiss the fact that Israel...  
Milton Roe   Those who are against the Likud movement choice o...  
Dzonatas   Curious about whether or not within Israel, are t...  
Dzonatas   From the Likud Party's charter: Most notably,...  
Cla68   Just as I thought would happen, G-Dett and others ...  
Proabivouac   I'd given this some thought over the past few ...  
gomi   I'd given this some thought over the past few ...  
Cla68   Ouch. By the way, it looks like Jaakobou has been...  
LamontStormstar   Jayjg did WTC. PS: This is not about any group, t...  
EricBarbour   Amazing, simply beyond belief. G-Dett must have ...  
It's the blimp, Frank   G-Dett must have some kind of supernatural Jew-pr...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='EricBarbour' post='159803' date='Fri...  
Dzonatas   There is no evidence that any of these character...  
Cla68   Jayjg has presented some evidence, responded to on...  
EuroSceptic   Jayjg has presented some evidence, responded to o...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='160667' date='Wed 11th ...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Cla68' post='160667' date='Wed 11th...  
Tarc   And he's been [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/i...  
Rhindle   G-dett appears to be a front runner for next year...  
Doc glasgow   Wikipedia has a Zionist/Israeli bias controlled by...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Wikipedia has a Zionist/Israeli bias controlled b...  
EricBarbour   That's typical Jay. He waits till the first st...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I couldn't help but think of Wikipedia today w...  
Cla68   I couldn't help but think of Wikipedia today ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I just [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?t...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Cla68' post='160856' date='Wed 11th ...  
Milton Roe   I couldn't help but think of Wikipedia today ...  
Rhindle   This looks pretty damning.  
Cla68   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reque...  
Herschelkrustofsky   By the way, it lasted about [url=http://en.wikipe...  
Cla68   By the way, it lasted about [url=http://en.wikip...  
Lar   My question is, why didn't GHCool try to find...  
Cla68   My question is, why didn't GHCool try to fin...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Cla68' post='160902' date='Wed 11th...  
Cla68   Why? Umm, if you don't want to do a thing, or ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   IronDuke, who appears to be one of them, [url=htt...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Milton Roe' post='161057' date='Thu ...  
Cla68   Sometimes non-POV editing is just about impossible...  
Cock-up-over-conspiracy   See latest post, here: Leading Wikipedia editor Da...  
Mackan   That's good analysis. It may be petty, but ...  
Cla68   That's good analysis. It may be petty, but...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I think the Post took Freeman to task was because...  
Dzonatas   Consider how Freeman became appointed AND confirme...  
Herschelkrustofsky   As for the neocons, Obama seems to have already r...  
Dzonatas   There are striking parallels here to the [url=htt...  
Milton Roe   Consider how Freeman became appointed AND confirm...  
Dzonatas   Like they care about their "image" more...  
Cla68   I suspect that the ArbCom may vote on topic bans f...  
gomi   I suspect that the ArbCom may vote on topic bans f...  
EricBarbour   Interesting. Brewcrewer, Canadian Monkey, ChrisO, ...  
Milton Roe   Interesting. Brewcrewer, Canadian Monkey, ChrisO,...  
Cla68   I'm biased of course, but I believe that this ...  
The Adversary   I'm biased of course, but I believe that [url...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='170473' date='Mon 27th ...  
KimvdLinde   I'm biased of course, but I believe that this...  
gomi   Good for Kirill Lokshin, finally calling Jayjg on ...  
Cla68   Good for Kirill Lokshin, finally calling Jayjg on...  
Milton Roe   Those are strong words by Kirill. If being allow...  
EricBarbour   Is this 6SJ7 thing a sockpuppet, Jay's attor...  
Heat   Is this 6SJ7 thing a sockpuppet, Jay's atto...  
tarantino   Is this 6SJ7 thing a sockpuppet, Jay's attorn...  
trenton   Well, I see that no one has mentioned one of the m...  
gomi   Well, I see that no one has mentioned one of the ...  
The Adversary   [quote name='trenton' post='170655' date='Mon 27t...  
KimvdLinde   Oh yes. And note that the person who got Palesti...  
Cla68   Jpgordan shows up to tell PR to basically suck it ...  
Kato   Au contraire. I think that this: Wikipedia:Requ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   [i]Au contraire. I think that this: Wikipedia:...  
The Adversary   [quote name='Kato' post='170657' date='Mon 27th A...  
Kato   Anyone remember "Alice in Wonderland";...  
Kato   More comedy here from that old PalestineRemembered...  
Lar   More comedy here from that old PalestineRemembere...  
The Adversary   [quote name='Lar' post='170971' date='Wed 29th Apr...  
The Joy   Shouldn't opposes have detailed rationales tha...  
Cla68   Shouldn't opposes have detailed rationales th...  
EricBarbour   Well, I hope that the next book written on Wikiped...  
Warui desu   Shouldn't opposes have detailed rationales th...  
Kato   The "evidence"* at this case is a riot. ...  
Eva Destruction   "Giant egg"? Is that a personal attac...  
Heat   An arb has noticed Jayjg's "lack of parti...  
Milton Roe   An arb has noticed Jayjg's "lack of part...  
Heat   Voting has begun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki...  
Herschelkrustofsky   The fickle finger of wiki power has put the writi...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I am concerned about the obligatory show of ...  
Cla68   I am concerned about the obligatory show of ...  
The Adversary   [quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='171574' da...  
Kato   Arbitrators need to be careful when they restrict ...  
trenton   Yeah, the remedies are kinda bizarre. One side wan...  
Cla68   Yeah, the remedies are kinda bizarre. One side wa...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Well, if they hadn't edit warred they would p...  
trenton   Well, if they hadn't edit warred they would p...  
UseOnceAndDestroy   Well, if they hadn't edit warred they would ...  
gomi   [quote name='trenton' post='171957' date='Wed 6th ...  
GlassBeadGame   As has been said before: "Wikipedia is a sy...  
Jon Awbrey   [quote name='gomi' post='171971' date='Wed 6th Ma...  
No one of consequence   If you keep in mind the adage about wine and sewa...  
The Joy   If you keep in mind the adage about wine and sewag...  
trenton   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='171980' ...  
pedrito   Well, if they hadn't edit warred they would p...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='171651' date='Mon 4th M...  
Heat   Ironic statement of the year: http://en.wikipedia....  
Tarc   Another gem; The Jayjg-disciples act like a bun...  
pedrito   And while this is going on... Tiamut left in disgu...  
Heat   And our old friend SlimVirgin is in the middle of ...  
Casliber   Unfortunately arbcom cannot rule on content, so li...  
KimvdLinde   Unfortunately arbcom cannot rule on content, so l...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Unfortunately arbcom cannot rule on content, so l...  
Doc glasgow   Unfortunately arbcom cannot rule on content, so ...  
Heat   The proposal(s) to strip Jay of his functionary st...  
Jon Awbrey   [b][size=4]sinicure Acupuncture? Ja Ja :boing:  
gomi   The proposal(s) to strip Jay of his functionary st...  
Jon Awbrey   [quote name='Heat' post='172059' date='Thu 7th Ma...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Heat' post='172059' date='Thu 7th M...  
TungstenCarbide   [quote name='Heat' post='172059' date='Thu 7th Ma...  
Herschelkrustofsky   I'm kind of hoping Jay isn't stripped. Th...  
EricBarbour   http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj408/kamaze14...  
Herschelkrustofsky   SlimVirgin has emerged from the shadows to offer a...  
Milton Roe   SlimVirgin has emerged from the shadows to offer ...  
UseOnceAndDestroy   SlimVirgin has emerged from the shadows to offer ...  
written by he who wrote it   SlimVirgin has emerged from the shadows to offer ...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='172242' da...  
Cedric   Oh, they'll try to be clever, like trying to ...  
Heat   I was wondering about SV's work on the Exodus ...  
EricBarbour   Is it too cynical to think that SV decided to, for...  
Herschelkrustofsky   She probably thinks she's "glamorous...  
Snowey   Risker talked some sense into Calisber, so it...  
Heat   Risker talked some sense into Calisber, so it...  
The Adversary   [quote name='Snowey' post='172398' date='Sat 9th ...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Dang! This makes WP perceptibly more credible....  
Casliber   Dang! This makes WP perceptibly more credible...  
EricBarbour   This makes WP perceptibly more credible. Um.........  
Heat   Ding-dong the witch is dead.  
Milton Roe   Ding-dong the witch is dead. Not quite, as he ha...  
Heat   Gaming from the beginning. This goes back to 2005...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Milton Roe' post='172551' date='Sun ...  
Cla68   [quote name='Milton Roe' post='172551' date='Sun ...  
Heat   Sam Blacketer arrives to tank Jay's well-dese...  
gomi   Sam Blacketer arrives to tank Jay's well-dese...  
Milton Roe   Sam Blacketer arrives to tank Jay's well-des...  
thekohser   So what's going on with him? Anybody know him...  
Milton Roe   So what's going on with him? Anybody know hi...  
tarantino   ... as I understand this is the first time such a...  
CharlotteWebb   A week ago, arbcom removed the checkuser and over...  
No one of consequence   A week ago, arbcom removed the checkuser and ove...  
gomi   [quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='173057' dat...  
No one of consequence   [quote name='No one of consequence' post='173331'...  
One   156 deletions and oversights while under the clou...  
gomi   I'm tired of these conspiracy theories. Please...  
One   Relying on the unsupported representations of tho...  
gomi   Meet the new cabal, same as the old cabal. Sorry, ...  
Cedric   [quote name='One' post='173360' date='Fri 15th Ma...  
One   Sorry, but what part of [i][b]"You cannot fi...  
Jon Awbrey   Sorry, but what part of [i][b]"You cannot f...  
Snowey   Just as we would desysop an admin for prolific edi...  
Snowey   [quote name='One' post='173346' date='Fri 15th Ma...  
CharlotteWebb   No, that's really all there was. Basically, ...  
One   [quote name='One' post='173346' date='Sat 16th Ma...  
GlassBeadGame   [quote name='One' post='173346' date='Sat 16th M...  
Lar   I always thought it odd that ArbCom "opinion...  
CharlotteWebb   Apparently, a supermajority of the committee beli...  
One   I'm just saying that sanctions which do not a...  
CharlotteWebb   With an existing method to remove the tools, the ...  
No one of consequence   But this is all hearsay due to the secrecy of eve...  
EricBarbour   Jay is not my worst enemy on Wikipedia (though he ...  
The Adversary   Seriously, Prob needs a new hobby: "If you s...  
Snowey   Ding dong.  
Tarc   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wi...  
Heat   [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=W...  
written by he who wrote it   [quote name='Snowey' post='172828' date='Tue 12th...  
Heat   [quote name='Snowey' post='172828' date='Tue 12t...  
trenton   rights removed (request) SV's opportunism is...  
The Joy   [url=http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=...  
Snowey   Play him off, Keyboard Cat! More like this, ja...  
The Joy   Play him off, Keyboard Cat! More like this, j...  
Herschelkrustofsky   So what is Jayjg's next move? His patented for...  
The Adversary   So, finally, finally over. Ok, I have mixed feeli...  
written by he who wrote it   Good Lord. Next: some new gang bands up on WP, a...  
trenton   according to this, while Mr. Jayjg has not been ed...  
Herschelkrustofsky   according to [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi...  
Casliber   So, finally, finally over. Ok, I have mixed feel...  
Saltimbanco   I think the underlying story here is that Hasbara,...  
SelfHater   It's interesting looking at the talk pages for...  
Herschelkrustofsky   No One of Consequence has slightly better-than-ave...  
Herschelkrustofsky   Well, he is an inveterate POV pusher and bully. Th...  
One   I didn't miss it. As I said above, we implicit...  
Heat   I didn't miss it. As I said above, we implici...  
One   Records indicate that in 2006 Jayjg twice lost hi...  
Heat   [quote name='Heat' post='173411' date='Sat 16th M...  
Milton Roe   [quote name='Heat' post='173411' date='Sat 16th ...  
Snowey   I didn't miss it. As I said above, we implicit...  
One   Well if problems associated with his POV/editing ...  
CharlotteWebb   Can you please explain what kind of rubric you use...  
One   Maybe you can also draft a policy to this effect ...  
CharlotteWebb   If you feel strongly about it, you should do it. ...  
One   I didn't say that, exactly. I only said that ...  
EricBarbour   These are our highest volunteer positions. Allowin...  
gomi   We try to do things in the best interest of the en...  
One   We try to do things in the best interest of the e...  
CharlotteWebb   No, I suspect he would be topic banned. The topic...  
One   I know I have friends I trust not to lie to me pl...  
CharlotteWebb   Ordinary editors are not expected to be good exam...  
Cla68   I think that POV checkusers are especially demoral...  
One   I think that POV checkusers are especially demora...  
Cla68   [quote name='Cla68' post='173440' date='Sat 16th ...  
CharlotteWebb   In spite of CharlotteWebb's personal experien...  
The Joy   [quote name='Cla68' post='173440' date='Sat 16th ...  
gomi   Anyhow, this thread has gone on too long. My only ...  
Lar   I have nothing else to say here.No doubt. Like S...  
One   If you beat up those working for change because t...  
Lar   If you beat up those working for change because ...  
Snowey   Anyhow, I don't have to comment here, and so I...  
Heat   Anyhow, I don't have to comment here, and so ...  
cyofee   [quote name='Snowey' post='173534' date='Sun 17th...  
trenton   [quote name='One' post='173516' date='Sun 17th Ma...  
Kelly Martin   Don't forget sucking up to the god-king on IRC...  
written by he who wrote it   I still wonder how Jayjg got chosen; at the time ...  
Kelly Martin   Why did he object to your appointment?No specific ...  
Cla68   [quote name='Kelly Martin' post='173806' date='Tu...  
zvook   I still wonder how Jayjg got chosen; at the time ...  
Kelly Martin   Was Morven on the ArbCom at that time?Morven was n...  
gomi   Why do you think he wants change? He seems to want...  
Kato   The reason I see Wikipedia as being essentially th...  
The Joy   I think, One, we are confused as to why you do not...  
CharlotteWebb   Even if Jayjg does not use his tools to enforce h...  
Heat   If people feel that the Arbcomm erred by allowing ...  
Heat   So Jayjg's been gone for some time now. When d...  
Kelly Martin   So Jayjg's been gone for some time now. When d...  
Casliber   So Jayjg's been gone for some time now. When ...  
EricBarbour   meaning....? .....the bastard is so secretive, eve...  
KimvdLinde   Come on, the people behind JayJG are already ready...  
Heat   Kelly's point raises another question - what s...  
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