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> Everybody’s reaction to Wikipedia has gotten warmer over time, as Wikipedia’s earned credibility
Milton Roe
post Sat 7th August 2010, 3:14am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 6th August 2010, 8:02pm) *

It's 22 O'Block — Do You Know Where Your Comments Are?

Comments Posted — 7
Comments Nulled — 22

Keep Those Cards & Letters Coming, Kiddies!

Jon tongue.gif

Well, that's what you get for not posting constructive criticism, but instead just swearing and suggesting unnatural acts. You vandals. sad.gif

I'm sure that Wikipedia in general and Sue Gardner in particular, would be open to a sober adult discussion of WP's problems, without trying to censor them. Which is the reason why the Wikipedia Review can probably be shut down just about any time now.

wink.gif
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Jon Awbrey
post Sat 7th August 2010, 3:24am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Fri 6th August 2010, 11:14pm) *

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 6th August 2010, 8:02pm) *

It's 22 O'Block — Do You Know Where Your Comments Are?

Comments Posted — 7
Comments Nulled — 22

Keep Those Cards & Letters Coming, Kiddies!

Jon tongue.gif


Well, that's what you get for not posting constructive criticism, but instead just swearing and suggesting unnatural acts. You vandals. sad.gif

I'm sure that Wikipedia would be open to a sober adult discussion of its problems without trying to censor them. Which is the reason why the Wikipedia Review can probably be shut down just about any time now.

wink.gif


Now, Milton, you Old WALL•E Scag, I'm sure it's just that our Community@Large commentaries inspire Sue Gardner to such depths of dark-nighted soul-searching that it takes her far longer to mediate on their moral and practical consequences than the smackering of yes-person soft-balls she gets from her Community In A Nut’shell.

Don't you doubt it for a moment …

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Somey
post Sat 7th August 2010, 3:57am
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 6th August 2010, 6:06am) *
...you have to suspect that the other 16 or more were either all ads for \/|/-\⅁℞/-\ or regarded by Ms. Gardner as equally valuable to “Da Cause”.

I don't know if you've ever operated a blog before, but it actually is entirely plausible that the other 16 comments were all ads for various "male-enhancement" products...

Having said that, one of the comments that did make it through was posted by a feller named Lars Aronsson.
QUOTE
...there are many who should be able do outreach work without writing Wikipedia. There are far more people who read Wikipedia than who write. Millions of people use the English Wikipedia, but only 40,000 make more than 5 edits in a regular month. For the Swedish Wikipedia, that is 1,000 regular editors and for smaller languages even fewer. As a comparison, there are 4 to 8 times more librarians than wikipedians. Add journalists, teachers and students, and we have far more regular readers than writers. These are our bigger community, and some of them should be able to help in the outreach.

I want some of whatever he's smokin'! smile.gif

So let me get this straight - they have trouble enough trying to ensure that the people they're actually familiar with aren't head-cases, political extremists and sex perverts (considering how many of them actually are); now this one wants to put people out there, to speak on behalf of the "movement," with whom they have no familiarity whatsoever? And he thinks they're really going to get some of them to actually do it?

Amazing.
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Jon Awbrey
post Sat 7th August 2010, 4:08am
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QUOTE(Somey @ Fri 6th August 2010, 11:57pm) *

QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 6th August 2010, 6:06am) *

… you have to suspect that the other 16 or more were either all ads for \/|/-\⅁℞/-\ or regarded by Ms. Gardner as equally valuable to “Da Cause”.


I don't know if you've ever operated a blog before, but it actually is entirely plausible that the other 16 comments were all ads for various "male-enhancement" products …


Well, I do know of 1 out of 16 22 that wasn't.

But I really do sympathize — they've obviously got a lot more technololically over-inflated pricks already than they know what to do with …

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Moulton
post Sat 7th August 2010, 10:42am
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Your comment is awaiting moderation.

August 7, 2010 at 3:40 AM

One of the core tools for the success of an enterprise is the faculty for sober self-evaluation.

Peter Senge, more than anyone, has written brilliantly on how to build a successful “Learning Organization” that continually strives for “Ethical Best Practices” that are the hallmark of successful organizations.

See Peter Senge’s seminal book, “The Fifth Discipline: The Theory and Practice of Learning Organizations.”

Here, for example, are three core traits of successful Learning Organizations, according to Peter Senge:

1. Excel at seeing systems. Successful Learning Organizations recognize basic system phenomena everywhere — limits to success, shifting the burden to the intervener, accidental adversaries. In particular, they see the system independent of organizational boundaries.

2. Collaborate across boundaries with ease. Successful Learning Organizations know how to get the whole system in the room and respect the different interests and perspectives of all stakeholders, making it possible to build their social networks and realize breakthrough innovations.

3. Move easily from problem solving to creating. Fear and anxiety can definitely motivate action, but rarely does it encourage our best contributions or sustained effort. These leaders are both pragmatic – they’re always prototyping and experimenting – one definition of creating. Successful Learning Organizations are also oriented toward possibility, evoking inspiration and creativity throughout the system.

Sue, please take some time to examine the Five Disciplines that Peter Senge identifies as important faculties for any successful Learning Organization. The Five Disciplines are:

1. Personal Mastery is a discipline of continually clarifying and deepening our personal vision, of focusing our energies, of developing patience, and of seeing reality objectively.

2. Mental Models are deeply ingrained assumptions, generalizations, or even pictures of images that influence how we understand the world and how we take action.

3. Building Shared Vision is a practice of unearthing shared pictures of the future that foster genuine commitment and enrollment rather than compliance.

4. Team Learning starts with dialogue, the capacity of members of a team to suspend assumptions and enter into genuine thinking together.

5. Systems Thinking is the Fifth Discipline that integrates the first four.

Source: Wikipedia article on The Fifth Discipline

Regards,

Barry Kort / User:Moulton

This post has been edited by Moulton: Sat 7th August 2010, 10:45am
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Jon Awbrey
post Sat 7th August 2010, 6:32pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Sat 7th August 2010, 6:42am) *

Your comment is [no longer] awaiting moderation.

August 7, 2010 at 3:40 AM


Congratulations, you've just been e-similated, alien.gif 8 of 33

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Moulton
post Sun 8th August 2010, 3:10am
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Now you can do a Post-Mortem / Post-Partum Analysis, to determine what passes muster and gets dismissed, disregarded, or turned aside.
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Jon Awbrey
post Sun 8th August 2010, 8:33am
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Sat 7th August 2010, 11:10pm) *

Now you can do a Post-Mortem / Post-Partum Analysis, to determine what passes muster and gets dismissed, disregarded, or turned aside.


Maybe if I had thought of pasting a link to a suitable Wikipedia article ???

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Moulton
post Sun 8th August 2010, 10:02am
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It's very interesting when the barking dogs come out.

I first noticed this phenomenon in my own personal life some 28 years ago.

I had met a divorcee — a 36-yr old elementary school teacher — who would inexplicably become angry or defensive seemingly at random, with no discernible pattern to what set off the "barking dogs."

It turned out that she (and two other members of her nuclear family) suffered from Dyslexia, the upshot of which was that almost all of her learning was from direct personal experience, and almost none from reading. (She taught First Grade, so that most of the books she had to deal with in her professional life were books written for 6-yr olds.) Any time I ventured into a discussion of something that could only be known from reading a book, magazine, or newspaper, her barking dogs came out. It had not occurred to me that she had a reading disability because one wall of her living room was an expansive bookcase, filled with books that ranged far beyond any titles I was familiar with. If I would pull some book at random from her bookcase, she would invariably say something like, "Oh, I didn't like that book." It took me a long time to realize that her books were just for show and that she had not read any of them. My own personal collection of books was meager by comparison, but I had read almost every one that I owned. Eventually I realized that whenever I ventured into a subject where she had an undisclosed gap in her knowledge, her emotional state not only swung negative, it swung way negative.
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Jon Awbrey
post Mon 9th August 2010, 3:22pm
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Speaking of Barfing Dogs …

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Milton Roe
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:05pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 8th August 2010, 3:02am) *

It's very interesting when the barking dogs come out.

I first noticed this phenomenon in my own personal life some 28 years ago.

I had met a divorcee — a 36-yr old elementary school teacher — who would inexplicably become angry or defensive seemingly at random, with no discernible pattern to what set off the "barking dogs."

It turned out that she (and two other members of her nuclear family) suffered from Dyslexia, the upshot of which was that almost all of her learning was from direct personal experience, and almost none from reading. (She taught First Grade, so that most of the books she had to deal with in her professional life were books written for 6-yr olds.) Any time I ventured into a discussion of something that could only be known from reading a book, magazine, or newspaper, her barking dogs came out. It had not occurred to me that she had a reading disability because one wall of her living room was an expansive bookcase, filled with books that ranged far beyond any titles I was familiar with. If I would pull some book at random from her bookcase, she would invariably say something like, "Oh, I didn't like that book." It took me a long time to realize that her books were just for show and that she had not read any of them. My own personal collection of books was meager by comparison, but I had read almost every one that I owned. Eventually I realized that whenever I ventured into a subject where she had an undisclosed gap in her knowledge, her emotional state not only swung negative, it swung way negative.

Interesting. I've seen the same thing with math illiteracy.
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Moulton
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:27pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 9th August 2010, 1:05pm) *
Interesting. I've seen the same thing with math illiteracy.

Not surprisingly, this same person was not only math illiterate, she had more math anxiety than anyone I had ever met. I used to tutor math and physics in college, so I was used to working with students who were struggling with these subjects.

It was during one such tutoring session with this same person that really put me onto a theory connecting emotions to learning. She had gone back to the local community college to obtain a Masters in Education, so as to advance her teaching career. She had to take a required course called "Statistics for Education" and it was this course that brought out her extraordinarily high levels of math anxiety.

I'll skip over the details of the anecdote (they are published elsewhere), but the upshot of it was that I stumbled onto an insight that turned into this model of cognition, emotions, and learning.
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Moulton
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:32pm
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Sue has released a comment from MZMcBride.

Following up on McBride...

QUOTE(Sue's blog)
Barry Kort

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

August 9, 2010 at 10:02 AM

I have found it uncommonly difficult to submit constructive criticisms, no matter how tactfully worded they are.

For reasons not entirely clear to me, the denizens of Wikiculture label almost any feedback as a “personal attack” or as “trolling.”

Such feedback is commonly dismissed, disregarded, or simply reverted in a manner that often borders on churlishness.

It is in these situations that social critics have traditionally turned to humor, including satire and parody, to communicate their message. It’s a folk theorem that when those in power don’t take their critics seriously, their critics turn to the art of ridicule.

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GlassBeadGame
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:44pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 8th August 2010, 4:02am) *

It's very interesting when the barking dogs come out.

I first noticed this phenomenon in my own personal life some 28 years ago.

I had met a divorcee — a 36-yr old elementary school teacher — who would inexplicably become angry or defensive seemingly at random, with no discernible pattern to what set off the "barking dogs."

It turned out that she (and two other members of her nuclear family) suffered from Dyslexia, the upshot of which was that almost all of her learning was from direct personal experience, and almost none from reading. (She taught First Grade, so that most of the books she had to deal with in her professional life were books written for 6-yr olds.) Any time I ventured into a discussion of something that could only be known from reading a book, magazine, or newspaper, her barking dogs came out. It had not occurred to me that she had a reading disability because one wall of her living room was an expansive bookcase, filled with books that ranged far beyond any titles I was familiar with. If I would pull some book at random from her bookcase, she would invariably say something like, "Oh, I didn't like that book." It took me a long time to realize that her books were just for show and that she had not read any of them. My own personal collection of books was meager by comparison, but I had read almost every one that I owned. Eventually I realized that whenever I ventured into a subject where she had an undisclosed gap in her knowledge, her emotional state not only swung negative, it swung way negative.


Funny, she explains it as your having a small penis.
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Moulton
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:53pm
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QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Mon 9th August 2010, 1:44pm) *
Funny, she explains it as your having a small penis.

You've talked to her?!?

What else did she say?
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dtobias
post Mon 9th August 2010, 5:56pm
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If Wikipedia critics want to try to get some more traction (while Sue is surely stretching things a bit to say that "everybody" has a better reaction to them now, it does seem to be true that critics have less weight in the outside conversations about Wikipedia these days than a few years ago when attacking Wikipedia was somewhat trendy in some circles), perhaps they should hope for a new wave of BADSITES-style attempts at suppressing criticism (Sue's talk of stopping all the bickering could possibly launch a trend that way). That sort of squelching of critics, of which there has been much less lately than around 2007 or so when the likes of SlimVirgin held a high degree of power, is something that gets even libertarian-oriented types (like myself) to start supporting the critic side of the various Wikipedia-related issues, which helps get that side some airing even in the tech press, sometimes trickling down to the mainstream media as well.
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Jon Awbrey
post Mon 9th August 2010, 6:06pm
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Mon 9th August 2010, 1:56pm) *

If Wikipedia critics want to try to get some more traction (while Sue is surely stretching things a bit to say that "everybody" has a better reaction to them now, it does seem to be true that critics have less weight in the outside conversations about Wikipedia these days than a few years ago when attacking Wikipedia was somewhat trendy in some circles), perhaps they should hope for a new wave of BADSITES-style attempts at suppressing criticism (Sue's talk of stopping all the bickering could possibly launch a trend that way). That sort of squelching of critics, of which there has been much less lately than around 2007 or so when the likes of SlimVirgin held a high degree of power, is something that gets even libertarian-oriented types (like myself) to start supporting the critic side of the various Wikipedia-related issues, which helps get that side some airing even in the tech press, sometimes trickling down to the mainstream media as well.


I don't see that anything has changed except the subtlety and the sneakiness of the squelching. Open suppression has become more covert, that's all.

Jon Awbrey
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GlassBeadGame
post Mon 9th August 2010, 6:09pm
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QUOTE(dtobias @ Mon 9th August 2010, 11:56am) *

If Wikipedia critics want to try to get some more traction (while Sue is surely stretching things a bit to say that "everybody" has a better reaction to them now, it does seem to be true that critics have less weight in the outside conversations about Wikipedia these days than a few years ago when attacking Wikipedia was somewhat trendy in some circles), perhaps they should hope for a new wave of BADSITES-style attempts at suppressing criticism (Sue's talk of stopping all the bickering could possibly launch a trend that way). That sort of squelching of critics, of which there has been much less lately than around 2007 or so when the likes of SlimVirgin held a high degree of power, is something that gets even libertarian-oriented types (like myself) to start supporting the critic side of the various Wikipedia-related issues, which helps get that side some airing even in the tech press, sometimes trickling down to the mainstream media as well.


Thanks for the report from the Mensa snack bar.
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Jon Awbrey
post Mon 9th August 2010, 6:11pm
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QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 9th August 2010, 1:32pm) *

And MZMcBride is subtly cautioned by The Grand Inquisitor (11 of 45).

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thekohser
post Mon 9th August 2010, 6:43pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Mon 9th August 2010, 2:11pm) *

QUOTE(Moulton @ Mon 9th August 2010, 1:32pm) *

And MZMcBride is subtly cautioned by The Grand Inquisitor (11 of 45).

Jon ph34r.gif


Yes, Sue specifically says:

QUOTE
For the rest of your post though — at the risk of sounding truculent, I have to say that you talking about “poor and short-sighted choices” and how the critics “have so much to say” is exactly the kind of reflexive, unsubstantiated negativity I’m talking about. Substantive criticisms are of course legitimate and can be useful; it’s blanket overstatements that I find unhelpful. And more so than unhelpful, I find them kind of perplexing.


Being that I posted a substantive and specific criticism that is still waiting to be accepted...
QUOTE
Gregory Kohs says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
August 9, 2010 at 10:20 AM

I couldn’t agree more with Dr. Kort’s immediate comment here. As an example of feedback being dismissed, disregarded, or simply reverted… recently I volunteered to assist the Wikimedia Foundation with its “Research Committee”. I’m a director of market research for a $52 billion company, having been responsible for the design and execution of about $10 million worth of research in my career. After my post to the Wikimedia mailing list was finally let through, a couple of responses were rather insulting toward me, and one comment suggested that I didn’t have enough peer-reviewed academic publishing under my belt to even be considered for this coveted volunteer committee.


...Sue can frankly stick it up her arachnid ass until that moment she accepts that comment off of moderation.
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