MBisanz: You're soooooooo vain! Options Rating

[Sarcasticidealist]

He really is Wikipedia's everyman! Is there anything MBisanz hasn't done on Wikipedia?

I don't think "everyman" means what you think it means. In fact, I think it means something very close to the opposite of what you think it is. Some nerd you are.

[Achromatic]

And for whatever it's worth, putting expected graduation dates on resumes is certainly the norm up here; I'd be surprised if the culture was any different in the States.

Certainly, if you're at least (to be generous) in your final year, not 'before first day of class'.

It's one thing to say "class of `12", it's another thing to list it on your curriculum vitae as an accomplishment / qualification / education when it's not been attained.

Similar, though less formal. If I hold an NREMT-B certification (Emergency Medical Technician / ambulance officer, what have you), and I am intending to take a course at the end of this year for my EMT-P (Paramedic) certification, I certainly ain't putting "NREMT-P, June 2010 (Expected)" on my resume. Like Kelly says, he's been admitted only, and most likely has not attended a class yet (though I would be entirely unsurprised, looking at his User Page, if he did attend a summer class).

As an aside, which sounds more impressive, and ingenuous:

DCC AS in Hum. and Soc. Sci. '04
DCC AS in Sci. '04
DCC AS in Business '04
DCC Cert. in Career Planning '04
OLL HS Regents diploma '04

Or "I completed a Gen Ed course at my local Community College"?

Especially when they're a transfer degree, basically "I completed Gen Ed pre-reqs". Not, "I obtained four Associates Degrees in the same year I graduated high school"?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder does seem to be the prevailing wind on the above.

This post has been edited by Achromatic: Wed 12th August 2009, 12:51am

[Nerd]

He really is Wikipedia's everyman! Is there anything MBisanz hasn't done on Wikipedia?

I don't think "everyman" means what you think it means. In fact, I think it means something very close to the opposite of what you think it is. Some nerd you are.

I'd have thought someone with the name "Sarcasticidealist" would have caught on, but I guess not.

[Kelly Martin]

Jesus, really? That's nuts. I'm estimating, but I'm virtually certain that no Canadian law school has a first year failure rate higher than 10%. Do those figures include people who drop out, possibly because they would have to repeat classes?

That includes drop-outs for any reason. Most people don't actually fail; when it becomes apparent that they're going to fail they get a phone call from the dean advising them to withdraw for "personal reasons".

Law school is an incredibly competitive sport in the United States, especially at top tier schools.

[Sarcasticidealist]

Law school is an incredibly competitive sport in the United States, especially at top tier schools.

Law school admission is certainly competitive here, to the benefit of those of us who have sold our souls to the LSAT prep industry, but I've found law school itself to be very collegial. Mind you, the top tier of Canadian law schools basically consists of the University of Toronto, with most other schools being able to non-absurdly claim to be in the next tier.

Certainly, if you're at least (to be generous) in your final year, not 'before first day of class'.

It's one thing to say "class of `12", it's another thing to list it on your curriculum vitae as an accomplishment / qualification / education when it's not been attained.

If somebody's been accepted into a program that they plan on pursuing, I think including it on the resume is not far off obligatory. And including an expected graduation date is actually much more honest than not, since it allows people (as we've all been doing here) to discern just how far into the program they are. This strikes me as much ado about nothing.

[A Horse With No Name]

I wonder if Newyorkbrad will get Matt a job at his law firm when or if he graduates from law school.

That reminds me, I haven't seen Brad in a while? Is he stuck on the toilet or something?

[MBisanz]

Couple responses here:

I put "expected" because that is what I have always put for degrees in progress (such as during my senior year of college in reference to my MBA studies the year after) on my resume and when I had it critiqued at my school's career center they actually asked permission to include it in the book of model resumes and never mentioned that as an issue. I believe the inclusion of both "expected" and the most likely date of graduation is full disclosure.

Georgetown has a 2.1% attrition rate from year one to year two of law school [1], so while I certainly expect it will be very challenging, will require exorbitant amounts of time, and that there is no guarantee I will do well or even pass, I do expect to be one of the 455 students who returns out of a class of 458 students.

I did earn 3 Associates degrees during my senior year of high school. It was a combination of proficiency exams, going to night class after high school during the day, taking online courses during the weekend, and attending summer courses. I transferred 144 credits into college when I was 18. I don't really know how else to phrase those facts.

Hope that answers the concerns.

This post has been edited by MBisanz: Wed 12th August 2009, 1:49am

[Achromatic]

Certainly, if you're at least (to be generous) in your final year, not 'before first day of class'.

It's one thing to say "class of `12", it's another thing to list it on your curriculum vitae as an accomplishment / qualification / education when it's not been attained.

If somebody's been accepted into a program that they plan on pursuing, I think including it on the resume is not far off obligatory. And including an expected graduation date is actually much more honest than not, since it allows people (as we've all been doing here) to discern just how far into the program they are. This strikes me as much ado about nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "OMG should not be an admin/bcat because of this", I just found it an amusing corroborating evidence of some narcissistic personality disorder.

Normally on a resume you would put:

"2009 - present Georgetown University Jurisprudence Doctor"

Graduation is not 'expected', even if you scored a 99% LSAT. That's all. I think he's a narcissist. Who on god's green earth, let alone Wikipedia, needs either to know, let alone to verify the verbal/math breakdown of his GMAT. It's purely there for 'look at me, look at me' value.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hope that answers the concerns.

Hmmm...he didn't answer my concerns. Just because I have four legs and a tail doesn't mean my concerns aren't relevant.

[Sarcasticidealist]

Graduation is not 'expected', even if you scored a 99% LSAT.

Er, yeah, it kind of us. Who starts an academic program without "expecting" to graduate? Besides, the whole point of the word "expected" being there is to indicate that graduation isn't a certainty.

That's all. I think he's a narcissist. Who on god's green earth, let alone Wikipedia, needs either to know, let alone to verify the verbal/math breakdown of his GMAT. It's purely there for 'look at me, look at me' value.

Fair enough; I'm probably just coming to the defense of a fellow narcissist here. We tend to circle the wagons (and then look inward at the giant mirrors we have set up).

This post has been edited by Sarcasticidealist: Wed 12th August 2009, 2:07am

[TungstenCarbide]

It's technically improper for him to claim to have attended a school that he has merely only been admitted to. Given that most first-division law schools have first-year fail rates in the 30% to 60% range...

Jesus, really? That's nuts...

My undergraduate school had two straight years of weeder classes. Typically classes started with 200, half of which dropped. Of the 100 left 50% failed. They had a grading curved calculated from the previous ten years. This was absolutely crucial to get rid of the drunks and idiots. By junior year the core classes for that major were about 30. Back then a person's GPA actually meant something - I understand nowadays that grade inflation is rampant in the US.

[Emufarmers]

So, this leads to the most obvious question for MBisanz: what's with all of those pictures of you? It looks like you're the most photographed man this side of Robert Pattinson -- how does it feel to be the center of the shutterbugs' focus?

Given how ugly Matt is, I think it's good that he has a little self-confidence.

It's technically improper for him to claim to have attended a school that he has merely only been admitted to.

Technically, he doesn't claim to have attended it. (I don't think this is nitpicking, since he has a list of schools he's attended on his user page.)

[Sarcasticidealist]

My undergraduate school had two straight years of weeder classes.

Yeah, at the undergrad level that makes some sense.* But by the time you get into law school, everybody but me has already demonstrated some level of academic proficiency, so you wouldn't think weeding would be as necessary.

* At most (though the number is decreasing) Canadian schools, law is technically an undergraduate program, and we get LL Bs instead of JDs. The distinction is purely nominal, though, since admission requirements, curricula, and credentials are pretty much equivalent in each case. In fact, when Canadian schools move from awarding LL Bs to awarding JDs, pretty much all that changes is the letters on the degree.

[Sarcasticidealist]

Given how ugly Matt is, I think it's good that he has a little self-confidence.

I had sex with your mother.

[dtobias]

Given how ugly Matt is, I think it's good that he has a little self-confidence.

I had sex with your mother.

That gives "How I Met Your Mother" new meaning.

[A Horse With No Name]

Given how ugly Matt is, I think it's good that he has a little self-confidence.

I had sex with your mother.

Steve, you are such a slut!

[Cedric]

It's technically improper for him to claim to have attended a school that he has merely only been admitted to. Given that most first-division law schools have first-year fail rates in the 30% to 60% range, I'd say it's highly optimistic of him to predict graduation quite so soon.

Dang it, Kelly! Now I have that cheesy TV theme running through my mind.

[One]

My personal favorite was the "Juris Doctor, Georgetown, 2012 (Expected)".

If I saw this in a resume, and you were anything more than a term away from graduation (let alone 3 damn years), I'd laugh, and throw your resume out.

"Currently studying". Yes. "In progress". Sure.

Not "Expected".

I can see "Expected" being written/sniffed haughtily while looking down the nose.

Apparently MBisanz feels that Georgetown's JD program is unchallenging, a moot point, a fait accompli. Perhaps he could express that to his professors and see if they could do something about it?

This is common. Maybe not for someone who hasn't even begun law school, but for a 1L (that is, next month), this is what you put on your resume. Compared to undergrad, law school is a very stable three years, with two predictable summers where everyone tries to intern. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't do much legal hiring?

It was on my resume, and I got plenty of offers in the fat days of 2007 (that is, two years before graduation).

Incidentally, MBisanz, you don't want to go to law school now do you? I'm not confident that the economy will recover in three years, and the legal market is ugly right now.

That includes drop-outs for any reason. Most people don't actually fail; when it becomes apparent that they're going to fail they get a phone call from the dean advising them to withdraw for "personal reasons".

Law school is an incredibly competitive sport in the United States, especially at top tier schools.

Sorry Kelly, there's no top-tier law school (which Georgetown certainly is) with 30% attrition. In fact, law schools are more competitive toward the bottom. This makes sense. At lower-regarded schools, only the top students might find jobs as partner-track associates. At Northwestern or UChicago virtually everyone who starts as a 1L finishes three years later (except joint degree students). You're describing something more like John Marshall Law School (downtown Chicago), which is very competitive and has a high attrition rate.

This post has been edited by One: Wed 12th August 2009, 3:26pm

[Kelly Martin]

Sorry Kelly, there's no top-tier law school (which Georgetown certainly is) with 30% attrition. In fact, law schools are more competitive toward the bottom. This makes sense. In lower-regarded schools, only the top students might be find jobs as partner-track associates. At Northwestern or UChicago virtually everyone who starts as a 1L finishes three years later (except joint degree students). You're describing something more like John Marshall Law School (downtown Chicago), which is very competitive and has a high attrition rate.

Things have changed since I went to law school, I guess. We had a moderately high attrition rate at my old school despite being first-tier. I will admit that I may have confused the 1L and three year attrition rates; the memory ain't what it used to be. (Then there's the startlingly low "practice retention rate" shown by many schools: the percentage of graduates who are actively practicing law five years after graduation.) I also wonder to what degree the top tiers are self-excluding the most common cause of attrition (running out of money) through ridiculously high tuitions; professional school tuitions have soared to absurd levels in the past decade.

I keep thinking someday I should go back and finish my degree, but I dread repeating first year, which I'd probably have to do as my credits are now ten years stale and I doubt I'd get transfer credit for them. Oh well.

[One]

Things have changed since I went to law school, I guess. We had a moderately high attrition rate at my old school despite being top-tier. I will admit that I may have confused the 1L and three year attrition rates, as well.

I keep thinking someday I should go back and finish my degree, but I dread repeating first year, which I'd probably have to do as my credits are now ten years stale and I doubt I'd get transfer credit for them. Oh well.

Could be. Might have been the economy. A couple years ago it was very nearly literally true that "everyone gets jobs" from my school. That is, nearly everyone who went to top-tier school could get a job at a law firm paying the highest market salary--if they wanted to go to such a firm. Since the internet IPO boom, there had been a seemingly inexhaustible demand for graduates. In that environment, there's no reason to be competitive. Everyone at these schools were was set.

That said, I hear that the years beneath me are finding it much more difficult to get these jobs, and grades matter, while they barely mattered for my class (only for the top-of-the-top firms). I suspect that top law schools will become more competitive again. Georgetown might be especially competitive because it's enormous.

However, at this moment in time, it is still the norm for 1L applicants to display their expected date of graduation.

This post has been edited by One: Wed 12th August 2009, 3:29pm