Palestinians to face 'Wikipedia War' - Ma'an News Agency Options

[Moulton]

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

[Anonymous editor]

common knowledge, moulton

if you want to know why 'anti-semite' is now used as a term for 'anti-jew' or something, that's a different story. I've yet to hear anyone say semite refers to jews only, and it really is common knowledge that semite is a broader term than that. for example, majoring in semitic languages.

This post has been edited by Anonymous editor: Sun 29th August 2010, 10:09pm

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

common knowledge, moulton

Difficult one ... yes, common knowledge - in theory - but the Zionists do seem to want as much of a monopoly over the term as they do the territory now known as Israel.

Boy, Zionism is sure becoming this forum's this week's pedophilia or pornography dominating umpteen threads. But then I guess it is all popular entertainment.

I predict the Palestinians will lose again in the long term. There is far more bandwidth in Israel and America than there is coming out of a shelled bunker in the Gaza Strip. But it will become a long protracted and expensive war that we will all become dragged into in one way or another.

The problem with the Wikipedia is that there is no obstacle or disincentive for any editor to strap on some metaphorically explosive facts and blow themselves and some topics up online .... endlessly. I mean, Israel has a fair few tanks on the domain but, without being able to offer broad cash incentives, it is far less supported internationally than it is in real life.

I am not getting involved.

[CharlotteWebb]

International politics= mob rule?

Not inherently but they are two frightening words to find in the same sentence.

The problem with the Wikipedia is that there is no obstacle or disincentive for any editor to strap on some metaphorically explosive facts and blow themselves and some topics up online ....

Hatred is mankind's only renewable resource. All others are exhausted at some point.

[Moulton]

Hatred is mankind's only renewable resource. All others are exhausted at some point.

Hate is a mask for Fear.

Everyone comes with a Fear Processor — primarily the Amygdala and the Hippocampus.

That Dreadful Fear Processor is always gonna find something to declare dreadful, and then translate that Object of Dread into an Object of Hate.

Don'tcha just hate it when your Bloody Fear Processor gets carried away like that?

[Wikifan]

common knowledge, moulton

Difficult one ... yes, common knowledge - in theory - but the Zionists do seem to want as much of a monopoly over the term as they do the territory now known as Israel.

Boy, Zionism is sure becoming this forum's this week's pedophilia or pornography dominating umpteen threads. But then I guess it is all popular entertainment.

I predict the Palestinians will lose again in the long term. There is far more bandwidth in Israel and America than there is coming out of a shelled bunker in the Gaza Strip. But it will become a long protracted and expensive war that we will all become dragged into in one way or another.

The problem with the Wikipedia is that there is no obstacle or disincentive for any editor to strap on some metaphorically explosive facts and blow themselves and some topics up online .... endlessly. I mean, Israel has a fair few tanks on the domain but, without being able to offer broad cash incentives, it is far less supported internationally than it is in real life.

I am not getting involved.

Palestinian PR is not designed in Palestine but Europe and USA. Average Palestinians have little to no influence over how their worldwide image is shaped and developed.

Generally, Wikipedia has far more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel editors. Many Israel-related articles suffer from serious edit-warring and POV disputes. The concept of reliable sources is frustrating because RS exists to support all narratives, including Israel=Nazi Germany.

The Palestinians will always win the propaganda war simply because they have more money and energy to support it. The Arab states have pumped billions in petrodollars to purchase Middle Eastern study departments at mainstream universities (Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, London School of Economics, etc..) and the media is highly dependent on the Palestinian plight for revenue.

To think, the god-fathers in modern terrorism - hijacking airplanes, torching embassies, killing thousands all across the war, starting civil wars in Jordan and Egypt, killing and murdering each other, and assassinating Western diplomats - have managed to rewrite their history of violence and place the blame solely on the shoulders of Israel. The Palestinian plight is no longer attributed to a series of conflicts and wars involving multiple nations, but the Nakba - an event 6 decades ago where the ancestors of today's Palestinians were displaced and expelled in a regional war.

Even though the Palestinians are world record holders in humanitarian aid and their livelihood attracts more attention than all oppressed-peoples combined, people still whine about an absence of attention and lack of sympathy for the Palestinian people. That is by far one of the greatest lies in Arab victimhood.

In the 1970s, no one said this conflict was predicated on the creation of a Palestinian nation. The argument that the Arab states were passive victims to a belligerent Israel was laughed at.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

Except for the quote below ... congratulations for a perfect study of insane hate garbage from a whacko Zionist Wikipedia troll.

Now, let's just take a look at that map again of how much land the Palestinians have had taken from them since 1946 and predict when Israel's final solution will be carried out.

Again, typical of the level Wikpedia is at ... its comes down to binary thinking. No room for an alternative point of view (humanitarian, objective, etc) "you are either with us or against us" on the sum of all human conflict.

Average Palestinians have little to no influence over how their worldwide image is shaped and developed.

[Wikifan]

Except for the quote below ... congratulations for a perfect study of insane hate garbage from a whacko Zionist Wikipedia troll.

Now, let's just take a look at that map again of how much land the Palestinians have had taken from them since 1946 and predict when Israel's final solution will be carried out.

Again, typical of the level Wikpedia is at ... its comes down to binary thinking. No room for an alternative point of view (humanitarian, objective, etc) "you are either with us or against us" on the sum of all human conflict.

Average Palestinians have little to no influence over how their worldwide image is shaped and developed.

Anymore ad-hominem attacks? Do you deny any of the explicit facts I provided in my post above?

IfAmericaKnew is an Arab propaganda site designed by state department-lacky Andrew Kilgore infamous for his personal relationship with the apartheid state of Qatar.

Between 1948-1967 Egypt and Jordan controlled the "Palestinian territories." Tell us why no Palestine was created when Israel had no influence over the Palestinian refugees?

It seems to me you are the one who has reduced this conflict to a zero-sum game, where the Arab end is subject to intense infantilization and Israel is vilified with anti-Zionist buzzwords.

The main reason why the Palestinians remain displaced and their Muslim allies are entrenched in the 7th century is because of mentalities such as yours. The reactionary blame-Israel harms the Palestinians more than Israel.

If Zionism never happened Arabs would still be as miserably as they are today. They would just find another soft-target to dump on.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

Anymore ad-hominem attacks? Do you deny any of the explicit facts I provided in my post above?

There are no "explicit facts" in your posts. They are just shitpots of racist and hyperbolic garbage, fed into a liquidizer and scrambled as to make it as confusing and provocative as possible, whilst the Israeli Defence Force continues to shoot children, and run tanks over grandmothers, as they ethnical cleanse the Middle East.

The problem with your world view is that it does not account for the "explicit fact" that most people in this world, and I suspect a large proportion of editors on the Wikipedia, are just plain disgusted by Israel's human rights record and it has nothing to do with race, religion or even national politics ... and then there was all that controversy of Israel using money to try and buy collusion on the Wikipedia. I am sorry but that is likely to get folks back up.

It is one thing edit-warring for free against another jerk off who is also doing it for free but having to edit-warring for free against state sponsored team of jerk offs is just not on.

It is a simple equation. If you don't want people to say you stink, don't stink. And if you do stink, don't point at someone else and say the stink is coming from them. Go and have a bath.

This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy: Mon 13th September 2010, 5:53am

[The Adversary]

The Palestinians will always win the propaganda war simply because they have more money and energy to support it.

Jeez, you are something else; I have obviously encountered my first real ET.
What it the planet you are normally living on called?

[The Joy]

Palestinians are wealthy? That's news to me. I thought the Palestinian economy relied primarily on Israelis utilizing Palestinian labor? With the Gaza War, the border wall, and the continuous attacks on both sides, one would think that Palestinians would have less access to technology and means of major propaganda campaigns.

Then again, it costs nothing to use Web 2.0 tools like wikis, pod/vodcasts, video sites (i.e. YouTube, Google Video, etc.), blogs, forums, and websites. But in that regard, that would mean that Israel and Palestine are on equal ground with no advantages or disadvantages to either side as long as both sides have the patience and time to keep up the fight. There's always going to be back and forth between both groups.

On Wikipedia, special-interest cabals and groups have to keep up the pressure on their opponents indefinitely to hold on to their pet articles. Sometimes one group will win for a time, but then the other group gains the upper hand. The only way to destabilize the equilibrium is for one side to attain the most power and fight indefinitely to maintain it. That means manipulating the system, demonizing reformers, and squashing dissent while maintaining a public face of fairness and equality to gain public support and approval. That isn't easy to do (as Jayjg and Slim Virgin have found out over time). Things fall apart, the center cannot hold. Eventually, it blows up. Someone messes up, a rebellion breaks out, external forces intervene, servers explode, etc. I can't conceive of either the Israelis or the Palestinians winning the propaganda war in the long time via Web 2.0. Both sides can point to the other's atrocities and each one's tragedies. It's a cruel stalemate in reality and in cyberspace. No winners, only losers.

(I apologize if I'm repeating things already mentioned. I've been in and out of this thread.)

[Wikifan]

Palestinians are wealthy? That's news to me. I thought the Palestinian economy relied primarily on Israelis utilizing Palestinian labor? With the Gaza War, the border wall, and the continuous attacks on both sides, one would think that Palestinians would have less access to technology and means of major propaganda campaigns.

Palestinian leaders are very wealthy. Yasser Arafat siphoned millions in humanitarian aid to pay for mansions in Paris and penthouses in London. Hamas in Gaza imposes obscene price-fixes on tunnels, reaping in more than 50 million a month. That's pure cash, since the UN and Palestinian Authority in the WB provide more than 1 billion annually to subsidize the lives of ordinary Gazans.

According to the IMF and UN, the Palestinians have one of the fattest growing economies in the World. The West Bank economy is expected to grow by 16% this year. Israel's relationship with the Palestinian Authority has fostered strong economic growth, but the reality is the Arab states want to have nothing to do with the Palestinians so they're left to deal with the Zionists or rot.

Saudi playboys spend more waxing their Bentleys and supporting Al-Qaeda/Taliban than their Palestinian brethren.

There are no "explicit facts" in your posts. They are just shitpots of racist and hyperbolic garbage, fed into a liquidizer and scrambled as to make it as confusing and provocative as possible, whilst the Israeli Defence Force continues to shoot children, and run tanks over grandmothers, as they ethnical cleanse the Middle East.

The problem with your world view is that it does not account for the "explicit fact" that most people in this world, and I suspect a large proportion of editors on the Wikipedia, are just plain disgusted by Israel's human rights record and it has nothing to do with race, religion or even national politics ... and then there was all that controversy of Israel using money to try and buy collusion on the Wikipedia. I am sorry but that is likely to get folks back up.

It is one thing edit-warring for free against another jerk off who is also doing it for free but having to edit-warring for free against state sponsored team of jerk offs is just not on.

It is a simple equation. If you don't want people to say you stink, don't stink. And if you do stink, don't point at someone else and say the stink is coming from them. Go and have a bath.

Can you point out what statements in my post meet the definition of racism? IDF shooting children, running grandmothers over tanks, and trying to "ethnically cleanse the Middle East" seems pretty hyperbolic to me. If Israel is engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing, it isn't doing a very good job, considering the Palestinians have one of the highest life expectancies in the ME and extremely high population growth rate.

I don't think the State of Israel cares much about Wikipedia. The Muslim states are obsessed with their public image and spend a large portion of their annual economy buying time in the Western media, mostly in the form of Israel/Palestinian news.

You see, the attention on Israel has less to do with some humanitarian concern for Palestinians and more to do with the Arab League's historic lightening rod policy. Israel acts as a huge distraction for their genocides, ethnic cleansing, apartheid governments, exportation of terrorism. The I/P conflict generates more press than all conflicts fought by Muslim countries combined. Egypt using US helicopters to support Al-Shabaab, Saudi Arabia's consistent support for Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and extremist Muslim pressure groups in the US and Europe, Arab League's collective support for the on-going campaign to exterminate the dinkas in Sudan, and institutionalized oppression of ethnic and religious minorities throughout the Arab world including progressive nations like Lebanon and Jordan ignored or subject to minimal scrutiny by the world.

Notice how there is no international boycott on Muslim countries for their human rights record and foreign policy. In fact, they are not only ignored, but victimized. If I was an Arab state I would never make peace with Israel. A resolution would force the media to look elsewhere for Middle East news...probably turn on the Muslim states and expose their awful contributions to human suffering and denying basic human rights.

This post has been edited by Wikifan: Mon 13th September 2010, 7:35am

[The Joy]

Money on Web 2.0 does not necessarily mean power. That's my argument. Whether the Israeli government or the Saudi princes provide funding for propaganda on Web 2.0 sites, they are both equally powerful. As I said, the equilibrium can change for the short-term if one said gains enough social and technical power over the other such as Requests for Administrator access on Wikipedia and whatnot. The ones in power must be careful to maintain their power while dealing with dissent and yet not show that they are being biased. This strategy cannot last and then the equilibrium returns to the normal or shifts the other way like a see-saw. It's a case of mental attrition. As long as both sides have the equal will to keep fighting, there is no way one side can claim victory forever.

A few years ago, Wal-Mart was accused on Wikipedia of paying employees solely to remove negative information from Wikipedia. Editors who tried to end this bias were beaten down as there were too many pro-Wal-Mart editors reverting them and able to avoid the 3 Revert Rule (WP:3RR (T-H-L-K-D)). Not many people care about the Wal-Mart article, so the anti-Wal-Mart crowd faded away. They had too few members and too little time to deal with it. I do not think that Israel and its allies or the Palestinians and its allies could do what Wal-Mart allegedly* did. Even if the Palestinians did the propaganda alone and with a smaller budget, they would still have enough members and sympathizers to keep their Web 2.0 propaganda war up.

Am I making any sense or not?

*Please don't sue me, Wal-Mart! That's just what I heard!

[Malik Shabazz]

Generally, Wikipedia has far more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel editors.

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it the truth. There are many more pro-Israel editors than there are pro-Palestinian editors, but they belly-ache louder than the pro-Palestinian editors about how Wikipedia is biased against them.

[nableezy]

Generally, Wikipedia has far more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel editors.

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it the truth. There are many more pro-Israel editors than there are pro-Palestinian editors, but they belly-ache louder than the pro-Palestinian editors about how Wikipedia is biased against them.

There are barely any "pro-Palestinian" editors if we define "pro-Palestinian" they way "pro-Israel" is usually defined. Almost nobody pushes a "Palestinian POV". Hell, I don't even try to get the "Palestinian POV" into articles. Certain users, among them newly registered members of this forum, have been incredibly successful in creating this illusion that most of the "battles" in the I-P area are really between the "I POV" and the "P POV". It isnt and never has been. Two examples of this come to mind, "Israeli settlements" vs "towns" and "West Bank" vs "Judea and Samaria".

For the first example, look at how the argument on how to describe the localities Israel has built in the occupied territories. One "side" argues for "Israeli town" or "Jewish village", the other for "Israeli settlement". One side is arguing for what is clearly an "Israeli POV", the other for what everybody else uses. Nobody argues for what would be the "Palestinian POV", that is "Israeli colony in occupied Palestine". Never is such a phrase even suggested to be used as the primary description much less even discussed as an "alternative viewpoint". The "Palestinian POV" is routinely ignored, it does not even get discussed. But simple-minded fucks like some of our beloved Wikipedia administrators can't get past "there are 2 sides here, one must be I the other must be P" mentality.

Now look at "Judea and Samaria" vs "West Bank". The same exact type of argument, one is undeniably the "Israeli POV" the other what everybody else uses. The "Palestinian POV", that the West Bank is the eastern portion of occupied Palestine, is never discussed. The users who argue for using the terminology not used by the Palestinians but by everybody else are however branded as "one side" in a dispute between the Is and the Ps.

There are nearly no Palestinian editors that actively edit in the topic area. Only a small number of Arabs. Hell, there are more Jewish "pro-Palestinian" editors than there are Arab ones.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

IDF shooting children, running grandmothers over tanks, and trying to "ethnically cleanse the Middle East" seems pretty hyperbolic to me.

Except that it based on truth. I would class your insane degrees of lies as part of racist hate speech.

The world is united against any government killing children for its political aims. To condemn the Government of Israel's inherent and defining racism, and the lack of humanitarian ethics, does not make one "anti-Israel" or "pro-Palestinian".

Of course, not all Jews or even Israelis agree with them either.

The U.S. provides Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid.

$0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000

39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza.

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians 0.

What are the Israeli figures?

This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy: Tue 14th September 2010, 12:17am

[Milton Roe]

There are nearly no Palestinian editors that actively edit in the topic area. Only a small number of Arabs. Hell, there are more Jewish "pro-Palestinian" editors than there are Arab ones.

WIKIPEDIA :

2 Jews, 3 Opinions, 9 Edit-Wars

[Emperor]

Except that it based on truth. I would class your insane degrees of lies as part of racist hate speech.

Posts which make false allegations that other posters have engaged in hate speech, by quoting out of context or similar misrepresentation, are subject to deletion. These are the tactics of slander and propaganda, which will not be tolerated by the Wikipedia Review.

[Wikifan]

Generally, Wikipedia has far more pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel editors.

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it the truth. There are many more pro-Israel editors than there are pro-Palestinian editors, but they belly-ache louder than the pro-Palestinian editors about how Wikipedia is biased against them.

There are barely any "pro-Palestinian" editors if we define "pro-Palestinian" they way "pro-Israel" is usually defined. Almost nobody pushes a "Palestinian POV". Hell, I don't even try to get the "Palestinian POV" into articles. Certain users, among them newly registered members of this forum, have been incredibly successful in creating this illusion that most of the "battles" in the I-P area are really between the "I POV" and the "P POV". It isnt and never has been. Two examples of this come to mind, "Israeli settlements" vs "towns" and "West Bank" vs "Judea and Samaria".

This is a lie Nableezy and you know it. There is nothing sinister about being "pro-Palestinian." Many editors openly advertise their pro-Palestinian sympathies, including you. That is fine, I am not offended. But don't deny it.

For the first example, look at how the argument on how to describe the localities Israel has built in the occupied territories. One "side" argues for "Israeli town" or "Jewish village", the other for "Israeli settlement". One side is arguing for what is clearly an "Israeli POV", the other for what everybody else uses. Nobody argues for what would be the "Palestinian POV", that is "Israeli colony in occupied Palestine". Never is such a phrase even suggested to be used as the primary description much less even discussed as an "alternative viewpoint". The "Palestinian POV" is routinely ignored, it does not even get discussed. But simple-minded fucks like some of our beloved Wikipedia administrators can't get past "there are 2 sides here, one must be I the other must be P" mentality.

The Israeli settlement debate is one of the few I/P articles where one side is obviously right and the other wrong. Wikipedia must reflect what reliable sources say, and reliable sources most often refer to Israeli towns and villages in the West Bank as "settlements." The term "settlement" does not necessarily negate town/village/status.

Now look at "Judea and Samaria" vs "West Bank". The same exact type of argument, one is undeniably the "Israeli POV" the other what everybody else uses. The "Palestinian POV", that the West Bank is the eastern portion of occupied Palestine, is never discussed. The users who argue for using the terminology not used by the Palestinians but by everybody else are however branded as "one side" in a dispute between the Is and the Ps.

Judea and Samaria are the historic terms, "West Bank" is interchangeable with the historic name. The West Bank is the West Bank because Jordan is the East Bank. Original Jordanian leadership were bent on naming their country Palestine but British officials told them not to.

There are nearly no Palestinian editors that actively edit in the topic area. Only a small number of Arabs. Hell, there are more Jewish "pro-Palestinian" editors than there are Arab ones.

I think the debate has more to do with political philosophy than ethnic loyalty.

Except that it based on truth. I would class your insane degrees of lies as part of racist hate speech.

LOL way to pull the race card.

The world is united against any government killing children for its political aims. To condemn the Government of Israel's inherent and defining racism, and the lack of humanitarian ethics, does not make one "anti-Israel" or "pro-Palestinian".

Can you please provide any evidence that the Israeli government has established a policy of killing children for its "political aims."

According to the United Nations, almost 90% of Palestinian deaths were male. Of those, the majority were above the age of 14. Considering the average age of a Palestinian in Gaza/West Bank is 17 (legal child), and Palestinian militants have an open and proud history of arming children, I'd say any allegations that the IDF is deliberately targeting children is dubious.

Compared to conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Yemen, etc...where Islamists have no problem brainwashing impressionable teens to join the fight, the Israel/Palestinian conflict has a much lower civilian/combatant ratio.

Of course, not all Jews or even Israelis agree with them either.
The U.S. provides Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid.

$0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000

39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza.

Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians 0.

What are the Israeli figures?

Who collects the most casualties is a function of who is weaker, it has absolutely nothing to do with who is right/wrong from a moral perspective. Israel has F-16s and the Palestinians are lousy fighters.

USA has provided the Palestinians with more than 500 in military aid. In fact the US military is actively training Palestinian security forces. the PSS frequently cooperate with the IDF in catching Hamas and Islamist militants.

You can thank the USA and Israel for the decreased violence in the West Bank. The support for the Palestinian Army has made them less dependent on Israel for security and now Palestinian officials are begging Israeli generals to allow settlers back into Palestinian cities so they can contribute to their economy. So much for the boycott.

Why does Israel receive US aid? Because the Jews own America?

It's too bad many on the left resort to hyperbole and emotion when discussing Israel/Palestine.

[nableezy]

There are barely any "pro-Palestinian" editors if we define "pro-Palestinian" they way "pro-Israel" is usually defined. Almost nobody pushes a "Palestinian POV". Hell, I don't even try to get the "Palestinian POV" into articles. Certain users, among them newly registered members of this forum, have been incredibly successful in creating this illusion that most of the "battles" in the I-P area are really between the "I POV" and the "P POV". It isnt and never has been. Two examples of this come to mind, "Israeli settlements" vs "towns" and "West Bank" vs "Judea and Samaria".

This is a lie Nableezy and you know it. There is nothing sinister about being "pro-Palestinian." Many editors openly advertise their pro-Palestinian sympathies, including you. That is fine, I am not offended. But don't deny it.

You misunderstand. I dont plan on explaining other than to ask that you read what you respond to more carefully.