Request For Comment JzG2, Is Mr. Guy Chapman (aka, JzG) going away? Options

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...or_comment/JzG2

It is starting now?

Yep.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin

This post has been edited by WhispersOfWisdom:

Not sure what that was - quoting youself in the same post (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif) but yes it has started.

Not sure what that was - quoting youself in the same post (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif) but yes it has started.

That was me not knowing how to use a computer. Sorry. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

Yes, we can has RfC. (sorry a lolcat image isn't available)

Oh goodie, another Spammish Inquisition.

I know they're just trying to be diplomatic, but all they're doing is further enabling him with this kind of nonsense:

Guy has been a fabulous asset to this encyclopedia, hardworking, dedicated and obviously wants the best for this project.

None of that is true, of course, except maybe the "hardworking" part. His entire history is one of grandstanding, moth-to-flame attraction to high-profile drama cases, self-congratulation, and above all, revenge-mongering. And that's putting aside his willingness to be deceptive and sometimes completely dishonest in his ongoing effort to curry favor with the WP leadership. Whether or not he realizes that his main worth to them is to take on the attack-dog role is beside the point. It's probable that someone else would inevitably come along to take on that role if he were desysopped, but that doesn't mean the existence of attack-dog accounts is something people should just sit back and accept.

These WP'ers will have to stand up for what's right if they ever hope to be taken seriously as a "project," or whatever they're calling themselves. JzG is, obviously, "burned out" and needs a long "wikibreak," but it isn't because he's been spending all that time doing good. He's been spending all that time doing damage, and not just to himself, either.

I nearly posted the following over there, but decided it would be too inflamatory for an outside user to be involved. However, inbetweenies might like to take the message across:

The list of infractions is large, and in the main not disputed, and it is good to see that, though painful, there has not been any inappropriate attempt to defend inappropriate behaviour.

To me, the important issue is that the community has failed one of its own. Guy has been struggling, in public, with public criticism for a long time. The community has failed in its duty of care to its own. I place a certain amount of blame on those friends of Guy who put up words of support when his inappropriate behaviour was obvious. The toleration of inappropriate behaviour, under the guise of the ends justify the means, the good of the project, has been hurtful to Guy. To use a trite phrase, you can kill with kindness, words of support have reinforced Guy's belief that he was doing the right thing when he was not. The result is unsurprising and therefore does not reflect badly on Guy.

Solutions: Guy needs an enforced break, not something that is called a ban, nor something that is called a block. He needs to regain a proper perspective on life. Hopefully, Wikipedians who know him in the real world, can meet in the real world and offer him whatever support is needed: bring him back into the real world, with real world perspectives. As someone else noted: it is just a web site.

Wikipedians need to look to their own actions and realise that their unconditional public support for Guy in the face of inappropriate behaviour has had two consequences: the damage to the reputation of the project, and the personal damage to a member of the project. If people want to take a positive outcome from the RFC, do not focus on Guy, focus on where the community went astray. Simply put, zero tolerance of all inappropriate behaviour by admins as representatives of the project (whether you like it or not). Painful in the short term, good in the long term. And this is not personal, it is a much wider cultural problem, where well known admins are allowed to work to a lesser standard of behaviour "for the good of the project". Guy should never have been allowed to stray so far by his friends. Who will be next?

Perfectly put.

Typically, JzG dismissed the RFC as "a laundry list of Wikipedia Review members' grudges" and presumably won't comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=195304014

That's not really fair on the Wikipedians contributing to the RFC in droves to comment. If there was a real laundry list of Wikipedia Review members' grudges, it'd look a damn site more specific and aggressive than that. It'd include him lying about people, deleting people's work then recreating it in his own name, etc etc. More like this

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=13902&hl

My favorite comment so far is Doc's. Apparently, since JzG is doing the kind of work Doc approves of, his bad behavior can be completely ignored.

Way to be consistent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...or_comment/JzG2

I admire the people that have come forward trying to help Guy Chapman, JzG.

I know first hand what it takes to do an intervention for someone that refuses to admit that they have a serious problem with life; living.

Guy has some serious problems with mental and physical health, albeit he may someday surrender to the truth and win. He is bright and I suspect he is deeply loved by his family.

A break would help, but may not, in fact, change the "Guy." Sometimes it takes rehabilitation, but it always takes a miracle in the form of a spiritual transformation and an experience that is truly spiritual. The recovery does not have to happen overnight...most often it takes a long time.

Guy clearly has the "me disease" and until he understands it is not all about him, he may never recover.

In the meantime he should lose his administrator tools and learn to edit, as Durova has.
She is more of an asset to the project without the tools, right now. Humility is a good thing.

His opinions may become more widely respected if he is forced to talk rather than lecture... and without the ability to push a destruct button or two. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Once again we see a reprise of the classic drama featuring Narcissus, Echo, and Echo Canceler.

Once again we see a reprise of the classic drama featuring Narcissus, Echo, and Echo Canceler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin

and....with dozens of well respected editors coming forward to support views like the above,
I suspect this issue does not have to go, nor should it be forced to go, to the feaux law court (ArbCom.)

Someone will be bold and block JzG and that will be the end of it, if he does not respond.

Then JzG can go to ArbCom.

The community has spoken to Mr. Chapman. There is broad consensus for him to give up the tools.

All the kings horses and all the kings men cannot put JzG back together again...not even Jimbo.

Jimbo is losing his ability to have any respect of the people.

This is a good thing for Wikipedia.

This post has been edited by WhispersOfWisdom:

My favorite comment so far is Doc's. Apparently, since JzG is doing the kind of work Doc approves of, his bad behavior can be completely ignored.

Way to be consistent.

Doc Glasgow's response is exactly the dramatic response that leads Guy to believe he is doing the right thing. No doubt others are privately emailing him messages of support. I get the feeling that Doc likes his drama, and he would miss Guy for that reason, not his contributions to "the encyclopedia that Friends of Guy may edit".

Once again we see a reprise of the classic drama featuring Narcissus, Echo, and Echo Canceler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin

and....with dozens of well respected editors coming forward to support views like the above,
I suspect this issue does not have to go, nor should it be forced to go, to the feaux law court (ArbCom.)

Someone will be bold and block JzG and that will be the end of it, if he does not respond.

Then JzG can go to ArbCom.

The community has spoken to Mr. Chapman. There is broad consensus for him to give up the tools.

All the kings horses and all the kings men cannot put JzG back together again...not even Jimbo.

Jimbo is losing his ability to have any respect of the people.

This is a good thing for Wikipedia.

He won't be blocked for not responding. Wouldn't achieve anything.

He won't be blocked for not responding. Wouldn't achieve anything.

Most editors would have been blocked long ago. Same thing with the other circus going on at Arbcom.

The consensus is that JzG give up his tools, and / or simply leave WP.

He sets a very low bar for the near vigilante types at WP.

I knew JzG would eventually bring himself down.

Even Britney was finally committed...against her own devices and vices.

The JzG bullies of the world eventually self destruct, or they are taken away kicking and screaming that they are being mistreated. "You don't know who I am!" " I am MEEEE!" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

Have a look at the RfC talk page and User talk:Nick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin

^ (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif)

More editors are supporting the position that is clearly a mandate for change.

Is he open for recall?

Not that I am aware of.

JzG is the Anton Chigurh of Wikipedia. He won't change at all. He didn't change when others attempted dispute resolution with him before, and he seems more determined than ever to ignore whatever advice is given to him. He is invincible with his posse of supporters.

Say, Viridae, I never pictured you as a Tommy Lee Jones. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

JzG is the Anton Chigurh of Wikipedia. He won't change at all. He didn't change when others attempted dispute resolution with him before, and he seems more determined than ever to ignore whatever advice is given to him. He is invincible with his posse of supporters.

Say, Viridae, I never pictured you as a Tommy Lee Jones. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

Haha - thats really Cla68's role I am assuming. (now I am going to have to watch that movie)

Haha - thats really Cla68's role I am assuming. (now I am going to have to watch that movie)

Me too.

Is there anyone on WP that JzG trusts wholeheartedly who would be able to convince him to sin no more? Or is he pretty much beyond all hope at this point?

Haha - thats really Cla68's role I am assuming. (now I am going to have to watch that movie)

Me too.

Is there anyone on WP that JzG trusts wholeheartedly who would be able to convince him to sin no more? Or is he pretty much beyond all hope at this point?

I havent seen any evidence of such a person.

Well, Jimbo would probably be able to, but then someone would have to convince him that Guy is actually doing something wrong...

Fresh off the talk page presses! Apparently, I'm a hypocrite because people who respond to absolutely everything with an irrelevant two sentence comment eventually tick me off. Until I am completely saintly under all circumstances, I may not complain about people who tell others to "fuck off".

Oh, and I'm told nobody cares about me. I feel so unloved.

This post has been edited by Amarkov:

Fresh off the talk page presses! Apparently, I'm a hypocrite because people who respond to absolutely everything with an irrelevant two sentence comment eventually tick me off. Until I am completely saintly under all circumstances, I may not complain about people who tell others to "fuck off".

Oh, and I'm told nobody cares about me. I feel so unloved.

Nobody cares. Fuck off.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

Fresh off the talk page presses! Apparently, I'm a hypocrite because people who respond to absolutely everything with an irrelevant two sentence comment eventually tick me off. Until I am completely saintly under all circumstances, I may not complain about people who tell others to "fuck off".

Oh, and I'm told nobody cares about me. I feel so unloved.

Nobody cares. Fuck off.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif)

What an auspicious start. Welcome to WR.

What an auspicious start. Welcome to WR.

At least he took the trouble to add that "winky" emoticon... Besides, everybody loves Amarkov. More than Raymond, in fact!

What an auspicious start. Welcome to WR.

At least he took the trouble to add that "winky" emoticon... Besides, everybody loves Amarkov. More than Raymond, in fact!

Actually, I have no beef with Amarkov... His post was just begging the snark I would never forgive myself for not dealing... Sorry if I've offended anybody! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, thanks for the welcome!

Have a look at the RfC talk page and User talk:Nick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...or_comment/JzG2

It appears that Nick would rather play a George Bush role and maintain that there are weapons of mass destruction even in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin

This post has been edited by WhispersOfWisdom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._Kirill_Lokshin
Correct link to Kirill's comment

This post has been edited by WhispersOfWisdom:

Well, Jimbo would probably be able to, but then someone would have to convince him that Guy is actually doing something wrong...

Hasn't this already been done?

Time for JzG's third RFC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...r_comment/JzG_3

Time for JzG's third RFC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...r_comment/JzG_3

That one isen't serious though.

Time for JzG's third RFC!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...r_comment/JzG_3

That one isen't serious though.

Oh, I know. But from what I've seen, whenever another RFC follows an RFC on the same person, accusations of "trolling" and "harassment" emerge and nullify the effects of both.

Hopefully, this won't happen to RFC/JzG2, but you never know.

Actually, I really think JzG's behavior has significantly improved over the last 90 minutes or so. If he can build on that, use this past 90 minutes as a foundation for the future, and maybe join a "mentoring" program with someone like User:Durova to guide him in how to best use Wikipedia constructively, there may be some hope for him after all! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smiling.gif)

Ah, the audacity of hope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...or_comment/JzG2

It is starting now?

Ah, Guy has finally replied - however, he's too much of a chickenshit to post his own reply, so he got Lar to do it for him. What a fucking pussy. Too bad his claims toward improved behavior are totally disclaimed by his dipshit behavior just yesterday, where, in response to a question from Dan Tobias, he created the the page [[User Jzg/Lines]], where he called Dan a "troll" 100 times. Nice work, jackass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG/RfC

This post has been edited by Bob Boy:

The ending of that statement is funny.

Feel free to leave me any constructive comments about how I could have handled something better.

Well, maybe if he didn't define all comments by people you don't like as unconstructive, he'd get more constructive comments. Too bad that statement would be defined as an unconstructive comment, or I'd tell him.

JzG's response contains the usual wild reductions of complex issues, typical blurring of reality to score points against "enemies", pleas for forgiveness, feeble excuses etc etc.

The bottom line is he lost control and has lied continuously to bully his way out of self inflicted mess after self inflicted mess.

And underlying this is the fact that I am in my mid-40s, married, with children aged 11 and 13; any readers of this comment who are themselves parents of teenaged or grown children will probably understand the temptation to behave like a parent when people behave like your kids.

If JzG speaks to his kids the way he speaks to people on Wikipedia, he is in deep trouble.

JzG's response contains the usual wild reductions of complex issues, typical blurring of reality to score points against "enemies", pleas for forgiveness, feeble excuses etc etc.

The bottom line is he lost control and has lied continuously to bully his way out of self inflicted mess after self inflicted mess.

And underlying this is the fact that I am in my mid-40s, married, with children aged 11 and 13; any readers of this comment who are themselves parents of teenaged or grown children will probably understand the temptation to behave like a parent when people behave like your kids.

If JzG speaks to his kids the way he speaks to people on Wikipedia, he is in deep trouble.

He insists that telling people to "fuck off" is just fine in Britain. I suppose he could be living in some strange town, but I think it's much more likely that he's just isolated from reality.

He insists that telling people to "fuck off" is just fine in Britain. I suppose he could be living in some strange town, but I think it's much more likely that he's just isolated from reality.

I can see what he's saying there and he's part correct, but it isn't any excuse for the onslaught of mischaracterisations, half-truths and outright lies he offloads on his victims. And besides, when was the last time Charles Matthews told someone to "fuck off" on Wikipedia?

JzG just isn't experienced, he's not smart, he's totally unreconstructed, he's in the wrong game, he's caused untold problems to Wikipedia.

(PS. Note how he steers clear of the usual "Judd Bagley is a vicious troll who is attacking me" theme. No doubt even JzG has realized that he got it completely wrong as usual. An apology to the appropriate party(s) would be nice?)

And Newyorkbrad wonders why I and others here don't try to fix things "on wiki."

With administrators like JzG, who needs enemies on Wikipedia?

He insists that telling people to "fuck off" is just fine in Britain. I suppose he could be living in some strange town, but I think it's much more likely that he's just isolated from reality.

It is as it is in America: perfectly acceptable when out drinking with friends, unacceptable in a civilized discourse with strangers.

It's true that "cunt" doesn't carry the same level of offense in the UK as it does in the States, but I would guess this to be more a taboo induced by American feminist sociopolitical hysteria (why is "dick" less bad?) than a sign of British laxity. It is certainly rude.

No doubt even JzG has realized that he got it completely wrong as usual. An apology to the appropriate party(s) would be nice?)

Why should he apologize, when the Arbitrators won't?

Anyhow, this just leapt out at me from JzG's response.:

"If I think that a user does not understand what they are doing wrong, then I may block them with no expiry time, because the disruption will only cease when a human has reviewed their response and noted that they understand the problem.

But

I have not commented there, and have no intention of reading it.

By JzG's own logic, he should be blocked indefinitely.

By JzG's own logic, he should be blocked indefinitely.

By the sheer scale of his misbehavior, he should be blocked indefinitely. This year, JzG became the user who has caused the most problems on Wikipedia. He overtook a number of previous holders of that position. The litany of JzG's antics, that range from merely telling others to "fuck off", to standing on the rooftops and goading the media when all the while being wrong, is extraordinary. JzG's outrageous nonsense over the last 18 months continues to cause massive problems as evidenced by the Amorrow business recently.

He lost all credibility (and marbles) long ago, and it was downhill from there on. Thankfully for us critics, he was someone of such ignorance and hubris he managed to take Wikipedia down with him. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

"If I think that a user does not understand what they are doing wrong, then I may block them with no expiry time, because the disruption will only cease when a human has reviewed their response and noted that they understand the problem.

But

I have not commented there, and have no intention of reading it.

By JzG's own logic, he should be blocked indefinitely.

Indeed. Hypocrisy is nothing new for JzG, obviously. He's defending Wikipedia from thousands of banned trolls. You can't expect him to play by his own rules when faced with that kind of challenge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...or_comment/JzG2

It is starting now?

Ah, Guy has finally replied - however, he's too much of a chickenshit to post his own reply, so he got Lar to do it for him. What a fucking pussy. Too bad his claims toward improved behavior are totally disclaimed by his dipshit behavior just yesterday, where, in response to a question from Dan Tobias, he created the the page [[User Jzg/Lines]], where he called Dan a "troll" 100 times. Nice work, jackass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG/RfC

Can you be more specific with that one please? No such page, nor has [[User:Jzg/Lines]] ever existed.

Edit: yes it did: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...=20080325141252

This post has been edited by Viridae:

Too bad his claims toward improved behavior are totally disclaimed by his dipshit behavior just yesterday, where, in response to a question from Dan Tobias, he created the the page [[User Jzg/Lines]], where he called Dan a "troll" 100 times.

Luckily, Dan's got a thick skin - thicker than JzG's, certainly. I doubt he'll respond with anything beyond casual amusement, unless of course JzG "top-posted" it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Luckily, Dan's got a thick skin - thicker than JzG's, certainly. I doubt he'll respond with anything beyond casual amusement, unless of course JzG "top-posted" it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Or set up a .com domain to host it when it belongs properly in .org or .info.

Too bad his claims toward improved behavior are totally disclaimed by his dipshit behavior just yesterday, where, in response to a question from Dan Tobias, he created the the page [[User Jzg/Lines]], where he called Dan a "troll" 100 times.

Luckily, Dan's got a thick skin - thicker than JzG's, certainly. I doubt he'll respond with anything beyond casual amusement, unless of course JzG "top-posted" it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Wuts top posting? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

Wuts top posting? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/top-posting.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Those quoted snippets from JzG come across as arrogant, in the sense of hubris in a flawed character in a Greek tragedy.

It's not a hard prediction to make, that JzG will undergo a shreklisch drama parallel in structure to a classic Greek tragedy.

As to when he will sing the dithyramb is anyone's guess.

This post has been edited by Moulton:

that JzG will undergo a shreklisch drama

I liked Shrek.

So when is this getting moved to ArbCom, exactly?

Well, here's a little more hypocrisy for you - Guy has previously used the power of the block button in an attempt to force a user to participate in a Request for Comment. Maybe it would appropriate if someone turned this around and blocked him until he agreed to participate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BenH#RfC_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...or_comment/BenH

So when is this getting moved to ArbCom, exactly?

If it did go to ArbCom, how do you think the accept/reject votes would go? It sounds like Kirill and FT2, at least, have had enough of Guy.

This has already gone to ArbCom. They are supposed to look into his behavior, among other things, in the 9/11 case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...eories/Workshop

arbcom isn't going to do a damn thing about JzG. He, like Weiss, is useful to Jimbo in that he is either useful to, or can't be made an example of due to its repercussions against Jimbo's Jedi's.

and Arbcom is Jimbo. The spineless weasels on it pretending to be independent of jimbo are blowing smoke up the asses of honest wikipedians.

it was a mistake to take Mantanmoreland up to Arbcom, as the community should have been able to ban him before that even happened, and the same with JzG.

If you are going to take abusive Friends of Gerard/Slim/Thatch/Jayyg/etc to arbcom, you are wasting your time and Wikipedia's time. Take it to the commmunity, ban them if a vast majority or WP'ians chime in to ban them, and let a Ban Review sort it out if compromised assholes try to unban them.

This post has been edited by Piperdown:

Interesting take on ignoring RfC's from the Abu badali arbitration case...Abu badali also did not reply on the RfC page, he replied elsewhere...and gave pretty much the exact same reasons for doing so that Guy does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...sts_for_comment

(Note that Newyorkbrad is the one criticizing him for not responding on the RfC page.) Unlike Guy's RfC page, Abu badali's RfC really was chock-full of lies, trolling, and attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ment/Abu_badali

Despite the justifications given by Abu badali, the ArbComm still overwhelmingly determined that Abu badali had "ignored and completely failed to respond to the RfC". It also affirmed the importance of RfCs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ion#RfC_ignored
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...sts_for_comment

Also see this comment by Newyorkbrad concerning ignoring the RfC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=142029075

This post has been edited by Bob Boy:

JzG has taken the hint that he needs to acknowledge the problems. His odd way on his user talk sub-page is actually a pretty big climb down. I'm all for saving face if it achieves a solution, and not a great one for kicking someone when they are down (except if they are in the process of getting up to start attacking again!). I do think it is inappropriate that he pretends that the RFC does not exist but responds to it. Bonkers, really, but so be it. I think that is because he knows it is indefensible.

He has said, begrudgingly, that there is a case to answer, and begrudgingly he has said he is trying to reform, and indeed, he even admits it is his problem, although somewhat qualified.

They should record that on the RFC as a one last chance. Then the next time he is over the mark, which most people will assume will be very soon, he will have nowhere to go, but more importantly, his apologists should have nowhere to go - and it is they who are the bigger problem.

I was rather pleased though, that Guy has picked up the feedback loop issue of IRC. As Greg picked up - the best way to solve a feedback loop is to disconnect it at the Jimbo!

I hadn't noticed this before. Guy is more aware than we give him credit for.