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Jayjg's war on charts and graphs, they violate WP:SYNTH |
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Milton Roe |
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Known alias of J. Random Troll
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QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 2:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]Can I guess without knowing? There's some graph of US spending to support Israel, or the average income of Palastinians or something, that Jayjg really doesn't like the look of. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/yecch.gif)
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Doc glasgow |
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Wikipedia:The Sump of All Human Knowledge
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QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 17th March 2009, 10:31pm) QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]So he can proactively keep things like this excluded from Wikipedia ? Why, oh why, can't this be GFDL?
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Milton Roe |
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QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:08pm) QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 17th March 2009, 10:31pm) QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]So he can proactively keep things like this excluded from Wikipedia ? Why, oh why, can't this be GFDL? There you go. Isn't it amazing how well you can predict how and where the WP system will be gamed, once you know who is doing it and why?
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GlassBeadGame |
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Dharma Bum
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 17th March 2009, 5:11pm) QUOTE(Doc glasgow @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:08pm) QUOTE(TungstenCarbide @ Tue 17th March 2009, 10:31pm) QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]So he can proactively keep things like this excluded from Wikipedia ? Why, oh why, can't this be GFDL? There you go. Isn't it amazing how well you can predict how and where the WP system will be gamed, once you know who is doing it and why? Programs... Get your WR programs.... Can't tell the players without a program. Score cards... WR score cards...We got score cards, too.
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Cla68 |
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QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]Jayjg's "per talk" comment is evidently referring to this discussion. One of the participants in that discussion (SV), is a member here so perhaps she could explain the rationale behind the opposition to user-created graphs. Here is a user-created graph from the Global Warming article. Is this a violation of NOR?
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Jon Awbrey |
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Ï„á½° δΠμοι παθήματα μαθήματα γÎγονε
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Milton Roe |
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QUOTE(Cla68 @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:22pm) QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]Jayjg's "per talk" comment is evidently referring to this discussion. One of the participants in that discussion (SV), is a member here so perhaps she could explain the rationale behind the opposition to user-created graphs. Here is a user-created graph from the Global Warming article. Is this a violation of NOR? The fun part is the Jayjg are Slim are castigating these guys for adding this little bit about graphs without any kind of consensus, when they know very well that the policies arose in 2004-5 when "consensus" consisted of things like SlimVirgin adding stuff about how newspapers can be trusted as reliable sources (something she added all across all the other RS,V articles), and a bunch of other policy, and they protecting it with tag teaming and whatever else it took. Now, 5 years later, it's "consensus" because it's been there so long. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/yak.gif) And don't you dare change it, like we did routinely 4 years ago, you young whippersnapper! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif)
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Jon Awbrey |
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Ï„á½° δΠμοι παθήματα μαθήματα γÎγονε
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 17th March 2009, 7:41pm) The fun part is the Jayjg are Slim are castigating these guys for adding this little bit about graphs without any kind of consensus, when they know very well that the policies arose in 2004-5 when "consensus" consisted of things like SlimVirgin adding stuff about how newspapers can be trusted as reliable sources (something she added all across all the other RS,V articles), and a bunch of other policy, and they protecting it with tag teaming and whatever else it took. Now, 5 years later, it's "consensus" because it's been there so long. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/yak.gif) And don't you dare change it, like we did routinely 4 years ago, you young whippersnapper! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif) Not to mention a perfect example of Slimey rewriting a whole page off-line and then pasting it whole hog in one foul swoop, so no one will notice the poison pea under all her mattresses. Later on she would learn to combine these paste-up jobs with paragraph and subsection permutations — the Wiki-Patented SlimVirgin Castling Manurever — that made it damn near impossible to track what actually happened. Jon (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)
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Cla68 |
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Tue 17th March 2009, 11:41pm) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:22pm) QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 17th March 2009, 9:07pm) For extra points, why, oh why, would Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
have such a problem with allowing people to create charts and graphs to include in Wikipedia? I mean, there's this lovely one on the weather in Paris, this one of the Munich population, or even this lovely graphic of orbits. [Hint: I know the answer. I'll post in a few days if no one rises to the bait.]Jayjg's "per talk" comment is evidently referring to this discussion. One of the participants in that discussion (SV), is a member here so perhaps she could explain the rationale behind the opposition to user-created graphs. Here is a user-created graph from the Global Warming article. Is this a violation of NOR? The fun part is the Jayjg are Slim are castigating these guys for adding this little bit about graphs without any kind of consensus, when they know very well that the policies arose in 2004-5 when "consensus" consisted of things like SlimVirgin adding stuff about how newspapers can be trusted as reliable sources (something she added all across all the other RS,V articles), and a bunch of other policy, and they protecting it with tag teaming and whatever else it took. Now, 5 years later, it's "consensus" because it's been there so long. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/yak.gif) And don't you dare change it, like we did routinely 4 years ago, you young whippersnapper! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/mad.gif) If someone were to manually, or using a bot, go around and tag all user-generated graphs for deletion, citing the NOR policy, all hades would break loose. I'm fairly sure the dedicated team that protects the Global Warming article wouldn't be too happy. Speaking of original research with an image file, look at this. The background here is that I added some new information to this article based on some news reports that came out today. Since the edit did not necessarily reflect favorably on the nation of Iran, I placed the article on my watchlist, because I've found that edits that say anything negative about Iran often don't stay around very long. Sure enough, the information was removed about 15 minutes later. I had to laugh when I saw the same editor add that picture that he drew. Notice in the image file that he doesn't give a source as to where he got the information he's supposedly basing his drawing on. This post has been edited by Cla68:
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thekohser |
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 18th March 2009, 10:43am) QUOTE(Cla68 @ Tue 17th March 2009, 4:22pm) Here is a user-created graph from the Global Warming article. Is this a violation of NOR? Oddly enough, in this case, yes, it's a textbook case of SYNTH. The graph shows measurements of CO2 at Mauna Loa, the world's largest active volcano, which is a real CO2 factory. Yet in the Global Warning article, the graph is placed in such a way as to suggest that it corroborates claims of a big man-made contribution to CO2 levels. I would object to the use of "310" as the anchor point for the y-axis. The chart might imply something much different to the casual observer if, for example, the scale was fixed at zero.
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gadfly |
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QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 18th March 2009, 3:18pm) I would object to the use of "310" as the anchor point for the y-axis. The chart might imply something much different to the casual observer if, for example, the scale was fixed at zero.
This is one reason why graphs should be treated with extreme care, and may well be only justifiably used on wikipedia if they are re-drawn copies of graphs already produced elsewhere. There are real and sometimes substantial cognitive and perceptual issues that affect the comprehension of the information the graphs are expected to transmit to the readers. Various sources within the psychological literature have confirmed many times that the form of presentation has a large influence (books by Edward Tufte show some examples of these kinds of presentational effects). It may well be that Jayjg has a point, but one must deal with the matter separately for each use. It is another instance in which the overall wikipedia interpretation of consensus leads to sub-optimal results. This post has been edited by gadfly:
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gomi |
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Glad to see this has piqued some curiosity. For those who haven't gone to the talk page of the relevant "policy", the back-and-forth between Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D)
and CBMÂ (T-C-L-K-R-D)
here is gut-bustingly funny (or pathetic, if one takes a kinder view of WP). It is a sterling example of Jayjg's willingness to argue completely outside the realm of reasonability. As a side note, it is also a good example of SlimVirgin (T-C-L-K-R-D)
proxying for Jayjg -- she doesn't have a dog in this fight, but she's in there anyway, or was, at the beginning.
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