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_ General Discussion _ 50 Ways that connect Wikia/Wikimedia

Posted by: Kato

Inspired by a combination of this template :

Image

hastily http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=15635 to clarify a confusion recently...

...and Greg's long held contradictory assertion that there is a "http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20070821/the-tight-knit-web-of-wikimedia-and-wikia/", which implies by deduction that there is a private company http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20080121/2007-at-the-review-the-unvarnished-truth-the-red-pill/...

...I want to see if we can come up with 50 similarities or connections between the "voluntary" Wikimedia (Wikipedia / Commons etc) and the "for profit" Wikia Inc.. I'll set the ball rolling with a couple of easy ones, and future proposals in the thread can be added to this top post.*


50 Ways that Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation and Wikia, Inc. are not 'entirely separate entities'.

  1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimbo_Wales was a co-founder of Wikipedia and a co-founder of Wikia Inc.
  2. Jimbo Wales http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Jimbo_Wikimania_2007_Wikia_presentation.jpg, a Wikimedia Meet-Up funded by donors to the Wikimedia Foundation.
  3. In 2009, http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ WMF's Daniel Phelps "collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer". The WMF write "Wikia has been doing intensive work on the usability front and making the code available to public, so I look forward to collaborating with the Wikia technical and product teams to exchange ideas and learn from their work"
  4. It http://wikipediareview.com/blog/20071127/time-to-change-public-opinion-of-wikipedia/ that Wikia, Inc. was hosting a secret mailing list comprised exclusively of hand-picked Wikipedia administrators and certain representatives of the Foundation, including Wikipedia co-founder himself, Jimmy Wales.
  5. http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Image:WM2006_0068.jpg a past business partner of Jimmy Wales, served on the Wikimedia Foundation Board and as WMF Treasurer, also becoming Treasurer and Secretary of Wikia Inc. in 2006.
  6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Beesley was on the board of trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation when she co-founded Wikia Inc. in 2004. As well as being vice president of Wikia Inc. she remains a member of the Communications Committee of the Wikimedia Foundation. She also chairs the Foundation's Advisory Board.
  7. Wikia, Inc. hired http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay in January 2007. Jimmy Wales then without debate installed him onto the Wikipedia's most visible chamber of dispute resolution, the Arbitration committee in February 2007. (Wales later blamed this misadventure on the "unanimous" support of the ArbCom for the appointment.)
  8. External links to Wikia (in the "interwiki" format) were exempt from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nofollow" decree issued by Jimmy Wales, which Wales later denied he issued, but Brion Vibber made clear was Wales' decree.
  9. There are over 11,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Wikia.com pages. As recently as 16 months ago, this number was 3,400, so the problem is growing at a faster rate than actual Wikipedia pages.
  10. There are over 150,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Amazon.com and IMDB.com (owned by Amazon) pages. Amazon is the leading financial investor in Wikia, Inc.
  11. WMF's Form 990 from 2005 (Line 80) clearly states that the WMF is "related... through common membership, governing bodies, trustees, officers, etc., to any other exempt or non-exempt organization", and typed in bright black letters, that non-exempt organization is listed as Wikia, Inc. ("This is why it is so hilarious that Alison Wheeler says this "is a matter of *law*" -- indeed, it is. The only form that the WMF is legally obligated to file is Form 990, and it says that there *is* a related commonality between the WMF and Wikia Inc. Alison obviously has no clue what she's talking about!" TheKohsher)
  12. Angela Beesley, vice president of Wikia Inc. http://wikidashboard.parc.com/wiki/Wikia the Wikipedia article about Wikia, Inc. as User:Angela.
  13. Jimmy Wales offered that Wikia Inc. could be a "testing ground" for the highlighted edits that was proposed at last Wikimania.
  14. Angela Beesley, vice president of Wikia Inc. has been caught http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikie...ary/089434.html and authors who've been deleted/rejected by Wikipedia, so that they can be reconstituted on Wikia.com.
  15. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29&diff=prev&oldid=175064490 created by volunteers from Wikipedia to Wikia Inc. "for-profit" sites. In other words, removing articles from Wikipedia and placing them on Wikia's Wikis. A link is then provided on Wikipedia to the new for-profit Wiki.
  16. In 2005 Jimbo Wales http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB111196673261990485-5REIoCsSFxd8Lo3uxapqIxxthR0_20050426.html he hoped to use the money raised by Wikia "to support his nonprofit Wikimedia Foundation Inc., which funds Wikipedia and other smaller projects."
  17. Tim Starling worked for Wikia Inc. before being employed by the Wikimedia Foundation.
  18. Brad Patrick worked for Wikia Inc.before being employed by the Wikimedia Foundation.
  19. Kat Walsh was employed by Wikia Inc. before joining Wikimedia's Board of Trustees.
  20. Wikia Inc.'s "http://www.wikia.com/wiki/About_Wikia" page states that
    "Wikia's staff members have over 60 years Wikipedia experience among them."
  21. Jimmy Wales has threatened legal action against another wiki-related site, by e-mailing its owner "I do not remember you executing a trademark agreement with the Wikimedia Foundation to allow you to use our name in commerce. I am now blocking your <Wikipedia> account." The email was sent from jwales@wikia.com, to communicate what Wales could only have thought constituted official Wikimedia Foundation legal action.
  22. Google is so convinced that someone typing "Wikia" actually means "Wikipedia", searches for pairs of words containing the word "Wikia" will return results pointing to Wikipedia. Examples: "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+reference", "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+links", or "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+funding", and notice the word "Wikipedia" returned in bold in many of the top results.
  23. See http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=15648&view=findpost&p=77836 - Related Party Transactions: "The Organization shares hosting and bandwidth costs with Wikia, Inc., a for-profit company founded by the same founder as Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. Included in accounts receivable at June 30, 2007 is $6,000 due from Wikia, Inc. for these costs. The Organization received some donated office space from Wikia Inc. during the year ended June 30, 2006 valued at $6,000. No donation of the office space occurred in 2007. Through June 30, 2007, two members of the Organization’s board of directors also serve as employees, officers, or directors of Wikia, Inc."
  24. A Wikipedia template that tried to show separation of the two organizations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_February_5#Template:Wikia_is_not_Wikipedia.
  25. According to Wikipedia in February 2008, "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikia&diff=19508026&oldid=19507601". A point first noted on the "Wikia" article in 2005, and which has remained unchallenged in the article ever since.



* dynamic list based on future claims and queries

Posted by: Robster

No numbers, just questions:

Doesn't Wikia host mailing lists for WMF?
Wasn't Angela Beesley a WMF leader and co-founder (for now) of Wikia?

Posted by: Castle Rock

Didn't Michael Davis, a past business partner of Jimmy Wales, serve on the Wikimedia Foundation Board and as Treasurer and also become Treasurer and Secretary of Wikia in 2006?

Posted by: Derktar

http://www.wikia.com/wiki/About_Wikia
Promotion & Advertising: Michael Davis

Their about us page is pretty helpful.

I'm sure Mr. Kohs can list much more though.

Posted by: Achromatic

QUOTE(Castle Rock @ Tue 5th February 2008, 5:49pm) *

Didn't Michael Davis, a past business partner of Jimmy Wales, serve on the Wikimedia Foundation Board and as Treasurer and also become Treasurer and Secretary of Wikia in 2006?


Of course he did - but Alison Wheeler was careful to delete that detail before applying her "NOT TO BE TOUCHING, PEON!" template to the Wikia page.

Posted by: thekohser

First off, the title of this thread is confusing. Should say "50 Ways that Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation and Wikia, Inc. are Not 'entirely separate entities'".

You should add these gems to the master list:

* External links to Wikia (in the "interwiki" format) were exempt from "nofollow" decree issued by Jimmy Wales, which Wales later denied he issued, but Brion Vibber made clear was Wales' decree.

* There are over 11,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Wikia.com pages. As recently as 16 months ago, this number was 3,400, so the problem is growing at a faster rate than actual Wikipedia pages.

* There are over 150,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Amazon.com and IMDB.com (owned by Amazon) pages. Amazon is the leading financial investor in Wikia, Inc.

* Wikia, Inc. hired Essjay in January 2007, and Jimmy Wales appointed him (without community vote) to Wikipedia ArbCom in February 2007. (Wales later blamed this misadventure on the "unanimous" support of the ArbCom for the appointment.)

* WMF's Form 990 from 2005 (Line 80) clearly states that the WMF is "related... through common membership, governing bodies, trustees, officers, etc., to any other exempt or non-exempt organization", and typed in bright black letters, that non-exempt organization is listed as Wikia, Inc. (This is why it is so hilarious that Alison Wheeler says this "is a matter of *law*" -- indeed, it is. The only form that the WMF is legally obligated to file is Form 990, and it says that there *is* a related commonality between the WMF and Wikia. Alison obviously has no clue what she's talking about!)

* Angela Beesley regularly edits the Wikipedia article about Wikia, Inc.

* Angela Beesley has been caught trying to "save" articles and authors who've been deleted/rejected by Wikipedia, so that they can be reconstituted on Wikia.com.

* Jimmy Wales offered that Wikia could be a "testing ground" for the highlighted edits thingy that was proposed at last Wikimania.

Keep the ball rolling, folks!


Posted by: Kato

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 6th February 2008, 8:26am) *

First off, the title of this thread is confusing. Should say "50 Ways that Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation and Wikia, Inc. are Not 'entirely separate entities'".

Oops! good spot. I always get these various bodies mixed up. Silly me. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Moulton

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 6th February 2008, 3:26am) *
There are over 150,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Amazon.com and IMDB.com (owned by Amazon) pages. Amazon is the leading financial investor in Wikia, Inc.

This item supports the view that Wikipedia is, de facto, the Internet's dominant compendium of popular culture. Amazon.Com is the Internet's leading purveyor of retail units of that popular culture.

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Moulton @ Wed 6th February 2008, 10:02am) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 6th February 2008, 3:26am) *
There are over 150,000 external links from English Wikipedia pages to Amazon.com and IMDB.com (owned by Amazon) pages. Amazon is the leading financial investor in Wikia, Inc.

This item supports the view that Wikipedia is, de facto, the Internet's dominant compendium of popular culture. Amazon.Com is the Internet's leading purveyor of retail units of that popular culture.


Linking to a book seller in support of a references never seemed a very encyclopedic practice to me. Better to simply give the ISBN number without a link. It seems a part of Wikipedia's entrenched bias of giving disproportionate weight to material on the internet.

Posted by: anthony

I don't think any of these are current, but...Brad Patrick, Tim Starling, River Tarnell.

Posted by: thekohser

I think I have two more for the list.

* Wikia's "http://www.wikia.com/wiki/About_Wikia" page says:

"Wikia's staff members have over 60 years Wikipedia experience among them."

...even though Jimmy Wales has threatened legal action against another wiki-related site, by e-mailing its owner:

QUOTE
I do not remember you executing a trademark agreement with the Wikimedia Foundation to allow you to use our name in commerce. I am now blocking your <Wikipedia> account.




* That threatening e-mail was sent from jwales@wikia.com, to communicate what Wales could only have thought constituted official Wikimedia Foundation legal action.

Posted by: Jonny Cache

Tool for checking links between domains:

http://www.domaintools.com/

For example:

http://www.domaintools.com/enwikipedia/wikipediareview.com

Jonny cool.gif

Posted by: thekohser

QUOTE(Jonny Cache @ Thu 7th February 2008, 4:45am) *

Tool for checking links between domains:

http://www.domaintools.com/

For example:

http://www.domaintools.com/enwikipedia/wikipediareview.com

Jonny cool.gif


Cool tool, Jonny, but it doesn't seem to be fully accounting for all links. A few domains that I checked were coming up about 30% - 60% short, at least for English Wikipedia. Nonetheless, I've bookmarked it. Thank you!

Posted by: thekohser

QUOTE(anthony @ Wed 6th February 2008, 6:12pm) *

I don't think any of these are current, but...Brad Patrick, Tim Starling, River Tarnell.


Who is this "River Tarnell", and why wasn't it placed in the master thread list?

Greg

Posted by: thekohser

* Google is so convinced that someone typing "Wikia" actually means "Wikipedia", searches for pairs of words containing the word "Wikia" will return results pointing to Wikipedia.

Examples: "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+reference", "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+links", or "http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS231US231&q=wikia+funding", and notice the word "Wikipedia" returned in bold in many of the top results.

Posted by: thekohser

The http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/4/49/Wikimedia_2007_fs.pdf confirms:

QUOTE
Note E - Related Party Transactions

The Organization shares hosting and bandwidth costs with
Wikia, Inc., a for-profit company founded by the same
founder as Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. Included in accounts
receivable at June 30, 2007 is $6,000 due from Wikia, Inc.
for these costs. The Organization received some donated
office space from Wikia Inc. during the year ended June 30,
2006 valued at $6,000. No donation of the office space
occurred in 2007.

Through June 30, 2007, two members of the Organization’s
board of directors also serve as employees, officers, or
directors of Wikia, Inc.

Posted by: thekohser

You might want to hyperlink List Item # 13 to this:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2008-February/089434.html

I'm not saying what Beesley does is horrible -- just don't trumpet to me that there's "no relationship" between Wikipedia and Wikia, when the WMF Advisory Board Chair is all gung ho about how Wikia is a wonderful place to "save" non-notable Wikipedia articles.

If the article is about a legal entity, save them to Wikipedia Review, folks -- slap your own Google AdSense ads on the article, and you have a lifelong revenue stream (until the actual legal representative takes over the article).

Posted by: badlydrawnjeff

Be careful with a list like this, though: That Jimbo co-founded Wikipedia and co-founded Wikia does not actually produce a relationship between Wikipedia and Wikia. You're better off sticking to more reasonable things, such as the nofollow links and the mailing list.

That Jimbo a) finds value in Wiki software and b) trusts people that he knows from one project to work for another isn't evidence of an actual link.

* administrative edit: removed annoying emoticons - Nathan

Posted by: anthony

QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 7th February 2008, 6:51pm) *

QUOTE(anthony @ Wed 6th February 2008, 6:12pm) *

I don't think any of these are current, but...Brad Patrick, Tim Starling, River Tarnell.


Who is this "River Tarnell", and why wasn't it placed in the master thread list?

Greg


River Tarnell is Kate Turner is User:Kate. (Former?) Wikimedia developer (with root access to Wikipedia's servers), (former?) Wikipedia admin, (former?) Wikia system administrator. Ran for the board on the platform of "disowning or shutting down all Wikimedia projects except Wikipedia". I couldn't find much more information.

EDIT: Also, (former?) member of private-l

Posted by: anthony

Jason Richey, (former?) employee of Bomis, (former?) CTO of Wikia, (former?) member of private-l, (former?) root access on Wikipedia's servers.

Posted by: anthony

Lisa Carter, administrator, former arbitrator, communications committee member, Wikia employee, (former?) member of private-l

Maybe these three (probably more) could just be combined into a line about private-l, a "private" mailing list "where the [Wikimedia] developers can discuss things that might be sensitive security issues". As of 8/19/05, just after Erik Moeller sent the list a sensitive report (under an NDA) on Wikipedia's discussions with Google "concern[ing] Google's business strategies", it had only 14 members but included Jimmy Wales, Angela Beesley, Jason Richey, Kate Turner, Lisa Carter, and Tim Starling (all mentioned as affiliated with Wikia). When was Wikia Search (the "Google killer") invented, again?

Posted by: Kato

Can someone provide a summary for the above points made by Anthony. So we can add them to the list. It is all a bit vague and blurry for me at the moment.

Posted by: thekohser

For the historical record, the "Wikia is not Wikipedia" template was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_February_5#Template:Wikia_is_not_Wikipedia.

That might even go on our list.

* A Wikipedia template that tried to show separation of the two organizations met with almost historic opposition.


Posted by: Robert Roberts

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 13th February 2008, 5:21am) *

For the historical record, the "Wikia is not Wikipedia" template was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2008_February_5#Template:Wikia_is_not_Wikipedia.

That might even go on our list.

* A Wikipedia template that tried to show separation of the two organizations met with almost historic opposition.



But Alison tried to sneak something similar in -

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikia&diff=191027854&oldid=190961728

Posted by: Error59

Another (word for word from the Wikipedia article) -

Wikia covers a broad range of topics; most widely scoped community projects are accepted, with the exception of ideas that compete with the Wikimedia Foundation's projects.

If there was no connection, why would they need to self-regulate in this manner?

Posted by: thekohser

QUOTE(Error59 @ Wed 13th February 2008, 7:32am) *

Another (word for word from the Wikipedia article) -

Wikia covers a broad range of topics; most widely scoped community projects are accepted, with the exception of ideas that compete with the Wikimedia Foundation's projects.

If there was no connection, why would they need to self-regulate in this manner?


Plus, how do they actually determine these exceptions? A few of the most popular wikias are about Star Trek, the Muppets, and Star Wars. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't address these subjects?

Greg

Posted by: Error59

QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 13th February 2008, 1:48pm) *

QUOTE(Error59 @ Wed 13th February 2008, 7:32am) *

Another (word for word from the Wikipedia article) -

Wikia covers a broad range of topics; most widely scoped community projects are accepted, with the exception of ideas that compete with the Wikimedia Foundation's projects.

If there was no connection, why would they need to self-regulate in this manner?


Plus, how do they actually determine these exceptions? A few of the most popular wikias are about Star Trek, the Muppets, and Star Wars. The Wikimedia Foundation doesn't address these subjects?

Greg


I think they mean that they would not accept a general encyclopedia on Wikia, or a dictionary, or a news wiki (as these would all compete with WMF projects). This would be understandable if it were openly admitted the WMF and Wikia were connected, but don't do that and then claim there's no link between the WMF and Wikia.

Posted by: guy

And they can't accept anything that might be construed as paedophile. Is that in competition with Wikipedia?

Posted by: Kato

The Wikimedia Foundation Form 990 for fiscal year 2007 is available now. WMF have released a statement in the form of a Q&A which relates to the "partnership" between Wikia and WMF.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Form_2006_Questions_and_Answers

QUOTE(Q/A for Form 990 @ fiscal year ending June 30, 2007)

What is the $6000 for accounts receivable from Wikia? Is this money they owe you?

For the relevant period of this return, the fiscal year that ended in 2006, we included $6000 in accounts receivable from Wikia. For a brief time the Foundation and Wikia shared some office space and other resources. That $6000 reflects the amount we collected from Wikia as part of the resource sharing we undertook. We are obliged to include this kind of information in the form 990.

The funds were received from Wikia - we no longer have any arrangements to this effect with Wikia.

On page 8, the question is asked "Are any officers related to each other through family or business relationships?" Given that several individuals who were on the Board during 06-07 (Jimmy, Angela, and Michael Davis) were also involved with Wikia, how can this answer be no?

At first glance, it does seem like this question should be answered “yes.” However, the IRS provides non-profits with detailed guidelines regarding what it considers a "business relationship."

Whether or not there is a business relationship hinges upon the amount of direct compensation (salary) a person receives, as well as the amount of stock they own. In the case of Jimmy, Angela and Michael, none of them received sufficient compensation, nor owned sufficient stock, to qualify as having a business relationship under the IRS guidelines. Therefore, the question is properly answered no. We have reviewed this issue in detail with Wikia and with our audit firm, and we are satisfied that the question is answered accurately.

Posted by: thekohser

So Jimbo, Angela, and Michael never owned more than 35% of Wikia, Inc. together.

Would that have been so hard for the WMF to tell the world, say, a year ago?

Greg