Article introductions, ~or~ just exactly how stupid are wikipedia admins Options

[TungstenCarbide]

What is so magical about the first sentence of articles that they must contain every spelling, pronunciation, translation, transliteration and etymology known? Why must it be there and no where else?

More specifically, why does everything in red have to be in the first sentance?

Kyrgyzstan (pronounced /ˈkɝːɡɪstæn/; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан [qɯrʀɯzˈstɑn]; Russian: Киргизия [kirˈɡizija] or Киргизстан [ˈkirɡistan] or Кыргызстан [ˈkˠɨrɡˠɨzstan], variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia), officially the Kyrgyz Republic, is a country in Central Asia. Landlocked and mountainous, it is bordered by Kazakhstan to the north, Uzbekistan to the west, Tajikistan to the southwest and China to the east. The ethnonym "Kyrgyz", after which the country is named, is thought to originally mean either "forty girls" or "forty tribes", presumably referring to the epic hero Manas who, as legend has it, unified forty tribes against the Mongols.[citation needed] According to popular interpretations, the 40-ray sun on the flag of Kyrgyzstan symbolizes the forty tribes of Manas.


See here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=269348830
there are even more hidious examples at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...ages_in_opening and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_tal...ing_clusterfuck

I made some notes on my user page but it was spitefully deleted after I was banned. Is there an administrator without their head up their ass who can undelete my page? thanks.

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sat 14th March 2009, 3:57pm

[Eva Destruction]

The "notes on your user page" were – in full –

"Piling all that shit into the first sentence creates a Headache inducing clusterfuck. Why do it? What's the rationale? What's so magical about the first sentence? Hmmm? Anyone? I've yet to receive an intelligent answer. Some of the things I've seen dumped into the first sentence which don't belong there are; pronunciation, multiple pronunciations, pronunciations with a link to the IPA page explaining it's a pronunciation, pronunciations with the pronunciation and the word 'pronunciation' and a link to the IPA page explaining it's a pronunciation, etymology, spelling in other languages, transliterations and so on. SO, you might ask, what is the reason for shoehorning ten pounds of shit into a five pound pail when there are better ways to to it?; Because "that's the way we do it here"

In this particular case, I actually agree that at the very least the Russian and Kyrgyz spellings both need to be there, even though it makes it look messy.

[TungstenCarbide]

The "notes on your user page" were – in full –

"Piling all that shit into the first sentence creates a Headache inducing clusterfuck. Why do it? What's the rationale? What's so magical about the first sentence? Hmmm? Anyone? I've yet to receive an intelligent answer. Some of the things I've seen dumped into the first sentence which don't belong there are; pronunciation, multiple pronunciations, pronunciations with a link to the IPA page explaining it's a pronunciation, pronunciations with the pronunciation and the word 'pronunciation' and a link to the IPA page explaining it's a pronunciation, etymology, spelling in other languages, transliterations and so on. SO, you might ask, what is the reason for shoehorning ten pounds of shit into a five pound pail when there are better ways to to it?; Because "that's the way we do it here"

In this particular case, I actually agree that at the very least the Russian and Kyrgyz spellings both need to be there, even though it makes it look messy.

Sure, a couple of things are fine, but half a dozen?????

Why there? Why the first sentence? What is so magical about that particular location? Wiktionary doesn't do it. Witionary uses a collapsible feature for a lot of that stuff.

Wikipedia has all kinds of formatting things to help with this. But no - introductions have to be made unreadable because "that's the way we do things here".

-edit-

here's another example from a link in my first post;

Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) is a plant in the family Fabaceae. It is commonly known as Maithray (Gujarati), Methi (Oriya, Bangla), Methi or Mithi (Hindi , Assamese, Nepali, Marathi मेथी, and Urdu ميتهي , from the Sanskrit मेथिका), Menthyada soppu (ಮೆಂತ್ಯ) (Kannada), Ventayam (வெந்தயம்) (Tamil), Menthulu(మెంతులు) (Telugu), Çemen (Turkish), Hilbeh (حلبة Arabic, חילבהHebrew), or ulluva (ഉലുവ Malayalam)، shambalîleh (شنبليله Persian). Fenugreek is used both as an herb (the leaves) and as a spice (the seed). It is cultivated worldwide as a semi-arid crop. It is frequently used in curry.

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sat 14th March 2009, 4:13pm

[CharlotteWebb]

Kyrgyzstan (pronounced /ˈkɝːɡɪstæn/; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан [qɯrʀɯzˈstɑn]; Russian: Киргизия [kirˈɡizija] or Киргизстан [ˈkirɡistan] or Кыргызстан [ˈkˠɨrɡˠɨzstan], variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia)

The weight of the latter names outside the [[Kyrgyz SSR]] page seems a little bit undue. Perhaps putting it in a footnote or an ==Exonyms for Kyrgyzstan== section would be the best compromise, or maybe a separate article—we have quite a few in [[Category:Country name etymology]].

...originally mean either "forty girls"...

Funny I thought the scripture said "seventy-two".

Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) is a plant in the family Fabaceae. It is commonly known as Maithray (Gujarati), Methi (Oriya, Bangla), Methi or Mithi (Hindi , Assamese, Nepali, Marathi मेथी, and Urdu ميتهي , from the Sanskrit मेथिका), Menthyada soppu (ಮೆಂತ್ಯ) (Kannada), Ventayam (வெந்தயம்) (Tamil), Menthulu(మెంతులు) (Telugu), Çemen (Turkish), Hilbeh (حلبة Arabic, חילבהHebrew), or ulluva (ഉലുവ Malayalam)، shambalîleh (شنبليله Persian). Fenugreek is used both as an herb (the leaves) and as a spice (the seed). It is cultivated worldwide as a semi-arid crop. It is frequently used in curry.

These definitely don't belong in the lead section, but that doesn't mean they don't belong somewhere. I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance.

[TungstenCarbide]

I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance.

I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass and told him to stay the hell off my talk page. Something about that guy rubbed me the wrong way, like his mind was too empty to actually do any editing, so he just wanders around dredging people through the sewage of his lectures.

PS. there was nothing on my user page offensive - they just deleted it out of spite. Is there an admin around who can undelete it please?

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sat 14th March 2009, 5:38pm

[LaraLove]

I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance.

I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass and told him to stay the hell off my talk page. Something about that guy rubbed me the wrong way, like his mind was too empty to actually do any editing, so he just wanders around dredging people through the sewage of his lectures.

PS. there was nothing on my user page offensive - they just deleted it out of spite. Is there an admin around who can undelete it please?

If I had my bit, I'd do it. Well, I'd review the situation in depth. I don't have my bit, though, so sorry. Chances are pretty good you got the indef for calling George names. Hahaha... I'd reverse it if I found that to be the case.

[Edit] Oh, nevermind. I just saw the block log. It was a 72 hour block, changed to indefinite after incivility. An indefinite incivility block. Stupid admins with their delicate little sensibilities, unable to take a slight against them. This is the type of person I was accused of being during my RFA. People opposed me, saying that they didn't need anymore thin-skinned admins... turns out they've got a boatload of them, and I don't think I was one of them.

I would overturn that block as fucktarded, but I'd probably word it differently to avoid the excessive kb of bullshit that would be added to my talk page.

[CharlotteWebb]

I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass...

Well a lot of guys on WP are like that. I feel your pain.

This post has been edited by CharlotteWebb: Sat 14th March 2009, 5:49pm

[Malleus]

Kyrgyzstan (pronounced /ˈkɝːɡɪstæn/; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан [qɯrʀɯzˈstɑn]; Russian: Киргизия [kirˈɡizija] or Киргизстан [ˈkirɡistan] or Кыргызстан [ˈkˠɨrɡˠɨzstan], variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia)

The weight of the latter names outside the [[Kyrgyz SSR]] page seems a little bit undue. Perhaps putting it in a footnote or an ==Exonyms for Kyrgyzstan== section would be the best compromise, or maybe a separate article—we have quite a few in [[Category:Country name etymology]].

...originally mean either "forty girls"...

Funny I thought the scripture said "seventy-two".

Fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum) is a plant in the family Fabaceae. It is commonly known as Maithray (Gujarati), Methi (Oriya, Bangla), Methi or Mithi (Hindi , Assamese, Nepali, Marathi मेथी, and Urdu ميتهي , from the Sanskrit मेथिका), Menthyada soppu (ಮೆಂತ್ಯ) (Kannada), Ventayam (வெந்தயம்) (Tamil), Menthulu(మెంతులు) (Telugu), Çemen (Turkish), Hilbeh (حلبة Arabic, חילבהHebrew), or ulluva (ഉലുവ Malayalam)، shambalîleh (شنبليله Persian). Fenugreek is used both as an herb (the leaves) and as a spice (the seed). It is cultivated worldwide as a semi-arid crop. It is frequently used in curry.

These definitely don't belong in the lead section, but that doesn't mean they don't belong somewhere. I don't know what else you may have said that was deleted, but the indefinite block seems harsh at first glance.

It's pretty easy to get an indefinite block these days. Just tell an administrator to stick his interpretation of the civility policy up his arse. Works best when addressed to a hormonal male teenager.

[Edit] Oh, nevermind. I just saw the block log. It was a 72 hour block, changed to indefinite after incivility. An indefinite incivility block. Stupid admins with their delicate little sensibilities, unable to take a slight against them. This is the type of person I was accused of being during my RFA. People opposed me, saying that they didn't need anymore thin-skinned admins... turns out they've got a boatload of them, and I don't think I was one of them.

I would overturn that block as fucktarded, but I'd probably word it differently to avoid the excessive kb of bullshit that would be added to my talk page.

"Thin-skinned" would not be right at the top of the list of adjectives I'd choose to describe you as an administrator. Wouldn't be on the list at all in fact.

This post has been edited by Malleus: Sat 14th March 2009, 5:56pm

[CharlotteWebb]

What is so magical about the first sentence of articles that they must contain every spelling, pronunciation, translation, transliteration and etymology known? Why must it be there and no where else?

I think this article handles it a little bit better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube#Name
but you have to remember this is the river that drains, I don't know... half of non-post-soviet Europe, the part that includes the Balkans... so this information is indeed relevant.

[Noroton]

a marshmallow stuffed lard ass

I'd never heard of this particular perversion before, and I have to thank TungstenCarbide for stuffing my brain with visions of ... well, you know. Questions to which I'm not sure I want answers but for some reason (and let's not explore that) feel compelled to ask:

1. How does one actually stuff a lard ass with marshmallows?

(and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ )

2. Why would one do this thing?

3. Would a lard ass stuffed with marshmallows be considered a lardier lard ass than a lard ass not stuffed with marshmallows?

4. Would a regular ass stuffed with marshmallows thereby become a lard ass?

5. Is it more or less comfortable to sit when your ass is stuffed with marshmallows than when it isn't, whether or not it's lardy or relatively lard-free? I mean, having your colon filled up is generally uncomfortable, but they're marshmallows, so they should be pretty soft, right?

6. Do they say "lard arse" in the UK, or is that just too many "r"s for an "r"-challenged dialect to take on when dealing with emotionally startling rarified perversions? (Actually, I find 19,800 "lard arse" ghits, so I guess that answers the question.)

7. Are marshmallows that are used for stuffing right out of the bag or are they toasted?

8. Are there health risks involved in stuffing ones ass with marshmallows?

9. How many bags of marshmallows does it take before a lard ass is considered stuffed? Would that be any more or less than a regular ass?

10. Was this ever done at Guantanamo? If so, did it result in authorities recovering actual actionable information preventing a terrorist attack on our homeland?

11. Should diabetics be careful about stuffing marshmallows up their asses? If so, are there gluten-free alternative marshmallows safe for gluteus maximi?

12. Does the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man have a marshmallow-stuffed lard ass?

13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ...

[One]

13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ...

Welcome to wikipediareview, Noroton.

[CharlotteWebb]

(and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ )

Well no this is about toy guns that shoot marshmallows, which would at be least less painful than frozen paintballs or real ammo.

[TungstenCarbide]

a marshmallow stuffed lard ass

I'd never heard of this particular perversion before, and I have to thank TungstenCarbide for stuffing my brain with visions of ... well, you know. Questions to which I'm not sure I want answers but for some reason (and let's not explore that) feel compelled to ask:

1. How does one actually stuff a lard ass with marshmallows?

(and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ )

2. Why would one do this thing?

3. Would a lard ass stuffed with marshmallows be considered a lardier lard ass than a lard ass not stuffed with marshmallows?

4. Would a regular ass stuffed with marshmallows thereby become a lard ass?

5. Is it more or less comfortable to sit when your ass is stuffed with marshmallows than when it isn't, whether or not it's lardy or relatively lard-free? I mean, having your colon filled up is generally uncomfortable, but they're marshmallows, so they should be pretty soft, right?

6. Do they say "lard arse" in the UK, or is that just too many "r"s for an "r"-challenged dialect to take on when dealing with emotionally startling rarified perversions? (Actually, I find 19,800 "lard arse" ghits, so I guess that answers the question.)

7. Are marshmallows that are used for stuffing right out of the bag or are they toasted?

8. Are there health risks involved in stuffing ones ass with marshmallows?

9. How many bags of marshmallows does it take before a lard ass is considered stuffed? Would that be any more or less than a regular ass?

10. Was this ever done at Guantanamo? If so, did it result in authorities recovering actual actionable information preventing a terrorist attack on our homeland?

11. Should diabetics be careful about stuffing marshmallows up their asses? If so, are there gluten-free alternative marshmallows safe for gluteus maximi?

12. Does the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man have a marshmallow-stuffed lard ass?

13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ...

Well, Noroton, I came here for a serious discussion, unlike you. But to clarify where my choice of words came from, and maybe 'choice' is the wrong word since they just kinda rolled without thought; the marshmallow I think reflects a general poofiness, touchy-feely quality and lack of substance in his post. And the lard-ass refers to the general lack of valuable work from this administrator, who appears to just sit around subjecting people to his blather.

Wikipedia obviously isn't the place for me, but for the love of god how hard is it to write clear and simple intros that draw a person into the article, instead headache inducing clusterfucks that chase them off?

[LessHorrid vanU]

a marshmallow stuffed lard ass

I'd never heard of this particular perversion before, and I have to thank TungstenCarbide for stuffing my brain with visions of ... well, you know. Questions to which I'm not sure I want answers but for some reason (and let's not explore that) feel compelled to ask:

1. How does one actually stuff a lard ass with marshmallows?

(and if this has anything to do with it, really, I'd rather not know: http://www.marshmallowshooter.com/ )

2. Why would one do this thing?

3. Would a lard ass stuffed with marshmallows be considered a lardier lard ass than a lard ass not stuffed with marshmallows?

4. Would a regular ass stuffed with marshmallows thereby become a lard ass?

5. Is it more or less comfortable to sit when your ass is stuffed with marshmallows than when it isn't, whether or not it's lardy or relatively lard-free? I mean, having your colon filled up is generally uncomfortable, but they're marshmallows, so they should be pretty soft, right?

6. Do they say "lard arse" in the UK, or is that just too many "r"s for an "r"-challenged dialect to take on when dealing with emotionally startling rarified perversions? (Actually, I find 19,800 "lard arse" ghits, so I guess that answers the question.)

7. Are marshmallows that are used for stuffing right out of the bag or are they toasted?

8. Are there health risks involved in stuffing ones ass with marshmallows?

9. How many bags of marshmallows does it take before a lard ass is considered stuffed? Would that be any more or less than a regular ass?

10. Was this ever done at Guantanamo? If so, did it result in authorities recovering actual actionable information preventing a terrorist attack on our homeland?

11. Should diabetics be careful about stuffing marshmallows up their asses? If so, are there gluten-free alternative marshmallows safe for gluteus maximi?

12. Does the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man have a marshmallow-stuffed lard ass?

13. Does this work with Peeps? After all, it's about that time of year ...

Well, Noroton, I came here for a serious discussion, unlike you. But to clarify where my choice of words came from, and maybe 'choice' is the wrong word since they just kinda rolled without thought; the marshmallow I think reflects a general poofiness, touchy-feely quality and lack of substance in his post. And the lard-ass refers to the general lack of valuable work from this administrator, who appears to just sit around subjecting people to his blather.

Wikipedia obviously isn't the place for me, but for the love of god how hard is it to write clear and simple intros that draw a person into the article, instead headache inducing clusterfucks that chase them off?

Ah, "poofiness"... An adjective by which homosexual orientation is given to mean being less worthy than heterosexual desires, that said poofs are to be despised and the label decreed to be offensive to those who are attracted to the opposite sex.

Thereby ensuring that I am not going to be bothered to spend any more time on it.

[TungstenCarbide]

Ah, "poofiness"... An adjective by which homosexual orientation is given to mean being less worthy than heterosexual desires, that said poofs are to be despised and the label decreed to be offensive to those who are attracted to the opposite sex.

Thereby ensuring that I am not going to be bothered to spend any more time on it.

No no no. Poofy like spongy, air filled, like a marshmallow!

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sun 15th March 2009, 12:32am

[Noroton]

Well, Noroton, I came here for a serious discussion, unlike you. But to clarify where my choice of words came from, and maybe 'choice' is the wrong word since they just kinda rolled without thought; the marshmallow I think reflects a general poofiness, touchy-feely quality and lack of substance in his post. And the lard-ass refers to the general lack of valuable work from this administrator, who appears to just sit around subjecting people to his blather.

Oh, I'm sorry. I got the impression that you took a less serious attitude, and therefore didn't expect a great deal of seriousness after you posted this:

I called Georgewilliamherbert a marshmallow stuffed lard ass and told him to stay the hell off my talk page. Something about that guy rubbed me the wrong way, like his mind was too empty to actually do any editing, so he just wanders around dredging people through the sewage of his lectures.

You're more likely to avoid unserious responses when you avoid innovative, humorous invective. Given the fact that you were the one who brought up the insertion of comestibles into the anal cavities of the corpulent, I really didn't think I'd be offending you or anyone else (except those with a more delicate sense of humor than I have). So again, sorry to offend. I didn't mean to kick you when you're down.

Wikipedia obviously isn't the place for me, but for the love of god how hard is it to write clear and simple intros that draw a person into the article, instead headache inducing clusterfucks that chase them off?

For the record, I agree . We certainly don't need the Tamil word for fenugreek in a lead paragraph. It's the kind of thing you should be able to convince a lot of Wikipedians to support, I think. Sounds like you made it a lot harder to do that by hurling insults at Georgewilliamherbert and others.

Personally, if I wielded the cudgel, I'd almost always give a warning to someone who'd done what you did. If any of the admins who had blocked me had simply warned me first, the blocks could have been avoided (in some cases, not about civility, I'd have argued the point). I think that's even in [[WP:BLOCK]] policy, but about one admin in a thousand actually warns first before swinging with the cudgel. (The warning isn't to inform people who don't know that bad behavior will get them blocked -- just about everyone knows that. The warning is useful to get the warnee to start thinking about where his attitude will get him.)

Another thing I wouldn't do -- because it's completely useless, unhelpful, unconstructive, pretty damn stupid and very likely extremely malicious -- is leave a scolding message on the talk page of someone who's clearly angry and who's just been blocked. This should probably be spelled out somewhere in policy, and people who do it should themselves be treated to a vacation.

Since Wikipedia makes decisions by consensus, you are required to suffer fools gladly if you want to get along or get something done. Did you want to get the entire encyclopedia to change this stupid pattern of junking up the leads with pedantic trivia, or did you just want to rail against it?

It sounds to me like you could contribute a lot to Wikipedia if you stopped the insults, including the pouffy thing LessHorridVanU pointed out (if you didn't mean to insult gays by that, please say so -- EDIT: I see you did). Why not email one of the blocking admins and admit you were acting in a way that was completely useless, unhelpful, unconstructive and pretty damn stupid with regard to those insults. I'm pretty sure they'd let you back, if that's what you want. Of course, it works better if, after two weeks, you actually believe that you shouldn't be insulting people you might have to work with later.

This morning I heard an interview on the radio with the Manhattan District Attorney, Morgenthau, who's 90 and retiring after decades in that job. He mentioned that one of the important ways that criminals reform is by realizing that they've been treated fairly by the system (obviously, I'm not calling you a criminal, but the analogy is obvious). Wikipedia does a really shitty job with that, including in this case, and as a result, Wikipedia shoots itself in the foot. If you do your part in correcting this, you could go back if you wanted to, assuming you want to go back.

How's that for serious?

This post has been edited by Noroton: Sun 15th March 2009, 12:55am

[EricBarbour]

Tungsten: as you will quickly find by looking at the archives here, Wikipedia has a LOT of
"marshmallow stuffed lard ass" admins. Georgewilliamherbert is not a very bad one,
believe it or not. (He used to participate on this forum, but I haven't seen him here
in a while. You can ask another admin here for help, but he/she might not be willing to
get into conflict with GWH.)

Seriously, your personality might be unsuitable for the deranged, dishonest, popularity-contest
freak show that Wikipedia is in reality. (The freaks lie about this all the time, GWH included.)

You can always create a new account and try again.

Just realize, there is no "reasonable" there, and do not expect to "negotiate" with someone
more powerful than you, in good faith. There is a written policy talking about "good faith",
but it has no force or meaning......

Especially on an article wherein you had a conflict with someone. Because Wikipedia is more like
a role-playing game than an "encyclopedia", you can expect that your opponent will be watching
that article, and will descend upon you if try to edit it again. The "encyclopedia" part is just an excuse.

(Sorry to give you bad news. I think it's better to be honest up-front.)

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sun 15th March 2009, 12:54am

[Kato]

Tungsten: as you will quickly find by looking at the archives here, Wikipedia has a LOT of
"marshmallow stuffed lard ass" admins. Georgewilliamherbert is not a very bad one,
believe it or not. (He used to participate on this forum, but I haven't seen him here
in a while. You can ask another admin here for help, but he/she might not be willing to
get into conflict with GWH.)

Correction.

Georgewilliamherbert is a disastrous figure on Wikipedia, who never participated on this forum, thank goodness. Judging by his awful wiki-antics, I doubt he could manage to complete the registration. Short of the likes of JzG, he's just about as bad they get, I'm afraid.

[zvook]

This objection comes up from time to time on the talk page of the wikipedia manual of style page dealing with lead sections.

The initial drive for including information in brackets after the initial subject mention came from from looking at dictionary practice, where of course there are no leads.

So different parts of the MOS came to be maintained by different groups each with regard to their particular piece of name info in the opening sentence.

A particular article as Wikipedia is now may have English, Arabic, French, and Berber. Another may have English, simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, pinyin and Wade-Giles. In theory, I guess all could have etymology and IPA guides beside each.

Some encyclopedias use no parenthetical information at all after the initial mention of the subject, some use IPA, yet some others use wade-giles, some use footnotes, and so on, but finding an encyclopedia which uses more than two instances of parenthetical information is difficult.

A footnote when these things are not brief is the obvious solution, though Jeandré du Toit dumped some stuff in a box here, having procured SlimVirgin's blessing on a MoS talk page.

Back when I used to edit (and care), I put some looooong strings of info of this type I came across in footnotes, but they were all reverted pretty quickly.

As an afterthought, I thought it had been recognized in recent times on wikipedia that stuff people say while responding to being blocked should no longer be used against them, it being understood that a heated response is quite a normal and forgivable reaction.

I guess not.

This post has been edited by zvook: Sun 15th March 2009, 1:59am

[TungstenCarbide]

This morning I heard an interview on the radio with the Manhattan District Attorney, Morgenthau, who's 90 and retiring after decades in that job. He mentioned that one of the important ways that criminals reform is by realizing that they've been treated fairly by the system (obviously, I'm not calling you a criminal, but the analogy is obvious). Wikipedia does a really shitty job with that, including in this case, and as a result, Wikipedia shoots itself in the foot. If you do your part in correcting this, you could go back if you wanted to, assuming you want to go back.

How's that for serious?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not railing at the injustice of how I was treated. I'm railing at piss poor idiotic introductions that a 10yr old could improve on.

If you go read my reply to Marshmallow George you'll see what I mean. Those idiots are placing a tortured, twisted idea of 'civility' above article quality. Sometimes people need a good swift boot up the ass to try harder. Take that away and you get a mediocre social club. I don't think I've been treated unfairly - wikipedia admins can make whatever rules they want and kick me out if I don't abide.

I asked the guy who owns the article [[Kyrgyzstan]] where to go broach this issue and he couldn't answer. It took me like an hour to find the right style page to go to. Not that it did any good. But in doing so, and in hind sight, it became obvious that there are throngs of marshmallow georges that never make that kind of effort to improve quality - it's hard work.

This objection comes up from time to time on the talk page of the wikipedia manual of style page dealing with lead sections.

The initial drive for including information in brackets after the initial subject mention came from from looking at dictionary practice, where of course there are no leads.

So different parts of the MOS came to be maintained by different groups each with regard to their particular piece of name info in the opening sentence.

A particular article as Wikipedia is now may have English, Arabic, French, and Berber. Another may have English, simplified Chinese, traditional Chinese, pinyin and Wade-Giles. In theory, I guess all could have etymology and IPA guides beside each.

Some encyclopedias use no parenthetical information at all after the initial mention of the subject, some use IPA, yet some others use wade-giles, some use footnotes, and so on, but finding an encyclopedia which uses more than two instances of parenthetical information is difficult.

A footnote when these things are not brief is the obvious solution, though Jeandré du Toit dumped some stuff in a box here, having procured SlimVirgin's blessing on a MoS talk page.

Back when I used to edit (and care), I put some looooong strings of info of this type I came across in footnotes, but they were all reverted pretty quickly. <snip>

Good points. Wikipedia has all kinds of formatting tricks that could help.

There have been more good ideas and discussion at this thread than my whole experience at wikipedia. Admins there seem to spend ten times the effort bludgeoning people with 'civility' than working quality problems.

This post has been edited by TungstenCarbide: Sun 15th March 2009, 1:58am