|
|
|
Are Feature articles worth their salt?, Feature article quality evaluation shows they're a crock |
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
This has been posted by TCO on the FA talk page and seriously questions the value of FA to Wikipedia on Improving Wikipedia’s important articles! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...nt_articles.pdfAre articles with high reader page views more important than "niche" articles by FAC regulars that get few views per month? Is FAC a "walled garden" concentrating on "star collectors" (niche article polishers) that discourages NEW BLOOD and NEW IDEAS? This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
Eppur si muove |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 304
Joined:
Member No.: 9,171
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:53pm) The articles I worked on were all highly viewed and traditional when it came to academia.
However, most of the articles at FAC were obscure animals, obscure roads, obscure bands, obscure military battles, etc.
You forgot about obscure weather events. Personally I think that Wikipedia is most helpful with producing medium-obscure content where there is some academic value. There are plenty of places you can find out about Michael Jackson on the web. There are relatively few where you can find out about Mary Wollstonecraft. I would regard the latter as much more valuable than the former, never mind the hits.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 2:53pm) The articles I worked on were all highly viewed and traditional when it came to academia.
However, most of the articles at FAC were obscure animals, obscure roads, obscure bands, obscure military battles, etc.
The review divides FA editors into categories. Dabblers: Typically a single FA on a low view topic . Example: Harrias writing “Herbie Hewittâ€, a 19th century cricket player. Star collectors: High production of FA stars by emphasizing low-relevance content.like Malleus, Ealdgyth, Casliber, Ucucha, Brianboulton etc. that work on obscure articles with few page views per month and not on important articles. Champions: Typically a single FA on an important topic. An example is user Jakob.scholbach writing “Logarithmâ€. Battleships: Multiple high impact FAs. An example is user Hawkeye writing “Manhattan Project†and “Leslie Grovesâ€. (These editors can also be Star collectors.) "Champions deliver more value than star collectors, per capita and overall: High relevance/low production beats low relevance/high production." "Star collecting delivers little benefit as a segment. •Even though there are almost twice as many star collectors as champions, the champion group delivers eight times the value. •Star collectors and dabblers together deliver only 7% of overall FA viewer impact.""Ucucha had 14 times the stars as Garrando in 2011 JAN-SEP. But since Garrando’s single article has 180 times the popularity of Ucucha’s average article, Garrando had 13 times the total reader impact. Champion beats star collector."This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
But if the FA is on a topic that hardly anyone reads? That is most of the FAs! "Ian Rose, star collector, has 6 FAs at an average page view of 254 (the lowest average of all 155 FAers, including all the dabblers)."Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration. Collaborated Featured Articles are more relevant than solo-nominated ones. (Monthly page views used to measure relevance.) Of the 151 FA's analyzed, "46 users had a single collaboration and 90 users had solo FAs only". Read the study! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...nt_articles.pdfThis post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 3:37pm) The thing is how long can an FA keep it's status without eroding? Subtle vandals can just water down that featured article and it can ultimately end up total crap because "anyone can edit." Sure, there are those who protect articles but how many years can you keep that up? If you can just say once an article reaches FA status it should be locked up and just be updated when something new comes up. However, the culture over there will never allow it.
Good point. Amandajm came to To Autumn and pretty much destroyed it by introducing plagiarism, altering text to say the opposite of the sources, etc. Most people refused to care even when there was lots of proof to that effect. Ceoil even stuck up for her and tried to defend her actions even though all evidence was that the user had a long history of plagiarizing. Much of the plagiarism and other problems is still in the page, unfortunately. Chrisoff - going off of views, here are mine (30 day period per the stat links): * Samuel Johnson 41,600 * Ode on a Grecian Urn - 15,404 * To Autumn - 9,848 * The Lucy poems - 4,889 * The Drapier's Letters - 1,175 * Ode on Indolence - 1,049 * The Author's Farce - 636 * Early life of Samuel Johnson - 535 * Christopher Smart's asylum confinement - 507 * Nicolo Giraud - 469 * The Covent-Garden Journal - 369 This post has been edited by Ottava:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE Chrisoff - going off of views, here are mine (30 day period per the stat links): Ottava, this study concentrates on recent FA's, from January to September 2011. The study is on the relevance of FAC in general. DON'T just think of yourself! Study conclusion: (considering the heavy lifting and resources FAC consumes) As Wikipedia transitions from quantity to quality, GA is carrying the load. FA is not pulling its weight.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.
And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though. Read the study! You dismiss the Vital articles like House, but you are answered by Johnbod: "Well over 100,000 per month apparently, probably mostly with homework, as for many of these articles; but they still deserve a better article than they currently get. Or maybe they want to know why the plumbing is bust, in which case, tough. What really pisses me off is truly dire stubs like [[English Renaissance]], where (until today) some 17,000 readers a month were told that "William Shakespeare, composed theatrical representations of the English take on life, death, and history", which had of course remained unchanged since 2005 (when the article overall was far better than this morning, I now see). That's over a million views. I do think that editors who are able to improve the worst of these without much effort have a responsibility to the project to spend some of their time doing so. At all levels we put far too much effort into new articles, as opposed to the long-untouched rubbish on significant topics we already have. Is Wikipedia for the world? Or just for you and Ottava? As the study asks: Why is production of new FAs dropping? •Bottlenecks of structure (page construction, time requirements)? •Reviewer limits (only a few trusted reviewers and no recruitment or training of top replacements)? •Unpleasant FAC atmosphere? Edit wars dissuading high investment in articles? Desired exclusivity? “Burnout� Others?
|
|
|
|
Eppur si muove |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 304
Joined:
Member No.: 9,171
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:57pm) All good solid subjects. My last solo GA had 152 but it's useful when the thing is going to be performed somewhere. The official Wikimedia head office line on value is influenced by their wanting to take over the world. Mine is that organising knowledge that is not immediately available on the web is more useful. This post has been edited by Eppur si muove:
|
|
|
|
timbo |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 102
Joined:
Member No.: 21,141
|
I've just taken a look at that pdf at the top of this thread. That is one of the most nauseating pieces of shit that I've ever seen. t Here's a gem... QUOTE "Even though Wikipedia is 10 years old, the 5th most viewed site on the Internet, and contains 3 million+ articles, 85% of its Vital Articles are still...unsatisfactory."
And who makes a "vital" article a "vital" article? Bureaucrats. Then, jump from that into the automatic assumption that every article that hasn't been put through the bureaucratic gauntlet is...................... "unsatisfactory." Hey, fuck you, asshole!!! I've submitted none of my articles to the A/GA/FA process and I never will. When I'm done, it's a B -- and it's perfectly......................... satisfactory. This post has been edited by timbo:
|
|
|
|
Vigilant |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 307
Joined:
Member No.: 8,684
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:57pm) QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 3:37pm) The thing is how long can an FA keep it's status without eroding? Subtle vandals can just water down that featured article and it can ultimately end up total crap because "anyone can edit." Sure, there are those who protect articles but how many years can you keep that up? If you can just say once an article reaches FA status it should be locked up and just be updated when something new comes up. However, the culture over there will never allow it.
Good point. Amandajm came to To Autumn and pretty much destroyed it by introducing plagiarism, altering text to say the opposite of the sources, etc. Most people refused to care even when there was lots of proof to that effect. Ceoil even stuck up for her and tried to defend her actions even though all evidence was that the user had a long history of plagiarizing. Much of the plagiarism and other problems is still in the page, unfortunately. Chrisoff - going off of views, here are mine (30 day period per the stat links): * Samuel Johnson 41,600 * Ode on a Grecian Urn - 15,404 * To Autumn - 9,848 * The Lucy poems - 4,889 * The Drapier's Letters - 1,175 * Ode on Indolence - 1,049 * The Author's Farce - 636 * Early life of Samuel Johnson - 535 * Christopher Smart's asylum confinement - 507 * Nicolo Giraud - 469 * The Covent-Garden Journal - 369 When you divide your article view stats by the mean for all visited articles, they approach zero relevance with great rapidity. Happy to help.
|
|
|
|
Malleus |
|
Fat Cat
Group: Contributors
Posts: 1,682
Joined:
From: United Kingdom
Member No.: 8,716
|
QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 9:46pm) QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.
And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though. Read the study! You dismiss the Vital articles like House, but you are answered by Johnbod: "Well over 100,000 per month apparently, probably mostly with homework, as for many of these articles; but they still deserve a better article than they currently get. Or maybe they want to know why the plumbing is bust, in which case, tough. You are familiar with the TV series entitled House I take It? That's what people are looking for, not some rambling essay on places in which people live.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 5:29pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 9:46pm) QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.
And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though. Read the study! You dismiss the Vital articles like House, but you are answered by Johnbod: "Well over 100,000 per month apparently, probably mostly with homework, as for many of these articles; but they still deserve a better article than they currently get. Or maybe they want to know why the plumbing is bust, in which case, tough. You are familiar with the TV series entitled House I take It? That's what people are looking for, not some rambling essay on places in which people live. Sorry! It's House as in the structure! Look it up! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HouseSee http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/HouseRemember, we aren't all middle class western academics. This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:46pm) Read the study!
You dismiss the Vital articles like House...
Most of the "Vital" articles are crap topics with little solid academic publications. Things like "House" are so common, wide spread, etc, that making an encyclopedia article based on third party sources is practically impossible. It is like trying to determine the color of the sun by staring at it. An article like Samuel Johnson (chosen because it is a shared FA of Malleus and myself and you are referring to us both) is a truly "vital" article in the academic sense - it is a major figure that is historic, has a lot of academic sources, and is someone that an encyclopedia should be used to contain information on. The study merely assumed that those determining the "vital" status actually knew what they were doing, and they ignored other determiners of importance (other rankings or things like "does the traditional Britannica have an article on it?"). One of the problems is that people assume that editors are able to work on any topic and are willing to change topics. Instead, most FAC contributors specialize in a few topics of interest and don't care about anything else. This is good and bad, but it wont ever change. It is like complaining that there are too many people who want to study Math instead of study Biology. You can't really force them to go somewhere that they aren't interested in going. There was either a short story or an actual news report of a socialistic type society that randomly assigned jobs instead of providing people what jobs they are good at/have backgrounds in. The end result is that it doesn't work. Why? Because it would be impossible for it to work. That isn't human nature. This post has been edited by Ottava:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 5:35pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:46pm) Read the study!
You dismiss the Vital articles like House...
Most of the "Vital" articles are crap topics with little solid academic publications. Things like "House" are so common, wide spread, etc, that making an encyclopedia article based on third party sources is practically impossible. It is like trying to determine the color of the sun by staring at it. An article like Samuel Johnson (chosen because it is a shared FA of Malleus and myself and you are referring to us both) is a truly "vital" article in the academic sense - it is a major figure that is historic, has a lot of academic sources, and is someone that an encyclopedia should be used to contain information on. The study merely assumed that those determining the "vital" status actually knew what they were doing, and they ignored other determiners of importance (other rankings or things like "does the traditional Britannica have an article on it?"). You speak volumes! Clearly your little world is not the one that Wikipedia.org is aiming for exclusively. Jimbo is reaching toward India! And the rest of the world. Can you believe that there is soon to be a time when no one will care about Samuel Johnson? House (as in structure) is more important globally.
|
|
|
|
Malleus |
|
Fat Cat
Group: Contributors
Posts: 1,682
Joined:
From: United Kingdom
Member No.: 8,716
|
QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 10:34pm) QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 5:29pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 9:46pm) QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.
And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though. Read the study! You dismiss the Vital articles like House, but you are answered by Johnbod: "Well over 100,000 per month apparently, probably mostly with homework, as for many of these articles; but they still deserve a better article than they currently get. Or maybe they want to know why the plumbing is bust, in which case, tough. You are familiar with the TV series entitled House I take It? That's what people are looking for, not some rambling essay on places in which people live. Sorry! It's House as in the structure! Look it up! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HouseSee http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/HouseRemember, we aren't all middle class western academics. No need to apologise for being a complete dick. If you give it just a moment's thought you'll see that your talking complete and utter rubbish, as per usual.
|
|
|
|
Eppur si muove |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 304
Joined:
Member No.: 9,171
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 10:35pm)
An article like Samuel Johnson (chosen because it is a shared FA of Malleus and myself and you are referring to us both) is a truly "vital" article in the academic sense - it is a major figure that is historic, has a lot of academic sources, and is someone that an encyclopedia should be used to contain information on.
And it is no surprise that this is a joint development. There is going to be a strong correlation between the number of times an article is viewed and the number of contributors and this means that popular subjects to read are more likely to have editors willing to collaborate on reaching a milestone. Of my various recognised content, the article on Wagner is the only one with more than two significant contributors. Most of the ones I've pushed up on my own are self-contained with little source material out there which makes it easy to manage on my own. However, they have relatively few views which will make the Wikimedia beancounters think I have wasted my time. My solo GA which has attained the magic 3000 hits a month is Troilus. It is a significant subject with lots of academic sources. However, it is not a collectible card game, hurricane or sporting season and therefore does not appeal greatly to the typical Wikipedian. I've at various times toyed with the idea of getting it to FA, but it is such a big topic that I feel rather lost as to what to do next. It would benefit from access to an academic library. (And anyway Jimbo is a dickhead so why should I dedicate the amount of time required?) A callaborator would help address all but the third problem but this introduces a different way of working. Some people prefer to work on their own and if what they produce is only read by a couple of thousand people a year, then that's fine and only Jimbo's lackeys find it a problem.
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 1:53pm) The articles I worked on were all highly viewed and traditional when it came to academia.
However, most of the articles at FAC were obscure animals, obscure roads, obscure bands, obscure military battles, etc.
Dude. You're missing one: "OBSCURE SHIPS" and within that category "OBSCURE SUBMARINES" (ok, that maybe more of a GA problem)
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(Rhindle @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 2:37pm) The thing is how long can an FA keep its status without eroding? Subtle vandals can just water down that featured article and it can ultimately end up total crap because "anyone can edit." Sure, there are those who protect articles but how many years can you keep that up? If you can just say once an article reaches FA status it should be locked up and just be updated when something new comes up. However, the culture over there will never allow it.
I've thought about this before too - cynically, and all. So you get an article you care about to FA status. The thing to do THEN is to make a sockpuppet and start vandalizing your own FA. Then use your legitimate account to request protection. And usually once that's in place, the admins loose interest so it can be protected more or less indefinitely (if someone removes it, go back to step one). It's sort of a "ghetto flagged revisions" for a system that refuses to implement them but badly needs'em. Of course I've never done anything like this, but it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:06am) Why would that matter to a student? It isn't a page on home ownership, and even if it was it couldn't be a guide. And why would homes in India be the same as homes here? What is the point of that question?
Do you think Wikipedia is just for students? Just for people like you? You probably agree with this "so-called" FA editor (who is probably pissed that she wasn't mentioned in TCO's report at all), whose response to the points made in the report - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...nt_articles.pdf was this: QUOTE "I think one of the most important retorts to this is that people already know about most vital topics. I know what history is." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462151898 At least it got the FAC talk page going, which has been fairly dead lately. And the FAC director managed to drive Jimmy Butler's biology class from Wikipedia. He announced that he is pulling out at the end of the year, a professor whose class has been praised by others on wiki. QUOTE "We will be pulling out of Wikipedia in January. I will remain off the discussion pages and focus all my energies on the student's efforts. For many reasons (not specific to this current concern), this is the projects last year. So please accept my apology and I will soon drop off the radar." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462220611But of course, the FA director must have the LAST WORD, worrying that her skiing vacation next week will be disrupted by the poor teacher's student edits and will: QUOTE expect me to be available to help when I'm skiing next week (The FA director is a little self absorbed!) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462229131This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
thekohser |
|
Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined:
Member No.: 911
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:06am) QUOTE(thekohser @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 11:12pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 6:40pm) Furthermore, a page on "house" will not help high school and college kids get ahead. Pages that are truly encyclopedic and truly vital would.
Jeffrey, have you ever owned a house that wasn't handed down to you by your parents? Just askin'. Why would that matter to a student? It isn't a page on home ownership, and even if it was it couldn't be a guide. And why would homes in India be the same as homes here? What is the point of that question? You appear to assume that no high school students or college "kids" have any intention of entering the home building trade, and that they would have no use of a solid, encyclopedic background of the "house". I count among my local "grown up" friends, not one -- but two -- men who went to college and now own their own home construction and remodeling businesses. So, the point of my question was to perhaps flesh out a theory of mind about how you could say something so patently wrong, and I thought it may be because you've never had to make a large purchase of something like a house, and so you've never thought too carefully about the industry that makes houses appear across the land. I'll assume from your response that, no, you have never owned a house that wasn't handed down to you from your parents.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Malleus @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 4:34pm) QUOTE(chrisoff @ Wed 23rd November 2011, 8:41pm) Malleus brings up the Donner Party as a heavy hitter. But it was an article collaboration.
And in what way does that disqualify it from consideration? I have many FA/GAs that get more than the arbitrary 3000 page views per month. Not sure how many of them I've written this year though. Quite likely you'll tell me though. Malleus, the FAC director can't stand the idea of collaboration. See how she has gone off on the FAC talk page and else where, slinging insults at her "enemies", TCO, Jimmy Butler (the teacher), Piortus, and others? And even Sp33dyphil, just because he received praise! For example, she dings Jimmy Butler for this remark: QUOTE Collaboration is the key to the projects success. However, when we are successful, some argue that it is due to collaboration. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462196143Poor guy, he's just a teacher.
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(chrisoff @ Thu 24th November 2011, 8:33am)
Do you think Wikipedia is just for students?
I'd rather it be just for students than the current situation where the target audience is apparently sex crazed gay white males (or, at least, gay males turned on by white guys) who want to use the place as a hosting gallery/pick up site. Thekohser QUOTE You appear to assume that no high school students or college "kids" have any intention of entering the home building trade, .... Um... what? Why would the page "House" be about the "home building trade"? Why would people in India care about such a thing? Why would that even be "vital" or "encyclopedic"? Do college kids really care about the history of the home building trade and that it would actually help them get involved? Wikipedia isn't a "howto" guide. QUOTE . I count among my local "grown up" friends, not one -- but two -- men who went to college and now own their own home construction and remodeling businesses. You obviously have my personal information, so you would obviously know what business my brother is involved in. And no, he would not find Wikipedia any use in said business. He has actual books and resources, magazines, etc. Malleus Don't feed SBJ. Unfortunately, someone got drunk and decided to replace GBG with him. It makes sense since both are unbelievable asses who serve no purpose except to harass people. The problem is, I can no longer ignore him and neither can everyone else. He is a known stalker and yet no one on Wikipedia has a problem with him still being an admin. A Horse lost his ability to edit for doing far, far less than SBJ has done towards myself and others. This post has been edited by Ottava:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
You can bet that Iridescent (the Arbcom member who was kicked off Arbcom for "inactivity" just recently) is glad he disappeared! SandyGeorgia, the FAC director, is busy carrying on her raging venomous respond to TCO's "analysis" of FAC to Iridescent's talk page because of the "Waddesdon Road railway station" case study, a critique of the article Iridescent got passed recently in FAC, an example of "Obscure topics getting inadequate content review" at FAC. QUOTE *Waddesdon Road railway station†lacks reliable sources. *Only 5 pages are used to reference the 4 paragraphs of real station-related content. The impression is that these are stray facts from discussion of the Brill Tramway. *The sources are self-publishing hobbyists. etc. (from TCO study) QUOTE (SandyGeorge post on Iridescent talk page) No, I think it's [[User:TCO|someone else who misses that point]]; it reads like a "Manic Manifesto" from someone who pounded out a pseudoanalysis based on faulty assumptions, ... (She seems unable just to simply address the issues. Has to attack all critics personally. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=462203839
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(thekohser @ Thu 24th November 2011, 7:03pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 6:17pm) Why would the page "House" be about the "home building trade"? Why would people in India care about such a thing?
You're actually serious with these inane questions, aren't you? Wow. P.S. I have no idea who your brother is. I am serious. The page "house" would be about the ideas of house. Of all the things, the "home building trade" would be the least of things to make it onto the page. The page would most likely be filled with the thousands of -styles- of homes, and then what people would do with them (customs and the like). The history of homes would then come next. "Home building trade" would be on its own page, and would not be anything of such a high priority. And this is ignoring the idea that a "house" and a "home" are two very different things. And you did know who my brother was because you made references to him once before. Topics such as "home building trade" cannot adequately be put into an encyclopedia. There are trade magazines, construction/contractor books, etc. As I pointed out before, Wikipedia is not a howto guide. It is a reference tool.
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 25th November 2011, 12:36am) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 24th November 2011, 9:25pm) And you did know who my brother was because you made references to him once before.
I did? Where? Meanwhile, what do you make of this attempt to make an encyclopedia article about the history of construction? That doesn't belong on Wikipedia, right? .... How do you get that from me saying that the page -House- shouldn't be deemed "vital"? According to the page you just linked, it is not part of a WikiProject nor ranked as anything. It is also not the page you were talking about before. Also only has 3,318 views. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. o.o;; Carbuncle QUOTE I rate this trolling 2 out of 10. For one thing, if you're trying to get people stirred up with your homophobic comments, you're in the wrong place. For another, this reads more like a fantasy of yours than a description of WP.
Um, how did you miss that it was an obvious reference to the 1,000 images of white penises? By the way, I think it is kinda amusing that you assume that all homosexuality equal horny white exhibitionists. This post has been edited by Ottava:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
Some FAC pros are rising to the occasion! At least one contributor of heavy hitting articles, not just trivia are way more open minded than the defensive FAC clique:
User:Truthkeeper88 is replying to TCO in an open minded way! And actually submitted one of her FAC's to an outside expert in the field for her aricle on Edmund Evans and got the response: "My pleasure! Congratulations on your exemplary piece, rich and full." And on her talk page, responds in a way that doesn't shut down the dialogue. Not defensive, not bragging but seeking to understand! Was even willing to interact with TCO when he was posting as an IP.
And others also, were open-minded, willing to consider and engage:
Hurricanehink says "I'll admit, being called a star collector made me more inclined to work on Hurricane Andrew, so for me at least, I welcome some criticism." He was motivated by the critique, not moved to be defensive.
Ceoil engages TCO in a real conversation on TCO's talk page than looks to lead to greater understanding of what is going on. A true exchange of ideas! And Ceoil didn't take TCO labelling him as a "dabbler" as a reason not to take analysis seriously. Rather, he accepted the label with good humour and opened the channels of communication
Hawkeye7 brings up real concerns in an open way, seeking feedback on the FAC talk page.
Carcharoth (perpetually out grouper among the FAC regulars) brings up concerns about the need for leadership in FAC on the talk page.
Resolute is offering good suggestions and advice on the FAC talk to reach out to other editors and be helpful to them in their efforts to produce a FA. Attempting to enlarge the small circle. Constructive! A Join Us message!
Perhaps this will be a FAC discussion with a wider group of participants than the usual crowd. New ideas! New blood! Real discussion without defensiveness.
Other signs of hope! TCO did a massive analysis. Good will come if the information can be used dispassionately, if the FAC regulars are willing to interact and don't shut down all chances of real discussion.
*P.S. But SandyGeorgia, don't waste all your energy trying to sandbag TCO and other "enemies" (as you perceive Kiefer.Wolfowitz to be). Like you are now doing by posting on Nikkimaria regarding a DYK request by KW and his post on TCO's page. Drop the stick!
This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
So SandyGeorgia responds by insulting TCO's balls, "you've got such big ones they must be scraping the ground by now"Is personal attack the best way to address real concerns brought up by an editor who worked hard on a 104-slide presentation, gathering and summarizing data meant to aid FAC by addressing some of its issues? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...cles.pdf&page=1SandyGeorgia is out of control. She has made 12 posts to TCO's page in the two hours, all of it attacking! Look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contr...ns/SandyGeorgiaThis while taking pot shots at well meaning others on the side: "noting Carcharoth's unique ability to offend even when he's not trying to"And gratuitious pouncing on poor JimmyButler, the North Carolina high school teacher: "JimmyButler, when given the chance to present some of the reasons his collaborations worked, was unable to do so, saying he had no idea why his collaborations worked, and wouldn't present some simple data for comparison to the large projects that aren't working."plus carpet bombing his talk page with criticisms after he apologized to her for any way he may have offended her and made it clear he had left and would post no more and would conduct no more classes using Wikipedia. Is this sort of rampage carpet bombing demeaning other helpful to Wikipedia? Demeaning Tony1 and the SignPost always a target for SandyGeorgia. Battleground mentality is not best for the community and not the best side to show the relatively uninitiated professionals who were mistakenly led to believe that Wikipedia would be a good student experience. She is too busy raving about TCO to make any sense: I had a lovely Thanksgiving ... TCO is overimpressed with his own importance and the effect he imagines he has on me (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) ... and how TCO (because of his impulsive nature) has shot even his own vague goals in the foot ... (I personally don't think he has the ability to slow himself down enough or self-monitor enough for introspection, ... He will come and go as everything on the internet does, all the while fancying himself to be oh so important. Yes, I had a lovely Thanksgiving-- it's the internet, anyone can say anything, and that they will. And some people crave attention, any attention, even negative attention-- people like that are compelled to impulsivity when they fear they're being ignored. Pity. Is she mad??? This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
FAC sets a precedent of gender-based insults. FA editors have more "balls"? To TCO re his "analysis": Your testicles must scrape the ground--an unfortunate social faux pas, no? ... --[[User:Moni3|Moni3]] Is that setting an atmosphere on the FAC talk page that encourages open discussion and is welcoming to other editors perhaps new to FAC? Is that a non-sexist atmosphere desired by WMF, or is that a hyper-masculine one perpetuated by super aggressive female editors framing things in ways no male editor could get away with? A proper expression of anger, is that? This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
Jim |
|
New Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 39
Joined:
Member No.: 13,917
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Sun 27th November 2011, 12:37am) QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Fri 25th November 2011, 10:24pm) How many times do I have to tell you clowns: "the whole thing is broken"!
If they just took the FAs and GAs out and put them on a separate wiki, editable only by credentialed experts but readable by all, they would have a really nice encyclopedia right there. But that will never happen.
I talked to Durova about doing just that. Many of the FAs (like Simpsons articles) are worthless. But yeah. What about the Emperor, think he would be willing to host a second Wiki of just GAs/FAs on some standard topics and only have a few people able to edit it on request, and find out how well it does after a year or so? Ottava - for $200 I'll host you a wiki like this: http://www.designedandonline.com/wiki for 12 months. Hosting and coding are a couple of the things I do. You could also get that from many other places from up to $200 less than that - but with a less friendly/amenable host (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) You can have whatever user access and rights you like, and import whatever you like from WP. It won't work, though. I guarantee it, because of the reasons already stated. Forking is the easy part - any idiot can do that. You can have an exact copy of the Mona Lisa in your living room, but if nobody comes to see it only you will know. Maybe you'd be happy with that? Jim.
|
|
|
|
dogbiscuit |
|
Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined:
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015
|
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sat 26th November 2011, 1:51pm) QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 26th November 2011, 1:45pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 26th November 2011, 5:37am) I talked to Durova about doing just that. Many of the FAs (like Simpsons articles) are worthless. But yeah.
What about the Emperor, think he would be willing to host a second Wiki of just GAs/FAs on some standard topics and only have a few people able to edit it on request, and find out how well it does after a year or so?
Wasn't that kinda what Veropedia was all about? It was a noble effort on the part of Danny Wool, but it ultimately failed. Wikipedia works by the 'network effect'. For the whole thing to work, you need the Google effect, and for links to all the other parts of the encyclopedia to be available. Did Veropedia have that? I suspect the trouble was that its supporters had narrow interests, looked after their owned articles and then lost momentum as they were a pretty narrow clique and had no visibility outside the vaguely interested subset of Wikipedians. These other encyclopedias never have the manpower to get to critical mass. In the end, the trick would have to be that it would be a layer over the top of Wikipedia - so that dead links in the Veropedia were redirected to Wikipedia, and any links from that were intercepted and checked for the Veropedia. You would also want Google to take the Veropedia version in preference to the Wikipedia version which would require Google to hack its algorithms. If WMF owned both versions, then they could work such tricks, but anyone else would be at the whim of Google to try and make any impression - I doubt anyone much goes to Wikipedia through its main page.
|
|
|
|
Jim |
|
New Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 39
Joined:
Member No.: 13,917
|
QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Sun 27th November 2011, 1:20am) I doubt anyone much goes to Wikipedia through its main page.
Precisely. Spend as long as you like massaging your content and prettifying your pages - if you're not Google's "goto" friend you're not even in the race. Rarely does an internet phenomenon get replaced by something basically the same, but slightly prettier or more accurate - that's just not the way paradigms are redefined.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 26th November 2011, 1:45pm) Wasn't that kinda what Veropedia was all about? It was a noble effort on the part of Danny Wool, but it ultimately failed. Yeah, I think that is the direction FA is going. A walled garden for 150 or so editors to indulge their obscure interests on a solo basis. Most 2011 Featured Articles are sole nominations.(216 of the 253 FA passed from January through September 2011 were by a single nominators (no collaboration), mostly on obscure topics with low reader page views.) This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
Malleus |
|
Fat Cat
Group: Contributors
Posts: 1,682
Joined:
From: United Kingdom
Member No.: 8,716
|
QUOTE(chrisoff @ Sat 26th November 2011, 6:25pm) QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 26th November 2011, 1:45pm) Wasn't that kinda what Veropedia was all about? It was a noble effort on the part of Danny Wool, but it ultimately failed. Yeah, I think that is the direction FA is going. A walled garden for 150 or so editors to indulge their obscure interests on a sole basis. Most 2011 Featured Articles are solo nominations.(216 of the 253 2011 FA through September were by solo contributors. You confuse sole nominators with sole contributors.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Malleus @ Sat 26th November 2011, 1:28pm) You still don't seem to have quite got it. How are you defining collaborators?
According to the study, the information on collaborators is drawn from "Source WP:BFAN, counting collaborations with full credit" I don't know where that page is. Can't find it, so can't evaluate it. I checked some individual FAs mentioned. Especially if the article was on an obscure topic, usually the FA editor either originated the article, or contributed the overwhelming number of edits. In a block buster such as Parkinson's disease, the editor contributed over 900 edits with the next-in-line editor contributing 200. The first editor also took the article through GA and a couple of FACs.
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
I'm confused as to why people would mention Veropedia - 1. the articles aren't really worked on once they are over there, 2. they aren't really built by experts, and 3. They don't really reflect the best articles (especially when the standards were so low back when it started).
A good idea would be to monitor the FAC and GAN articles as they come in, or those that should be either. Once you find good candidates on solid topics, you take the articles, you have an expert or too add to it and make it well balanced, then have a core group of copyeditors fix it up, standardize it, etc.
Basically, it would take the articles that the Wiki system can pump out to about 60-70% "good" and bring them the last 100%. You can especially fix errors like the popculture obsession, unreadably huge pages, etc. and show how the articles are fixed on a talk page comparison.
The benefits would be to keep them from being degraded, ensure that they are all high quality, and polish them to a recognizably good standard. Veropedia didn't do that.
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Sat 26th November 2011, 4:39pm) I'm confused as to why people would mention Veropedia - 1. the articles aren't really worked on once they are over there, 2. they aren't really built by experts, and 3. They don't really reflect the best articles (especially when the standards were so low back when it started).
A good idea would be to monitor the FAC and GAN articles as they come in, or those that should be either. Once you find good candidates on solid topics, you take the articles, you have an expert or too add to it and make it well balanced, then have a core group of copyeditors fix it up, standardize it, etc.
Basically, it would take the articles that the Wiki system can pump out to about 60-70% "good" and bring them the last 100%. You can especially fix errors like the popculture obsession, unreadably huge pages, etc. and show how the articles are fixed on a talk page comparison.
The benefits would be to keep them from being degraded, ensure that they are all high quality, and polish them to a recognizably good standard. Veropedia didn't do that.
All the wails and cries from the "FAC editors" on TFAC because TCO expressed some ideas regarding how FAC could be improved indicate that these editors are very invested in things as they are. They care deeply about the babbles the receive, the credit, and their control over "their" articles. They would leave en masse if any such "system" as you suggest were put into place. FAC is not an altrustic place. People bring "their" articles for the "stars" and recognition and award counting. And they want to maintain control. They are editing for themselves and are now warring over their turf, against the perceived enemies of WMF, TCO, JimmyBulter and anyone else who has dares to raise a voice. FAC belongs to them! How dare TCO! He will be plundered and revenge will be extracted, you can be sure. FAC editors are not primarily looking to benefit the readers of Wikipedia at all. The fact the very few read their articles is immaterial to them. They are not interested in changing this. Remember, the majority of FACs are not collaborations but are solo products of one editor. FAC is a walled garden, and the FA editors feel they are a privileged class within Wikipedia and should be treated as such. This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
It's just strange why the "FAC regulars" would rather expend enormous bandwidth attacking TCO and then attacking a SignPost editor Skomorokh who said to Moni3 that her comment to the SignPost was Out of line: QUOTE Skomorokh says to Mon3 of her attack on him and on the SignPost opinion page: QUOTE As SandyGeorgia told the DYK people: QUOTE After all, FA editors list their achievements on their user pages and the editors are ranked by number of FAs at WP:BFAN. FA editors get their articles displayed in a big chunk on the main page (however obscure the article). They have a method of determining what is a FA, a cumbersome process that allows only "FA editors" special privileges (they can nominate more that one article at a time, their comments are given more weight). This gives "FA editor" a leg up in racking up more FAs. So why are they "hurt" by being named in TCOs analysis, when they advertise their FAs at every turn, rate themselves by number of FAs, and mention "their" articles at every chance? Is there no accountability for all the main page exposure they receive? The FA director was appointed many years ago, apparently for life. He exercises no leadership but is given deference. One of the three "FA delegates" SandyGeorgia, has more "power" than the other two and is given deference by all "FA editors". After all, when you are busy pushing your own FAs, you can hardly afford to alienate her. That would be suicide. Why aren't the positions at FA decided openly, by elections for example, as TCO suggests? Why are SandyGeorgia and Moni3 posting personal attacks and derogatory statements about TCO thither and yon but refusing to give a reasoned opinion to the SignPost? Why are the FA people not accountable to anyone else? Why is nothing out in the open? Does SandyGeorgia's attack the SignPost because it won't do her bidding? She can't bully them as she does everyone else? This post has been edited by chrisoff:
|
|
|
|
mbz1 |
|
Senior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 461
Joined:
Member No.: 25,791
|
QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 5th January 2012, 5:17pm)
Wikipedia is a rudderless ship. There's a much-needed place for benign dictatorship, but not Jimbo's naive and mindless dictatorship.
Would you repeat this on wiki (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) BTW you said a few times that your block will end only, when you decide, and only, if there is change on wikipedia. Your block has ended, but was there a change? I did not notice. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)
|
|
|
|
Zoloft |
|
May we all find solace in our dreams.
Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,332
Joined:
From: Erewhon
Member No.: 16,621
|
QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 5th January 2012, 9:43am) QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 5th January 2012, 12:17pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 5th January 2012, 2:51pm) QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 5th January 2012, 8:05am) and if given the chance would be just as tyrannical and wrongheaded as she is. Isn't that the whole point of Wikipedia? If it weren't for the tyranny and the wrongheadedness, I would say there would only be a few users. Wikipedia is a rudderless ship. There's a much-needed place for benign dictatorship, but not Jimbo's naive and mindless dictatorship. Can't we just appoint someone like Prince William? He has the royal heritage and would seem to be more appropriate to the role of a monarch with his own religion. Then we here in the Colonies could again have all the fun of dressing up as Native Americans, throwing tea over the side of a ship in Boston harbor, loading flintlock rifles with black powder, and unfairly hiding behind trees.
|
|
|
|
Ottava |
|
Ãœber Pokemon
Group: Contributors
Posts: 2,917
Joined:
Member No.: 7,328
|
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Thu 5th January 2012, 8:52pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 5th January 2012, 9:43am) QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 5th January 2012, 12:17pm) QUOTE(Ottava @ Thu 5th January 2012, 2:51pm) QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 5th January 2012, 8:05am) and if given the chance would be just as tyrannical and wrongheaded as she is. Isn't that the whole point of Wikipedia? If it weren't for the tyranny and the wrongheadedness, I would say there would only be a few users. Wikipedia is a rudderless ship. There's a much-needed place for benign dictatorship, but not Jimbo's naive and mindless dictatorship. Can't we just appoint someone like Prince William? He has the royal heritage and would seem to be more appropriate to the role of a monarch with his own religion. Then we here in the Colonies could again have all the fun of dressing up as Native Americans, throwing tea over the side of a ship in Boston harbor, loading flintlock rifles with black powder, and unfairly hiding behind trees. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) But isn't that kinda how the WMF works now? After all, the gathered protests, mobs, etc., just seem like the desire to find any excuse to act that way. Everyone seems to want to use the Wiki for their own pet protests lately.
|
|
|
|
Malleus |
|
Fat Cat
Group: Contributors
Posts: 1,682
Joined:
From: United Kingdom
Member No.: 8,716
|
QUOTE(mbz1 @ Thu 5th January 2012, 5:25pm) QUOTE(Malleus @ Thu 5th January 2012, 5:17pm)
Wikipedia is a rudderless ship. There's a much-needed place for benign dictatorship, but not Jimbo's naive and mindless dictatorship.
Would you repeat this on wiki (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif) BTW you said a few times that your block will end only, when you decide, and only, if there is change on wikipedia. Your block has ended, but was there a change? I did not notice. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) There are many things you don't notice grasshopper.
|
|
|
|
SB_Johnny |
|
It wasn't me who made honky-tonk angels
Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,128
Joined:
Member No.: 8,272
|
[ Note: scads of posts keeping us up to date on Sandy Georgia's evildoings are now here. ]
|
|
|
|
Mister Die |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 88
Joined:
Member No.: 75,644
|
As others have said, the big problem with Featured Articles is that, rather than being treated like articles which are truly informative, well-written and well-organized, they basically just get a "this is a nice article" stamp on them and, well, that's about it save for the chance of getting them on the frontpage. I feel that featured articles should be treated as ones which have basically achieved a "this really can't get any better than it is" status and therefore should be locked with any changes made either by the editor(s) responsible for making it a featured article in the first place, or done via the talk pages on a well-informed basis.
One big problem with featured articles as a concept on Wikipedia, though, is that they generally contradict what Wikipedia is trying to accomplish. They aren't done by tons of users over the course of years, but are almost always achieved either by one single user or by two or three working closely together on a subject they genuinely know a lot about through actual research, and therefore these articles do not attain their status via the principle of "everyone can edit," but on the basis of "one, two or three smart persons have created/edited this article and no one has come along to make it suck yet."
There are probably a fair amount of people who might be willing to take a shot at creating/editing articles and striving for featured status, but who don't feel like it since it'd just decay under 30+ anonymous individuals throughout successive years.
This post has been edited by Mister Die:
|
|
|
|
chrisoff |
|
Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 199
Joined:
Member No.: 17,248
|
|
|
|
|
Mister Die |
|
Junior Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 88
Joined:
Member No.: 75,644
|
QUOTE Today's featured article "Cartman Gets an Anal Probe" is the pilot episode of the animated television series South Park. No comment.
|
|
|
|
radek |
|
Ãœber Member
Group: Regulars
Posts: 699
Joined:
Member No.: 15,651
|
QUOTE(lilburne @ Tue 7th February 2012, 5:26am) QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Tue 7th February 2012, 9:28am) QUOTE(Mister Die @ Mon 6th February 2012, 7:23pm) QUOTE Today's featured article "Cartman Gets an Anal Probe" is the pilot episode of the animated television series South Park. No comment. (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) "Respect my Authoritah" and "Screw you guys I'm going home" sort of sums up the entire community. As I said before, there are several editors who I *always* read in "Cartmen voice" in my head when I have to deal with their comments. It just makes so much more sense out of the whole "project".
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
| |