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_ The ArbCom-L Leaks _ ArbCom is broken, Jimbo's response

Posted by: gomi

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=436347832

QUOTE
I have long thought that a good solution would be some intermediate courts ...
but then goes right to this idea:
QUOTE
... or - as I am now thinking - randomized juries ...


Now where have I heard that idea? Yes, Kelly Martin proposed it http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=22026#.

It won't work though. Wikipidiots are too inbred.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

I just wrote Jimbo demanding that he give me fair credit for the idea:

QUOTE
Jimmy,

Please note for the record that I have proposed the idea of randomized juries on Wikipedia several times, dating back to at least 2007 (http://nonbovine-ruminations.blogspot.com/2007/08/meatpuppets-elitism-and.html). The proposal was discussed at some length on Steve Dunlop’s now-defunct Wikback forum, and in other places. Others have carried forward the discussion onto Wikipedia (see, e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Arbitration_Committee&diff=prev&oldid=222591442), and it is a perennial discussion on Wikipedia Review (http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=ST&f=82&t=20080&hl=jury&view=findpost&p=124676, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=26547&hl=jury&view=findpost&p=193779, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=31443&hl=jury&view=findpost&p=260038, http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=32814&hl=jury&view=findpost&p=267191).

All I ask is that you give me due credit for the idea.

Regards,

Kelly

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(gomi @ Sun 26th June 2011, 10:06pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=436347832
QUOTE
I have long thought that a good solution would be some intermediate courts ...
but then goes right to this idea:
QUOTE
... or - as I am now thinking - randomized juries ...


Now where have I heard that idea? Yes, Kelly Martin proposed it http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=22026#.

It won't work though. Wikipidiots are too inbred.

I think you make a fundamental mistake in believing that "Wikipidiots" are a single breed.

Posted by: powercorrupts

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Sun 26th June 2011, 11:46pm) *

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.

Posted by: powercorrupts

QUOTE(Malleus @ Sun 26th June 2011, 11:50pm) *

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Sun 26th June 2011, 11:46pm) *

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.


All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

Posted by: EricBarbour

yecch.gif to both of you.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Mon 27th June 2011, 12:06am) *

QUOTE(Malleus @ Sun 26th June 2011, 11:50pm) *

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Sun 26th June 2011, 11:46pm) *

It's a scary word Randomize, coming from the King of Rand. The thing about randomising is that you cannot get a truly random number, which is all part of his great deceit. Jimbo has already been talking about trusted Super Editors with special powers, and of course even more powers for his Admin Class of self-breeding self-interested people - sold to the benefactors/workers as (cult-empowered) citizens with 'mops and buckets', which for me is the coldly-sentimentalised and bold-lined imagery of Stalinist propaganda.

The whole 'Project' is Randomization in action. It's not based on discerning (or approaching) any singularity of meanings (or 'truths', as we know), or on being as ''objective'' as possible in appraising any subject – it is based on Objectivism – isolated go-getters battling under minimum regulation but tight and heavily-policed rules which always benefits the strongest wills, who can break through the walls when they are given the means. It's a production line of Jimformation - not an encyclopedia of anything.

And for what? The age-old dreams of power and profit, sold by Jimbo for the advancement of his own aspirations - to expand his insatiable ego into the essentially emotionless void of the world as he sees it. Just like all the other tyrants that greedy selfish people can't help themselves from worshipping till their fingers are burnt. He calls his power-mongering a passion for Rand, I call it being another intensely fucked-up Super Alpha the world can really do without.

For fuck's sake, grow up.


All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.

A translation into English would be good.

Posted by: Craftyminion

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Mon 27th June 2011, 9:06am) *

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.


Rod? I've always thought of Malley as being Giano's nastier, evil twin.

Posted by: Malleus

QUOTE(Craftyminion @ Mon 27th June 2011, 1:49am) *

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Mon 27th June 2011, 9:06am) *

All those green peas Malleus, and the fields of corn. What are your dreams I wonder? You huff, puff and growl along but - like your mirror image Rod - you are logged-in and pumping away over half your day. You never got to be an admin (despite the two attempts which you have the gall to pretend you were somehow not really involved in), so where do you get your buzz from? The power of handling information? The endless drama? The personal notoriety? You say you know it's a shit hole, though can't seem to see it where FA is concerned. You seldom seem to enjoy it. It must be the power it all in combination gives.


Rod? I've always thought of Malley as being Giano's nastier, evil twin.

That's the nicest thing I've heard today. Thanks!

Posted by: SB_Johnny

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=436808884#Arbcom_and_WMF is interesting... laugh.gif

Posted by: Casliber

QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 29th June 2011, 5:50pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=436808884#Arbcom_and_WMF is interesting... laugh.gif


errr, why?

Posted by: Abd

QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 29th June 2011, 4:12am) *
QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 29th June 2011, 5:50pm) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=436808884#Arbcom_and_WMF is interesting... laugh.gif
errr, why?
Yeah, Jimbo's answer is very standard and expected and appears to be accurate as well.

It's an excuse for the WMF and Jimbo to step back and do nothing even when they see blatant abuse. In fact, there is nothing set up for the "community" to develop a true consensus and coherently express it, and attempts to set up structures that might have led to this have been crushed by "the community," which, in practice, is a warped subset of the real editorial community.

That's a result of the institutional structures and practices that Jimbo set up or allowed when he was still taking an active role.

Posted by: Sololol

QUOTE(Abd @ Wed 29th June 2011, 3:26pm) *

It's an excuse for the WMF and Jimbo to step back and do nothing even when they see blatant abuse. In fact, there is nothing set up for the "community" to develop a true consensus and coherently express it, and attempts to set up structures that might have led to this have been crushed by "the community," which, in practice, is a warped subset of the real editorial community.

That's a result of the institutional structures and practices that Jimbo set up or allowed when he was still taking an active role.

As he said the last time this happened "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_44#Arbitration_Committee_mailing_list_being_leaked [after the fact]." Nothings substantially changed since that last incident. It's sort of miraculous that all of this didn't happen sooner.

Posted by: EricBarbour

Interesting, how divided the comments have been. It shows a deep schism in the ever-glorious "community". Count this with the http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=34170 over the behaviour of one admin/editor who has done a lot of worthwhile work, and a lot of stupid warfare and backstabbing. I presume that Wikipedia's userbase will never agree on Cirt's value as an admin, and that such schisms will only worsen with time.....

Sometimes, that place needs a "benevolent dictator". Jimbo ain't it, he's just a camp follower now, who enjoys basking in the media glow. "Who, me, make a decision???" yak.gif

Posted by: powercorrupts

I was going to make a thread of this, but I'll quote it here.

QUOTE

Arbcom and WMF
(from Jimbo's talk)

What exactly is the relationship between the Arbcom and the WMF? Does the Arbcom have any kind of corporate standing? --Prioryman

Aside from being on the functionaries mailing list and some current or former arbs doing various kinds of work with the organization, nothing official. They have lines of communication that allow them to communicate concerns to the WMF and cooperate on certain issues, but that's about it AFAIK. --Throwaway85

The Wikimedia Foundation respects and supports the traditional arrangements of the community, which often predate the Foundation. I don't know what the phrase "corporate standing" means. --Jimbo Wales

If I had a guess, I would say they are asking if ArbCom has the ability to speak on behalf the WMF. Or simply, if ArbCom's judgements are to be assumed as having the support of the foundation. I am presuming the answer is no. --Resolute

Right, so for each of those questions in turn. First, ArbCom does not have the ability to speak on behalf of the Foundation. Second, the Foundation supports our traditional constitutional arrangements (which, in the English Wikipedia, means a whole set of complex institutions and traditions, including my role, the role of ArbCom, etc.) in a general way, but of course these are community processes, not Foundation processes.--Jimbo Wales

And on a related but possibly more topical note, will the Foundation cooperate with ArbCom and the community on putting in order our policies/practices on private data protection and retention? --Kotniski

I'm sure the Foundation is willing to help out, but it is unclear to me what should be changed in this case. It seems that the breach was not in any systems of the Wikimedia Foundation (at least, that it my understanding so far). What policies/practices do you recommend that would necessitate the Foundation's help? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really interested in thinking this through.) --Jimbo Wales



He uses the word "traditional" twice. Personally, I still stand by http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=34155&view=findpost&p=277947 The guy sounds like a classic dictator to me.

Posted by: Kelly Martin

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Wed 29th June 2011, 3:30pm) *
The guy sounds like a classic dictator to me.
Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

Posted by: EricBarbour

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 29th June 2011, 1:35pm) *
Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. biggrin.gif

Posted by: LessHorrid vanU

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 29th June 2011, 9:43pm) *

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 29th June 2011, 1:35pm) *
Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. biggrin.gif


Not that there are a shortage of errant Pucks to be found, either.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(LessHorrid vanU @ Wed 29th June 2011, 1:57pm) *

QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 29th June 2011, 9:43pm) *

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 29th June 2011, 1:35pm) *
Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

He's the Oberon of Wikipedia. And Titania is whoever will put up with him this week. biggrin.gif


Not that there are a shortage of errant Pucks to be found, either.

And more than one Faery Queene, for sure. And a Sycorax in Canada. And a few Ariels (some of whom have been freed and defected to WR, or else disappeared). And several Calibans. Ban, ban, Caliban.

"Two of these fellows you must know and own; this thing of darkness I acknowledge mine."

--Jimbo, when asked about Essjay

Posted by: SB_Johnny

QUOTE(Casliber @ Wed 29th June 2011, 4:12am) *

QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 29th June 2011, 5:50pm) *

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=436808884#Arbcom_and_WMF is interesting... laugh.gif

errr, why?

You have to read http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&curid=9870625&diff=436928805&oldid=436926608, my dear. happy.gif

Posted by: Abd

QUOTE(SB_Johnny @ Wed 29th June 2011, 6:18pm) *
You have to read http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&curid=9870625&diff=436928805&oldid=436926608, my dear. happy.gif
Well, this is that edit:
QUOTE
:::::I have the authority to override decisions of ArbCom. Do you have a specific case that you'd like me to review? I treat all appeals seriously, but beyond that I'm always happy to listen to arguments that something was wrongly decided. Note well that "wrongly decided" doesn't mean "I would have voted differently" but rather serious breaches of protocol/ethics/etc. leading to a wrong decision.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 21:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
He's right, he does have the authority. He'd also need the cojones. My suggestion to Jimbo would be that he, instead, consider and create a better process that would not depend on his individual authority. ArbComm is highly inefficient and erratic. Yes, this could start by an examination of decisions, but doing it on his talk page would be a mess. Rather, establishing an appeal process that would make recommendations, in a way that guarantees full consideration by neutral parties, could work.

But wait, isn't that the function of ArbComm? Sure, it is, except that process to do this, reliably, was never established. I saw ArbComm work, in RfAr/Abd and JzG, and it fooled me. I expected fair treatment, then. Mistake. When two dozen editors piled in, in RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley, editors who were, to me, obviously closely aligned, ArbComm was overwhelmed, and made the knee-jerk assumption that anyone who is upsetting so many editors must be disruptive, and they really didn't care about proof.

And they never looked at who was, later, filing all those arbitration enforcement reports. Many of those reports were truly preposterous and were dismissed, but even some preposterous reports were acted upon by a certain admin. Nobody noticed that, nobody objected. And that's just my case, which I use only because it's the one I know best. I saw similar happen to others.

There is a way to guarantee fair process without demanding that everyone take part. But it would take a realization that it's needed and desirable, and, my observation, few, if any, care enough to do it.

Posted by: Cedric

QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 29th June 2011, 3:35pm) *

QUOTE(powercorrupts @ Wed 29th June 2011, 3:30pm) *
The guy sounds like a classic dictator to me.
Jimbo has long wished to be royalty, or at least nobility, a status fairly severely hampered by having been born in the United States, of nondescript Southern white parents. His role as "GodKing" of the English Wikipedia gives him some small flavor of the royal status he so deeply craves.

As I said recently somewhere else, children likes to play at doing grown-up things. This is no exception.

I have long suspected that Jimbo views himself as Wikipedia's Edward VII, a monarch of whom little good was initially expected, but who turned out to have a surprisingly astute grasp on his own position and of British and European politics. Just as Edward was "The Uncle of Europe", Jimbo apparently aspires to be "The Uncle of the Internet".

Frankly, the only resemblance I see between Jimbo and Edward is the premature aging and ever expanding waistline. That, and inappropriate assignations that continue well into middle age.

Posted by: Sololol

This is a very poor display of CYA spin by http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=436884707:

QUOTE

I'm sure the Foundation is willing to help out, but it is unclear to me what should be changed in this case. It seems that the breach was not in any systems of the Wikimedia Foundation (at least, that it my understanding so far). What policies/practices do you recommend that would necessitate the Foundation's help?

Let's get this straight: despite Jimbo's (and the WMF) power to overrule, dissolve and restrict Arbcom ("must identify to WMF ...") none of this is his problem, he couldn't have imposed the marginal security steps that people have been suggesting for years and (made clear in his further posts) he thinks things are generally fine. Oh, and that Arbcom doesn't have any real relationship with WMF so please don't sue us for what our foolish and careless volunteers did. Unbelievable chutzpah.

ArbCom has some serious structural flaws that should be remedied and Jimbo is the only person who can realistically implement them. While I have my fun taking swipes at them, the leak does reveal that most Arbs are conscientious volunteers doing a very difficult job with little support (...except when they aren't, of course). I'd hoped this leak would be the catalyst for reform, maybe some transparency, but the God-King has done everything short of renting his own bus to throw his volunteers under.