An Uprising On Meta!, Sire, the peasants are revolting... Options

[NuclearWarfare]

I've suggested that Larry Sanger might now be given the founder bit as well, I assume he would be willing to be bound by the appropriate restrictions about disclosure.

You're optimistic.

[Somey]

You're optimistic.

Well, this is the guy who thinks cold fusion is just a few years away, after all.

Anyway, there's no point in going overboard and making all sorts of wacky suggestions that have no chance of being adopted. This isn't glasnost - if Jimbo does a good thing every once in a while, even if it's reversible, it's best to just congratulate him and move on. Besides, what would Larry Sanger do with those kinds of access rights?

Okay, that's actually a good question, but like I say, it's a step-by-step process. They do something right, people see that the whole edifice doesn't suddenly collapse, maybe it gets them thinking that doing things right isn't such a bad idea. It's how progress is made!

[Abd]

You're optimistic.

Well, this is the guy who thinks cold fusion is just a few years away, after all.

Just a few years away from what? It was discovered in 1989, by the mid 1990's the evidence was overwhelming (heat/helium ratio, especially, which answered the major objections that had been raised). What some Wikipedia editors and others who don't read the journals think doesn't matter. But as to commercial viability, it might never be viable. It's difficult. Fleischmann said it would take a Manhattan-scale project to make this practical, and he may have been underestimating the difficulty.

Anyway, there's no point in going overboard and making all sorts of wacky suggestions that have no chance of being adopted. This isn't glasnost - if Jimbo does a good thing every once in a while, even if it's reversible, it's best to just congratulate him and move on. Besides, what would Larry Sanger do with those kinds of access rights?

I don't care. I suggested it for the symbolism, a courtesy. What will Jimbo do with them?

Okay, that's actually a good question, but like I say, it's a step-by-step process. They do something right, people see that the whole edifice doesn't suddenly collapse, maybe it gets them thinking that doing things right isn't such a bad idea. It's how progress is made!

If the survival of the WMF family of wikis depended on Jimbo going in and pressing Delete, it was lost already. I'm suspecting plan here. Conscious or subconscious.

[EricBarbour]

Eh, whatever. Anyone with root shell access (10 people) or anyone with steward access (33 people) could give him the powers back.....By the way, it seems like a terrible idea to give so many people so much access.

No shit. A corporation which depended on a serverfarm for its very existence would have very strict controls on sysop access. Wikimedia violates a long list of good, industry-established IT practices every minute of every day....because they "trust people". Weird people, for the most part. Random anonymous freaks, political and religious cranks, paid shills, POV pushers, you name it.

This is where the libertarian ideal meets the hacker ethos.

Remember, we have NO WAY of knowing how many times WMF servers have been compromised in the past. They do not report such intrusions, and I feel it is damned certain they have had some. It's like breaking into Google servers--a big fat world-famous target. You could ask the people who run ED, for instance.

If none of those 43 people are willing to support him on an issue, what good would it be to have a backdoor?

He can crash it. Even if the developers rode shotgun on the servers 24/7, they probably couldn't keep it going in the face of a determined vandal with root access.

[Somey]

Just a few years away from what? It was discovered in 1989, by the mid 1990's the evidence was overwhelming...

No need to be so sensitive, Abd! He said "optimistic," not "delusional." I guess I meant a few years away from being a major part of the power grid, but I've probably misunderstood your position on that, so I apologize.

I don't care. I suggested it for the symbolism, a courtesy.

Right, I was just concerned that it might be taken as a form of... dang, I'm not even sure there's a word for it, or even a viable analogy. It just seems a bit untoward, is all I'm sayin'.

If the survival of the WMF family of wikis depended on Jimbo going in and pressing Delete, it was lost already. I'm suspecting plan here. Conscious or subconscious.

It's a positive step, Abd - that's all it is, if you ask me. Now, they can choose to take more steps forward, or a step or two back like they usually do, or maybe nothing whatsoever. Actually, they could choose to do quite a lot of things, but I doubt anyone really believes this is some sort of major turning point. So... basically, I'm adopting a "wait-and-see attitude."

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

I don't care. I suggested it for the symbolism, a courtesy. What will Jimbo do with them?

You are absolutely correct.

If the WMF really want to 'win' in PR stakes, it is precisely what they should do ... to be seen to adopt and incorporate their sternest critic and "heal" the wound.

As with Cold Fusion, it is all classical alchemic stuff ... separation, purification, re-amalgamation

[Moulton]

I was just concerned that it might be taken as a form of... dang, I'm not even sure there's a word for it, or even a viable analogy.

Pollyanish?

Apocalypse soon.

This was a stunning reversal of the position Jimbo took just a short time ago. He blinked.

He had no choice but to blink. He wasn't working from a position of integrity on the fundamental values or from a realistic model of prevailing community politics.

[Peter Damian]

So where are we now? Many of the images that Wales deleted have now been restored per 'community consensus'.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...es&month=&year=

And many that have not yet deleted are likely to be restored per discussion among the 'community' here

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&oldid=39031916

Where does this leave Wales? His main concern, as I reported yesterday, seems to be the threat by Fox news to contact actual or potential donors to Wikipedia. There is also the concern (which is much more of a threat) that school boards could enable filtering on Wikipedia so it is no longer accessible in primary (grade school) or secondary schools. This would have a seriously damaging effect on donations, as well as on Wikipedia's user base, of course.

So, given the actions of the previous two days, his concerns are likely to remain.

[CharlotteWebb]

There is also the concern (which is much more of a threat) that school boards could enable filtering on Wikipedia so it is no longer accessible in primary (grade school) or secondary schools. This would have a seriously damaging effect on donations, as well as on Wikipedia's user base, of course.

I figure a drop-off in juvenile participation will be interpreted as one less argument against filling the servers with more porn, frankly.

Nice shot, man.

[Moulton]

So where are we now? Many of the images that Wales deleted have now been restored per 'community consensus'.

For the collection of images which were on Jimbo's list of deletions, we need a graph of net deletions as a function of time.

For example, of the 77 deletions Jimbo made on May 7th (some of which may be duplicates), 48 are currently still redlinked as of this moment.

What's needed is to construct a graph of the net number of redlinked images as a function of time.

[Peter Damian]

I figure a drop-off in juvenile participation will be interpreted as one less argument against filling the servers with more porn, frankly.

That's fine, then it can become a porn site and thus NSFW and thus most of us can happily ignore it.

[radek]

What do you say, Somey? Does she have anything worth me bothering to look at, because all of her posts seem exactly the same.

I thought her explanation of Jimbo's reassignment of access rights, particularly with regard to the group permissions flag, was quite useful indeed?

I mean, let's face it, Ottava - you won't want to hear this, particularly from me, but lately you've been turning into precisely that thing you yourself most despise: Everyking.

Look up the article on Stockholm Syndrome (T-H-L-K-D) - it's all there, except for the physical kidnapping aspect.

I don't know, in fairness to Ottava, he's not quite the butt licker that everyking seems to be. In fairness to everyking, he didn't turn every thread into something about himself or his interests exclusively, turing this site into the Ottava Rima Review. Ottava still wins in my book.

[EricBarbour]

A chart? Meh.

How about a Cade Metz article on The Register?

[GlassBeadGame]

A chart? Meh.

How about a Cade Metz article on The Register?

What's missing in this article is a clear picture of the extent and degree that Wikipedians have resisted this effort to remove offensive content. The expressions of outrage, wheel warring against their own Godking, the many, many manipulations and dirty tricks that they made in defense of pornography and other offensive material. This then next needs to be related back to original defense that WMF made in the face of accusations of hosting pornography, which relied on the sound judgment of these very same pro-pornography rioters:

WMF's official response:

Our community of volunteer editors takes action to remove illegal material when such material is brought to its attention. The Wikimedia Foundation is proud of the Wikimedia editors who zealously work to keep the projects free of illegal material. If and when we are informed by law enforcement agencies of illegal content that has not already been removed through self-policing, we will take quick action to delete it.

WMF's general counsel Mike Godwin:

there is no doubt that there is a community of editors on Wikimedia Commons and elsewhere that takes pains not to post material that is clearly illegal. There is no evidence in Sanger's message that the community has failed in its efforts to make sure that the content of Wikimedia Commons is legal, at least in the context of the law applicable to Wikimedia Foundation as a hosting provider.

Mr. Wales himself:

I am proud to be able to say: if you search for pornographic terms at Wikipedia, you will not get pornography, you will get responsible explanations handled in a mature way.

[Moulton]

Jimbo "Hercules" Wales came in to hose out the Augean Stables, but his puerile fire hose just dribbled out more Kool Aid.

[SB_Johnny]

lol

[everyking]

Really? I don't remember whining about no longer having adminship.

And Everyking attacked people in a nasty way. Remember, I had a problem with him and LessHeard for their comments about Durova and others. I don't like nastiness. People can be heated in discussion but just attacking someone for no reason like they did for Durova and others was just cruel.

And Everyking was very anti Catholic, don't forget about that.

And I've always been adamant that Jimbo should desysop people. After all, he is the only one with the real power and at least he is under media scrutiny. Tyranny comes in the shadows.

1) I have adminship, so you won't hear me whining about it. You would've had the opportunity to once again scream and make a big scene and possibly sink the RfA, but sadly you got yourself banned a little while before that.

2) I have no idea what you're talking about. I have a perfectly cordial relationship with Durova--if you'll remember, she actually nominated me for adminship that one time when you went apoplectic.

3) I'm not "anti-Catholic" except in the general sense that I have no religious beliefs. I am against misogyny and homophobia, though--I think that's where you're getting confused.

[RDH(Ghost In The Machine)]

This RFC was started back in March over his Wikiversity purge, but was off to a slow and predictable start. As of Cinco de Mayo the proposal to remove his powers had only 23 supports v. 33 opposes.

25 to 36. Note that Adambro and R.T.G had stricken my vote and the vote of Emesee...

13. "The time has come," the Walrus said, "to speak of many things: abuse and snits and searing whacks, and clipping Jimbo's wings." —Moulton 20:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

14. as per others. although, ultimately, i could hardly care less at this point.. but in principle of possibly making some hopefully positive change in the world, and promoting my websites, i'll add my little vote here. EME44

If I'd know sooner I'd have cast a proxy vote for you.
I've done it before.


Interesting, my old foe Carndildo's vote is right after mine (#241). That is a good illustration of how widespread opposition to the Phony king of Wales has become across the political spectrum.

[Ottava]

1) I have adminship, so you won't hear me whining about it. You would've had the opportunity to once again scream and make a big scene and possibly sink the RfA, but sadly you got yourself banned a little while before that.

2) I have no idea what you're talking about. I have a perfectly cordial relationship with Durova--if you'll remember, she actually nominated me for adminship that one time when you went apoplectic.

3) I'm not "anti-Catholic" except in the general sense that I have no religious beliefs. I am against misogyny and homophobia, though--I think that's where you're getting confused.

See, the thing was you only passed RfA because people were tired of you whining about adminship. They figured that it would shut you up, which would outweigh all of the major policy violations and abuse you would commit. That took a lot of work on your part.

[RDH(Ghost In The Machine)]

But over the last 2 days support has soared to a whopping 240 v 77. The Deatheaters are actually getting swamped for a change.

Could this be the start of a long awaited revolution?

You have to be careful of revolutions. In 1979 I thought the end of the Shah of Iran was a Good Thing. But you have to look carefully at what replaces it.

For years now, I've been hearing this tired argument cum analogy from various apologists.
I heard it during Essjay and Marsden...in between them and afterwards.
Even if it might have been apt then, it is no longer.
So I ask you, where is the Ayatollah waiting in the wings?
Sue? Erik?
Do you think either of them would last more than 5 days if they tried to implement a theocratic dictatorship?

And please tell us what exactly does Jimmy do, again, that makes him so irreplaceable?
He is, at best, a figurehead- The Ronald McDonald of Wikiland.
He is, at worst, a public embarrassment and major obstacle to any real, positive change.
The cornerstone, if not the foundation stone, of Wikiland's outdated and dysfunctional governance system.

The shit! I'm totally disgusted with Jimbo's recent actions, it's plain vandalism and sysop flag abuse. They need to make Wikipedia children-friendly, huh? What the hell of a reason is that? Wikipedia is NO KIDDIE STUFF and had never been. We create damn encyclopedia here that naturally contains information about sex. We're not going to write some sanitized and censored stuff you can safely show to your 2-yr-old toddler. That totally won't do. Maybe Commons need to get some things cleaned up, but this must be done as a regular procedure — first discuss, then delete. No one can act as a dictator here in an international community. Ari Linn 02:52, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

My emphasis - this is where the 'revolution' is coming from.

And a fine, cheery-picked example it is, to back up your weak argument above.
If you bother to look more closely, you will see that this was a very broad based uprising from across Wiki's political spectrum.

As I noted to Moulton above, you had Carnildo (who never met an image he didn't want to delete) and myself on the same side!
Such is the magnitude of change since 2006.

And in the end, look who caved in and chose to be a floater upon the tide of history rather than flushed away by it.

This post has been edited by RDH(Ghost In The Machine): Wed 12th May 2010, 12:21am