FT2 defends Pedophile's "right" to edit, Uses Meta RfC to intimidate those saying it is wrong Options

[Ottava]

See here for the current drama. He wants to go at me because he doesn't like it that I pointed out that he defended pedophiles "right" to edit and in doing so pushed a fringe POV that makes him an inappropriate voice when discussing the sexual content related policies.

Notice how he tries to pretend to be a swell guy and I am so awful, where I then point out Bishonen's block of him for blatant abuse and disruption while I was one of the few trying to stop the drama. He sure likes to try and hide who he really is.

[GlassBeadGame]

See here for the current drama. He wants to go at me because he doesn't like it that I pointed out that he defended pedophiles "right" to edit and in doing so pushed a fringe POV that makes him an inappropriate voice when discussing the sexual content related policies.

Notice how he tries to pretend to be a swell guy and I am so awful, where I then point out Bishonen's block of him for blatant abuse and disruption while I was one of the few trying to stop the drama. He sure likes to try and hide who he really is.

Isn't there someone sane who will not turn this into an embarrassment who can lead this charge?

[Ottava]

If someone else wants to take the lead in pointing out how an ex Arb who was removed for corruption and lying is now trying to hinder the WMF's ability to protect children, please do.

[GlassBeadGame]

If someone else wants to take the lead in pointing out how an ex Arb who was removed for corruption and lying is now trying to hinder the WMF's ability to protect children, please do.

Not a wiki-fiddler myself, but it seems to me the place to start is to address FT2's irresponsible support for pedophiles in some other time and place than the current RFC. That discussion seems to be contest between "Ottava is an asshole" and "FT2 is a pervert." When defined in these terms it is very like to be a tie game. FT2 needs to be taken on on terms more likely to result in a clean win. Besides nobody really wants to answer the call to be a part of Ottava's Personal Army.

[Sxeptomaniac]

Isn't there someone sane who will not turn this into an embarrassment who can lead this charge?

I'm not sure what charge needs to be led. Skimming things, it seems like FT2's position is basically that WP editors shouldn't be digging up information from around the internet to use against editors who have otherwise not caused any problems. Meanwhile, Ottava seems to believe that if he can dig up any evidence that someone is a supposed pervert, pedophile, whatever, they should be immediately banned. I don't see why a reasonable person would support Ottava's stance.

[Ottava]

Isn't there someone sane who will not turn this into an embarrassment who can lead this charge?

I'm not sure what charge needs to be led. Skimming things, it seems like FT2's position is basically that WP editors shouldn't be digging up information from around the internet to use against editors who have otherwise not caused any problems. Meanwhile, Ottava seems to believe that if he can dig up any evidence that someone is a supposed pervert, pedophile, whatever, they should be immediately banned. I don't see why a reasonable person would support Ottava's stance.

You think Tyciol should be allowed to continue editing?

What about Haiduc?

[A Horse With No Name]

FT2 needs to be taken on on terms more likely to result in a clean win. Besides nobody really wants to answer the call to be a part of Ottava's Personal Army.

Now, maybe one of our resident tubbies can play Sancho? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

[Milton Roe]

FT2 needs to be taken on on terms more likely to result in a clean win. Besides nobody really wants to answer the call to be a part of Ottava's Personal Army.

Now, maybe one of our resident tubbies can play Sancho? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

Why not? You've been doing his Rocinante for long enough. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

[Somey]

...Skimming things, it seems like FT2's position is basically that WP editors shouldn't be digging up information from around the internet to use against editors who have otherwise not caused any problems. Meanwhile, Ottava seems to believe that if he can dig up any evidence that someone is a supposed pervert, pedophile, whatever, they should be immediately banned. I don't see why a reasonable person would support Ottava's stance.

Reasonable Wikipedian, you mean? I suspect most people who haven't been inculcated/indoctrinated into the WP Way of Doing Things™ would tend to agree with Ottava, particularly if they happen to be parents of young-ish children. They might not agree with his tone or even his methods, but they'd probably agree with him "in principle," at least.

Personally, I don't think WP'ers should feel obligated to seek out background info elsewhere on other WP'ers when those other WP'ers say or do something questionable with respect to child-sexuality-related articles or whatever, though it would be nice if they would, so that people like Ottava (or me, for that matter) won't have to make that choice and go to all that trouble themselves (or ourselves, as the case may be). But at the very least, WP'ers should never, ever actually ignore solid evidence from other websites that indicates one of theirs is a pedophile or pedo-advocate - that's just common sense, seems to me.

[A Horse With No Name]

Why not? You've been doing his Rocinante for long enough. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hrmph.gif)

Touché, Monsieur Pussycat! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/boing.gif)

[GlassBeadGame]

Isn't there someone sane who will not turn this into an embarrassment who can lead this charge?

I'm not sure what charge needs to be led. Skimming things, it seems like FT2's position is basically that WP editors shouldn't be digging up information from around the internet to use against editors who have otherwise not caused any problems. Meanwhile, Ottava seems to believe that if he can dig up any evidence that someone is a supposed pervert, pedophile, whatever, they should be immediately banned. I don't see why a reasonable person would support Ottava's stance.

You think Tyciol should be allowed to continue editing?

What about Haiduc?

WP should have and enforce rigorously policies that protect children from pedophiles. I'm external to Wikipedia and want less and less to do with that internal workings of that unpleasant place. At least one of those "editors" has been identified by an outside advocacy group (albeit somewhat troubled itself) as presenting a risk to children. It would be better if WMF would employ responsible child advocacy agencies as watchdogs. In the meantime I would criticize the presence of inappropriate editors without supporting the revenge mechanics of efforts of the like of Ottava. Child protection should not be a community activity in any event. It needs to be pursued on a board level and enforced by true agents of WMF and not left to the whims of "contributors." Even when Ottava has the right message he is the wrong messenger.

[SB_Johnny]

Isn't there someone sane who will not turn this into an embarrassment who can lead this charge?

Even when Ottava has the right message he is the wrong messenger.

The problem is that no one in their right mind (i.e., a sane person) would bother investing the time, energy, and emotion. The lunatics really are running the asylum, and any non-lunatic who tries to make a difference either gets frustrated, or goes bonkers themselves. I don't think change from the inside is feasible.

[Ottava]

Child protection should not be a community activity in any event. It needs to be pursued on a board level and enforced by true agents of WMF and not left to the whims of "contributors." Even when Ottava has the right message he is the wrong messenger.

I'm the only one who was willing to challenge the WMF executive when she backed down from enforcing our standards. I also stood up to people who were using Board members to justify corruption. Few people are willing to risk such things, and, as you noticed, it was used to justify keeping me blocked while saying I was given only one "appeal" per six months, which clearly has no basis in the original ruling.

You take what you can get, no? But seriously, if someone -else- is willing to step in, please do. I'd like to be a silent coward like everyone else.

[Sxeptomaniac]

...Skimming things, it seems like FT2's position is basically that WP editors shouldn't be digging up information from around the internet to use against editors who have otherwise not caused any problems. Meanwhile, Ottava seems to believe that if he can dig up any evidence that someone is a supposed pervert, pedophile, whatever, they should be immediately banned. I don't see why a reasonable person would support Ottava's stance.

Reasonable Wikipedian, you mean? I suspect most people who haven't been inculcated/indoctrinated into the WP Way of Doing Things™ would tend to agree with Ottava, particularly if they happen to be parents of young-ish children. They might not agree with his tone or even his methods, but they'd probably agree with him "in principle," at least.

Not really. I've been a little too close to some real-life sex offender witch-hunts to feel comfortable with anything that gets too close to making it a permanent stigma. Innocent people get caught in Ottava's type of hysteria. Where does it stop? That's what bothers me about Ottava's position: I don't think he understands the concept of a measured response.

Personally, I don't think WP'ers should feel obligated to seek out background info elsewhere on other WP'ers when those other WP'ers say or do something questionable with respect to child-sexuality-related articles or whatever, though it would be nice if they would, so that people like Ottava (or me, for that matter) won't have to make that choice and go to all that trouble themselves (or ourselves, as the case may be). But at the very least, WP'ers should never, ever actually ignore solid evidence from other websites that indicates one of theirs is a pedophile or pedo-advocate - that's just common sense, seems to me.

I'm not advocating ignoring solid evidence, especially if it relates to activity on WP, but I definitely don't believe it's grounds, in and of itself, for any action. Their edits, particularly if they overlap with topics related to sex or children, should be examined (very, very closely), but it's unlikely to be an issue if their edits are unrelated to such topics. If their edits/actions on WP are questionable, then I'm all for taking action (as some did with Haiduc, eventually). However, booting anyone other editors were able to dig up dirt on would not be right.

[taiwopanfob]

I'm not advocating ignoring solid evidence, especially if it relates to activity on WP, but I definitely don't believe it's grounds, in and of itself, for any action. Their edits, particularly if they overlap with topics related to sex or children, should be examined (very, very closely), but it's unlikely to be an issue if their edits are unrelated to such topics. If their edits/actions on WP are questionable, then I'm all for taking action (as some did with Haiduc, eventually). However, booting anyone other editors were able to dig up dirt on would not be right.

The damage they can inflict is way out of proportion to their frequency of occurrence in the population. There are so few of them, in fact, that to throw the lot out without much further consideration is the best plan of action for at least two good reasons:

0. It's the inherently stable, low-energy position. No one needs to waste examining their edits "very, very closely". Also nipped in the bud are the drama-attractors like wiki-trials and the like, should someone notice something untoward.

1. The trivial loss in talent (if any) by summary dismissal of these people will be easily made up for by increases elsewhere due to increased trust of the environment. (Sweep the few criminals from the park and many, many, more people will start bringing their families for picnics again.)

Honestly, that you are even entertaining these folk with dialog and debate is excellent evidence that you are far, far too gullible for your own good. You are being conned, and conning yourself as well. AGF has it's limits, and you are all bending over backwards to accommodate ... who?

[Sxeptomaniac]

The damage they can inflict is way out of proportion to their frequency of occurrence in the population. There are so few of them, in fact, that to throw the lot out without much further consideration is the best plan of action for at least two good reasons:

0. It's the inherently stable, low-energy position. No one needs to waste examining their edits "very, very closely". Also nipped in the bud are the drama-attractors like wiki-trials and the like, should someone notice something untoward.

I fail to see what is "low-energy" about digging up dirt from around the internet. I also don't see how this position would avoid drama. You'd be asking for a whole hell of a lot of drama as soon as a few innocent people get called "pedophiles" and blocked for it. They wouldn't be satisfied with "our mistake, you're unblocked." They would be supremely pissed at being called something so offensive.

1. The trivial loss in talent (if any) by summary dismissal of these people will be easily made up for by increases elsewhere due to increased trust of the environment. (Sweep the few criminals from the park and many, many, more people will start bringing their families for picnics again.)

Kicking out shady characters and criminals is one thing; summarily booting any suspected "pedophiles" is a whole different matter.

Honestly, that you are even entertaining these folk with dialog and debate is excellent evidence that you are far, far too gullible for your own good. You are being conned, and conning yourself as well. AGF has it's limits, and you are all bending over backwards to accommodate ... who?

And thinking that shooting from the hip will bring back the sunshine and rainbows is your own brand of self-con. These are people. Sometimes sick and twisted ones who don't belong, sometimes ones who made a mistake or misspoke at some point, and sometimes innocent. The fearful, paranoid response is far more gullible than taking a little time to check things out and give people an opportunity to explain themselves. WP has certainly been too permissive about such problems in the past, but swinging to the opposite extreme is rarely wise.

[taiwopanfob]

The damage they can inflict is way out of proportion to their frequency of occurrence in the population. There are so few of them, in fact, that to throw the lot out without much further consideration is the best plan of action for at least two good reasons:

0. It's the inherently stable, low-energy position. No one needs to waste examining their edits "very, very closely". Also nipped in the bud are the drama-attractors like wiki-trials and the like, should someone notice something untoward.

I fail to see what is "low-energy" about digging up dirt from around the internet. I also don't see how this position would avoid drama. You'd be asking for a whole hell of a lot of drama as soon as a few innocent people get called "pedophiles" and blocked for it. They wouldn't be satisfied with "our mistake, you're unblocked." They would be supremely pissed at being called something so offensive.

Then I guess you'll have to be careful? I know, this may sound a bit difficult for a project that is notorious for its fast and loose play with facts about people's lives, but hey, ya gotta learn sometime, eh? How ironic that you people will do all you can to fuck up anyone else -- "digging around the internet for dirt"(!) -- but woe to him who tries to screw around with a Wikipedia Editor!

1. The trivial loss in talent (if any) by summary dismissal of these people will be easily made up for by increases elsewhere due to increased trust of the environment. (Sweep the few criminals from the park and many, many, more people will start bringing their families for picnics again.)

Kicking out shady characters and criminals is one thing; summarily booting any suspected "pedophiles" is a whole different matter.

Typical for a wikipedian, you read too much into the analogy, thus missing the point.

Honestly, that you are even entertaining these folk with dialog and debate is excellent evidence that you are far, far too gullible for your own good. You are being conned, and conning yourself as well. AGF has it's limits, and you are all bending over backwards to accommodate ... who?

And thinking that shooting from the hip will bring back the sunshine and rainbows is your own brand of self-con.

Your reading comprehension problems are yours alone to solve.

These are people.

Yes, they are. And you don't want them anywhere near your project as long as you cater to children. So enact sane policy and get on with it.

Sometimes sick and twisted ones who don't belong, sometimes ones who made a mistake or misspoke at some point, and sometimes innocent. The fearful, paranoid response is far more gullible than taking a little time to check things out and give people an opportunity to explain themselves. WP has certainly been too permissive about such problems in the past, but swinging to the opposite extreme is rarely wise.

As soon as you wipe the crocodile tears from Wikipedia's face re: BLP's, I might take some of this twaddle more seriously. But even then, that is unlikely: kick the bums out. It is what every other venue that attracts kids would do. You think www.webkinz.com is holding meetings about this subject, managers and other people worrying about how "they are people who made some mistakes" and the like? Pull your head out of your wiki-ass and look around the real world.

[Somey]

I also don't see how this position would avoid drama. You'd be asking for a whole hell of a lot of drama as soon as a few innocent people get called "pedophiles" and blocked for it. They wouldn't be satisfied with "our mistake, you're unblocked." They would be supremely pissed at being called something so offensive.

First of all, don't call them "pedophiles" - come up with some sort of code word, Wikipedians are good at that. Second, there's nothing stopping Wikipedia from doing this stuff in private online venues - sure, there will be leaks, but leaks are a far cry from blaring it all over heavily-watched pages like AN/I and Jimbo's talk page. Third, aren't we talking about open-and-shut cases? If we're talking about "judgment calls," then sure, give people the benefit of the doubt, as long as it's reasonable doubt. I'm not saying WP should set up some sort of court-like thing for this; just use common sense, but don't say "things will be OK if we just watch them closely from now on" - you're doing the entire internet a disservice with that kind of talk. Remember, they're not necessarily dumber than you are.

The fearful, paranoid response is far more gullible than taking a little time to check things out and give people an opportunity to explain themselves. WP has certainly been too permissive about such problems in the past, but swinging to the opposite extreme is rarely wise.

Agreed, but when you have a solid case, particularly a "self-identifier," don't get distracted or held up by people like FT2. Just ban the accounts, quietly if you prefer, and have done with it.

[Sxeptomaniac]

... (cut for brevity)

This all seems way off-topic, in addition to being a bunch of false assumptions regarding what I was saying, so I'll just skip to addressing Somey.

I also don't see how this position would avoid drama. You'd be asking for a whole hell of a lot of drama as soon as a few innocent people get called "pedophiles" and blocked for it. They wouldn't be satisfied with "our mistake, you're unblocked." They would be supremely pissed at being called something so offensive.

First of all, don't call them "pedophiles" - come up with some sort of code word, Wikipedians are good at that. Second, there's nothing stopping Wikipedia from doing this stuff in private online venues - sure, there will be leaks, but leaks are a far cry from blaring it all over heavily-watched pages like AN/I and Jimbo's talk page. Third, aren't we talking about open-and-shut cases? If we're talking about "judgment calls," then sure, give people the benefit of the doubt, as long as it's reasonable doubt. I'm not saying WP should set up some sort of court-like thing for this; just use common sense, but don't say "things will be OK if we just watch them closely from now on" - you're doing the entire internet a disservice with that kind of talk. Remember, they're not necessarily dumber than you are.

I wasn't talking about open-and-shut cases, and it doesn't appear that's what Ottava's been talking about. FT2 seems to be the one advocating limiting summary blocks to the clear-cut situations.

I also didn't say "just watch" pedophiles. I was commenting that, if evidence from offsite surfaces that a WP editor might be pro-pedophile activist or some other kind of problem, then they should absolutely have their edits scrutinized to see if there is some subtle skewing going on. However, some offsite item shouldn't be enough in itself, for a variety of reasons.

The fearful, paranoid response is far more gullible than taking a little time to check things out and give people an opportunity to explain themselves. WP has certainly been too permissive about such problems in the past, but swinging to the opposite extreme is rarely wise.

Agreed, but when you have a solid case, particularly a "self-identifier," don't get distracted or held up by people like FT2. Just ban the accounts, quietly if you prefer, and have done with it.

Now I'm just confused as to what you're talking about, or think you're talking about. I'll admit I didn't read the original link really closely, but FT2 clearly states he supports current WP policy on the subject early on.

His exact words are, "The actual site policy for enwiki is about advocacy and misuse, namely that 'Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships, who advocate inappropriate adult–child relationships, or who identify themselves as pedophiles, will be indefinitely blocked'. This is the position I have stated to Ottava."

His position, as opposed to what little I could follow of Ottava's, appears quite reasonable. I'm rather surprised how many people seem to be taking Ottava's claims at face value. Ottava is the guy who started calling someone a pervert for mentioning he has naked baby pictures of his own kids, after all.

[Somey]

His exact words are, "The actual site policy for enwiki is about advocacy and misuse, namely that 'Editors who attempt to use Wikipedia to pursue or facilitate inappropriate adult–child relationships, who advocate inappropriate adult–child relationships, or who identify themselves as pedophiles, will be indefinitely blocked'. This is the position I have stated to Ottava."

As I understand it, the difference (aside from the definition of "solid case") is that FT2 would probably want to reject anything from a non-Wikimedia site that might implicate a WP user as a pedophilia advocate. In other words, "no offsite evidence" - evidence which, to be fair, could be the result of an impersonation attempt, so it would have to be evaluated very carefully. But if they're going to reject it out-of-hand just because it's "offsite," realistically that's the same as saying they don't really care. I understand why they don't want to, because it probably feels like "cyberstalking" to them and is therefore abhorrent. But "cyberstalking" doesn't always have to lead to "outing," much less "ruined lives." Sometimes it's just what you have to do to cover your own ass.

Mind you, I don't think WP'ers should be doing this sort of thing themselves either - it should be handled by people whose job it is to deal with things like this. But obviously the WMF isn't going to get involved, so that leaves youse-guys. The sad thing, as always, is that you're doing all the work and they're taking the credit, and of course getting all the money.