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_ German-language Wikipedia _ Are they all crazy at German Wikipedia?

Posted by: Law Lord

(I am posting this here instead of the German forum, since my German is rusty and I prefer an outside view.)

I rarely (never) edit deWiki but a sudden piece of interesting information about the late Hans Diller came to my attention. As far as I could tell, an article on him was only present at deWiki.

I inserted the info (in German). A user reverted. I asked for the reasoning. None was given. It seems said user thought that it is good for the mutual respect that instead of participating in a discussen about an article, you write your admin friends in private and have them threathen anybody you disagree with.

So, asking again made this being entered on my user page:

QUOTE

Please stop your editing without references, which, by the way, looks like „on the wrong side of the enyclopaedic border“. And if you revert that again, I'd have to stop you by efficient means.


The poster was a German administrator, and he has a very anti-French image on his user page.

I posted a request on the bottom of his user page for the removal of said image:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm#Please_remove_hateful_content

This led to immidiate reaction by 3 different user, none of them adressing the issue but rather "shooting back" at me. The 3rd one write in German calling me a "troll" and stating I have no interest in "encyclopedic coopoeration" and asking for my immidate block.

Certainly, the culture at deWiki is very different from enWiki.



Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Law Lord

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:29pm) *

I posted a request on the bottom of his user page for the removal of said image:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm#Please_remove_hateful_content

Is it really any more "hateful" than the original?
Image

Posted by: Lar

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sat 19th September 2009, 10:39am) *

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:29pm) *

I posted a request on the bottom of his user page for the removal of said image:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm#Please_remove_hateful_content

Is it really any more "hateful" than the original?
Image

I think they're both amusing... far more than hateful. Could just be me.

Perhaps someone who reads Russian could evaluate this one

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%A1%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2_%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B8_%28%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%29.svg

Posted by: Law Lord

Well, the French version makes fun of particular French topics in a way the English does not. I doubt it is something most frWiki users have on the user pages.

Anyway, this is a German user, and he has added a subtext to the image on the user page ... Not sure it is great to make fun of other nationalities like that.

Posted by: Law Lord

Wow, they are crazy at German wikipedia.

Account blocked indefinitely at 19. September 2009, 14:40 UTC.

For "lack of intent for encyclopaedic cooperation".

Review my entire http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Beitr%C3%A4ge/Law_Lord (very short) and tell me more. blink.gif


Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:42pm) *

Well, the French version makes fun of particular French topics in a way the English does not. I doubt it is something most frWiki users have on the user pages.

Actually enwiki has all the same commune-stubs. I think Blofeld took care of that years ago. I wouldn't have known Jehovah's "Witnesses" were over-represented on the french site, or geckos for that matter. Learn something new every day...

QUOTE

Anyway, this is a German user, and he has added a subtext to the image on the user page ... Not sure it is great to make fun of other nationalities like that.

Because blood is thicker than skin, or something like that? dry.gif

Posted by: Tarc

QUOTE(Lar @ Sat 19th September 2009, 10:41am) *
Perhaps someone who reads Russian could evaluate this one


Extremely rusty, but since the the top-left box looks like a phonetic rendition of "Pokemon", and the box under it "meme" now that I look at it, it is probably much the same as the original. Presumably with some alterations to the more Amero-centric entries, i.e. "Putin is teh gay".

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 9:42am) *
Well, the French version makes fun of particular French topics in a way the English does not. I doubt it is something most frWiki users have on the user pages.

I don't want to seem overly sardonic here, but you're not doing this the "Wiki Way."

The Wiki Way demands that you create your own version of the image (or chart or whatever), lampooning the German Wikipedia's content, which (you could say) is mostly comprised of articles about beer, sausages, and really bad Polka music. Then, you get as many French users as possible to display your version on their user pages, until finally one of the Germans notices it (which should take about 45 minutes or so).

Then, of course, rather than simply agree that such things are insulting and remove them from both sites, they would have to "up the ante," probably by creating a userbox template. This would then lead to more templates, insult-categories, attack articles, and so on.

This "tit-for-tat" would then continue for about 15 years or so, until all of the users who started the whole nasty business have left the two sites in question, and the people who came along to replace them finally realize how moronic the whole thing is.

Posted by: Jim

QUOTE
Wikipedia policy does not allow for blocking (''German: sperren'') of people just because you disagree with them. --


A bold statement, if ever I saw one - if only it were always true... tongue.gif

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Tarc @ Sat 19th September 2009, 3:37pm) *

Extremely rusty, but since the the top-left box looks like a phonetic rendition of "Pokemon", and the box under it "meme" now that I look at it, it is probably much the same as the original. Presumably with some alterations to the more Amero-centric entries, i.e. "Putin is teh gay".

Litvinenko lives!

Posted by: written by he who wrote it

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:42pm) *

Well, the French version makes fun of particular French topics in a way the English does not. I doubt it is something most frWiki users have on the user pages.

Anyway, this is a German user, and he has added a subtext to the image on the user page ... Not sure it is great to make fun of other nationalities like that.

It was created by a http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilisateur:Gribeco and is in fact http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CheckUsage.php?i=R%C3%A9partition_vraisemblable_de_la_Wikip%C3%A9dia_francophone.png&w=_100000#end. I don't think it's any more hateful than a non-Anglophone using the original English version.

Posted by: Dr. Blofeld

I've created an article for you at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Diller

Give German wikipedia a big finger and expand my article on english wikipedia without intervention!!!! evilgrin.gif evilgrin.gif evilgrin.gif

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(written by he who wrote it @ Sat 19th September 2009, 6:47pm) *

I don't think it's any more hateful than a non-Anglophone using the original English version.


There is the German/French historic dimension, which I think makes it different. Though my point with this thread was not so much the image but rather the user and administrator behaviour towards (rather against) me. I made an edit to an article, which was reverted. I did not re-make it but sought an explanation. Then they blocked me.

QUOTE(Dr. Blofeld @ Sat 19th September 2009, 6:48pm) *

I've created an article for you at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Diller

Give German wikipedia a big finger and expand my article on english wikipedia without intervention!!!! evilgrin.gif evilgrin.gif evilgrin.gif


Absolutely. Just wondering how to appeal blocks on deWiki. Judging from the apparent need for treatment exhibited by at least 2 administrators there, they probably have no unblock procedure. Probably, unblocks are prohibited. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Appleby

Just for the record, the original English version is used by User:Ryan4314, who "is not an administrator and does not wish to be one" (alas).

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:53pm) *

Wow, they are crazy at German wikipedia.

For one amusing measurement of how dewiki and enwiki differ, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kandidaten_f%C3%BCr_exzellente_Bilder/Archiv2006/10#Highkey-Aktfoto_.E2.80.93_28._Mai_bis_11._Juni_PRO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Image-Ass_2.jpg.

Posted by: gomi

QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 19th September 2009, 8:59am) *
This "tit-for-tat" would then continue for about 15 years or so, until all of the users who started the whole nasty business have left the two sites in question, and the people who came along to replace them finally realize how moronic the whole thing is.

Somey, Somey ... you must read history. The tit-for-tat would last for 15 years or so, at which time as the German Wikipedia users would begin the secret manufacture of weapons ... for defensive purposes only. The French Wikipedians would build a giant but incomplete wall of defense against the aggression and hostility of the German Wikipedia. At some point another provocation would occur, and the German Wikipedians would all start invading the French Wikipedia, subverting its administrators and banning its minorities. The German Wikipedia would then turn on the English Wikipedia, who would then require help from Simple English Wikipedia to sort things out.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes" -- Mark Twain biggrin.gif


Posted by: Law Lord

Well, having made 1 minor controversial edit and then asking somebody to remove an image from an user page is not much for an indefinite block. fear.gif

I would appeal but it seems their excellent system for appeal only allow users who are NOT blocked to appeal blocks. laugh.gif

Posted by: dtobias

Not defending the indef block, which seems like an overreaction on their part, but do you really expect to be treated well when you go onto a project in a language which you apparently either can't or won't speak, do a controversial edit, and then argue in English about it instead of in that project's language (German), while at the same time raising a fuss about allegedly offensive behavior of another user?

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 2:26pm) *

Well, having made 1 minor controversial edit and then asking somebody to remove an image from an user page is not much for an indefinite block. fear.gif

I would appeal but it seems their excellent system for appeal only allow users who are NOT blocked to appeal blocks. laugh.gif

en.wiki was that way for a long time. I suppose it makes sense that de.wiki would continue the fine military tribunal tradition.

The Germans are either at your feet, or at your throat. In this case, you didn't exactly establish dominance right away, did you?

Posted by: Gandoman

The German Wikipedia does have certain cultural differences from the English one. For one, it's more authoritarian. While the English Wikipedia at least attempts to keep up the appearance of assuming good faith, the German one has a policy called http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sei_grausam ("be horrible"), which says that if someone is out of line, it's better to just come down with the banhammer as quickly as possible. Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Gandoman @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:13am) *

The German Wikipedia does have certain cultural differences from the English one. For one, it's more authoritarian. While the English Wikipedia at least attempts to keep up the appearance of assuming good faith, the German one has a policy called http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sei_grausam ("be horrible"), which says that if someone is out of line, it's better to just come down with the banhammer as quickly as possible. Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.

It opens with a hopefully apocryphal quote by Larry Sanger, about making projects more attractive to experts/academics by driving out all those "mediocre" editors who work for a living and are thus disruptive by default.

Posted by: Peter Damian

QUOTE(Gandoman @ Sun 20th September 2009, 11:13am) *

The German Wikipedia does have certain cultural differences from the English one. For one, it's more authoritarian. While the English Wikipedia at least attempts to keep up the appearance of assuming good faith, the German one has a policy called http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sei_grausam ("be horrible"), which says that if someone is out of line, it's better to just come down with the banhammer as quickly as possible. Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.


Interesting they have the same word for troll

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Netzkultur)

Posted by: dogbiscuit

QUOTE(CharlotteWebb @ Sun 20th September 2009, 12:28pm) *

QUOTE(Gandoman @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:13am) *

The German Wikipedia does have certain cultural differences from the English one. For one, it's more authoritarian. While the English Wikipedia at least attempts to keep up the appearance of assuming good faith, the German one has a policy called http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sei_grausam ("be horrible"), which says that if someone is out of line, it's better to just come down with the banhammer as quickly as possible. Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.

It opens with a hopefully apocryphal quote by Larry Sanger, about making projects more attractive to experts/academics by driving out all those "mediocre" editors who work for a living and are thus disruptive by default.

...which seems reasonable, aside from the knowledge that self-appointed guardians of the Internet isn't necessarily a recipe for success.

I noticed that the well-meaning crowd of FreeCycle have had a major schism with their founding founder who wanted to retain control and was booting out admins left right and centre. They did the fork thing and now we have Freegle instead.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Gandoman @ Sun 20th September 2009, 12:13pm) *

Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.


Definitely that is how it works; which is why I stand by my previous conclusion that these people are in need of treatment. They are also bad people because they refuse treatment and continue their sick ways. However, having a sectarian cultural interface is probably difficult to treat?

I understand now, what it is in German spirit that has resulted in some very poor choices over the course of recent history. How sad that this is reflected so clearly by the behaviour of the members of deWiki.

When these people (deWiki people) make so poor choices in simple human interaction (rendering themselves the Herrenvolk and every outsider an inferior) it certainly poses the question: how can anybody trust the validity of anything they write at all?

Posted by: Cedric

QUOTE(Gandoman @ Sun 20th September 2009, 5:13am) *

The German Wikipedia does have certain cultural differences from the English one. For one, it's more authoritarian. While the English Wikipedia at least attempts to keep up the appearance of assuming good faith, the German one has a policy called http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sei_grausam ("be horrible"), which says that if someone is out of line, it's better to just come down with the banhammer as quickly as possible. Basically, admins are the bosses, and if someone disagrees with any action performed by an admin or contributor with more seniority, they're likely to get booted real quick.

Sounds like the sort of place Abraham Lincoln referred to "where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy".

Posted by: Appleby

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 20th September 2009, 12:31pm) *

Interesting they have the same word for troll

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Netzkultur)

Quite the international word, and originally Norwegian methinks.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Cedric @ Sun 20th September 2009, 4:03pm) *

Sounds like the sort of place Abraham Lincoln referred to "where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy".


You said it better than I could.

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sun 20th September 2009, 7:10am) *
I understand now, what it is in German spirit that has resulted in some very poor choices over the course of recent history. How sad that this is reflected so clearly by the behaviour of the members of deWiki.

To be fair, I doubt that a cultural emphasis on efficiency, order, and "security" normally results in a mass tendency towards racism, religious persecution, or the devaluation of human life - at least not in most societies. It probably does result in authoritarianism though, along with a rigidly hierarchical power structure and a near-obsession with rules, making it an ideal proving ground for Wikipedianism.

Germans are NOT stupid people; most of them know that the mistakes of the past must (or at least should) never be repeated. Unfortunately, they've yet to realize what a mistake Wikipedia is... Hopefully, time will fix that.

QUOTE
When these people (deWiki people) make so poor choices in simple human interaction ...(snip)... it certainly poses the question: how can anybody trust the validity of anything they write at all?

Well, THAT you could say of almost any culture that produces a Wikimedia project. Each national/ethnic culture has its own idiosyncrasies, and any encyclopedia-like websites produced by those cultures will reflect them. That's just another reason why people should want their encyclopedias to be produced by properly-trained, unbiased academics and publishers, rather than cultures.

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:54am) *



Germans are NOT stupid people; most of them know that the mistakes of the past must (or at least should) never be repeated. Unfortunately, they've yet to realize what a mistake Wikipedia is... Hopefully, time will fix that.



It has impressed me greatly the generations of Germans since WWII have conducted themselves in a manner that is just about everything you could ask from a people whose nation has a recent past of horrible wrongdoing. As a society they have faced their past without avoiding blame or making excuses, readily acknowledging responsibility.

Posted by: Random832

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 20th September 2009, 5:08pm) *
It has impressed me greatly the generations of Germans since WWII have conducted themselves in a manner that is just about everything you could ask from a people whose nation has a recent past of horrible wrongdoing. As a society they have faced their past without avoiding blame or making excuses, readily acknowledging responsibility.


Though that in turn requires one to take it as read that an individual born after 1945 should take "responsibility" for the events of WWII (which is of course distinct from the responsibility to do their part to prevent such things from happening again)

Posted by: GlassBeadGame

QUOTE(Random832 @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:43pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 20th September 2009, 5:08pm) *
It has impressed me greatly the generations of Germans since WWII have conducted themselves in a manner that is just about everything you could ask from a people whose nation has a recent past of horrible wrongdoing. As a society they have faced their past without avoiding blame or making excuses, readily acknowledging responsibility.


Though that in turn requires one to take it as read that an individual born after 1945 should take "responsibility" for the events of WWII (which is of course distinct from the responsibility to do their part to prevent such things from happening again)


Thus the "As a society" part. Compare this to the less admirable response of of white people in America in relation to racism and exploitation of black people. This is all the worse because unlike the devastation of WWII which had the practical effect of leveling away any gain German society had ever seen from their fleeting conquests, white people in America have never disgorged what was gained through exploitation. Currently any attempt doing anything to redress these historic wrongs and their lingering effects is decried as "reverse racism."

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Random832 @ Sun 20th September 2009, 11:43pm) *
Though that in turn requires one to take it as read that an individual born after 1945 should take "responsibility" for the events of WWII (which is of course distinct from the responsibility to do their part to prevent such things from happening again)

There's a scene in http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0976051/ (which takes place in a university lecture hall, of course) that touches on this. It suggested that Germans born after 1945 were, more than anything, quite angry at their forebears for putting them in the position of having to rebuild both the country's physical devastation and their national reputation within the civilized world. (As one would expect, I suppose.)

But what we were originally talking about in this thread wasn't really anti-semitism or genocide or even out-of-control military expansionism - we were actually talking about France-bashing, and there are plenty of Americans and English folks who do that (among others). Most of it is unwarranted, IMO.

There's a spy novel I like to recommend called The Spies of Warsaw by Alan Furst, in which a (note: SPOILERS!!!) French attache in 1938 Warsaw all but proves that the Germans are going to send their tanks through the Ardennes Forest in Belgium to invade France, rather than challenge the Maginot Line, but the French General Staff ignores him because Marshal Petain's reputation depends on that not being a possibility. There's a legitimate argument that if it hadn't been for Petain's insistence on this, the Germans could have been stopped in Northern France, and it would have been a simple matter for British and American forces to land on the continent and help drive them back into Germany. OTOH, if that had happened, it's also possible that the Nazi regime might have made peace with the French, and even survived long enough to develop atomic bombs. So who knows - maybe Petain did everybody a favor.

Ahh, the vagaries of history... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Appleby @ Sun 20th September 2009, 3:01pm) *

QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Sun 20th September 2009, 12:31pm) *

Interesting they have the same word for troll

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Netzkultur)

Quite the international word, and originally Norwegian methinks.

That seems to be the case.
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=25817&view=findpost&p=189898

Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky

QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:26pm) *

There's a spy novel I like to recommend called The Spies of Warsaw by Alan Furst, in which a (note: SPOILERS!!!) French attache in 1938 Warsaw all but proves that the Germans are going to send their tanks through the Ardennes Forest in Belgium to invade France, rather than challenge the Maginot Line, but the French General Staff ignores him because Marshal Petain's reputation depends on that not being a possibility. There's a legitimate argument that if it hadn't been for Petain's insistence on this, the Germans could have been stopped in Northern France, and it would have been a simple matter for British and American forces to land on the continent and help drive them back into Germany.
Well, that's interesting, because at least on the surface you seem to agree with LaRouche on this point:
QUOTE
I have warned against the silly, but popularized myth, the myth that it was France's preoccupation with the development of the Maginot Line which facilitated the German victory on that occasion. The rout of the greater part of France's military forces then, was chiefly the contribution of a pro-Synarchist "Fifth Column" inside the leading French military and other institutions, in the sense of the role of the "Fifth Column" which had just previously produced the victory of the fascist dictator Franco in 1930s Spain. The Synarchist influences from inside France's institutions left the gate wide open for what should have been considered the probable German course of action.

...That "Fifth Column" inside 1940 France was what is known as the same Synarchist International later represented by the regimes of Nazi-occupied France, as represented by the offshoot of Lazard Freres-related banking groups known as Banque Worms. This circle within France, had been the pivotal element of the post-Versailles Treaty drive toward the use of fascism as a tool for creating a globalized system, echoing the ultramontane imperial system of the Venetian financier-oligarchy and Norman chivalry, and also the Napoleonic model. http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/writings_files/2006/060527_synarchism_sport.htm


Posted by: InkBlot

Am I missing a joke here, or is my German worse than I think (and really, I'm not sure it's possible for me to think any worse of my German and still admit I know any)? Looking at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hans_Diller&diff=prev&oldid=63923837, it, um, looks to be a penis joke. Which would kinda explain the reaction, at least to me. Sooooooooooo.......

blink.gif

Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 7:53am) *

Wow, they are crazy at German wikipedia.

Account blocked indefinitely at 19. September 2009, 14:40 UTC.

For "lack of intent for encyclopaedic cooperation".

Review my entire http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spezial:Beitr%C3%A4ge/Law_Lord (very short) and tell me more. blink.gif
Actually, Charlotte is right, and your history of contributions doesn't demonstrate much intent beyond basic goofiness.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(InkBlot @ Thu 24th September 2009, 1:33am) *

Looking at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hans_Diller&diff=prev&oldid=63923837, it, um, looks to be a penis joke. Which would kinda explain the reaction, at least to me. Sooooooooooo.......

blink.gif

Not a joke but a statement of fact, which was reverted, after which I edited the article no further.

So no, not really any reasonable explanation for the reaction from the deWiki common herd.
I wish that could explain it since then the reaction would at least make some sense.

Posted by: Shalom

Why don't y'all ban me from WR already, y'all hate me anyway.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 24th September 2009, 2:17am) *

Actually, Charlotte is right, and your history of contributions doesn't demonstrate much intent beyond basic goofiness.

You think it is "basic goofiness" to ask an administrator to remove an anti-French image? Or to discuss article content?

I think you are probably quite active on deWiki. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 5:26pm) *

QUOTE(InkBlot @ Thu 24th September 2009, 1:33am) *

Looking at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hans_Diller&diff=prev&oldid=63923837, it, um, looks to be a penis joke. Which would kinda explain the reaction, at least to me. Sooooooooooo.......

blink.gif

Not a joke but a statement of fact, which was reverted, after which I edited the article no further.
If, hypothetically, we were to buy your claim that it was not a joke, then it's Original Researchâ„¢.

Posted by: A Horse With No Name

QUOTE(Shalom @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 8:28pm) *

Why don't y'all ban me from WR already, y'all hate me anyway.


I don't hate you. Not that I have a reputation for great taste or coherent judgment, but...I think you're welcome to swim around. smile.gif

Posted by: Law Lord

Wow, it seems said (anti-French) administrator (Wahrerwattwurm) has continued the discussion (after my ban) me with lots of comments/insults directed at me. How mature. He writes:

QUOTE
Alors, déconnes, LawLord. Obvieusement, tu n'as rien compris, et je te demande - au moment encore bienveillant - de fourrer ton nez ailleurs. Hier ist für Dich Sperrgebiet. -- Wwwurm Mien Klönschnack 20:12, 20. Sep. 2009 (CEST)
BTW: If your complete knowledge of France consists in „InterRail in Paris, Lille and Calais (1999). Conference in Cannes.“, do you really think you're able to give me any kind of advice?

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm&diff=prev&oldid=64733629 http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm&diff=prev&oldid=64733610

So he has been looking at my user page and uses info from that for a personal attack. How mature. I guess those are the kind of people they have as admins on deWiki.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(Shalom @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 5:28pm) *

Why don't y'all ban me from WR already, y'all hate me anyway.

And you are ... who?

Posted by: Somey

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 3:59pm) *
...at least on the surface you seem to agree with LaRouche on this point:
QUOTE
I have warned against the silly, but popularized myth, the myth that it was France's preoccupation with the development of the Maginot Line which facilitated the German victory on that occasion. The rout of the greater part of France's military forces then, was chiefly the contribution of a pro-Synarchist "Fifth Column" inside the leading French military and other institutions, in the sense of the role of the "Fifth Column" which had just previously produced the victory of the fascist dictator Franco in 1930s Spain. The Synarchist influences from inside France's institutions left the gate wide open for what should have been considered the probable German course of action.

I dunno, that sounds like a failure to apply Hanlon's Razor to me. Besides, it wasn't so much a "preoccupation with the development of the Maginot Line" - they'd already developed it by the late 30's. For whatever reason, they didn't worry about the border with Belgium, and if that was because of a "Synarchist Fifth Column," well... it's not like I was there in person, but the "Petain was stupid, vain and arrogant" argument just sounds more plausible.

QUOTE
...That "Fifth Column" inside 1940 France was what is known as the same Synarchist International later represented by the regimes of Nazi-occupied France, as represented by the offshoot of Lazard Freres-related banking groups known as Banque Worms. This circle within France, had been the pivotal element of the post-Versailles Treaty drive toward the use of fascism as a tool for creating a globalized system, echoing the ultramontane imperial system of the Venetian financier-oligarchy and Norman chivalry, and also the Napoleonic model.

...And as for that part, it's hard to agree with something I can't even make sense of! confused.gif

Posted by: Cla68

QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 24th September 2009, 5:47am) *

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Wed 23rd September 2009, 3:59pm) *
...at least on the surface you seem to agree with LaRouche on this point:
QUOTE
I have warned against the silly, but popularized myth, the myth that it was France's preoccupation with the development of the Maginot Line which facilitated the German victory on that occasion. The rout of the greater part of France's military forces then, was chiefly the contribution of a pro-Synarchist "Fifth Column" inside the leading French military and other institutions, in the sense of the role of the "Fifth Column" which had just previously produced the victory of the fascist dictator Franco in 1930s Spain. The Synarchist influences from inside France's institutions left the gate wide open for what should have been considered the probable German course of action.

I dunno, that sounds like a failure to apply Hanlon's Razor to me. Besides, it wasn't so much a "preoccupation with the development of the Maginot Line" - they'd already developed it by the late 30's. For whatever reason, they didn't worry about the border with Belgium, and if that was because of a "Synarchist Fifth Column," well... it's not like I was there in person, but the "Petain was stupid, vain and arrogant" argument just sounds more plausible.


Well, from what I've read in books such as A War to be Won by Williamson Murray and Allen Millet, the Germans beat the French armies along the Belgian border basically because the Germans fought better. The Germans enjoyed better coordination and communication among their combined arms, including close air support, and had clear objectives and battle plans which were communicated effectively throughout their combat and support units. Even more importantly, at the small unit level, Wermacht noncommissioned officers appear to have been better trained and motivated. In general, the Germans displayed a decisive superiority in tactics such as mass and maneuver, attack and counterattack, exploitation of breakthroughs, etc. Firepower-wise, the adversaries were actually fairly evenly matched. The Germans won because they did a better job of using what they had.

Posted by: Milton Roe

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 20th September 2009, 9:58pm) *

QUOTE(Random832 @ Sun 20th September 2009, 10:43pm) *

QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Sun 20th September 2009, 5:08pm) *
It has impressed me greatly the generations of Germans since WWII have conducted themselves in a manner that is just about everything you could ask from a people whose nation has a recent past of horrible wrongdoing. As a society they have faced their past without avoiding blame or making excuses, readily acknowledging responsibility.


Though that in turn requires one to take it as read that an individual born after 1945 should take "responsibility" for the events of WWII (which is of course distinct from the responsibility to do their part to prevent such things from happening again)


Thus the "As a society" part. Compare this to the less admirable response of of white people in America in relation to racism and exploitation of black people. This is all the worse because unlike the devastation of WWII which had the practical effect of leveling away any gain German society had ever seen from their fleeting conquests, white people in America have never disgorged what was gained through exploitation. Currently any attempt doing anything to redress these historic wrongs and their lingering effects is decried as "reverse racism."

What "they" gained through historic wrongs? Which ones of them? I know all my ancestors in America right back to the first ones (I had one kicked out of Salem, Massachusetts along with with Roger Williams). All of them "Yankees." Most moved West early. Some with their own persecutee problems (see Mormon). None owned a slave. I cannot see that anybody got anywhere near Tara, that great mansion and plantation in Gone With the Wind. Before that, most of them came from England, Wales, Sweden. Where they didn't own slaves, either.

So where did my slavery benefits come from? How much do I owe?

And why must this stop at the American border, and in 1776? Slavery was a most curious institution. Actually when Gerald O'Hara wants some slaves for Tara, he doesn't usually go to Africa himself to capture them. Rather, they result from black-on-black warfare in Africa, the losers being transported to the coast by Africans, and only there sold to white people (often Portuguese) in the Atlantic slave trade. That was in the first half the 19th century. Before that, for a thousand years, about as many people were exported from Africa as slaves (10 million or so) but it was a collusion of Africans and Arabs. Recently, Barack Obama went to Africa and visited some of the relics of the later Atlantic slave trader era, and I don't know if he shed any tears, but if he did, it was probably because he recognized that his own ancestors were more likely to have benefited from African slavery economically than MINE were. I don't know what reparations he intends to pay to who for this-- but I'll bet he's planning to do it with my money, not his. huh.gif ermm.gif

The truth about our distant ancestors is this: they were survivors. All we know about most of them is that they didn't die in childhood, and that they one-and-all managed to either father a live child or bare one. That's all we know. Probably a lot of them did some nasty things to the nonsurvivors, though. If the sum total of all these accumulated sins of stuggle between waring groups are all to be passed to the offspring, with no discount, and maybe interest, I'll bet this gives half of us the perfect right by now, to kill the other half, in clan warfare reparations.

The only problem is, which half are YOU in? Flip a coin.

I recommend the Desmond Tutu option to THAT. It's better. dry.gif

Posted by: Law Lord

I have finally gone back to that place and started the appeals process, which must begin with an appeal to the blocking administrator.

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Benutzer_Diskussion%3AKuebi&action=historysubmit&diff=65491091&oldid=65483579

Comments on my German are welcome.

Posted by: Law Lord

Well, they are crazy:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sperrpr%C3%BCfung#Benutzer:Law_Lord

Maybe crazy is the wrong word. It just seems that the worst qualities of the German culture is very much centralized on deWiki; the result being a non-inclusive sectarian group. That aside, I think many of them are so far from perceiving reality and so far from understanding how other people must be treated that they would certainly benefit from medication.

I guess much of it can be attributed to the fact that people leave their manners behind when they go onto the Internet. Certainly, it that regard deWiki is not unique but rather one of many sad examples.

At least it is good as a test for the true moral standing of a person. So now I know that at least 3 editors and 3 administrators at deWiki need prison time learn how to behave towards other human beings. That knowledge does me little good when I am blocked. On the bright side: it would do me little good if I was not blocked.

I considered equating one or other to a NCO-rank in the SS, but that would just keep them in their disturbed ways.

Posted by: Guido den Broeder

Note that the flagged revisions do not make a difference to people's behaviour on de:Wikipedia

There are just as many personal attacks, editwars, lynchings ect. as anywhere else.

In fact, compared to other WP's, the German community strikes me as even more immature.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Guido den Broeder @ Fri 16th October 2009, 11:52am) *

In fact, compared to other WP's, the German community strikes me as even more immature.


Definitely. Not sure what they think they achieve by behaving like that.

Except to keep their sect a closed one and to prevent the general public from noticing their apparent need for medication.

Posted by: Moulton

The Politics of Disempowerment

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Thu 15th October 2009, 8:49pm) *
So now I know that at least 3 editors and 3 administrators at deWiki need prison time learn how to behave towards other human beings.

What prison teaches is that the best way to deal with those you don't get along with is to put them in prison.

In a game of chess, the best way to deal with a troublesome piece on the other side of the board is to take it out of commission.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 18th October 2009, 2:35pm) *

The Politics of Disempowerment

What prison teaches is that the best way to deal with those you don't get along with is to put them in prison.

In a game of chess, the best way to deal with a troublesome piece on the other side of the board is to take it out of commission.

No doubt that is how the deWiki scum sees it. However, your description − while certainly true for many prisons − is more correctly a description for a concentration camp. Certainly that is the only way the deWiki scum would want a prison to be: a concentration camp. If they could they would not only block innocent people forever but also send them to special camps where they could do things with them.

When I used the term "prison" in my previous post, I meant the kind of prison where bad people are taught how to change their ways and taught the value of morals and honest and decent behaviour. That is the kind of prison I would deem appropriate for the deWiki scum.

Posted by: Moulton

A prison is neither a church nor an institution of higher learning.

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 18th October 2009, 9:08pm) *

A prison is neither a church nor an institution of higher learning.


Finland actually has some success with their prisons and reforming the inmates.

Posted by: The Joy

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sun 18th October 2009, 3:14pm) *

QUOTE(Moulton @ Sun 18th October 2009, 9:08pm) *

A prison is neither a church nor an institution of higher learning.


Finland actually has some success with their prisons and reforming the inmates.


Are you suggesting that the German Wikipedians should be Finnished off? ohmy.gif

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 20th October 2009, 2:09am) *

Are you suggesting that the German Wikipedians should be Finnished off? ohmy.gif


That is exactly what I am suggesting! laugh.gif

Posted by: CharlotteWebb

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Wed 21st October 2009, 9:10pm) *

QUOTE(The Joy @ Tue 20th October 2009, 2:09am) *

Are you suggesting that the German Wikipedians should be Finnished off? ohmy.gif


That is exactly what I am suggesting! laugh.gif

−1 point(s)

The correct response is "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi". tongue.gif

Posted by: Jacina

1. Your entry was not sourced.
2. "Hans Diller was very popular in Denmark; in Danish his name means: his penis" Ignoring the completely awful German you used... that was just simply a retarded addition to the article if I may say so.

So basically you trolled an article, complained about it, then complained about a slight you perceived for another...

Yeah you're an idiot


Oh and your attempts at sourcing it, by way of suddenly having weird translations added to another open source translation wiki... well... nice try

Posted by: Law Lord

QUOTE(Jacina @ Wed 18th November 2009, 11:02am) *

Yeah you're an idiot


Your argument has such an amazing amount of maturity and insight that I am forced to concede the point. laugh.gif

With some proper research in the deWiki-archives I believe I have found your http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ASperrpr%C3%BCfung%2FAlt_02&action=historysubmit&diff=65635402&oldid=65632055, and he/she writes:
QUOTE

Let's see: You hardly speak the local language, yet you traipse around waving unfounded allegations of “racism”. Since quite frankly, local affairs ain't any of your goddamn business, I'd most definitely call that “trolling”. And that's still ignoring the penile vandalism. I’d actually consider AGF in this case, but then your rampant overgeneralizations would quite clearly render you a half-wit lacking either a clue or a life. Get both. Elsewhere. —mnh·∇· 09:25, 16. Okt. 2009 (CEST)


Though admittedly the clarity of your brilliance is to be desired as the paramount example of the typical deWiki-user.

Cheers

Posted by: NotARepublican55

QUOTE(Law Lord @ Sat 19th September 2009, 8:29am) *

(I am posting this here instead of the German forum, since my German is rusty and I prefer an outside view.)

I rarely (never) edit deWiki but a sudden piece of interesting information about the late Hans Diller came to my attention. As far as I could tell, an article on him was only present at deWiki.

I inserted the info (in German). A user reverted. I asked for the reasoning. None was given. It seems said user thought that it is good for the mutual respect that instead of participating in a discussen about an article, you write your admin friends in private and have them threathen anybody you disagree with.

So, asking again made this being entered on my user page:

QUOTE

Please stop your editing without references, which, by the way, looks like „on the wrong side of the enyclopaedic border“. And if you revert that again, I'd have to stop you by efficient means.


The poster was a German administrator, and he has a very anti-French image on his user page.

I posted a request on the bottom of his user page for the removal of said image:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Wahrerwattwurm#Please_remove_hateful_content

This led to immidiate reaction by 3 different user, none of them adressing the issue but rather "shooting back" at me. The 3rd one write in German calling me a "troll" and stating I have no interest in "encyclopedic coopoeration" and asking for my immidate block.

Certainly, the culture at deWiki is very different from enWiki.



Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Law Lord

Yeah, it was stupid of you to whine about and "anti-french" image on an admin's userpage. Especially after getting warned by that admin - it made you appear a blatant troll.