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The idiocy and the irony, banning nonsense goes full circle |
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Kato |
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dhd
Group: Regulars
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Member No.: 767
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A few months ago, I was arguing here with Slim about how, back in the old days, she and others were targeting just about anyone as being a LaRouchie, and I described the chaos that witchhunt had caused. I especially noted an incident when herself and long time user (and another anti-LaRouche figure) 172Â (T-C-L-K-R-D)
discussed banning a totally innocent guy as a "New LaRouche editor" back in 2007. Here is my post, Slim simply batted this incident off by not addressing it specifically - claiming that people weren't banned as LaRouchies without good reason. QUOTE(Kato @ Sun 12th April 2009, 6:07am) Not necessarily so. The whole LaRouche vs anti-LaRouche thing was a farce that had spilled out all over Wikipedia. Wholly unrelated people were getting threatened by Wikipedia powerplayers as "LaRouchies" on a regular basis. People saw it with their own eyes and have not been swayed by Hersch at this site. It was outrageous, and one of my first posts at this site was to highlight one such offense. In April, 2007, an editor went to SlimVirgin and Willbeback and wrote this about Mbhiii (T-C-L-K-R-D)
: QUOTE(User:172) New LaRouche editorThis looks quite familar now. [ 10] Like the last HK sockpuppet blocked by SlimVirgin, HonourableSchoolboy, this account has been editing articles that appear in my recent contributions history or are linked to my userpage. Sigh. 172 | Talk 19:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC) Thanks. Sadly, by now I can spot LaRouche propaganda from a mile away. 172 | Talk 20:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC) The message to SlimVirgin has since been deleted. But the spirit of the message is typical. The accused had nothing to do with LaRouche, and his edits had nothing to do with LaRouche. Yet he was immediately attacked as a "New LaRouche" editor. A group of editors, led by SlimVirgin, and accompanied by anti-LaRouche campaigners Chip Berlet and Dennis King (whose Conflicts Of Interest were never questioned) were allowed to treat Wikipedia like an anti-LaRouche version of the McCarthy witch-hunts. Thus creating massive bad feelings and subverting the whole culture of the place. Well here comes the most ridiculous development yet. Having spent years orchestrating witch-hunts with Slim and Will against LaRouchies, former admin User:172 has himself been indefinitely banned by some lunatic administrator - on the declaration that he is the pro-LaRouche renegade Cognition (T-C-L-K-R-D)
based on "checkuser evidence". So either User:172 was the most brilliant stooge account ever (going back to 2002), or WP's checkuser facitilities are so incompetent, it has convicted the Witchfinder General of being a witch! (IMG: smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) And to cap it off. Slim was right in the mix during these latest banning discussions which nailed 172!
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Kelly Martin |
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Bring back the guttersnipes!
Group: Regulars
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From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696
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QUOTE(One @ Sun 6th September 2009, 12:25pm) Incidentally, I don't recall anyone here defending JoshuaZ's similar claims. Or for that matter, Mantanmoreland's. If Kelly thinks that IPs can be easily spoofed, how do we know the Bassettcat stunt wasn't done by Wordbomb? After all, Wordbomb actually was able to obtain Mantanmoreland's IP addresses--probably unlike the average Larouchian. My problem is that you people keep spouting off about the infalliability of checkuser evidence, when in fact a lot of the time the IP evidence is shot through with holes, largely because the people interpreting it have no real idea what they're doing. However, since you refuse to make the evidence available for public review, all we have to go on is your word, which (given Wikipedia's track record) we cannot fairly trust. I don't think you're lying about the two IPs, but I have no reason to trust your conclusion as to one of those IPs being "residential" and the other not, and your comments indicate to me that you have serious deficiencies in your understanding how the Internet works. If you'd care to share those IPs, I could review your conclusion for reasonability. We can do that privately if you prefer. It's not that I think you're wrong; I just think you've completely failed to make your case, and that your clueless comments have made matters worse for you, rather than better. I still think the most likely conclusion is that 172's account was compromised. Mediawiki transmits passwords in plaintext, so if you log into Wikipedia via an unencrypted public wireless service (which is most Internet cafes) you're broadcasting your username and password for the whole world to see. Most editors don't realize this.
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No one of consequence |
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I want to stare at the seaside and do nothing at all
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Member No.: 1,010
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sun 6th September 2009, 5:43pm) My problem is that you people keep spouting off about the infalliability of checkuser evidence, when in fact a lot of the time the IP evidence is shot through with holes, largely because the people interpreting it have no real idea what they're doing. However, since you refuse to make the evidence available for public review, all we have to go on is your word, which (given Wikipedia's track record) we cannot fairly trust. I don't think you're lying about the two IPs, but I have no reason to trust your conclusion as to one of those IPs being "residential" and the other not, and your comments indicate to me that you have serious deficiencies in your understanding how the Internet works. If you'd care to share those IPs, I could review your conclusion for reasonability. We can do that privately if you prefer.
Here's the thing. The second IP is clearly non-residential with semi-public access, and is clearly labeled as such. Let's assume that the first IP is not, in fact, residential, and is a coffee shop, cafe, library or other small business. Then we have at least 4 editors (172, Cognition, Mrs. Breedlove and Tha-HGlsrqNA) who, within the time span of the checkuser table, edit from the same school/business, and from the same coffee shop/library, and from nowhere else (no home, no wi-fi, no mobile services). That's a pretty big coincidence if they are unrelated. It also means that on July 6, 172Â (T-C-L-K-R-D)
spent almost 24 hours at this coffee shop and on July 8, he edited from there at 1 AM local time. QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sun 6th September 2009, 6:09pm) This is true for most of the major ISPs, but is not true for some smaller community-level ISPs, some of which do not assign public IPs to their customers by default. Instead, they get RFC 1918 private IPs and the ISP translates these onto one or more public IPs owned by the ISP. In this sort of situation, you may end up sharing an IP in real-time with another customer of the ISP.
This used to be more common but most of the smaller ISPs that did this sort of thing have gone under or been bought up by larger ISPs who don't do this. Serving RFC 1918 IPs to end customers is unpopular with customers (for several reasons), and today I'd say that this is likely only to be found in captive-market situations (e.g. nursing homes, dormitories). As far as I know no "large" ISP is doing this.
That's quite informative, thank you. In this case, the ISP is in fact, "large." This post has been edited by No one of consequence:
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Kelly Martin |
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Bring back the guttersnipes!
Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
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From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696
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QUOTE(No one of consequence @ Sun 6th September 2009, 1:31pm) There's a difference between unlabeled and labeled incorrectly. Are you saying that, for example, 198.22.122.15 (which Arin says belongs to BestBuy.com) might be a completely unrelated business or residence? It could be used by an only-vaguely-related business under a sharing or releasing agreement. I've not heard of Best Buy providing such services, but it's possible that they do so under the aegis of their GeekSquad product, which of late has been offering some sort of B2B services. Unless you know exactly how a given business entity has structured its network, and you know exactly every line of business that entity is involved in, you had best be quite circumspect in concluding anything about who or what might be using one of its ranges. ARIN doesn't have a flag for "This IP is residential/commercial/government"; all they tell you is who registered it and who the responsible party (as far as they're concerned) for it is. QUOTE(Lar @ Sun 6th September 2009, 2:10pm) You've certainly never heard me say any such thing ever, and I dispute that Thatcher or CHL have said any such thing here in this thread. Not in so many words, y'all just act as if the evidence were infalliable, whether or not you actually say it is.
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Achromatic |
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Member
Group: Contributors
Posts: 191
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From: Washington State
Member No.: 4,185
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QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Sun 6th September 2009, 12:13pm) QUOTE(No one of consequence @ Sun 6th September 2009, 1:31pm) There's a difference between unlabeled and labeled incorrectly. Are you saying that, for example, 198.22.122.15 (which Arin says belongs to BestBuy.com) might be a completely unrelated business or residence? It could be used by an only-vaguely-related business under a sharing or releasing agreement. I've not heard of Best Buy providing such services, but it's possible that they do so under the aegis of their GeekSquad product, which of late has been offering some sort of B2B services. Unless you know exactly how a given business entity has structured its network, and you know exactly every line of business that entity is involved in, you had best be quite circumspect in concluding anything about who or what might be using one of its ranges. ARIN doesn't have a flag for "This IP is residential/commercial/government"; all they tell you is who registered it and who the responsible party (as far as they're concerned) for it is. Exactly. Using the Best Buy example - they recently bought SpeakEasy, a "large ISP", and offer businesses VOIP and ISP connectivity. Do /you/ as a checkuser know that they've changed the IP address registration with ARIN for none/some/all of their existing addresses? Have new blocks been assigned to Best Buy, or Speakeasy, for the purposes of this new venture? Have existing blocks owned by Best Buy been assigned to Speakeasy for same? You don't. And yet as Kelly says, you have no problem making proclamations from upon high that you have observed something, and it "seems likely" that it matches what you assume. In my examples, an IP address "belonging" to Best Buy could very well be a small business using Best Buy/Speakeasy as their ISP. And you, despite your claims of confidence would have little to no idea of how accurate your claim is - and then there's a dozen variations of same... home users who are VPN'ed to their office. IPv6 tunnels. All sorts of things, you name it.
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Kelly Martin |
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Bring back the guttersnipes!
Group: Regulars
Posts: 3,270
Joined:
From: EN61bw
Member No.: 6,696
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QUOTE(Achromatic @ Sun 6th September 2009, 3:07pm) In my examples, an IP address "belonging" to Best Buy could very well be a small business using Best Buy/Speakeasy as their ISP. Speakeasy was a residential DSL provider in at least the Chicago area, too; at least they used to be a couple years ago. So a Best Buy IP could, possibly, be a residential DSL customer. I've seen some really strange behaviors when people are on corporate VPN clients, especially if they're the type that rely on client proxies for browser redirection, because of bugs in various browsers and/or the VPN client that result in inconsistent use of the proxy. Similar problems happen with the transparent caching proxies used by some ISPs, and then there's all those silly "web accelerator" products out there. Maybe we should start calling all checkusers "Horatio". QUOTE(Kato @ Sun 6th September 2009, 3:34pm) I'm leaning towards the bizarre coincidence theory.
My fallback theory, if the hijack theory proves false, is that 172 was stalked by Cognition with the deliberate intent to get 172's account shut down by the Wikipediot Management as a sockpuppet. That's consistent with LaRouchian behavior; LaRouchians are not known for their commitment to ethical behavior.
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Posts in this topic
Kato The idiocy and the irony Malleus Who is this LaRouche character, and why should I c... Kato
Who is this LaRouche character, and why should I ... A Horse With No Name
Who is this LaRouche character, and why should I ... gomi So either User:172 was the most brilliant stooge a... No one of consequence
So either User:172 was the most brilliant stooge ... Kato
[quote name='gomi' post='192782' date='Sat 5th Se... No one of consequence
Get serious please. 172 was a liberal historian w... One
Get serious please. 172 was a liberal historian w... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='192794' date='Sat 5th Se... One
The only other credible explaination is that Co... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='192802' date='Sat 5th Se... Somey I guess, on reflection and reviewing Cognitions... nobs
I guess, on reflection and reviewing Cognitions... Herschelkrustofsky
Get serious please. 172 was a liberal historian w... One
Well here comes the most ridiculous development y... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='192778' date='Sat 5th Se... One I remember 172 vaguely, and surveying his work ref... Somey Possibilities suggested so far: 1) Cognition creat... Lar
Don't forget the one where 172 and Cognition ... Kato
[quote name='Somey' post='192808' date='Sat 5th S... Herschelkrustofsky
No. The most likely explanation (amazing as it so... Somey First of all, the WP database definitely is f**cke... Kato
User:172 is clearly British, however
No, 172 i... Somey User:172 is clearly British, however No, 172 is (w... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='192844' date='Sat 5th Se... dtobias
I will ignore. Convincing Wikipedia criticism is ... Somey I would disagree strongly there. No criticism tha... Abd ... something more erudite-sounding, like "hi... Kato
This is interesting because Cognition [url=http:/... LessHorrid vanU
...
Well I'll criticise in my way, you in y... One
You know, maybe it is an outrageous coincidence. ... everyking
Everyking: do you think potentially-compromised a... No one of consequence
First of all, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/inde... tarantino
[quote name='Somey' post='192839' date='Sat 5th S... MBisanz
[quote name='Somey' post='192839' date='Sat 5th ... everyking
He was. He didn't reply.
This case is far t... One
[quote name='No one of consequence' post='192885'... gomi
Everyking, did you know that this 172/Cognition e... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='One' post='192896' date='Sat 5th Sep... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='gomi' post='192899' date='Sat 5th Se... Kato
This case is far too simple for all this drama. ... No one of consequence
What you should have done is either email 172 and... Peter Damian
I agree it would have been less dramatic to block... No one of consequence
I agree it would have been less dramatic to bloc... Kato Ok, so there are three options:
[b]Bad hand / Blac... No one of consequence
Ok, so there are three options:
[*][b]Bad hand / ... One
[*][b]Geographical coincidence. As both 172 and C... Kato
[list]
[*][b]Geographical coincidence. As both 17... One
[quote name='Kato' post='192927' date='Sun 6th S... Kato
[quote name='One' post='192935' date='Sun 6th Se... No one of consequence
But don't random people share "residenti... Kelly Martin Residential IPs are assigned one to one. For as l... gomi [quote name='Kato' post='192945' date='Sun 6th Sep... Kelly Martin Some dude selling badges edited WP on my current h... Kato
Some dude selling badges edited WP on my current ... Ceoil Who knows. To be fair to elaborate sock puppeteers... MBisanz
[quote name='Kato' post='192938' date='Sun 6th Se... No one of consequence
What does this mean though, "residential... Kato
What you should have done is either email 172 an... Kelly Martin We did email him, he did not reply. It's Labor... One
You've managed to convince me that you're... GlassBeadGame The puppet-provocateur theory makes sense to me. ... Kato
The puppet-provocateur theory makes sense to me. ... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='192830' da... No one of consequence
I am now inclined to believe that the "new... Kato
[quote name='Somey' post='192839' date='Sat 5th S... Kato
I've just examined the back and forth at [url... taiwopanfob Here the simpler technical explanation points to a... Kato
I remember 172 vaguely, and surveying his work re... Kato Slim reckons the black ops / stalking horse theory... One
It still looks more credible than Slim's beli... Hell Freezes Over
Cognition's behaviour looks typical LaRouche ... GlassBeadGame
Cognition's behaviour looks typical LaRouche... Kato
"Chip Berlet is a 5 cent thug in a long-rang... Random832 "Chip Berlet is a 5 cent thug in a long-range... Herschelkrustofsky
Cognition's behaviour looks typical LaRouche ... It's the blimp, Frank Is it possible that there is a huge technical glit... MBisanz I don't know anything about the current player... Newyorkbrad
(background snipped)
Well here comes the most rid... Somey So it just seems to me that it might have been bet... Kelly Martin So it just seems to me that it might have been bet... everyking
If Cognition is the creepy-crazy LaRouchian who w... Kelly Martin So you're saying you actually saw a LaRouchite... MBisanz
So you're saying you actually saw a LaRouchit... Cla68
[quote name='Kelly Martin' post='192897' date='Su... Herschelkrustofsky
So you're saying you actually saw a LaRouchit... TungstenCarbide If Cognition is the creepy-crazy LaRouchian who we... Somey For more background, there's this thread, whic... Kato The plot thickens.
Someone has corrected me on th... Somey This is interesting because Cognition [url=http://... The Joy Is there anyway for the CheckUsers to look at data... Grep There's another way in which CU results can gi... Somey There's another way in which CU results can gi... Kato
If anything, it's surprising Hersfold didn... everyking From my perspective, the most ludicrous aspect of ... GlassBeadGame
From my perspective, the most ludicrous aspect of... One You and SlimVirgin seem to disagree about what is ... Krimpet Assuming some folks at a meetup brought their lapt... MBisanz
Assuming some folks at a meetup brought their lap... Kato 172 said he was employed at a college in St Peters... No one of consequence
172 said he was employed at a college in St Peter... Kato
One appears to be residential (belongs to a commo... Moulton Why would an IP necessarily be marked as residenti... No one of consequence
Why would an IP necessarily be marked as resident... Kelly Martin Personally I'm leaning toward the "hijack... bambi
I heard a bit on the radio the other day about AT... One
It's not that I think you're wrong; I jus... everyking
It's not that I think you're wrong; I ju... One
What could be the motive for taking over an accou... everyking
What could be the motive for taking over an acco... Kato
[quote name='One' post='192981' date='Sun 6th Sep... bambi
There's a difference between unlabeled and la... Herschelkrustofsky
LaRouchians are not known for their commitment t... Lar
My problem is that you people keep spouting off a... Kato
Incidentally, I don't recall anyone here defe... One I mentioned this before, but when you sort their e... Kato
I mentioned this before, but when you sort their ... One
I'm not sure there are enough edits by Cognit... bambi Here's a solution to replace Checkuser: Chine... Herschelkrustofsky Although I don't think a Will Beback or someon... Herschelkrustofsky I'm looking over the headers on some emails I ... Kato
I'm looking over the headers on some emails I... Herschelkrustofsky
I'm looking over the headers on some emails ... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='193054' date='Mon 7th Se... carbuncle
I'm looking over the headers on some emails I... MBisanz
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='193050' da... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='193050' d... Kelly Martin Received: from [71.101.207.204] by web38309.mail.... MBisanz
Received: from [71.101.207.204] by web38309.mail... Random832
I'm looking over the headers on some emails I... One
Are you sure the "originating IP" isn... Kato After going over everything yet again, I can only ... A Horse With No Name The irony is that LaRouche gets more attention on ... Guido den Broeder I have no idea who this LaRouche dude is, even tho... everyking While 172 has so far said nothing, Cognition did d... Kato In late 2005, Cognition writes to Raul:
he writ... MBisanz
In late 2005, Cognition [url=http://en.wikipedia.... Kato
Raul hasn't edited since September 1 and Phil... TungstenCarbide 172 was extremely bad tempered but highly articula... Herschelkrustofsky
172 was extremely bad tempered but highly articul... One
Y'know, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index... Kato
Y'know, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/inde... Kelly Martin It seems that you, Hersfold and Thatcher are under... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='193193' date='Tue 8th Se... One
And just because I mention universities, it doesn... Kelly Martin And yeah, the University of South Florida is certa... Kato
And yeah, the University of South Florida is cert... No one of consequence
And yeah, the University of South Florida is cert... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='193201' date='Tue 8th Se... Lar
Whatever. I am checkuser, hear me roar. I am bo... tarantino
[quote name='One' post='193205' date='Tue 8th Sep... MBisanz
[quote name='One' post='193205' date='Tue 8th Se... Random832 I still don't understand this "IPs were n... dtobias Or maybe this time the checkusers are right after ... Kelly Martin Or maybe this time the checkusers are right after ... TungstenCarbide
[quote name='dtobias' post='193293' date='Tue 8th... MBisanz
[quote name='dtobias' post='193293' date='Tue 8t... TungstenCarbide I already linked that several sections up.
Good f... Lar
I already linked that several sections up.
Good ... Random832
[quote name='dtobias' post='193293' date='Tue 8th... Kato
Whose problem is it if you think that making a bl... Kato Update: There's a direct link between Cognitio... One
Update: There's a direct link between Cogniti... everyking Apparently amidst all this nobody else has had the... Hell Freezes Over Snowspinner has confirmed that Cognition was at th... The Joy
Snowspinner has confirmed that Cognition was at t... everyking
Snowspinner has confirmed that Cognition was at t... One
Surely anyone can accept that there's enough ... everyking
[quote name='everyking' post='193420' date='Wed 9... No one of consequence
So how far do these IP records go back? Are we sa... everyking
So how far do these IP records go back? Are we s... No one of consequence
Thanks for not answering the question.
There... Kato
Let's say he never comes back and never even... One
No, but there is good reason to listen to 172... everyking
Of course not, but that tag was a different quest... No one of consequence
Snowspinner has confirmed that Cognition was at ... Kato
Snowspinner has confirmed that Cognition was at t... Hell Freezes Over
[quote name='Hell Freezes Over' post='193407' dat... Grep Apart from the (rather likely) possibilities of pu... Random832
Apart from the (rather likely) possibilities of p... Grep
... the confluence in a single pair of IP address... Random832 Anyway, isn't 172's IP address supposed to... MBisanz As I have said before, I really do not see the poi... Kelly Martin It's also possible that an account could be co... MBisanz
It's also possible that an account could be c... TungstenCarbide
It's also possible that an account could be c... Kelly Martin Can't checkusers save data and then manually c... No one of consequence
Last I heard the checkuser history was around 35 ... Kelly Martin
So, a current checkuser, who is authorized to see... trenton
So, how much of an affirmative duty do you believ... Kelly Martin There's nothing terribly secret about the leng... Random832 I know the checkuser data period was 90 days at on... Kelly Martin :hmmm: Aren't sites supposed to have a privacy... Herschelkrustofsky
[quote name='Random832' post='193484' date='Wed 9... CharlotteWebb
I had heard that it was 90 days as well, but I... Random832 An earlier thread here came to essentially the sam... Herschelkrustofsky
But unless you actually used the AOL browser ther... Kato
[quote name='CharlotteWebb' post='193539' date='T... Appleby
:hmmm: Aren't sites supposed to have a privac... Kato
[quote name='Kato' post='193592' date='Thu 10th ... Herschelkrustofsky
SlimVirgin can't oversight.
I think he mean... Kato
[quote name='Appleby' post='193644' date='Fri 11t... No one of consequence
The dual identity is unrealistic because 172 was ... Random832 We're no closer to finding out the truth. But ... A Horse With No Name
Not my immediate thought, but all bets are off at... Herschelkrustofsky
Will Beback created that list. Actually, SlimVir... Kato I looked at one of your supposed socks at random a... It's the blimp, Frank It's funny that you should mention that bit ab... Herschelkrustofsky No LaRouche activist would say something like ... dtobias Nice of Slim to demonstrate that there are instanc... CharlotteWebb
Nice of Slim to demonstrate that there are instan... Herschelkrustofsky Will Beback, who speaks for the "old cabal,... CharlotteWebb
Will Beback, who speaks for the "old cabal,... Herschelkrustofsky
Actually he said "A recent checkuser finding... Peter Damian I'm resurrecting this thread for reasons which... Heat
I'm resurrecting this thread for reasons whic... Peter Damian
Heh. Curiously, the doc doesn't have a wikipe... Herschelkrustofsky
I am also intrigued whether the man in the film, ... Peter Damian
[quote name='Peter Damian' post='300452' date='Su... Heat
Heh. Curiously, the doc doesn't have a wikip... Peter Damian See also this
qKxjvroP0jQ
Herschelkrustofsky I had extensive encounters with both 172 and Cogni... mbz1
I had extensive encounters with both 172 and Cogn... Herschelkrustofsky
But why 172 has never responded to emails that a... Peter Damian
However, in 2009, someone showed up at the Wikip... mbz1 BTW the story of 172 is not unique to wikipedia ... Herschelkrustofsky The 2009 version of Cognition uses dry, neutral la... Peter Damian
The 2009 version of Cognition uses dry, neutral l... Heat
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='300498' da... DiotimaPhil Here's the man himself. Cognition talking abou... TungstenCarbide Here's the man himself. Cognition talking abou... DiotimaPhil Cognition at a Wikipedia meetup with Jimmy Wales i... DiotimaPhil Well, if you want to know the full truth behind th... Herschelkrustofsky Was the Review your first introduction to this sto... DiotimaPhil
Was the Review your first introduction to this st... everyking I would certainly be interested to hear about what...
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