The assault on Wiki-Porn: A hint of motive? Options

[anthony]

Wales:

We were about to be smeared in all media as hosting hardcore pornography
and doing nothing about it. Now, the correct storyline is that we are
cleaning up. I'm proud to have made sure that storyline broke the way
it did, and I'm sorry I had to step on some toes to make it happen.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/195376

Perhaps that explains his choice of images. Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

[tarantino]

Perhaps that explains his choice of images.

That's a good theory. It maybe time to compile a new list of images to distribute to the media.

Regarding historical art, the nun masturbating is the not the most outrageous work on commons. Paintings of men having sex with prepubescent boys is something that most parents would cringe at.

[GlassBeadGame]

Wales:

We were about to be smeared in all media as hosting hardcore pornography
and doing nothing about it. Now, the correct storyline is that we are
cleaning up. I'm proud to have made sure that storyline broke the way
it did, and I'm sorry I had to step on some toes to make it happen.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/195376

Perhaps that explains his choice of images. Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

You're not suppose to say "I'm doing spin control" when you do spin control.

[TungstenCarbide]

Wales:

We were about to be smeared in all media as hosting hardcore pornography
and doing nothing about it. Now, the correct storyline is that we are
cleaning up. I'm proud to have made sure that storyline broke the way
it did, and I'm sorry I had to step on some toes to make it happen.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/wiki/foundation/195376
Perhaps that explains his choice of images. Wasn't Sanger collecting a list of images to hand out to reporters? I'll bet Wales got a copy of that list (from a reporter perhaps), and I'll further bet that the St. Therese image was on that list.

not bad, Anthony.

Although Jimbo isn't known for his thoughtfulness or deep concentration, I can't believe he's clueless enough to think his deletions will make any difference in the long run. Also, in the past Jimbo hasn't hesitated to de-sysop people for wheel warring, but not this time. There's no way his 'leadership' will stand without whacking a few commons admins. All this suggests that Jimbo had a narrow short term goal.

[Jon Awbrey]

Although Jimbo isn't known for his thoughtfulness or deep concentration, I can't believe he's clueless enough to think his deletions will make any difference in the long run. Also, in the past Jimbo hasn't hesitated to de-sysop people for wheel warring, but not this time. There's no way his 'leadership' will stand without whacking a few commons admins. All this suggests that Jimbo had a narrow short term goal.

It doesn't take a genius to repeat a trick that has worked 4 and 20 times before — and we have seen this one at least that many times from Jimbo, even if the MIB mind-eraser has deleted it from most of your memories.

When all the shouting and is over, and 99% of the BLP Defamation, er, Porn is back in place, Jimbo be able to give the same excuse he always gives — "Aw shucks, I tried to do the right thing, but The Community wouldn't let me."

Jon

[Kelly Martin]

That's a good theory. It maybe time to compile a new list of images to distribute to the media.

If you want a good collection of gratuitous nudity with no merit, try Category:Upskirt for starters. Not everything in there is meritless, but quite a few are.

Another possible: Category:Female bottomlessness in photography.

[TungstenCarbide]

That's a good theory. It maybe time to compile a new list of images to distribute to the media.

If you want a good collection of gratuitous nudity with no merit, try Category:Upskirt for starters. Not everything in there is meritless, but quite a few are.

Another possible: Category:Female bottomlessness in photography.

The zelots at wikipedia are blinded in their faith that any and all smut is to be honored for its 'educational' value.

[anthony]

That's a good theory. It maybe time to compile a new list of images to distribute to the media.

If you want a good collection of gratuitous nudity with no merit, try Category:Upskirt for starters. Not everything in there is meritless, but quite a few are.

Another possible: Category:Female bottomlessness in photography.

Geez. How can Jimbo say that he's successfully averted a media crisis when there's so much still there? The story can't go on based on those categories you've just presented? What about when they're still there (and more) a couple weeks from now, after the "cleanup" efforts have clearly died off.

[tarantino]

What about when they're still there (and more) a couple weeks from now, after the "cleanup" efforts have clearly died off.

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) - Re-upload Commons artwork that's been deleted by Jimbo Wales

* Support but wait. As I suggested on Commons, I think patience is the best weapon here. We should take some time - maybe a few months - to let both Jimbo and the media calm down and divert their attention to other matters before we directly challenge his authority with a move like this. Jimbo does not hesitate to desysop admins who wheel war with him. The repealing of CSD T1, originally ordained by Jimbo, shows that his decrees can be reversed given community support and time. There is no deadline. Dcoetzee 20:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Except this is a proposal, so it is not wheel-warring, it is consensus. He cannot desysop anyone for that. SilverserenC 20:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

To the contrary, he has and will block people who take action against him, regardless of consensus. That's what it means to be a dictator. I just don't think a frontal assault can win in this battle, he's too powerful. He has a dreadfully short attention span and we should use that against him. Dcoetzee 21:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

...

[EricBarbour]

To the contrary, he has and will block people who take action against him, regardless of consensus. That's what it means to be a dictator. I just don't think a frontal assault can win in this battle, he's too powerful. He has a dreadfully short attention span and we should use that against him. Dcoetzee 21:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Good. That's the secret: make them fight among themselves.

From Foundation-l:

Jimmy wheel-warred to force a number of perfectly acceptable images to
stay deleted.
And nobody felt comfortable blocking him for what would have resulted
in a quick block if it was anyone else going crazy and refusing to
listen to other admins.
Combined, that is what people are outraged about at the moment. And
this is not the first time that he has gone overboard.

No. The key is that you're willfully ignorant, willfully aloof, or some
horrible combination of the two. How many people have to say "YOU'RE FUCKING
UP" before you'll listen? Nobody had an issue with the deletion of some of
the hardcore, homemade, bad porn that you deleted. But, like a bull in a
china shop, you simply couldn't stop yourself, could you? And when people
pointed out your errors, rather than say "I'm sorry" and restore the images,
you re-deleted and continued your rampage.

Anything for a headline? What a jackass you are.

As I said earlier, your actions make us look guilty when we're not. If
we had had a reasoned discussion about it instead of you wildly flailing
at the "delete" button, then we could have actually pointed at
[[Category:Pedophilia]] to demonstrate that we *don't* actually host
illegal materials. On this, I am in complete agreement with Greg Maxwell.

After his initial deletion spree, there were widespread objections from
the community. In many different forums, hundreds of users registered
their objections. By the time Jimbo returned, nearly 100 users had
signed a statement calling for his "Founder Flag" powers to be
removed.

In response, Jimbo:

• Did not apologize, but expressed pride in his earlier actions
• Encouraged other admins to mimic his actions
• Deleted the entirety of his talk page, which had filled with concerns.

At this point, discussing the original issue (porn) is really besides the point.
This behavior is not acceptable.

I propose:

1. Jimbo does not have the confidence of the community.
2. The "founder" status needs to be removed to reflect that.

Behold!......the natives are restless!

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??

[Milton Roe]

As I said earlier, your actions make us look guilty when we're not. If
we had had a reasoned discussion about it instead of you wildly flailing
at the "delete" button, then we could have actually pointed at
[[Category:Pedophilia]] to demonstrate that we *don't* actually host
illegal materials. On this, I am in complete agreement with Greg Maxwell.

After his initial deletion spree, there were widespread objections from
the community. In many different forums, hundreds of users registered
their objections. By the time Jimbo returned, nearly 100 users had
signed a statement calling for his "Founder Flag" powers to be
removed.

In response, Jimbo:

• Did not apologize, but expressed pride in his earlier actions
• Encouraged other admins to mimic his actions
• Deleted the entirety of his talk page, which had filled with concerns.

At this point, discussing the original issue (porn) is really besides the point.
This behavior is not acceptable.

I propose:

1. Jimbo does not have the confidence of the community.
2. The "founder" status needs to be removed to reflect that.

Behold!......the natives are restless!

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??

Yes. A less competant version of SlimVirgin.

He had the chance to learn from the best, and he's only doing moderately well at it, even with superior firepower.

[John Limey]

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??[/b]

Urgh. There's too much happening in the wikiworld for me to stay off of WR.

In any case, the fall of Jimmy Wales would be a very bad thing for Wikipedia. A semi-competent to incompetent god-king is better than complete anarchy. At least there are ways to pressure Wales via donors/the media/public pressure. Take away Wales and there's no way to apply pressure to Wikipedia.

[EricBarbour]

Ooohhh! Even "Mister Deadman" admits there's a problem!
(After accusing Larry Sanger of doing all this to keep Citizendium going, of course....)

I've been working on the RationalWiki article on the decline and
all-but-collapse of Citizendium:
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Citizendium - CZ now has less
contributors or actitvity than *Conservapedia*. And a lot of that was
due to hasty interventions from the founder. (Leading to this final
last-ditch attempt to drum up interest by attacking Wikipedia.)

I doubt Wikimedia is going to collapse soon, it's a bit big. But this
sort of thing drives away the community disproportionately.

And here we go again, with the "Ban Jimbo" crap.....

This post has been edited by EricBarbour: Sat 8th May 2010, 10:19pm

[carbuncle]

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) - Re-upload Commons artwork that's been deleted by Jimbo Wales

* Support but wait. As I suggested on Commons, I think patience is the best weapon here. We should take some time - maybe a few months - to let both Jimbo and the media calm down and divert their attention to other matters before we directly challenge his authority with a move like this. Jimbo does not hesitate to desysop admins who wheel war with him. The repealing of CSD T1, originally ordained by Jimbo, shows that his decrees can be reversed given community support and time. There is no deadline. Dcoetzee 20:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Except this is a proposal, so it is not wheel-warring, it is consensus. He cannot desysop anyone for that. SilverserenC 20:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I hope Jimbo hasn't been deleting furry images on Wikipedia.

[Kelly Martin]

In any case, the fall of Jimmy Wales would be a very bad thing for Wikipedia. A semi-competent to incompetent god-king is better than complete anarchy. At least there are ways to pressure Wales via donors/the media/public pressure. Take away Wales and there's no way to apply pressure to Wikipedia.

I'm not convinced of that; it's more likely that he'd be replaced by local leadership on each project. Most of the projects have people would naturally rise to leadership except for the overlooming presence of Jimmy preventing local leadership from building acceptance. Jimmy's steadfast insistence on maintaining a state of permanent leaderlessness has much to do with the ongoing governance failures.

Also, while it's possible to pressure Jimmy through the press or donors, doing so is extremely hard and has a very low chance of getting the end result one desires.

[SB_Johnny]

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??[/b]

Urgh. There's too much happening in the wikiworld for me to stay off of WR.

In any case, the fall of Jimmy Wales would be a very bad thing for Wikipedia. A semi-competent to incompetent god-king is better than complete anarchy. At least there are ways to pressure Wales via donors/the media/public pressure. Take away Wales and there's no way to apply pressure to Wikipedia.

Je suis d'accord, but honestly, he's incompetent. He deserves kudos for trying, but I think he may have gone past the point of no return here, and I don't think he has the diplomatic abilities to convince the volunteer army to follow his agenda.

It really is a shame: he's a great spokesperson and advocate, but I don't think he's realized yet the nature of the thing he's advocating and speaking for.

Or, if Kelly will allow me to riff on her trademarked phrase: I think the day has been hastened.

[GlassBeadGame]

What you are seeing in Mr. Wales clamp down on pornography is the heel of The Little Boot. Wales, as Godking, is an entity of "the community" not WMF. He says he has WMF backing. But then the Board responds in an ambiguous fashion. But The Little Boot will be tried first because they are desperately trying to maintain the separation of WMF and "the community." This separation has never been more important than during the night as they wait for law enforcement to come for the servers with warrants.

If The Little Boot fails to achieve sufficient cleansing and WMF has to continue to fear what is on its own servers we will see the heel of The Big Boot. This will not come from the Board itself but from their one clear agent in this convoluted mess, Gardner. Of course it is unlikely that she will want to do this with Moeller at her side. If Wales succeeds the status quo will basically remain in tact. WMF will continue to abdicate responsibility for content to the community. If we see the day of heel of The Big Boot it will mark a real departure. Eventually it will lead to policy guidance on content from the Board and enforcement through staff overseen by Gardner.

In terms of achieving long term stable responsibility in respect to content The Big Boot is preferable.

[Kevin]

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??[/b]

Urgh. There's too much happening in the wikiworld for me to stay off of WR.

In any case, the fall of Jimmy Wales would be a very bad thing for Wikipedia. A semi-competent to incompetent god-king is better than complete anarchy. At least there are ways to pressure Wales via donors/the media/public pressure. Take away Wales and there's no way to apply pressure to Wikipedia.

Perhaps a spell of anarchy is what is needed right now. It would point out the lack of governance issue more clearly than the current semi-anarchy.

[Cedric]

Now do you faux-geniuses see what kind of person Jimmy Wales really is??[/b]

Urgh. There's too much happening in the wikiworld for me to stay off of WR.

In any case, the fall of Jimmy Wales would be a very bad thing for Wikipedia. A semi-competent to incompetent god-king is better than complete anarchy. At least there are ways to pressure Wales via donors/the media/public pressure. Take away Wales and there's no way to apply pressure to Wikipedia.

Je suis d'accord, but honestly, he's incompetent. He deserves kudos for trying, but I think he may have gone past the point of no return here, and I don't think he has the diplomatic abilities to convince the volunteer army to follow his agenda.

It really is a shame: he's a great spokesperson and advocate, but I don't think he's realized yet the nature of the thing he's advocating and speaking for.

Or, if Kelly will allow me to riff on her trademarked phrase: I think the day has been hastened.

Actually, I "trademarked" it, but feel free to use. I really don't know if The Great Wiki Ragnarok™ is close at hand, but I have long suspected this was the sort of thing that could serve as a tipping point. As Brandt observed, this is hardly new and we have been banging on about this for years. Only now are significant numbers taking notice.

[John Limey]

What you are seeing in Mr. Wales clamp down on pornography is the heel of The Little Boot. Wales, as Godking, is an entity of "the community" not WMF. He says he has WMF backing. But then the Board responds in an ambiguous fashion. But The Little Boot will be tried first because they are desperately trying to maintain the separation of WMF and "the community." This separation has never been more important than during the night as they wait for law enforcement to come for the servers with warrants.

If The Little Boot fails to achieve sufficient cleansing and WMF has to continue to fear what is on its own servers we will see the heel of The Big Boot. This will not come from the Board itself but from their one clear agent in this convoluted mess, Gardner. Of course it is unlikely that she will want to do this with Moeller at her side. If Wales succeeds the status quo will basically remain in tact. WMF will continue to abdicate responsibility for content to the community. If we see the day of heel of The Big Boot it will mark a real departure. Eventually it will lead policy guidance on content from the Board and enforcement through staff overseen by Gardner.

In terms of achieving long term stable responsibility in respect to content The Big Boot is preferable.

Yes, obviously the "Big Boot" would be best, but I don't think it will ever happen. The status quo works too well, the WMF can stay out of the day-to-day, which has many advantages while they have Wales to occasionally go in and mop up. I don't think, though, that the Big Boot of the Foundation will ever get involved. They have Section 230 immunity to hide behind, so there's essentially no legal threat (and the official position on this issue is that there is no legal concern). The PR threat is relevant, but there are other ways to manage it.

Gardner would never get involved in content issues without being told to do so by the board, and the current board would never tell her to do that. The day may come when we have an activist board at the WMF. At that time, real change can happen, but I think we're at least 6 years out from that possibility.

Perhaps a spell of anarchy is what is needed right now. It would point out the lack of governance issue more clearly than the current semi-anarchy.

We had to destroy the village in order to save it? Yea, maybe.