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> World War II, The anti-US version
Fusion
post Mon 26th March 2012, 11:19am
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Sun 25th March 2012, 6:41pm) *

In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than Britain or France in absolute numbers. Only resource that really matters.

Why do you confine yourself to Britain and France? Should we not compare Europe as a whole with the USA? Or shall we compare Britain to California? Not that I am saying that Europe was an integrated body, just that we need to compare potatoes with potatoes and not turnips.


And just to note that Russia is likely to get Belarus and Kazakhstan back as colonies.
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Emperor
post Mon 26th March 2012, 1:09pm
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I just noticed the caption under the map:

QUOTE(Wikipedia)
World map of colonization at the end of the Second World War in 1945. With the end of the war, the wars of national liberation ensued, leading to the creation of Israel, the often bloody decolonization of Asia and (somewhat later) of Africa.


Wars of national liberation links here.

NPOV! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
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Emperor
post Mon 26th March 2012, 1:19pm
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QUOTE(Fusion @ Mon 26th March 2012, 7:19am) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Sun 25th March 2012, 6:41pm) *

In terms of men killed, the USA lost more than Britain or France in absolute numbers. Only resource that really matters.

Why do you confine yourself to Britain and France? Should we not compare Europe as a whole with the USA? Or shall we compare Britain to California? Not that I am saying that Europe was an integrated body, just that we need to compare potatoes with potatoes and not turnips.


And just to note that Russia is likely to get Belarus and Kazakhstan back as colonies.


First let's just agree to exclude Russia from our discussion of post-WWII decolonization.

Second, the reason we are comparing numbers is because Wikipedia is asserting that decolonization was driven by wars of national liberation that the Europeans couldn't handle because of loss of prestige and resources.

It's a controversial assertion at best.
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post Mon 26th March 2012, 1:42pm
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Buy yourself some good, old, high school books about World War II. That should tell you most of what you need to know about World War II.
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Mister Die
post Mon 26th March 2012, 6:47pm
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 26th March 2012, 1:09pm) *

I just noticed the caption under the map:

QUOTE(Wikipedia)
World map of colonization at the end of the Second World War in 1945. With the end of the war, the wars of national liberation ensued, leading to the creation of Israel, the often bloody decolonization of Asia and (somewhat later) of Africa.


Wars of national liberation links here.

NPOV! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Yeah, that's just... wrong. The Gold Coast didn't wage a national liberation war, nor did Niger, or French Sudan (aka Mali), or Chad, etc.

The only countries that did (sans Algeria) were Mozambique, Angola, Portuguese Guinea, Cape Verde, and São Tomé and Príncipe, all Portuguese colonies and all of them starting a little more than 15 years after WWII had ended. If I'm recalling right Cameroon also had some militant activity in the 50's via the Union of Peoples of Cameroon, but I don't think that qualifies.

Of course Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia did have wars of national liberation as well in the late 40's and early 50's. These are the only three relevant cases since they were a direct result of WWII. Of course you could just use "independence struggle" rather than "national liberation war."

The other odd thing is classifying the creation of Israel as a "war of national liberation," something significantly NPOV as well.

This post has been edited by Mister Die: Mon 26th March 2012, 6:58pm
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Fusion
post Thu 29th March 2012, 8:01pm
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 26th March 2012, 2:19pm) *

First let's just agree to exclude Russia from our discussion of post-WWII decolonization.

What a good idea. Whenever someone comes up with a very good argument that defeats your argument, you can try to rubbish that argument. If that fails, you say "let's just agree not to use that argument". I must use that method next time I have a problem on Wikipedia. Thank you for suggesting it.
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Emperor
post Thu 29th March 2012, 8:18pm
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QUOTE(Fusion @ Thu 29th March 2012, 4:01pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 26th March 2012, 2:19pm) *

First let's just agree to exclude Russia from our discussion of post-WWII decolonization.

What a good idea. Whenever someone comes up with a very good argument that defeats your argument, you can try to rubbish that argument. If that fails, you say "let's just agree not to use that argument". I must use that method next time I have a problem on Wikipedia. Thank you for suggesting it.


Russia's interactions with Eastern Europe and Central Asia are different than the post-WWII decolonization phenomenon which is the topic of discussion. I'm not saying Russia isn't an empire, just that in the context of this part of the Wikipedia article, they're clearly not talking about Russia.
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Emperor
post Thu 29th March 2012, 8:21pm
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QUOTE(Mister Die @ Mon 26th March 2012, 2:47pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Mon 26th March 2012, 1:09pm) *

I just noticed the caption under the map:

QUOTE(Wikipedia)
World map of colonization at the end of the Second World War in 1945. With the end of the war, the wars of national liberation ensued, leading to the creation of Israel, the often bloody decolonization of Asia and (somewhat later) of Africa.


Wars of national liberation links here.

NPOV! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Yeah, that's just... wrong. The Gold Coast didn't wage a national liberation war, nor did Niger, or French Sudan (aka Mali), or Chad, etc.

The only countries that did (sans Algeria) were Mozambique, Angola, Portuguese Guinea, Cape Verde, and São Tomé and Príncipe, all Portuguese colonies and all of them starting a little more than 15 years after WWII had ended. If I'm recalling right Cameroon also had some militant activity in the 50's via the Union of Peoples of Cameroon, but I don't think that qualifies.

Of course Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia did have wars of national liberation as well in the late 40's and early 50's. These are the only three relevant cases since they were a direct result of WWII. Of course you could just use "independence struggle" rather than "national liberation war."

The other odd thing is classifying the creation of Israel as a "war of national liberation," something significantly NPOV as well.


Yes I think Jews and Arabs can agree the 1948 stuff wasn't very Marxism-related. Sorry I didn't notice your reply until today.
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Fusion
post Sat 31st March 2012, 8:04pm
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QUOTE(Emperor @ Thu 29th March 2012, 9:18pm) *

Russia's interactions with Eastern Europe and Central Asia are different than the post-WWII decolonization phenomenon which is the topic of discussion. I'm not saying Russia isn't an empire, just that in the context of this part of the Wikipedia article, they're clearly not talking about Russia.

Thank you for your brilliant master class in how to dismiss arguments that you cannot rebut. I am very impressed.
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Web Fred
post Sat 31st March 2012, 9:16pm
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QUOTE(Fusion @ Sat 31st March 2012, 9:04pm) *

QUOTE(Emperor @ Thu 29th March 2012, 9:18pm) *

Russia's interactions with Eastern Europe and Central Asia are different than the post-WWII decolonization phenomenon which is the topic of discussion. I'm not saying Russia isn't an empire, just that in the context of this part of the Wikipedia article, they're clearly not talking about Russia.

Thank you for your brilliant master class in how to dismiss arguments that you cannot rebut. I am very impressed.


Something he excels at I'm afraid.
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