JoshuaZ looks at Section 230, and gives me an idea... Options

The foul deed of reversing Doc has been done. The closing admin Xoloz restored the redirect, but felt it was unnecessary to move back the entire 2,600-version history. However, wikifascist JoshuaZ went ahead and moved it back. Now I have to watch the PIR article every day for the rest of my life.

There is no acknowledgement from OTRS that I sent them anything. I don't think OTRS exists at all; I have been jostling with Wikipedia for more than two years and I've never seen any evidence that it exists. I believe it's a black hole. Some admins pretend it exists in order to evade responsibility for blocking those with BLP complaints, but it's only a trick.

We'll have to take steps... If this isn't undone within 48 hours, I'm going to have to reverse my earlier positions on both Google-indexing of this entire forum (currently disabled) and redaction of personal names (which we've apparently been far too accommodating about, judging by this).

If we reverse those policies, I'm going to make damn sure EVERYONE on Wikipedia knows that it was JoshuaZ who made it happen.

OK, I'm just going to bump this up in the hopes that it increases Joshie's chances of seeing it.

We're going to wait until, say, 2 AM UTC tomorrow night, maybe a little earlier - that's about 9 PM my time, or roughly 24 hours from now. At that point, if the history of that article is still available behind the redirect, we'll lift the bot restrictions, and add a little banner to the top of index.php that says something like this:

Due to the recent actions of Wikipedia administrator Joshua Zelinsky (aka User:JoshuaZ), this website will no longer hide its "Editors" forum from searchbots. All publicly-viewable material will, from now on, also be listed and indexed on all major search engines.

That's fairly concise and understandable, isn't it? I mean, sure, it's not in machine language, but Josh should manage to get the gist of it at least.

We'll keep that up for a week or two, maybe three weeks - it'll be unsightly, but it should get the point across well enough.

To my mind, anyone in a position of responsibility and authority at Wikipedia (that includes all admins) should be accountable and hence not anonymous. Note that Google's Knol is adopting the policy that all articles are signed by credentialed authors.

If people want to write opinion pieces, let them use blogs. If they want to write encyclopedic articles (especially about identifiable living people), let them take off the mask of anonymous cowardice and become responsible and ethical biographers.

Are you sure you're in the right thread, Moulton...? JoshuaZ isn't anonymous, though he was originally. He gave up his anonymity in writing this Letter to the Editor of the Yale Daily News, implying that a fellow Yale student should be expelled for creating "hoax articles" on Wikipedia - which in turn could arguably have been deemed legitimate experiments to determine WP's ability to twig to hoax articles. (Though to be fair, they probably weren't "legitimate experiments," really.)

All I'm saying is that we've been fighting them over this and other BLP-related matters for two years now. Two years, and when we finally reach the point where we can finally call a truce, stand down, and maybe even end the hostilities altogether - in effect, stopping the madness - who comes along and snatches it all away?

Josh Zelinsky, that's who.

And for no reason other than sheer, malignant vindictiveness and spite. I don't care if he occasionally says reasonable things or even takes an apparently fair-minded approach to problems every once in a while... This is a person who thrives on causing, and especially prolonging, misery in others - including his own peers on Wikipedia. If not especially his peers on Wikipedia. Sure, some of them may deserve it, but a good 90 percent of them do not. Not after two years, anyway.

My comment goes beyond Joshua Zelinsky to the larger question of accountability for all those exercising editorial, supervisory, or administrative power at Wikipedia.

And of course, carrying this out will cause all links to WR to be even more agressively removed, thus increasing readership much better than anything else could. Sad thing is, this will still work even though I just said what would happen.

Whoever reads my OTRS will probably be afraid to verify to me that it was received. Does anyone have an address where Mike Godwin would get a registered letter?

I don't have that, but according to Florida Division of Corporations the registered agent for the Foundation is:

CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
1200 S PINE ISLAND RD
PLANTATION FL 33324 US

Whoever reads my OTRS will probably be afraid to verify to me that it was received. Does anyone have an address where Mike Godwin would get a registered letter?

I don't have that, but according to Florida Division of Corporations the registered agent for the Foundation is:

CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
1200 S PINE ISLAND RD
PLANTATION FL 33324 US

You have to be kidding. That's almost as good as a P.O. box in the Cayman Islands. I had an attorney from Florida contact me several months ago. He was frustrated because he was trying to serve process on Wikimedia Foundation. He used one address he found, and that didn't work. I gave him another address for the Foundation that I found, and I don't know if that worked. I also gave him an address for Jimbo's residence, and pointed out that Jimbo was on the Board, but he's always traveling and it might be hard to find him, even if that residence address was still accurate.

I had to convince this attorney that as far as I know, there actually is a little office somewhere that's used by Cary Bass and Brion Vibber and (at the time) Carolyn Doran.

I think I'll ask Cade Metz (who interviewed me about SlimVirgin on November 28) for Godwin's telephone, and then call Godwin and ask him directly for 1) a fax number and 2) a street address where he personally is available to sign for registered mail.

About OTRS, I still haven't heard anything from them. How does that thing work? Since I've never seen it work, my impression is that at best, there's a list of emails, and volunteers get to cherry pick the ones they want to handle. The ones that don't get picked end up falling off the edge of the earth. Is that how it works?

And of course, carrying this out will cause all links to WR to be even more agressively removed, thus increasing readership much better than anything else could. Sad thing is, this will still work even though I just said what would happen.

Hmm... Hard to say. I mean, we've considered taking this step at various times in the past, and if anything, the majority of people here have supported it (i.e., exposing the Editors forum to searchbots). Those of us who have preferred to keep it unindexed may have been operating under the assumption that there was at least some appreciation among the WP'ers for our having it that way, but I think that's been proven now to not be the case. So it comes down to a simple question of whether we want to try and be "nice" or not, but at some point niceness has to be reciprocated - otherwise, you're just being taken advantage of.

Beyond that, the brutal truth about this is that we can keep this sort of BLP opt-out advocacy up indefinitely, and as we keep it up we're going to gain influence and readership, just as we have all along. They can keep it up indefinitely too, as long as they have people willing to put in the time and effort - but as they keep it up, they're going to look increasingly vindictive, hypocritical, and quite frankly, dangerous to civilized society. Whereas if they end this now, as they very easily could, the vast majority of people will continue to think of having a BLP article in Wikipedia as a status symbol, and nothing to worry about. And the donations will keep coming in, assuming they can keep the organizational blundering relatively under control...

Anyway, we've already proven (as if we needed to) that their irrational hyperbole about "thousands of articles deleted" and "floods of deletion demands" and all the other terrorist-under-the-bed rhetoric is just that, irrational hyperbole. So the only reason they're still doing this now is to be assholes - any other excuse on their part is simply a lie.

So.... what other aces-in-the-hole do we have? Restoring redacted names might be one, though they obviously don't care about that in the slightest. And it's pretty clear they don't like the individually-dedicated subforums (like this one). I suppose it's not out of the question that we could remove the direct links to them from the main page, though everyone seems to like them so far.

Maybe we could put some cute LOLcats and puppy-dog images on the main page, just to try to put them in a better mood?

I had to convince this attorney that as far as I know, there actually is a little office somewhere that's used by Cary Bass and Brion Vibber and (at the time) Carolyn Doran.
I think I'll ask Cade Metz (who interviewed me about SlimVirgin on November 28) for Godwin's telephone, and then call Godwin and ask him directly for 1) a fax number and 2) a street address where he personally is available to sign for registered mail.

Do that. Post it online for other people. Don't the have an office on 2nd street? or is that a po box?
And Mike Godwin is based in DC. (so he can lobby).

my impression is that at best, there's a list of emails, and volunteers get to cherry pick the ones they want to handle. The ones that don't get picked end up falling off the edge of the earth. Is that how it works?

I thought that this was the official technical procedure. Wasn't it?

It work. I gave him another address for the Foundation that I found, and I don't know if that worked. I also gave him an address for Jimbo's residence, and pointed out that Jimbo was on the Board, but he's always traveling and it might be hard to find him, even if that residence address was still accurate.

He has a pa, I thought.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Sun 16th December 2007, 8:17pm

CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
1200 S PINE ISLAND RD
PLANTATION FL 33324 US

You have to be kidding. That's almost as good as a P.O. box in the Cayman Islands...

More specifically, CT Corporation Systems is a contractor - they allow small firms and foundations to outsource their legal departments to a third-party registered agent, so that they don't have to maintain a permanent legal office.

http://ctadmin.ctadvantage.com/CTWebAdminA...ntServices.aspx

The fact that they're using them doesn't necessarily imply skullduggery, though - it may be this was a transitional step necessitated by their move to San Francisco, or just the fact that they're so spread-out in general (or specifically, with Mike Godwin being in the DC area). However, now that they're using them, it's very unlikely that they'll bring this stuff back in-house.

The exact words of that attorney were, "That's not an office address, it is a UPS drop box, these idiots seemingly work from home."

Look here, and compare and contrast the two street addresses:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us

http://www.yellowpages.com/info-LMS55702798/UPS-Store-The

Can you spell B-L-A-C-K H-O-L-E?

Any new non-profit or private company can hire a registered owner for 200-300 bucks. Not a big deal, nor a scam.


Mike Godwin's phone number (from is talk page) +1–202–236–3448 Email: mneumonic@well.com

Call him, email him, or he gave a speech at American University Center for Social Media last week. Maybe they knonw how to reach him. Center for Social Media | School of Communication | American University mailing: 4400 Massachusetts Avenue, NW | Washington, DC 20016-8080
office: 3201 New Mexico Avenue NW, Suite 395 | Washington, DC 20016-8080
socialmedia@american.edu | phone (202) 885-3107 | fax (202) 885-1309

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Sun 16th December 2007, 8:44pm

The exact words of that attorney were, "That's not an office address, it is a UPS drop box, these idiots seemingly work from home."

Look here, and compare and contrast the two street addresses:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us

http://www.yellowpages.com/info-LMS55702798/UPS-Store-The

Can you spell B-L-A-C-K H-O-L-E?

Well, that explains why Carolyn Doran was COO of WMF from January....but only moved to Florida in March....God only knows where her temp job took place...

This post has been edited by the fieryangel: Sun 16th December 2007, 8:42pm

The exact words of that attorney were, "That's not an office address, it is a UPS drop box, these idiots seemingly work from home."

Look here, and compare and contrast the two street addresses:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Contact_us

http://www.yellowpages.com/info-LMS55702798/UPS-Store-The

Can you spell B-L-A-C-K H-O-L-E?

That's their postal address. They do have an office (or so it would appear). They just don't post it, so as that no one shows up at their door (Daniel?) and screams at them. Or goes,, "postal".

Wikimedia Foundation

Postal address

Wikimedia Foundation Inc.
200 2nd Ave. South #358
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-4313
USA

Phone: +1-727-231-0101
Email: info@wikimedia.org
Fax: +1-727-258-0207

(note: we get a large number of calls; email or fax is always a better first option)



Here's a close but different address:

Jimmy Wales, Designated Agent:
[url=http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biografi_tokoh_yang_masih_hidup.html]Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
146 2nd St N, # 310:
St. Petersburg FL 33701:
United States: Fax: +1(727)258-0207[/url]

*blame the Indonesians for posting that online guys*

This could be it. I have heard their office is near their post box (rumors...)

Oh, Jimmy Wales, Designated Agent: Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 146 2nd St N, # 310: St. Petersburg FL 33701: United States: Facsimile number: +1(727)258-0207 ...Slovenia was clueless enough to post it too, lol.

Also it is on the ANI, as the Jimmy Wales Designated Agent address.

Whether that means "office" or "undisclosed locaction" or "hired help" I have no clue.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey: Sun 16th December 2007, 9:01pm

They do have an office (or so it would appear). They just don't post it, so as that no one shows up at their door (Daniel?) and screams at them. Or goes,, "postal".

I think you have that backwards. It's so that no one shows up at their door and gets shot by their COO with a .357 Magnum.

Any new non-profit or private company can hire a registered owner for 200-300 bucks. Not a big deal, nor a scam.

Exactly - it's all strictly legal and above-board. That's the whole point!

If your registered agent is in, say, Delaware (quite common - I believe Wikia's is there), and you're in California or Florida or DC, that really just adds an extra layer of liability protection to your organization, because any legal decision against you is going to have to go through a lot of extra inter-state bureaucracy before it results in any kind of forfeiture of assets. And you have to assume that the registered agent will be located in whatever state provides the most friendly venue for a liability case.

Anyone who wants to sue the Foundation isn't just presented with vague replies from them saying they should "contact individual WP editors" who are supposed to be the ones who are actually liable. They're also presented with problems of venue and jurisdiction, which could conceivably change right in the middle of their case preparations. It's just another deterrent against lawsuits, really. So... what do people have to do when they're being libelled, or just want potentially damaging material deleted?

They have to find out who the actual editors are in real life, don't they?

In effect, the Wikimedia Foundation encourages the identification, or what they call "stalking" and "outing," of its own anonymous volunteers. What's more, it always has, and it always will, by necessity. It's inherent to the whole system.

Whoever reads my OTRS will probably be afraid to verify to me that it was received. Does anyone have an address where Mike Godwin would get a registered letter?

I don't have that, but according to Florida Division of Corporations the registered agent for the Foundation is:

CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
1200 S PINE ISLAND RD
PLANTATION FL 33324 US

You have to be kidding. That's almost as good as a P.O. box in the Cayman Islands. I had an attorney from Florida contact me several months ago. He was frustrated because he was trying to serve process on Wikimedia Foundation. He used one address he found, and that didn't work. I gave him another address for the Foundation that I found, and I don't know if that worked. I also gave him an address for Jimbo's residence, and pointed out that Jimbo was on the Board, but he's always traveling and it might be hard to find him, even if that residence address was still accurate.

I had to convince this attorney that as far as I know, there actually is a little office somewhere that's used by Cary Bass and Brion Vibber and (at the time) Carolyn Doran.

I think I'll ask Cade Metz (who interviewed me about SlimVirgin on November 28) for Godwin's telephone, and then call Godwin and ask him directly for 1) a fax number and 2) a street address where he personally is available to sign for registered mail.

About OTRS, I still haven't heard anything from them. How does that thing work? Since I've never seen it work, my impression is that at best, there's a list of emails, and volunteers get to cherry pick the ones they want to handle. The ones that don't get picked end up falling off the edge of the earth. Is that how it works?

USPS certified return receipt requested to the registered agent is sufficient for service Fla.R.Civ.P. 1.070(i)(2)(a) page 18 of the pdf document. If they won't sign for it that will be sufficient cause for a trial court to grant substitute service (usually ordinary mail and posting at the courthouse.) If they then default, good. Yeah, its a pretty mickey mouse way of conducting business.

They do have an office (or so it would appear). They just don't post it, so as that no one shows up at their door (Daniel?) and screams at them. Or goes,, "postal".

I think you have that backwards. It's so that no one shows up at their door and gets shot by their COO with a .357 Magnum.

This is the Whois entry. That would be a good starting place.

That or find were the servers for wikipeida are located and serve that
service center.

Tech Organization:Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
Tech Street1:200 2nd Avenue S. #358
Tech Street2:
inTech Street3:
Tech City:Saint Petersburg
Tech State/Province:Florida
Tech Postal Code:33701-4313
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.17272310101
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:+1.17172580207
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:dns-admin@wikimedia.org

or some tradecraft....

send the summons to this address

Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
P.O. Box 919227
Orlando, FL 32891-9227
United States

inside an envelope
marked "payment enclosed"

just a thought.

This post has been edited by Joseph100: Sun 16th December 2007, 9:12pm