Jayjg returns?, as User:Historicist Options

[gomi]

After only a few months on Wikipedia, Historicist (T-C-L-K-R-D) has amassed over 300 common articles with the departed Jayjg (T-C-L-K-R-D) . Coincidence or conspiracy?

[MBisanz]

Unless his sleeping and editing patterns have changed by a considerable amount, I don't see the connection.

[Kato]

Historicist makes a number of sarcastic comments against SlimVirgin in this discussion:

I was responding to User:SlimVirgin's unsubstantiated assertion that if the soldiers f other nations printed up derogatory T-shirts there would be an uproar, buy pointing out that soldiers form other nations actually rape innocent young girls without arousing an uproar of inspiring User:SlimVirgin to write wikipedia pages about actual incidents of rape by uniformed soldiers.Historicist (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't sound like Jayjg. Not least because the spelling is atrocious.

[Obesity]

Historicist makes a number of sarcastic comments against SlimVirgin in this discussion:

I was responding to User:SlimVirgin's unsubstantiated assertion that if the soldiers f other nations printed up derogatory T-shirts there would be an uproar, buy pointing out that soldiers form other nations actually rape innocent young girls without arousing an uproar of inspiring User:SlimVirgin to write wikipedia pages about actual incidents of rape by uniformed soldiers.Historicist (talk) 18:53, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't sound like Jayjg. Not least because the spelling is atrocious.

I dunno, the subject overlap with Jayjg fits him to a tee. And Jayjg could be on the outs with slim, since she has now softened her pro-Israel stance, compared to his.

The typos could be an affectation or just mistakes... his POV is identical to that of Jayjg.

[Heat]

Spelling mistakes could be a deliberate attempt not to look like Jayjg.

[Kato]

After only a few months on Wikipedia

Also, this Historicist guy has actually been active for the best part of 9 months. This is quite a long time on WP, and it is quite easy to amass similar editing patterns to other people, by probability. This has been shown before on WR, when various Wikipedios here (I don't remember who) showed they had numerous articles in common with random editors they had no contact with.

Here, Jayjg himself seems to remonstrate with Historicist, and makes a few polite comments to him here, and here. These seem plausible enough.

So far, very little really points to Jayjg as controlling the two accounts.

[thekohser]

Spelling mistakes could be a deliberate attempt not to look like Jayjg.

I've done that before, to try to not look like myself.

[dogbiscuit]

Spelling mistakes could be a deliberate attempt not to look like Jayjg.

I've done that before, to try to not look like myself.

WARNING! WARNING! Unripened sock alert!

[The Adversary]

There are several "new" Jayjg -wannabes abound. Besides Historicist (T-C-L-K-R-D) , we have Wikifan12345 (T-C-L-K-R-D) ...both users seems to have "been around the block", if you see what I mean.

However, I don´t get the "smell" of Jayjg from either one. And I wonder if Historicist is not female? (Btw, Wikifan12345 was reported at AN/I here ; SV seems to think he/she is banned user Dajudem/Tundrabuggy, but the edit-times don´t really fit, unless s/he moved.)

The thing is: there are so many organizations/groups out there actively recruiting, (sometimes for payment) editors with a pro-Israeli view. Does anyone think CAMERA has given up? I don´t. And then you have JIDF.. And besides these more secular organizations , you have religious ones. Over at WR:Judaism it is quite openly discussed that Chabad are "hiring wikipedia editors and admins". (Jayjg´s edits coincided very much with Chabad views, AFAIK (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) )

So that some new accounts look/ edit like older accounts might simply be because they are comming from the same place, so to speak (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/bored.gif)

What these editors all have in common is very limited knowledge. And, these POV-pushers irritate hell out of more knowledgeable editors. I have seen it again and again and again...these extremely pro-Israeli editors always end up turning people ...more anti-Israeli (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

[Cla68]

What these editors all have in common is very limited knowledge. And, these POV-pushers irritate hell out of more knowledgeable editors. I have seen it again and again and again...these extremely pro-Israeli editors always end up turning people ...more anti-Israeli (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/dry.gif)

That's what these POV-pushers don't seem to understand and which Jossi, Jayjg, SV, and several others apparently belatedly realized, I assume to their chagrin, which is that POV-pushing will eventually attract enough negative attention to the articles that they're trying to control to ruin what they've spent so many hours trying to accomplish.

[Tarc]

Wikifan12345 showed up about a week after the CAMERA case closed, and started right in on some of the most contentious I-P articles (Israeli apartheid and al-Durrah) and within a day was in on DRVs and AfDs. He gets quite pissy when this sort of thing is brought up, and rather than answering directly, goes on the "go file a sock case if you think so!" defense.

I initially thought it was Zeq, but the impeccable spelling and grammar makes that highly improbable. Some have mentioned affectations above, but it is far easier to pretend stupid than to pretend smart.

[Nerd]

Like Elvis, there will always be "Jayjg sightings" but that are never quite substantiated with hard evidence. He's smart, and I'm sure he wouldn't be so blatant in his editing habits to let everyone know what sock he's editing with (if he even is editing).

[Milton Roe]

That's what these POV-pushers don't seem to understand and which Jossi, Jayjg, SV, and several others apparently belatedly realized, I assume to their chagrin, which is that POV-pushing will eventually attract enough negative attention to the articles that they're trying to control to ruin what they've spent so many hours trying to accomplish.

Ah, Cla, you srsly overestimate the importance of pragmatism in the lives of idealism-driven fighters. These people don't really care whether their efforts make the goal less likely, even if you could PROVE it to them. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif) Why? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) Because it's the struggle itself that addicts them, rather than the outcome. They love the drama of it, the caramaderie of it, the being counted as on the side of the angels. This is one reason why you see so much of this in the religious community. These folks figure it will all be reset in the end by God Almighty, and the criterion then will be less what you actually got done, than what side you were on. Thus, you're free to do things you know very well aren't helping, in the short term.

I first realized this in the issue of teen pregancy, when it soon became apparent statistically from Europe that the way to decrease it the most was to teach contraception. Then we found out that the people who are against teen pregancy are willing to allow MORE teen pregnancy rather than to give up their single real goal, which is to be on the side of those who support the Great Fight Against Unauthorized Fucking. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Legalized prostitution? Same problem, more or less, though the stakes are even higher. Illegal prostitution results in a far more dangeous world for the women who practice it. But danger to women was not really what the opponents were interested in. They were interested in a world where what you trade sex for, is way more complicated. And damn the people who want a simple transaction: let them be murdered, if that's what it takes. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

The American drug war is a similar thing. In this country we have 4 times more people in jail per capita than Europe and more than any place else in the Western world (nobody really has these figures for China but we may beat even them). And it 's not working. It's gotten to the point were we let people with long histories of violent crime out on the street (like this recent Carolina random killer) so we have space left to keep drug convicts locked up for their mandatory federal time, which can be decades.

The penalties for being caught using or dealing drugs are to interrupt a young person's education, remove them from their legitimate job if they have one, and give them a criminal record so they are henceforth unemployable in any kind of reasonably satisfactory job, ever again. So guess what they then turn to, instead? We've now created a permanent underclass which gets worse the harder we "punish" it. Can we get out of this hole by realizing that the cure is worse than the disease? No! I once thought it was just a matter of explaining to those who want to see less life-destroying drug use, that they were destroying more lives by how they were "treating" the problem. Didn't matter. Turned out lives-destroyed weren't what they were interested in, but being on the side of the angels. Same problem. Destroy em all and let god sort it out.

Milton The Village Atheist Humanist
Who thinks we need to try to get it right the first time, in the one life we know we have...

[LessHorrid vanU]

That's what these POV-pushers don't seem to understand and which Jossi, Jayjg, SV, and several others apparently belatedly realized, I assume to their chagrin, which is that POV-pushing will eventually attract enough negative attention to the articles that they're trying to control to ruin what they've spent so many hours trying to accomplish.

Ah, Cla, you srsly overestimate the importance of pragmatism in the lives of idealism-driven fighters. These people don't really care whether their efforts make the goal less likely, even if you could PROVE it to them. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ohmy.gif) Why? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) Because it's the struggle itself that addicts them, rather than the outcome. They love the drama of it, the caramaderie of it, the being counted as on the side of the angels. This is one reason why you see so much of this in the religious community. These folks figure it will all be reset in the end by God Almighty, and the criterion then will be less what you actually got done, than what side you were on. Thus, you're free to do things you know very well aren't helping, in the short term.

I first realized this in the issue of teen pregancy, when it soon became apparent statistically from Europe that the way to decrease it the most was to teach contraception. Then we found out that the people who are against teen pregancy are willing to allow MORE teen pregnancy rather than to give up their single real goal, which is to be on the side of those who support the Great Fight Against Unauthorized Fucking. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Legalized prostitution? Same problem, more or less, though the stakes are even higher. Illegal prostitution results in a far more dangeous world for the women who practice it. But danger to women was not really what the opponents were interested in. They were interested in a world where what you trade sex for, is way more complicated. And damn the people who want a simple transaction: let them be murdered, if that's what it takes. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unhappy.gif)

The American drug war is a similar thing. In this country we have 4 times more people in jail per capita than Europe and more than any place else in the Western world (nobody really has these figures for China but we may beat even them). And it 's not working. It's gotten to the point were we let people with long histories of violent crime out on the street (like this recent Carolina random killer) so we have space left to keep drug convicts locked up for their mandatory federal time, which can be decades.

The penalties for being caught using or dealing drugs are to interrupt a young person's education, remove them from their legitimate job if they have one, and give them a criminal record so they are henceforth unemployable in any kind of reasonably satisfactory job, ever again. So guess what they then turn to, instead? We've now created a permanent underclass which gets worse the harder we "punish" it. Can we get out of this hole by realizing that the cure is worse than the disease? No! I once thought it was just a matter of explaining to those who want to see less life-destroying drug use, that they were destroying more lives by how they were "treating" the problem. Didn't matter. Turned out lives-destroyed weren't what they were interested in, but being on the side of the angels. Same problem. Destroy em all and let god sort it out.

Milton The Village Atheist Humanist
Who thinks we need to try to get it right the first time, in the one life we know we have...

Sound! (as I believe the "hep young things" of my nation would say to signify impressed agreement).

[The Adversary]

If you needed proof that Historicist is not Jayjg: s/he has just been caught socking in a very silly, straight-forward manner: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Historicist/Archive.

Now, our Jayjg would never have been caught in such a silly way (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

Ehh (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif) ....unless this was a very advanced version of "let-me-play-extremely-stupid-so-nobody-thinks-it-is-me" (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/huh.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Eh, nope. I dont think so: Historicist was first indef.blocked for his/her stunt, (later reduced to two weeks.). There is a limit to "brinkmanship".

And then I went and watched the real thing, and found, oh-oh...he´s....he´s b-b-b-back!

[Cla68]

And then I went and watched the real thing, and found, oh-oh...he´s....he´s b-b-b-back!

Perhaps he might help me out with an Israeli-related article I'm about to start expanding. I've been reading that book by Alon Tal mentioned in the references section and I'm planning on starting a number of articles about the environmental history of Israel, which appears to have been neglected in Wikipedia so far.

This post has been edited by Cla68:

[EricBarbour]

Perhaps he might help me out with an Israeli-related article I'm about to start expanding.

Not recommended. You will have problems with Jay.

[Cock-up-over-conspiracy]

We've now created a permanent underclass which gets worse the harder we "punish" it. Can we get out of this hole by realizing that the cure is worse than the disease? No! I once thought it was just a matter of explaining ... turned out lives-destroyed weren't what they were interested in, but being on the side of the angels.

OK, this is loose ... something I do not understand and do not know the correct terminology.

But, add to what you say, there is a "repressive-suppressive" type of mentality in which if the individuals do not actually enjoy setting individuals up, are skilled and habituated into doing so to achieve their ends.

Giving the example as you did, at the grunt level at least, police and thieves come from the same social background and are involved in the same industry. There are a lot of positions - and agendas - in society dependent on there being lots of crime. Profitable positions, both paid and unpaid, which would not exist if "crime" did not ... and so it is in their interest for it too exist. Lots of it ... the more the better ... I am thinking of how the Intelligence communities and the repressives collude to creates enemies into to justify their budgets and power over others.

Am I the only one to think that there are a lot of sneaks, snitches and 'class monitor' types - the same repressives - on the Pee-dia that just would not be needed if proper management was in place ... and who resist such changes, sub-consciously at least, on the basis that they would render them impotent?

Again, the abuses of power creating and inciting the same type of "underclass" and revolutionaries.

This post has been edited by Cock-up-over-conspiracy:

[The Joy]

And then I went and watched the real thing, and found, oh-oh...he´s....he´s b-b-b-back!

(IMG:http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n1/danetuttle/kane_command_conquer.jpg)

It would be a sad error in judgment... to mistake me for a corpse.

[gomi]

If you needed proof that Historicist is not Jayjg: s/he has just been caught socking in a very silly, straight-forward manner: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Historicist/Archive.

Now, our Jayjg would never have been caught in such a silly way (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

And then I went and watched the real thing, and found, oh-oh...he´s....he´s b-b-b-back!

And isn't it amazing that Jayjg returned exactly 33 minutes after Historicist was blocked? And he shares 370 pages in common with Jayjg. Lesser Wikipedians have been banned for such coincidences.