Outrageous, ArbCom puts field hand Giano in his place Options

My earlier comment,

“Against this backdrop, the predictable refrain "let's get back to editing" translates as a command for proles to leave the palatial grounds of the noticeboards and get back to work while administrators call the shots.”

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...indpost&p=62131

proves uncannily prescient, as the Arbitration Committee considers this finding:

“For a period of one year, Giano may not participate in any of the pages of the "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk" namespaces, except for civil discussion related to featured articles.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174409847

My earlier comment,

“Against this backdrop, the predictable refrain "let's get back to editing" translates as a command for proles to leave the palatial grounds of the noticeboards and get back to work while administrators call the shots.”

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&sh...indpost&p=62131

proves uncannily prescient, as the Arbitration Committee considers this finding:

“For a period of one year, Giano may not participate in any of the pages of the "Wikipedia:" or "Wikipedia talk" namespaces, except for civil discussion related to featured articles.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174409847

I guess that would preclude his serving on ArbCom.

Apparently Giano has been engaged in wimpy disruption. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) I still think this whole thing might have been a scam to rule Giano out of the Arbcom.

Apparently Giano has been engaged in wimpy disruption. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) I still think this whole thing might have been a scam to rule Giano out of the Arbcom.

Since Jimbo has final say, he was already out, no?

This is just a slap in the face, to put him in his place for insulting said God-king.

Apparently Giano has been engaged in wimpy disruption. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) I still think this whole thing might have been a scam to rule Giano out of the Arbcom.

So far it is only a proposed remedy and no ArbCom member has adopted it. But I think Fred will support it. I don't know who else might.

They have a good excuse:

“We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174494695

Other Wikipedians have proven fully capable of dispensing both truth and justice - the one they're condemning here comes to mind - so why not get out of the way and let them give it a shot? This disclaimer is pathetic.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

They have a good excuse:

“We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174494695

Other Wikipedians have proven fully capable of dispensing both truth and justice - the one they're condemning here comes to mind - so why not get out of the way and let them give it a shot? This disclaimer is pathetic.

Isn't "protecting the encyclopedia" without respect to "truth or justice" exactly what Durova did?

THEN WHAT ARE YOU CAPABLE OF, SIR?[/b]
Regardless, this action delayed and complicated any action the committee might have taken by taking a straight-forward case of administrator misconduct and transforming it into some of a power-struggle; the comments made by many over the last few days leave no doubt that many editors see the matter in those terms. This did not have to happen; this is not the first time this has happened. This committee is empowered to resolve disputes according to the policies by which this project is governed. We are not a political institution. We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice. We exist to protect the encyclopedia and maintain the conditions necessary for collaborative editing. If it is necessary to flout our core policies to keep this committee "honest" then all is lost and I cannot endorse such a position.

Well, in a nutshell, since Durova got the big whopper, and since !! is a saint, then Giano had to pay. It an't all run against favor of the ruling party.

let's parse here.

taking a straight-forward case of administrator misconduct and transforming it into some of a power-struggle;

No, sorry. The problem was that the behavior, and its having been condoned, is part of a systematic problem, and your consistent refusal to deal with that is what you now call a power struggle. It is you sir, with the power, who are making the struggle. And that struggle is with reality, and truth (which you admit you can't deal well with, nor honesty - wow, WHAT a Freudian slip, God almighty)

This committee is empowered to resolve disputes according to the policies by which this project is governed.

Look Mackensen-Hancock-Jefferson-speechmaker. No one asked you to rewrite the Magna Carta. You simply have to reference the rules (not even follow them according to Ignore all rules), and try to be fair. That is part and parcel of protecting the encyclopedic environment, but you go on to say...

We are not a political institution. We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice. We exist to protect the encyclopedia and maintain the conditions necessary for collaborative editing.

Are only political institutions required to be fair, transparent, and not lie? To not exact cruelty? Because when I was in a scout troop, it wasn't a political institution, and there were rules, but no one performed gross acts of injustice and then whined that they weren't a political institution, as if this would have excused gross unfairness, which it does not. Neither did it excuse the Catholic Church from condoning gross acts of injustice, and the Catholic Church is also not a political institution. And by the way WHAT have you been smoking, Sir Platitudes??

We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice. We exist to protect the encyclopedia and maintain the conditions necessary for collaborative editing.

Dear Mr. Fallacious Logic: Do you contend that these two sentences are mutually exclusive? Because that is how this reads. Explain pls thx.

If it is necessary to flout our core policies to keep this committee "honest" then all is lost and I cannot endorse such a position.

You are making NO sense, Mr. Mackensen. What core policies have you flouted to keep your committee honest? I though that the issue here was that in being DISHONEST, you had flouted the committee (and the community's) policies. That's the point isn't it? And you are on that list, Mr. Mackensen, the secret list which made all those backdoor decisions, aren't you Mr. Mackensen. So is this why Mr. Mackensen, you are spouting out sentences which back to back make no logical sense whatsoever?

What core policy allows you to perform judgements without due process? I know you are arguing against transparency, Mr. Mackensen, but what you are really doing is claiming that the core policy of the committee is secrecy, collusion, backhandedness, cronyism and corruption.[/b] And since you are being asked to stop performing these, you feel that "all is lost"

MR MACKENSEN. ALL THAT IS LOST IS YOUR FACE. RESIGN ARBCOM, and GIVE IT BACK SOME DIGNITY.

Other people can manage truth and honesty just fine, if you feel overly challenged and not up to the task.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Proposed sanction now stands at 3/1/1 with Fred, jpgordon and Mackensen supporting. Paul August opposes. UnivitedCompany abstains. Who else is going to vote for political repression?

Proposed sanction now stands at 3/1/1 with Fred, jpgordon and Mackensen supporting. Paul August opposes. UnivitedCompany abstains. Who else is going to vote for political repression?

Jpgordon just did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174499520

Unsurprising, as Jpgordon is himself a participant in the mailing list, to whom Durova's secret evidence aggainst User:!! was circulated.

Proposed sanction now stands at 3/1/1 with Fred, jpgordon and Mackensen supporting. Paul August opposes. UnivitedCompany abstains. Who else is going to vote for political repression?

Well, duh. Jpgordon and Mackensen are on the CORRUPT list. (oops i meant the sekrit list)

And Fred? Well, let's not go there.

Of course Mackensen+jpgordon want to punish Giano. Someone on the other side has to go down, if Durova did.

So says the corrupt Arbcom Committee that Durova so steadfastly trusted to protect her in any situation..

.. but could not under strong public scrutiny.

Ergo Giano must PAY.

3/2/1 with Kirill now opposing.

3/3/1
FloNight Opposes.

Sadly, Giano is likely to receive some penalty. The ArbCom is split on the degree of the penalty, but all of them seem to agree that he needs a penalty of some kind, except for Paul August, who, bless his soul, appears firmly opposed to all of it.

Surely just remaining on Wikipedia is penalty enough? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

Surely just remaining on Wikipedia is penalty enough? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

No, it's a privilege to contribute featured articles for Wikipedia. That's why Uninvited Company linked to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174534752

Being an administrator is more like a burden. Serving on Arbitration Committee is noblesse oblige. Not a privilege at all. No "vested contributors" here. These are the slaves to virtue who make the joys of mainspace possible.

Apparently Giano has been engaged in wimpy disruption. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) I still think this whole thing might have been a scam to rule Giano out of the Arbcom.

at least Fred didn't suggest redirecting User:Giano_II to wimp. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/rolleyes.gif)

not yet anyway..

?Ç£We are not capable of dispensing truth or justice."

PL - can you knock up an article on Mackensen on Wikiquote?

Well, duh. Jpgordon and Mackensen are on the CORRUPT list. (oops i meant the sekrit list)

We shouldn't insult Mackensen; he is an editor here in good standing. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/happy.gif)

This will be controversial, but I actually like Mackensen. He is one of the more accessible arbs, and he always has some solid reasoning behind his arbitrator actions even if I disagree with the conclusions drawn.

Has anyone seen this "remedy"???

Remedy suspended

2.1) Any remedy which restricts Giano from the Wikipedia namespace shall be suspended until the conclusion of the ArbCom elections, and will be lifted should Giano be appointed to the Committee.

For the moment, this is 4/0/0/0, but....I'm just speechless. If he wins the election, then he gets off? If he doesn't, then he's punished?

Do they think at all? How can they not see the implications in this? This is just too much.

Okay, that's it! I'm changing my vote!

GIANO for ARBCOM!!!

This post has been edited by the fieryangel:

Apparently Giano has been engaged in wimpy disruption. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif) I still think this whole thing might have been a scam to rule Giano out of the Arbcom.

Since Jimbo has final say, he was already out, no?

This is just a slap in the face, to put him in his place for insulting said God-king.

Well, if all this Durovadrama hadn't happened Giano wouldn't have been seen as a person involved in a current dispute so it would be harder for Jimbo Wimbo to reject him.

Giano has declared that he will refuse any sanction from ArbCom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174577972

Who will blink first? NOT GIANO. I guarantee it. Will ArbCom ban Wikipedia's crown jewel in order to win the point?

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

Mackensen is one of the nicest arbitrators, most of the time.
Sure, we've had our share of disagreements, and this is one,
but I would interpret that more has him feeling unqualified to
deal with the situation than being anti truth/justice.

(Then again, I actually am anti-justice, but that is becuase to
me, justice means revenge.)

I have a sad feeling that Giano getting forced into this as a party was an attempt to discredit him to keep him off of the ArbCom itself.

I have a sad feeling that Giano getting forced into this as a party was an attempt to discredit him to keep him off of the ArbCom itself.

Of course it is, they are the establishment that hate Giano for "truth telling".

It's interesting that Giano seems to be good friends with MONGO... so this fighting involving him is splitting the "clique".

Has anyone seen this "remedy"???

Remedy suspended

2.1) Any remedy which restricts Giano from the Wikipedia namespace shall be suspended until the conclusion of the ArbCom elections, and will be lifted should Giano be appointed to the Committee.

For the moment, this is 4/0/0/0, but....I'm just speechless. If he wins the election, then he gets off? If he doesn't, then he's punished?

Do they think at all? How can they not see the implications in this? This is just too much.

Okay, that's it! I'm changing my vote!

GIANO for ARBCOM!!!

This is interesting. It would permit Users to use the ArbCom election as a means of overriding an unfair punishment by ArbCom, even if they don't care a rat's ass if Giano is on ArbCom or not. Of course if it is to have any chance of success the voter must characterize their support as Giano being "A wise and prudent arbitrator" and not indicate their real motives for the vote. Then Mr. Wales will have to decide how he wants to play his hand. This does seem to have great potential to strike a serious blow to ArbCom, WP's dysfunctional social networking community and it's failing God-King.

I Vote Giano: I don't give a rat's ass about ArbCom (Shhh...no telling now.)

Surely just remaining on Wikipedia is penalty enough? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

No, it's a privilege to contribute featured articles for Wikipedia. That's why Uninvited Company linked to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...oldid=174534752

Being an administrator is more like a burden. Serving on Arbitration Committee is noblesse oblige. Not a privilege at all. No "vested contributors" here. These are the slaves to virtue who make the joys of mainspace possible.

Wow, I'm glad I got that benefit of the doubt when I was getting raked over the coals.

It's interesting that Giano seems to be good friends with MONGO... so this fighting involving him is splitting the "clique".

MONGO actually wrote some fairly decent articles about US national parks and such, back in the day, or maybe he helped Giano out in some sort of dispute once in the distant past.... That would have been before he (MONGO) became obsessed with 9/11 conspiracy nuts and the Faceless Hordes of Invading Trolls From Hell™, or however he tends to view those who disagree with him on WP...

Anyway, Dan, I think it's high time you dropped this silly pretense and started using the word "cabal" like everybody else. You know you want to! (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/tongue.gif)

This is interesting. It would permit Users to use the ArbCom election as a means of overriding an unfair punishment by ArbCom, even if they don't care a rat's ass if Giano is on ArbCom or not. Of course if it is to have any chance of success the voter must characterize their support as Giano being "A wise and prudent arbitrator" and not indicate their real motives for the vote. Then Mr. Wales will have to decide how he wants to play his hand. This does seem to have great potential to strike a serious blow to ArbCom, WP's dysfunctional social networking community and it's failing God-King.

I don't think it'd strike any serious blow to ArbCom that hasn't already been struck. If the ArbCom makes a decision which the community overwhelmingly disagrees with, that's what's going to hurt the ArbCom. Anything else is unimportant in comparison.

In any case, I don't see Wikipedia being sufficiently reformed from within. ArbCom is not just corrupt, the whole concept of it is fundamentally unsound. The most beneficial place for Giano at this point would be working on another project.

Am I wrong in reading this comment that basically what Jimbo Wales, the ArbCom, and clerks like Thatcher131 are really upset about is the fact that Giano has successfully demonstrated that a lone user can render their entire power structure irrelevant by disclosing information that drives the community?

Giano believes he did the right thing for the right reasons in publishing a private email and then republishing it after Cary removed it. He has also posted logs from the admins IRC channel when he believes they contained discussion that was inappropriate and brought discredit on the people involved in the discussion. Why is it an assumption of bad faith to wonder what Giano will do if he finds something similar in the Arbcom-L archives? [[User talk:Thatcher131|Thatcher131]] 15:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is sadly apparent that certain people are now doing everything in their power to discredit Giano to keep him off of ArbCom. Did you notice that on the same note a motion to sanction Mercury was removed from the workshop as trolling? Protect the cabal indeed.

This post has been edited by Fox:

More trolling from Thatcher131.

This is interesting. It would permit Users to use the ArbCom election as a means of overriding an unfair punishment by ArbCom, even if they don't care a rat's ass if Giano is on ArbCom or not. Of course if it is to have any chance of success the voter must characterize their support as Giano being "A wise and prudent arbitrator" and not indicate their real motives for the vote. Then Mr. Wales will have to decide how he wants to play his hand. This does seem to have great potential to strike a serious blow to ArbCom, WP's dysfunctional social networking community and it's failing God-King.

I don't think it'd strike any serious blow to ArbCom that hasn't already been struck. If the ArbCom makes a decision which the community overwhelmingly disagrees with, that's what's going to hurt the ArbCom. Anything else is unimportant in comparison.

In any case, I don't see Wikipedia being sufficiently reformed from within. ArbCom is not just corrupt, the whole concept of it is fundamentally unsound. The most beneficial place for Giano at this point would be working on another project.

The reason that this would amount to a serious blow to AbCom, the cabal and the God-King is that it undermines their confidence that their own processes are in their own control or are even about the matters they intend for them to be about at all.

This isn't about Giano. Let them chase shadows. This is asymmetrical conflict on a meta level.

Let's remember that Jimbo ultimately determines who is elevated to the ArbCom. Even if Giano gets a clear majority, he will not become an arbitrator. Not if Jimbo has anything to say about it!

As of now, it looks like they aren't going to put any restrictions on Giano (Mackeson changed his vote).

The only measure regarding him that's passing at this point is a reminder.

This post has been edited by Sxeptomaniac:

As of now, it looks like they aren't going to put any restrictions on Giano (Mackeson changed his vote).

The only measure regarding him that's passing at this point is a reminder.

If that happens it would be what is called in baseball "a forced walk."

I have a sad feeling that Giano getting forced into this as a party was an attempt to discredit him to keep him off of the ArbCom itself.

That's actually not necessary. Even were he voted in, votes dont decide.

Who put him up for this? I thought it was "the guy with the funny name, starts with O", but I think it was Fred Bauder.

Fred Bauder is being very old ladyish about this case. He's more of the mood to see Giano caned.

It is sadly apparent that certain people are now doing everything in their power to discredit Giano to keep him off of ArbCom. Did you notice that on the same note a motion to sanction Mercury was removed from the workshop as trolling? Protect the cabal indeed.

Well, that was a given when he started being so outspoken about !! (and probably before, as he seems to have raised hackles). And if he has that strong of a personality, he probably cares more about the issue/moment, more than making nice with the powers that be. Which means in the current framework, he'd not fit in. Logical.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I have a sad feeling that Giano getting forced into this as a party was an attempt to discredit him to keep him off of the ArbCom itself.

That's actually not necessary. Even were he voted in, votes dont decide.

If Mr. Wales uses fiat , not popular vote, to select any ArbCom members he will suffer a significant loss of credibility. If we can help to maneuver him into this position, we should.

If Mr. Wales uses fiat , not popular vote, to select any ArbCom members he will suffer a significant loss of credibility. If we can help to maneuver him into this position, we should.

... because that's stopped him before...

If Mr. Wales uses fiat , not popular vote, to select any ArbCom members he will suffer a significant loss of credibility. If we can help to maneuver him into this position, we should.

... because that's stopped him before...

He is weaker now.

People continue to speak out against arbitrators being stupid.

I'm surprised at this. Usually the people to speak out against arbitrators are those with clear ulterior motives or people who just like complaining. Editors are getting bolder, and that's not good for the cabal.

Do you honestly expect anything better from weepy, paranoid FloNight? I was surprised to see her oppose, much less comment on her opposition. I wonder what specific diffs changed her mind though?

Wait wait. Didn't FloNight just reject the MONGO case a week or so ago? Why is it not important for us peons to see that Arbcom sanctions incivility there?

Yeah, she didn't bother recusing despite being involved in WT:NPA. She's one arbitrator (the only, IMO) that's totally in MONGO's pocket.

Do you honestly expect anything better from weepy, paranoid FloNight? I was surprised to see her oppose, much less comment on her opposition. I wonder what specific diffs changed her mind though?

Maybe she was afraid that someone would finally point out that she was on the 2nd Sooper Sekrit list. No one seems to be mentioning it much. It seems that she is trying to be very, very careful here. so as to distance herself from what Durova did, now.

In the shameless corner, we have JPgordon (on the first list) and Matthew Brown (on the 2nd list) who are blatantly attacking Giano.

And of course Grandma Fred Bauder, whining that hanging restricting isn't good enough for Giano. Given his own history, you think he's be a bit more broad minded, but apparently, loyalty, not impartial justice, is his strong suit.

Which goes to show that he was right to out the information, and were it not out, this would be a closed case, and Durova wouldntve even got a slap on the hand.

People continue to speak out against arbitrators being stupid.

I'm surprised at this. Usually the people to speak out against arbitrators are those with clear ulterior motives or people who just like complaining. Editors are getting bolder, and that's not good for the cabal.

Not me. No good can come of that kind of thing. I no longer speak out against arbitrators being stupid. I now merely speak out that arbitrators are stupid.

I'd feel bad if Giano got screwed, but now that I'm banned if I had a choice in Wikipedia's fate it would be for it to collapse under a sea of drama. Maybe this is for the best.

I'd feel bad if Giano got screwed, but now that I'm banned if I had a choice in Wikipedia's fate it would be for it to collapse under a sea of drama. Maybe this is for the best.

Except by now it's the status quo for Arbcom to rule for those who have wikipolitical power. Not enough people like Giano for this to be anything else but the next example.

Eh, it's not like they're completely unwilling to make unpopular decisions. They did desysop MONGO after all. Some of them quite enthusiastically.

EDIT: THey also didn't swallow JzG's BS about "banned users" forcing Durova to be an idiot.

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

Not me. No good can come of that kind of thing. I no longer speak out against arbitrators being stupid. I now merely speak out that arbitrators are stupid.

Stupid isn't the point; none of them are classically stupid, or even ignorant. Biased? yes. Bipartisan? No. Thus Arbcom has been a failure for quite a long time. This is why Durova was using it as a easy way to get off of discussion almost anything. She could say "take it to Arbcom" and it woudl be either ignored, or ruled in her favor. Easy.

I'd feel bad if Giano got screwed, but now that I'm banned if I had a choice in Wikipedia's fate it would be for it to collapse under a sea of drama. Maybe this is for the best.

Sounds good to me. I think that's where it's headed anyway...

This post has been edited by CaptainMidnight:

Eh, it's not like they're completely unwilling to make unpopular decisions. They did desysop MONGO after all. Some of them quite enthusiastically.

This became a case only because of !!'s friends like Giano and Bishonen, who make a huge outcry about how !! was banned, but also how the post-banning reaction went. It is a joke that Arbcom claims that this would be a case without Giano. No way. Giano, Bishonen, and Physichem62 (now JeHochman's new mentor) pushed this until it became a case. But the fire came from Giano (also Bishonen).

EDIT: THey also didn't swallow JzG's BS about "banned users" forcing Durova to be an idiot.

Like I said, they aren't stupid. Just biased. Fred Bauder (teetering on the stupid with him) claims that Durova made one small error and Giano is the anti-christ (paraphrased).

I'd feel bad if Giano got screwed, but now that I'm banned if I had a choice in Wikipedia's fate it would be for it to collapse under a sea of drama. Maybe this is for the best.

Sounds good to me.

Yes, it is lose-lose. If he is punished, that is terrible. If he gets out of being punished (which is insane that those words even need be spoken - "if he escapes punishment for having outed corrupt behavior", then it will look like he said a few days ago. "The system works".

Remember, he did say that. He said "the system works". I guess he knows differently now.

But even if this does cause a huge rippled in the WP consciousness, things won't change much after this. Unfortunately.

Giano's going to become the Juan Peron of WP. They try to silence him but the descamisadoes of minor editors and wiki-gnomes will raise him to the level of a messiah!

A new Wikipedia...!

My goodness... the lyrics... they speak what is happening!

(I wanted to write some parody lyrics, but I fear Madonna's lawyers!)

That's not the best simile to bring forth: a corrupt administration that helped drive the wealthy nation into bankruptcy, including a period of hard dictatorial rules following said leader.

On the other hand, it would be fun to see Wikipedia have the President-every-20-minutes debacle that Argentina had about 10 years ago. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

And who would be Evita? Bishonen? Durova? Slimvirgin? Flonight?

Well, I'll admit that Giano has more scruples than Juan Peron. Giano I think has the best of WP in his interest.

Yes, Bishonen was my idea of Evita, but only because of her strength and determination. Ethically, she's well above Evita.

But, you know, if Giano starts agreeing with the Cabal in any way, he'll be accused of "selling out" the people and then we'll have to wait for another savior and so on and so on.

Giano is the "People's Arbitrator" but he could quickly become the "People's Arbitraitor."

Giano is the "People's Arbitrator" but he could quickly become the "People's Arbitraitor."

I don't think so. He's never promised anything other than being true to himself.

Well, I'll admit that Giano has more scruples than Juan Peron. Giano I think has the best of WP in his interest.

Yes, Bishonen was my idea of Evita, but only because of her strength and determination. Ethically, she's well above Evita.

But, you know, if Giano starts agreeing with the Cabal in any way, he'll be accused of "selling out" the people and then we'll have to wait for another savior and so on and so on.

Giano is the "People's Arbitrator" but he could quickly become the "People's Arbitraitor."

Don't cry for me, Wikipedia.

Giano is the "People's Arbitrator" but he could quickly become the "People's Arbitraitor."

That's actually the norm. Though we of course hope better for Giano,

Assuming he isn't soon to-be muzzled, handcuffed and waterboarded after a short plane trip to Afghanistan.

Juan Peron (and Evita) campaigned on bringing power to the people, and when Juan stepped down and Evita was dead, much of the national treasury was in numbered bank accounts in Switzerland.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I like Giano and hope he can change or influence things, but I think WP is so deep in poo-poo that even he can not hope to clean out the Augean Stables in three years (if he survives for three years).

Mr. Smith went to Washington and changed a few things. Who knows? Maybe Giano will do same.

Jimbo's been doing a lot of things by fiat lately. He's made it clear he does not like Giano and over his dead body will he allow Giano on the ArbCom. I wonder if Jimbo even encouraged the ArbCom to add him as a party to the Durova RFAR in the hopes of at least discrediting him.

The role of being an arbitrator is defined by the system. Reformer or not, he will not be allowed to make overly radical decisions that others and us would like. WP is like Iran. It has its politicians but the politicians can only be as radical as the Supreme Ayatollah will allow. There is no people power.

It would be stupid of Jimbo to discount the results and appoint out of the list who he wants. But Jimbo's disappointed us and WP before with his by fiat decisions and I believe he will simply say to those who disagree that they can either accept his decision or shove it. Accept it or leave. And many will leave. But it will not deter Jimbo.

Now I have to go hide with Salman Rushdie for my Ayatollah comment.

I wonder if Jimbo even encouraged the ArbCom to add him as a party to the Durova RFAR in the hopes of at least discrediting him.

Well, duh.

The role of being an arbitrator is defined by the system. Reformer or not, he will not be allowed to make overly radical decisions that others and us would like. WP is like Iran. It has its politicians but the politicians can only be as radical as the Supreme Ayatollah will allow. There is no people power.

Iran is actually the most active democracy in the Middle East (and admired by most ME peoples as such), though the results don't jive with U.S. policy so well.

I would call Wikipedia a constitutional monarchy, because it has the king, with an active parliament, and a reasonable legall or rule structure, but it isn't even close.

Wikipedia is a lot more like Pakistan, which dissolved Parliament about 6 years ago, when it bugged the head guy, and recently jettisoned the Supreme Court (which didn't fly) but now has martial law installed, as from three weeks ago - because it seemed things weren't going the chiefs way.

It would be stupid of Jimbo to discount the results and appoint out of the list who he wants.

That never stopped him before.

Now I have to go hide with Salman Rushdie for my Ayatollah comment.

No, that's only if you bought a Durova for Arbcom teddy bear, and named it after the founder of Islam. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

But the Iranian courts threw out several candidates who were for reform during their last presidential election. Also, you can't get anything done without Khameini's approval. I would agree that Iran is more democratic than most ME countries, but there's still a shadow dictator in the background.

Yes, I've been thinking of Jimbo as Musharrif since he desyopped Zscout.

I've been in one of my apocalyptic existentialist moods lately and I apologize for being such a downer. I was enthusiastic that Giano would run, but now even if he did win, I fear there is no hope! Abandon all hope all ye who edit there!

I guess I'll go buy a Teddy bear for my little nephew. I will ask him what he will name the bear. He will say "Jimbo." And I will receive 500 lashes, a banning of one year, and be accused of being a Wikipedia Review sock based on secret evidence I can not defend against.

Of course, if Giano gets on the ArbCom, he might reduce my sentence...

Slight rules change.

It looks as if Giano is to be banned for 90 days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ned_for_90_days

All three arbitrators on the mailing list, Matthew Brown, Jpgordon and FloNight, who should have recused themselves, now support the ban. Without their support, it has no chance of passing with five opposes. This decision, if enacted, lacks not just moral but procedural legitimacy.

The question is, what can be done about it?

Seems like this rules change may be the last hope:

Slight rules change.

This post has been edited by Proabivouac:

It looks as if Giano is to be banned for 90 days:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ned_for_90_days

All three arbitrators on the mailing list, Matthew Brown, Jpgordon and FloNight, who should have recused themselves, now support the ban. Without their support, it has no chance of passing with five opposes. This decision, if enacted, lacks not just moral but procedural legitimacy.

The question is, what can be done about it?

Seems like this rules change may be the last hope:

Slight rules change.

Grimly, I note that the only active arbitrator who has not yet voted on the 90 day remedy is James F., who is in my experience an unreasonable person. Still, let's hold out hope that he will get it right this time.

James F. (User:Jdforrester) has opposed all sanctions against Giano and supported any passing sanction being lifted upon Giano's appointment to arbcom. I'm surprised, he dislikes Giano as I understand it and has conspired against him on IRC.

No remedies regarding Giano pass, not even a warning. It looks like Giano is going to come out of this whistling clean. Fred must be furious.

James F. (User:Jdforrester) has opposed all sanctions against Giano and supported any passing sanction being lifted upon Giano's appointment to arbcom. I'm surprised, he dislikes Giano as I understand it and has conspired against him on IRC.

No remedies regarding Giano pass, not even a warning. It looks like Giano is going to come out of this whistling clean. Fred must be furious.

Fred, and The Uninvited One (who was the one who drafted proposal 7, then waited for Fred to vote But we all know this was discussed by several others before it went up there, don't we.

Thanks to real free speech, on wiki and off, this malfeasance was discovered and repudiated.

Slight rules change.

Does this mean that NYBrad will finally strap on a pair and vote?

He shouldntve recused himself for having criticised Durova in the RFC. That was simply wanting to be out of the dirtstorm which came and passed. You can come out now, Brad.

(edit) Oops. My bad. I confused his self-recusal as a clerk from the case. (sigh) Honestly, I lost faith in Arbcom long ago, and stopped paying attention to the specific whos and whats of it, until now. Mostly because it made me ill to watch.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Are you serious? You know Newyorkbrad's not on the Committee yet, right? He just recused as a clerk. The newly active arb was Blnguyen. Which means that all arbitrators have voted on the Giano remedies, though it was all for naught.

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

Does this mean that NYBrad will finally strap on a pair and vote?

He shouldntve recused himself for having criticised Durova in the RFC. That was simply wanting to be out of the dirtstorm which came and passed. You can come out now, Brad.

I believe that NYBrad is only a clerk, so he can't vote in this. He recused from clerking, not from being an arb.

I believe that NYBrad is only a clerk, so he can't vote in this.

Quite right, though he's a candidate in the elections so with any luck he'll be on ArbCom soon.

ELOQUENT, ELOQUENT, ELOQUENT(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/bbat.jpg)

Looks like he just smelled the coffee. I'd like to offer him some sugar and cream, in thanks for that well-said speech.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Bbatsell was responding to the line of Bauder (below), who despite having this pointed out to him, repeated inanely that Giano was the problem. Also to counter that people who quit in disgust are being manipulative. Fred is amazing. They should put him in a museum.

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/protgban.jpg)

Fred Bauder's response is highlighted in black. Was the man REALLY a lawyer? I'm going to withhold an obvious cheap shot at him, about his legal ethical history. It is far too easy. But wow, does he ever made it easy.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Also interesting are these recent WP entries:


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This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Iran is actually the most active democracy in the Middle East

You mean Israel has been moved? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

Iran is actually the most active democracy in the Middle East

You mean Israel has been moved? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif)

My bad. The most functional democracy in an Arabic state, per Arabic opinions I've listened to. Repeat, this is what I hear from educated professional persons, who when I asked, when we were discussing politics, in the (necessary) abstract (i.e. tactfully not criticizing their current government, but theorizing on a perfect world). Literally I've been told, "we'd like that model for democracy here".

Which is kind of a 'oh, wow cripes' piece of information to receive. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) Given who is in office there now.

Causing me to take thoughtful, tactfully silent, sip of tea.

My take? Many admire Ahmadinejad 's outspokenness against the U.S., not for it's substance, but for that he does it at all. I think much of the pan-Arabic support of Ahmadinejad is (sadly) about Arabic pride restoration. Ironically, most (very educated) Iranians I know are embarassed by the current top guy. (but aren't many of us feeling similarly these years, about our own big guys?)

ps: The troops are in revolt over at WP as we speak. Why worry about my post on ME politics?

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

My bad. The most functional democracy in an Arabic state, per Arabic opinions I've listened to. Repeat, this is what I hear from educated professional persons, who when I asked, when we were discussing politics, in the (necessary) abstract (i.e. tactfully not criticizing their current government, but theorizing on a perfect world). Literally I've been told, "we'd like that model for democracy here".

I think Iranians would have something to say about you calling them Arabic (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) Most Iranians speak Farsi (Persian). I assume you meant Muslim? Actually some of the smaller gulf states are making quicker moves to democracy than Iran, although it is probably fair to say Iran is better on the rights of women than those. As for Israel, in my opinion you don't ethnically cleanse people of a different religion in their hundreds of thousands if not millions and then say because most of you now agree that is a democracy.

I think Iranians would have something to say about you calling them Arabic (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) Most Iranians speak Farsi (Persian). I assume you meant Muslim? Actually some of the smaller gulf states are making quicker moves to democracy than Iran, although it is probably fair to say Iran is better on the rights of women than those. As for Israel, in my opinion you don't ethnically cleanse people of a different religion in their hundreds of thousands if not millions and then say because most of you now agree that is a democracy.

Oh for f's sake. Yes, I know Persian's aren't arabic, nor are all muslims arabs, nor all arabs muslims. Thanks for bringing that to the fore.

My original statement concerned democracies in the ME. Guy saw fit to comment on my omission of Israel, which I noted was not one of the Arabic states, which was a valid omission on my part, but not when taken in context of that I was seeking to highlight countries in the ME which are in potential democratic transition, and speaking specifically of Arab inputs to potential future directions.

My semantic omissions are hardly as important as the topic of this board, or todays events, but since this needs apparently needs to be clarified: YES Iran is not Arabic, nor is much of Afghanistan (much of which is persian), nor Pakistan, nor the muslim-heavy country of Malaysia, or even much of India. I'm disappointed that you want to continue the tangental diversion, but ok fine.

To clarify, Iran is what, it would appear, from my small "word on the street" in Arab countries, what, I have been told by Arabs, that some people in Arab countries have expressed, privately, as a model for future direction. I also noted my unexpressed-to-them concerns with that Iran is viewed as an ideal, given the current tense political situation involving Iran. Happy now?

Sorry, but I'm focusing on the issue of this board.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Ignoring Fred's new proposals, Paul August moves to close:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...Motion_to_close

Like I said before, all arbitrators have voted on actionable remedies and all proposed bans or restrictions on Giano have failed. Still waiting on the "warning", which needs like 3 more votes (and only 2 more supports to pass, if I remember right someone abstained).

Looks like Giano has grasped the katana again. Good for him.

EDIT: My mistake, FloNight hasn't had enough apparently.

Oppose until we decide to address Giano concerns here or on another case. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"I think I'll prolong this until I get my way". Does she not realize that ALL arbitrators have now voted on the ban, and that the namespace restrictions can't get passed even if all remaining voters support? Looks to me like the Giano "concerns" have already been addressed fully. What an insufferable hag.

With Fred opposing closure and Mackensen suporting it, it's 2/2, net zero votes.

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

1. Oppose, but am open to forking the issues which relate to Giano. Fred Bauder 14:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose until we decide to address Giano concerns here or on another case. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So Fred Bauder looks forward to "forking" Giano, after Christmas, with a big fork, and Flonight, now pleased that her moral turpitude has blissfully been ignored, seeks to join.

Blech.

I hope someone has the balls to ask Fred about his own moral concerns, given he has his right to practice law suspended (an effective disbarment) over an accusation of soliciting a client's wife for prostitution. Which means that Fred was technically disbarred, given that he didn't pay the 200 buck fine, or show up to court to contest. I think that would be an excellent fork too, and I hope one of the Giano squad picks up on it.

IN THE MATTER OF FRED BAUDER ... No. 98SA447 - ORIGINAL PROCEEDING IN DISCIPLINE. IN THE MATTER OF FRED BAUDER EN BANC - ATTORNEY SUSPENDED - PER CURIAM - Attorney Regulation – Failing to Pay Costs of Discipline Proceeding as Ordered – Attorney Suspended The supreme court suspended the respondent in this lawyer regulation case for thirty days, required that he must petition for reinstatement, and ordered that he pay certain costs as a condition of reinstatement. The respondent was publicly censured in 1997 and was ordered to pay the costs associated with that proceeding within thirty days. The respondent has not paid the costs as ordered and has offered no justification for his failure to do so. He knowingly disobeyed an order of this court in violation of Colo. RPC 3.4©, and engaged in conduct prejudicial to the administration of justice, contrary to Colo. RPC 8.4(d). His failure to cooperate in this proceeding violated C.R.C.P. 241.6(7).
(link to State of Colorado records)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Sorry, but I'm focusing on the issue of this board.

Good! Hopefully we can avoid having this thread go off the rails too...

However, I found a pretty good Persian restaurant in Omaha, Nebraska when I was there the last time. I thought about calling up MONGO and inviting him to join me, but somehow I doubt he's into Persian cuisine. (Besides, I don't know his phone number!)

Well, Durova clearly misjudged you as a wiki-cyber-stalker (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I don't believe they will let Giano go. Half of the ArbCom wants him banned for 90 days, an incredibly extreme position, so it stands to reason they will insist on some kind of penalty being imposed, perhaps a ban of shorter duration. It would only take one swing vote.

My greatest wiki dream is to learn MONGO's real name, get ahold of an admin account, and edit the MediaWiki namespace page that determines the rollback edit summary to say "MONGO'S REAL NAME IS *******"

So if anyone ever learns of his real name, let me know.

I dunno Everyking, everyone looks pretty set. Most of the opposers are doing so quite firmly, I'm sure the most recent (Blnguyen) wouldn't have just jumped on board to oppose if he wasn't sure. Who do you suppose will swing?

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

I don't believe they will let Giano go. Half of the ArbCom wants him banned for 90 days, an incredibly extreme position, so it stands to reason they will insist on some kind of penalty being imposed, perhaps a ban of shorter duration. It would only take one swing vote.

See this could get interesting, given Giano's strong friendships with longtime users.

I don't think that this gang realizes that too many people are freaked out by their antics.

In other words, Giano Punishment = hell to pay.

Much more interesting that Durova's sham case. Where she'll get re-sysopped on the claim that this was all a mistaken, when no one is looking. The rules are already being gerrymandered to support that claim. A deal was apparently cut, ex post facto, to reinstate her. Again, this won't fly easily, so it will be quite interesting to watch.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I think Iranians would have something to say about you calling them Arabic (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) Most Iranians speak Farsi (Persian). I assume you meant Muslim?

Oh for f's sake. Yes, I know Persian's aren't arabic, nor are all muslims arabs, nor all arabs muslims. Thanks for bringing that to the fore.

Sorry, but I'm focusing on the issue of this board.

Umm please don't have a go at me for correcting something that you did say- how was I meant to know you didn't actually think Iran was Arabic when that is what you said. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) It would be nice if sometimes people could say oops I made a mistake there instead of going apeshit about being criticized.

It would be nice if sometimes people could say oops I made a mistake there instead of going apeshit about being criticized.

Oops! I made a mistake there!

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smiling.gif)

Umm please don't have a go at me for correcting something that you did say- how was I meant to know you didn't actually think Iran was Arabic when that is what you said. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) It would be nice if sometimes people could say oops I made a mistake there instead of going apeshit about being criticized.

My point?: Why doesn't anyone look up there and notice that someone from a DOD contrator is making edits (supposedly to a Macy's IP) in a surprisingly Durova-like manner, to support 'copyright' protections, which was Durova's idea for protecting her lame communications.

To respond to your question: Apeshit? I think not. Its not the criticism, it is the context. First: I made an offhand simile odd reference to politics, in a post. I was wrote that Iran was admired in much of the ME, as a functioning democracy, neglecting the qualifier "by Arabs". Guy pointed out that this omitted Israel, and I explained that this was an Arab point of view I'd noticed (noting that I found this worrisome). I then typed "Arabic democracy" instead of "ME democracy" in my reply. You then informed me that Iran was not an Arab state, which I'm well apprised of, and sought to further discuss Israel and comparative political change vis-a-vis the Gulf States. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/blink.gif) That's not why I'm posting on this board.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Actually some of the smaller gulf states are making quicker moves to democracy than Iran, although it is probably fair to say Iran is better on the rights of women than those. As for Israel, in my opinion you don't ethnically cleanse people of a different religion in their hundreds of thousands if not millions and then say because most of you now agree that is a democracy.

I won't sidetrack the thread by replying.

Amen. Though there is a thread for that.

Anyway, Kirill has supported closing, putting it at 3/2, one net vote. Looks like it's coming down to those in favor of a ban against those who aren't. A filibuster if there ever was one on the part of Fred and evil, evil Flo.

This is just becoming amusing at this point. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out in a month, though - it's a shame the stalemate won't last that long, because when Bauder's gone, are they going to have to revisit it if a sane Arb gets placed in his stead?

Raul and Uninvited to close, Uninvited is pissy about losing so he wants to "remand to Jimbo" those issues with tied votes. Ha!

Let's see what Jimbo's made of. Will he make good on his threat to ban Giano?

Raul and Uninvited to close, Uninvited is pissy about losing so he wants to "remand to Jimbo" those issues with tied votes. Ha!

Let's see what Jimbo's made of. Will he make good on his threat to ban Giano?

He might. But by now Jimbo might have lost interest. Jimbo got involved due to the high-drama quotient of Durova's email being on wiki. That's done, and the case is almost done. If Jimbo does take the time to ban Giano, I suspect he'll be surprised by the response. But JImbo has other fish to fry. I doubt he'll roll in the mud. Though anything is possible.

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

I then typed "Arabic" instead of ME" in my reply. You then informed me that Iran was not an Arab state, which I'm well apprised of,

Right so you made a mistake, there is no way that I could have known it was not a misconception on your part rather than a simple typo so don't have a go at me for sidetracking the thread.

Sincere apologies for any offense. From my point of view I'd mistyped once, and the explanation was being parsed, and, I felt, distracted from the main point.

Things were quite interesting today, so I dont understand why that isn't the fous.

Grimly, I note that the only active arbitrator who has not yet voted on the 90 day remedy is James F., who is in my experience an unreasonable person. Still, let's hold out hope that he will get it right this time.

Dredging this comment up from the last page-

I disagree with your characterization. James F. is by far one of the most reasonable and merciful arbiters, if a bit of a stickler for rules and procedure. He's useful as a bellwether of punishment. Whatever James supports will almost always be the minimum the subject is going to get away with.

I disagree with your characterization. James F. is by far one of the most reasonable and merciful arbiters, if a bit of a stickler for rules and procedure. He's useful as a bellwether of punishment. Whatever James supports will almost always be the minimum the subject is going to get away with.

Bull. He's historically been one to glom onto Fred's poor reasoning and take too much stock in poor evidence. He's one of the 4 of the current crop I don't trust under any circumstances.

And he's just prolonged the case! 6 to close, 3 opposed, leaving them just one short of the 4 net votes. Wow, I have never seen such a divisive decision. They are just all over the place. This is fun to watch.w

I as hoping they'd close it off and Giano would shoop right through the burning ring of banning, but Jdforrester wants to "examine Jehochman". I think everyone forgot about him, despite his name appearing in the case. hey ought to get Mercury to, he's as much a meatpuppet if not more, since he's still listening to Durova. But at least they're considering Jehochman, and I hope they come up with something good. He's a bastard.

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

... But at least they're considering Jehochman, and I hope they come up with something good. He's a bastard.

I didn't say it, Jonathan! I didn't say it! That's Miltopia, one of "your" own from "your" side!

Greg

Since when has a mere trifling detail like the identity of the poster ever stopped him? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/huh.gif)

What?

What?

Mr. Kohs is referring to Mr. Hochman's tendency to paint, or "tar," all WR members with the same brush, a trait shared by many within the WP admin (and admin-wannabe) community.

So it might not matter to him that it was you, Mr. Miltopia, who referred to Mr. Hochman as a "bastard" - he'll simply say "WR called me a bastard, and Kohs is a prominent member of WR, ergo..."

I know, it sounds ludicrous, but we all know that's exactly what he'll do.

... But at least they're considering Jehochman, and I hope they come up with something good. He's a bastard.

I didn't say it, Jonathan! I didn't say it! That's Miltopia, one of "your" own from "your" side!

Greg

Excepting a few bio subjects (= targets), almost everyone here is from Wikipedia. The first thing an outsider would notice is that, far from being Wikipedia's opposite, WR is socially an extension of Wikipedia. Shared characters, shared subject matter, shared disputes, even a shared name. The only respect in which it's not part of Wikipedia is political - the verdicts of ANI and the Arbitration Committee can't reach us here.

One country, two systems.

... But at least they're considering Jehochman, and I hope they come up with something good. He's a bastard.

I didn't say it, Jonathan! I didn't say it! That's Miltopia, one of "your" own from "your" side!

Greg

WRONG. According to KOH'S LAW™, all Wikipedia discussions about trolls, vandals, Wikipedia Review and anything distasteful will lead back to you.

You are 'tarred'
(IMG:http://www.luvzbluez.com/images/brerrabbit.jpg)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

And he's just prolonged the case! 6 to close, 3 opposed, leaving them just one short of the 4 net votes. Wow, I have never seen such a divisive decision. They are just all over the place. This is fun to watch.w

I as hoping they'd close it off and Giano would shoop right through the burning ring of banning, but Jdforrester wants to "examine Jehochman". I think everyone forgot about him, despite his name appearing in the case. hey ought to get Mercury to, he's as much a meatpuppet if not more, since he's still listening to Durova. But at least they're considering Jehochman, and I hope they come up with something good. He's a bastard.

Divisive is exactly right. Time for Judge Bauder to crack those L-O-V-E/ H-A-T-E knuckles and get down to some serious persuasion. If not he is going to come out of this seriously reduced. The best possible outcome is Fred fails to muscle a "consensus" and Mr. Wales has to directly impose his will against Giano. This would be so damaging I wouldn't be surprised if Wales opted for some incoherent mumbling about "everybody love one another" and walks away in order to cut his losses.

(IMG:http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1332407/2/istockphoto_1332407_lady_doctor_examine_man_s_heart.jpg)but Jdforrester wants to "examine Jehochman".

The words "examining Jehochman" gives me a creepy mental picture. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/unsure.gif)

But he's been out of that case for a while now. Offiically. (So please Jon, put your clothes back on)

I think everyone forgot about him, despite his name appearing in the case.

They didn't forg et him. They just claimed he didn't do anything wrong here. Which isn't true, since he was part of (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) the list, and he was acting jointly with Durova to cover things up (and attack !! and co.) but who listens to me?

They ought to get Mercury to, he's as much a meatpuppet if not more, since he's still listening to Durova.

Good idea. Let's everyone add people they don't like to the Durova case. Just for fun. And it would prove a point. If they can add random people, for saying things they don't like during this session, they we can too. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

on a less light note, teams of people are lining up to explain to Durova why things weren't just single case incident, and why what happened wasn't procedurally, or morally correct. She still doesn't get it.

Geogre, you keep repeating that my action violated policy. What policy? Policy was silent, and I certainly have wished on many occasions that policy addressed these matters. What happened in practice was that hardly anyone cared as long as my actions were near-perfect, but the moment I made a genuine mistake the storm descended. It didn't matter how quickly I undid the block or how humbly sorry I was for it, or even that I've resigned my administratorship. If Giano's action had been necessary to reverse a block then I'd agree he acted toward some greater good, but that wasn't the case. I'd already acknowledged my error and done all I could to atone for it. Instead my good faith willingness to accept feedback and correction got abused for betrayal and ridicule. DurovaCharge! 00:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Um. Getting Durova to see anything from an alternate point of view is like... blood from a turnip.(IMG:http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/01/23/23232301.jpg)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Flash !!!

The Impromptu Recognition Committee (IRC) of The Wikipedia Review is pleased to announce the awarding of the «Deep Throat Wiki-Luving Cup for 2007» to Giano.

In addition to the Fabled Trophy that we can't seem to get rid of, the award entitles the winner to a year's free subscription to all of the premium services provided by BomisBÔÔbs.Com.

On B½ Of The IRC,

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:

The Impromptu Recognition Committee (IRC) of The Wikipedia Review is pleased to announce the awarding of the «Deep Throat Wiki-Luving Cup for 2007» to Giano.

Is that link supposed to work? There's a copy of the lyrics to "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans at http://www.frodisman.com/2525.html, but I don't see what that has to do with Deep Throat, loving cups, or even 2007.

I'm probably missing something really obvious...

There should be a MIDI playing in the background.

The Impromptu Recognition Committee (IRC) of The Wikipedia Review is pleased to announce the awarding of the «Deep Throat Wiki-Luving Cup for 2007» to Giano.

Is that link supposed to work? There's a copy of the lyrics to "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans at http://www.frodisman.com/2525.html, but I don't see what that has to do with Deep Throat, loving cups, or even 2007.

I'm probably missing something really obvious …

Okay, it's really a LavaLampâ„¢. It's been gathering dust in the warehouse since way before the Nostry Award. And then we tried to dump it on Durova on the spur-of-the-moment pretense of a phony sting-type contest, but she was too smart to show up in person. Then some joker from the Academy said that maybe if we called it a LuvingCup we could unload it on yet another wikiwhistleblower of things to come.

Jonny (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

This post has been edited by Jonny Cache:

So now it appears that it swung the other way - any block on Giano is defeated outright, and the four net votes exist to close. Color me very surprised.

So now it appears that it swung the other way - any block on Giano is defeated outright, and the four net votes exist to close. Color me very surprised.

Quite a loss for Bauder.

Yes, he will leave the committee in disgrace now.

DL, I say they should go after Mercury because he made the situation worse, not because I don't like him. He's actually not bad personally, just doesn't have very good judgment. But there's really very little actionable arbcom could do about him...

EDIT: Matthew Brown and FloNight (ugh) have changed to oppose Giano's ban, FloNight specifically to "avoid having to call in a tie-breaker" (hurray for technicalities), so it's at 4-8. jpgordon and Matthew Brown support closing, which is at 8-3, 5 net votes. Looks like it's over.

Anyone else think ArbCom has taken a huge hit among the WP community?

This post has been edited by Miltopia:

So now it appears that it swung the other way - any block on Giano is defeated outright, and the four net votes exist to close. Color me very surprised.

Barring the intervention of Jimbo (which would be so out of line that it might cause the community to seriously reassess his role) or a new case (unlikely to reach any other outcome), it looks like Giano has escaped unscathed. This is tremendous, underscoring the almost revolutionary nature of the whole case, and I think it has to be attributed to overwhelming opposition and pressure from the community, which made it impossible for the ArbCom to decide this case in its usual, comically unjust fashion.

This is the third relatively recent case, to my knowledge, where there was massive public outcry at the absurdity of ArbCom.

Given that many of the usual suspects actually buckled this time is nothing but good news for those who are still continuing on with the project.

This is going to make elections VERY interesting.

Barring the intervention of Jimbo (which would be so out of line that it might cause the community to seriously reassess his role) or a new case (unlikely to reach any other outcome), it looks like Giano has escaped unscathed. This is tremendous, underscoring the almost revolutionary nature of the whole case, and I think it has to be attributed to overwhelming opposition and pressure from the community, which made it impossible for the ArbCom to decide this case in its usual, comically unjust fashion.

Ahem.

Don't forget the value of a skillfully placed Wikipedia Review heckle™

As usual, we aren't given credit for anything, whereas you all know that a minimum of 50 Wpedians were over here, breathing in every word, every joke, every DfArbcom Cafepress sale (and every "Wikipedia Justice" video™).

We deserve some credit for helping them to help themselves. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wink.gif) We know you want to....

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

It's closed. I was wrong though, a remedy against Giano did pass, the "reminded" one. I didn't realize Paul August had abstained, bringing the majority required for that remedy to 6, which it got.

Yes, he will leave the committee in disgrace now.

As well he should. He's made a joke of the Arbcom with his 5th grader's justice practices.

I'm just glad it was so obvious in the last moments, so he left with exactly the reputation he deserves.

Anyone else think ArbCom has taken a huge hit among the WP community?

Actually, they might wind up with a functioning, just Arbcom. On account of how disgustingliy corrupt this one showed itself to be, on the eve of the election. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/cool.gif)

It's closed. I was wrong though, a remedy against Giano did pass, the "reminded" one. I didn't realize Paul August had abstained, bringing the majority required for that remedy to 6, which it got.

Reminded is nothing. Everyone knows those Giano remedies were a joke.

VIVA GIANISSIMO!!

(IMG:http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff167/DisillusionedLackey/istallion-1.jpg)

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

This is the third relatively recent case, to my knowledge, where there was massive public outcry at the absurdity of ArbCom.

Given that many of the usual suspects actually buckled this time is nothing but good news for those who are still continuing on with the project.

This is going to make elections VERY interesting.

I do not think so.

The ending discussion showed me that Arbcom. really is a non-event in the grand scheme of things. It appears to be a kangaroo court at best with virtually no real litigation and no foundation in any real law. ANYWHERE. The sad part is, Jimbo and the rest of the players there really believe the rest of the world look at them with admiration. Anyone acting in a real live court system sees WP Arbcom. as a middle school student council type entity. Zero credibilty for the outside real live world. They are really quite... (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/wacko.gif)

Did anyone else notice that !! put this link on his talk page, about the case of Nathaniel Ames?

Ames’ wife had owned a tavern and the situation gave rise to Ames v. Gay, one of the famous lawsuits of New England. Ames (a compulsively litigious man) claimed inheritance to her estate according to the Province law through their son Fisher against his mother-in-law Hannah, who claimed the rights to it under the Common law, a struggle continued by her family after she died in December 1744. In August 1749 Ames won the case, and thus established an exception to the rule of inheritance in Massachusetts. However, two of the eleven Superior Court of Judicature justices were against him, leading the normally amiable Ames to an especially vituperative stance against lawyers for the rest of his career.[9] He took down his tavern sign and replaced it with a cartoon of the judges, all easily identifiable. Each was shown studying the Province laws, except the two dissenters, who had their backs turned to the law books. Chief Justice Paul Dudley, one of the dissenters, sent the sheriff to arrest Ames and confiscate the libelous portrait. Ames was warned and quickly substituted Matt. 16:4: “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it.”

This post has been edited by Disillusioned Lackey:

Mongo consoles Durova and prays for a just Good-King to put things right.