The Wikipedia Review: A forum for discussion and criticism of Wikipedia
Wikipedia Review Op-Ed Pages

Welcome, Guest! ( Log In | Register )

> General Discussion? What's that all about?

This subforum is for general discussion of Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects. For a glossary of terms frequently used in such discussions, please refer to Wikipedia:Glossary. For a glossary of musical terms, see here. Other useful links:

Akahele.orgWikipedia-WatchWikitruthWP:ANWikiEN-L/Foundation-L (mailing lists) • Citizendium forums

4 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Review hits the airwaves....., thanks for coming chaps.....
Rating  5
Lar
post Fri 4th April 2008, 10:34pm
Post #41


"His blandness goes to 11!"
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,116
Joined: Wed 26th Dec 2007, 6:04pm
From: A large LEGO storage facility
Member No.: 4,290



QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:22pm) *

My bad. I got about 3 sentences into that, nodding to myself that ya, that scans like a Jonny Cache screed might, full of dense alliterations, hidden meanings, etc, and do I have time to puzzle it out just for fun.... when...

...alarm bells went off and I recognised it for what it was... Scott Pakin's work. Jonny, I'm disappointed in you, you're slacking.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Kato
post Fri 4th April 2008, 10:43pm
Post #42


dhd
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 5,521
Joined: Fri 29th Dec 2006, 8:39pm
Member No.: 767



QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 4th April 2008, 11:34pm) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:22pm) *

My bad. I got about 3 sentences into that, nodding to myself that ya, that scans like a Jonny Cache screed might, full of dense alliterations, hidden meanings, etc, and do I have time to puzzle it out just for fun.... when...

...alarm bells went off and I recognised it for what it was... Scott Pakin's work. Jonny, I'm disappointed in you, you're slacking.

That's no Cache. To be honest I didn't think much of the guys's arguments, nor the pretentious prose. Cache uses all manner of techniques but they are playful rather than pretentious -- and they're usually funny if nothing else.

Update: I get it now... wink.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Somey
post Sat 5th April 2008, 1:33am
Post #43


Can't actually moderate (or even post)
*********

Group: Moderators
Posts: 11,815
Joined: Sat 17th Jun 2006, 7:47pm
From: Dreamland
Member No.: 275



QUOTE(Kato @ Fri 4th April 2008, 5:43pm) *
Update: I get it now... wink.gif

I totally have to get my hands on the source code for that thing...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post Sat 5th April 2008, 3:35am
Post #44


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined: Thu 1st Feb 2007, 10:21pm
Member No.: 911



QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:34pm) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:22pm) *

My bad. I got about 3 sentences into that, nodding to myself that ya, that scans like a Jonny Cache screed might, full of...


So, can we say we have another innocent user blocked as a sockpuppet? Because I know this HarryPotter editor wasn't me. And Jonny could confirm that it certainly wasn't him.

Greg
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post Sat 5th April 2008, 3:55am
Post #45


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined: Thu 1st Feb 2007, 10:21pm
Member No.: 911



NonvocalScream realized that he/she was a doofus, and thus closed his/her own AfD early, as a Keep.

Quick eyeball of the "Delete" votes shows our rogue's gallery of the most brain-deficient characters on Wikipedia:

Calton "Everything is spam" Bollick
Guy "Riding to restore havoc" Chapman
Phil "The Chill" Sandifer
Michael "Der President asks, 'Mommy, is my Swiss cocoa hot now?'" Bimmler

What a lonely patrol, out on point, completely fragged by not just the rest of their company, but the whole regiment.

Too funny. Congratulations, dipwads!

Greg
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Jonny Cache
post Sat 5th April 2008, 4:00am
Post #46


τα δε μοι παθήματα μαθήματα γέγονε
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 5,100
Joined: Sat 9th Sep 2006, 1:52am
Member No.: 398

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 4th April 2008, 11:35pm) *

QUOTE(Lar @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:34pm) *

QUOTE(dogbiscuit @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:22pm) *

My bad. I got about 3 sentences into that, nodding to myself that ya, that scans like a Jonny Cache screed might, full of …


So, can we say we have another innocent user blocked as a sockpuppet? Because I know this HarryPotter editor wasn't me. And Jonny could confirm that it certainly wasn't him.

Greg


BTDT — I can't even get that poor AnonIP from Deutschland cleared!

Ygolohcysp Esrever being what it is in Wikiputia, our most earnest efforts to exonerate the Grim HPWD would only be taken as utterly j'accusatory condemnations.

Jonny cool.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
UseOnceAndDestroy
post Sat 5th April 2008, 10:22am
Post #47


Über Member
*****

Group: Moderators
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri 7th Dec 2007, 3:43pm
Member No.: 4,073



QUOTE(Random832 @ Fri 4th April 2008, 6:08pm) *

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 4th April 2008, 1:01pm) *

Mr. Pellegrini (Raul654) looks like a complete buffoon... He stated:

[snip/]

The Wikipedia Reward Board states in several places:
[snip/]


Actually, I don't think Raul is lying, exactly...

Wikipedia:Bounty board was and is precisely as he describes, and he may have mixed the two up (and since he for whatever reason doesn't trust you, there's no reason for him to bother clicking to check his facts)

Is anyone aware of Raul attempting to correct the "mix up" yet?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dogbiscuit
post Sat 5th April 2008, 12:58pm
Post #48


Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
********

Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined: Tue 4th Dec 2007, 12:42am
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015



QUOTE(UseOnceAndDestroy @ Sat 5th April 2008, 11:22am) *


Is anyone aware of Raul attempting to correct the "mix up" yet?


He did backtrack a little:

QUOTE

There are two errors in my above comments I'd like to clarify - Wordbomb contacted me to let me know that it was an <img src> tag, which (as Random832 says below) is equivalent to the first thing I described - a link to a file on a sever to which he has access to the logs. This is not how it was described to me originally, nor how it was described in the podcast, but regardless, it's a mistake on my part. It's not quite as bad a thing as I had heard, but it's still a dirty thing to do(1). Second, Wikipedia:Reward board does, in fact, allow monetary payments to an editor as a reward for editing an article. However, most people would agree that being paid by another editor to improve an article he/she likes is not a conflict of interest (or at worst a pretty small one), whereas being paid by the subject of the article to improve it clearly is a very big conflict of interest.(2) Raul654 (talk) 16:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


1. Not as dirty as passing on what I would expect to be a confidential conversation to the subject of the complaint. (And anyone with any sense ignores receipt requested prompts!)

2. Which if Raul listened, he would be aware that this issue was discussed at length and an agreed solution found.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Moulton
post Sat 5th April 2008, 1:46pm
Post #49


Anthropologist from Mars
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 10,220
Joined: Mon 29th Oct 2007, 9:56pm
From: Greater Boston
Member No.: 3,670

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



It's remarkably difficult to correct an error without offending the party whose error is being corrected.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lar
post Sat 5th April 2008, 1:59pm
Post #50


"His blandness goes to 11!"
*******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 2,116
Joined: Wed 26th Dec 2007, 6:04pm
From: A large LEGO storage facility
Member No.: 4,290



QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 4th April 2008, 11:55pm) *

NonvocalScream realized that he/she was a doofus, and thus closed his/her own AfD early, as a Keep.

Quick eyeball of the "Delete" votes shows our rogue's gallery of the most brain-deficient characters on Wikipedia:

Calton "Everything is spam" Bollick
Guy "Riding to restore havoc" Chapman
Phil "The Chill" Sandifer
Michael "Der President asks, 'Mommy, is my Swiss cocoa hot now?'" Bimmler

What a lonely patrol, out on point, completely fragged by not just the rest of their company, but the whole regiment.

Too funny. Congratulations, dipwads!

Greg

You sounded fairly reasonable in that podcast... (for the most part). However, comments like "Congratulations, dipwads!"give me pause ... I have to wonder how they help anything. Why give the detractors of your message ammo?

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 4th April 2008, 11:35pm) *

So, can we say we have another innocent user blocked as a sockpuppet? Because I know this HarryPotter editor wasn't me. And Jonny could confirm that it certainly wasn't him.

That struck me as a throwaway sock of someone or another, based on behaviour patterns, with contributions that were disruptive (if amusing), so I'm not seeing unblocking as a good use of anyone's time, really. You knew that already, you just wanted to see if I'd respond this way, right?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Moulton
post Sat 5th April 2008, 2:22pm
Post #51


Anthropologist from Mars
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 10,220
Joined: Mon 29th Oct 2007, 9:56pm
From: Greater Boston
Member No.: 3,670

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



Not to change the subject or anything, but I was hoping that Lar and the other more moderate WP admins here would weigh in on the prospect of future round-table discussions featuring otherwise adversarial individuals on opposite sides of the table.

Civil dialogue, while perhaps rare and lacking in dramaturgy, may be the saving grace that allows these banal and unbecoming sniping wars to morph into something more constructive and peaceable, such as a Truth and Reconciliation Process.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
dogbiscuit
post Sat 5th April 2008, 3:40pm
Post #52


Could you run through Verifiability not Truth once more?
********

Group: Members
Posts: 2,972
Joined: Tue 4th Dec 2007, 12:42am
From: The Midlands
Member No.: 4,015



QUOTE(Moulton @ Sat 5th April 2008, 3:22pm) *

Not to change the subject or anything, but I was hoping that Lar and the other more moderate WP admins here would weigh in on the prospect of future round-table discussions featuring otherwise adversarial individuals on opposite sides of the table.

Civil dialogue, while perhaps rare and lacking in dramaturgy, may be the saving grace that allows these banal and unbecoming sniping wars to morph into something more constructive and peaceable, such as a Truth and Reconciliation Process.


I would suggest that the good thing about a podcast is that someone like PrivateMusings, who is a trustable sort of character, could call a halt if things got heated, edit out the crap and restart. It could be the rules of engagement. PM entrusted to ensure that nobody is entrapped into a foolish exchange. And if the conversation failed for some reason, PM would know not to publish.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post Sun 6th April 2008, 1:05am
Post #53


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined: Thu 1st Feb 2007, 10:21pm
Member No.: 911



QUOTE(Lar @ Sat 5th April 2008, 9:59am) *

You sounded fairly reasonable in that podcast... (for the most part). However, comments like "Congratulations, dipwads!"give me pause ... I have to wonder how they help anything. Why give the detractors of your message ammo?


Are you kidding, Lar? They LOVE IT when I feed their Hate Quivers with more ammunition! Their sole purpose on Wikipedia is to generate internal and external drama and conflict. I'm just helping my boys out. (Don't worry -- I have a master plan, and they're all part of it. These little shots across the bow are just laying the groundwork.)

What bothers me more, actually, is that you thought my time on the Skypecast was fairly reasonable "for the most part". Which part of my appearance was less than fully reasonable?

QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 4th April 2008, 11:35pm) *

So, can we say we have another innocent user blocked as a sockpuppet? Because I know this HarryPotter editor wasn't me. And Jonny could confirm that it certainly wasn't him.

QUOTE(Lar @ Sat 5th April 2008, 9:59am) *
That struck me as a throwaway sock of someone or another, based on behaviour patterns, with contributions that were disruptive (if amusing), so I'm not seeing unblocking as a good use of anyone's time, really. You knew that already, you just wanted to see if I'd respond this way, right?


"Behaviour"? You live in MICHIGAN, Lar -- what's with the Queen's English?

Anyway, I agree that the user blocked couldn't care less about being blocked -- but why the "sockpuppet" label, if it's more readily apparent that it's a meatpuppet? And, even more importantly -- why pin the "Awbrey" label on an account that isn't anywhere NEAR Jon Awbrey's IP geolocation, nor aligned with Awbrey's more characteristic text-technique modus operandi?

As always on Wikipedia, what we have here is a kid loitering in front of a store that has a "no loitering" sign. The manager calls the cops, and the cops come and haul the kid off to the county jail for a night in a cell, because the owner told the 911 operator that he'd been having some shoplifting problems recently, from kids of a similar age, and the dispatcher and the duty officer conveyed a miscommunication. The kid's parents might be enraged, but the cops will just say, "Look, Mr. and Mrs. Wilkins, we now realize that Martin wasn't accused, per se, of shoplifting, but doesn't he have something better to do after school than to hang out in front of the Quik Chek when there's clearly a 'No Loitering' sign in place? It's too much legal hassle to go back and change the duty officer's report, because Marty's just a minor, and none of this will go on his permanent record, anyway. Please, just go home, and do encourage him to find a different hang-out than Mr. Valakrishna's convenience store."

How do you think Martin will grow up feeling about police and about immigrant store owners? Hopefully, completely respectful of both. But, is there at least SOME chance that the store owner and the police would be partially responsible if Martin grows up to show disrespect to both?

In closing -- how would YOU describe four lonely "Delete" voices among twenty-nine "Keep" votes on an Article for Deletion calling for the removal of a thoughtfully-organized, rational, calm roundtable discussion between banned editors and persons in good standing on Wikipedia? If you can think of a better word than "dipwads", I'll consider it for future discussions! Maybe I should try one of Guy Chapman's or David Gerard's favorite words to call adversaries?

Greg
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
thekohser
post Sun 6th April 2008, 4:59am
Post #54


Member
*********

Group: Regulars
Posts: 10,274
Joined: Thu 1st Feb 2007, 10:21pm
Member No.: 911



This is childish, and I don't feel good about myself for continuing it.

I rather need to come to grips with the fact that Wikipedia's regulatory personnel are peppered with liars and defamers, yet these do not make up the majority of the administrator team, but that the minority's "right" to publish these lies and defamatory statements on the world's seventh-most popular website is mostly condoned by the silent majority of administrators, and that I have no recourse to correct it, except to file an actual lawsuit against those who would defame me.

Given that the defamers are copyediting in Japan, cycling about England, fighting forest fires in Southern California, and living (I presume) in modest conditions near the University of Delaware, any legal pursuit of any one or all of them would quite easily be far more taxing on my wallet and my sanity than the potential benefit that might exist, I have very little choice but to paste a smile on my face, accept this ugly fact about Wikipedia, and merely tell anyone who's interested in listening... my story.

That is my challenge, and I wonder whether my character is capable of sustaining it? To smile. To smile while being defamed.

Gregory Kohs
Cell: 302.463.1354
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Somey
post Sun 6th April 2008, 5:33am
Post #55


Can't actually moderate (or even post)
*********

Group: Moderators
Posts: 11,815
Joined: Sat 17th Jun 2006, 7:47pm
From: Dreamland
Member No.: 275



Well, you can't really expect them to defend their positions with facts, explanations, logical argument, or even references to events that occurred less than two years ago (apparently).

That would be a losing proposition for them, wouldn't it?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
guy
post Sun 6th April 2008, 8:18am
Post #56


Postmaster General
*********

Group: Inactive
Posts: 4,294
Joined: Mon 27th Feb 2006, 8:52pm
From: London
Member No.: 23



QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 6th April 2008, 5:59am) *

Given that the defamers are copyediting in Japan, cycling about England, fighting forest fires in Southern California, and living (I presume) in modest conditions near the University of Delaware

You mean that they're not all living in a very similar way? That must be some cunning ploy.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Somey
post Sun 6th April 2008, 9:12am
Post #57


Can't actually moderate (or even post)
*********

Group: Moderators
Posts: 11,815
Joined: Sat 17th Jun 2006, 7:47pm
From: Dreamland
Member No.: 275



QUOTE(guy @ Sun 6th April 2008, 3:18am) *
That must be some cunning ploy.

Well, at least it's a good way to avoid lawsuits...

I mean, obviously User:Raul654 has never been known as a particularly honest or even sensible person, though I suppose he has a certain talent as a wiki administrator. The fact is, he knows he can say basically whatever he wants on WP and never be challenged. So why even bother, if not for the ego gratification? Better yet, why not just go for it and say, "I, User:Raul654, personally control all aspects of the world's largest and most popular information resource, and can have it and everyone associated with it do my bidding on a mere capricious whim"? If nobody challenges you on Wikipedia itself, then it must be true, right?

From my perspective, it sure looks like Raul accused Greg here of "lying" about whether or not he was the operator of two WP particular accounts, even though he couldn't possibly have been looking over his shoulder watching him create or use the accounts, nor could he have read any sort of admission by Greg to that effect because we know that no such admission exists. What's more, Greg has actually been fairly forthcoming about which accounts are his, when asked, at least after they ban them. So why "lie" about those two specifically? What was so special about them that he would have felt it necessary to "lie" about them after they were already blocked? And why should I even have to explain this? A little Occam's Razor ought to be enough for just about anyone in a case like this.

He also accused me of telling a "bald-faced lie" when I stated that we try to provide a "mostly-uncensored" forum for people who have criticisms of, or problems with, WP - not because we do, in fact, occasionally censor things (we do), but because of an incident that happened over two years ago, before I had even heard of Wikipedia Review, involving User:Grace_Note, whom he refers to as "Dr. Zen" because he knows quite well that Grace Note is one of the most disliked non-banned editors on Wikipedia. I've been told by several people that Grace Note was banned from WR because of his insistence on referring to other forum members as "Nazis" and "holocaust deniers" without the least bit of justification. To call that "censorship" is a bit like saying that people shouldn't have bullets removed from their bodies after they've been shot, because the bullet "serves a real purpose" and "has a right to be there."

Of course, it's been a long time, and Grace Note has apparently (hopefully!) lost interest in WP, not to mention WR-bashing. But just to give you an idea of the kind of guy Raul654 is using as his shining example of a martyred anti-WR-censorship crusader, here's part of an e-mail I received from Grace Note around the time we were floating the idea of redacting SlimVirgin's real name from the website:
QUOTE
Funnily enough, I kick myself at my laziness. I know Wikipedia well enough to own it if I had the time and resources. Give me twenty people, full time, and I would destroy it in a year. Mossad *should* hire me.

Admittedly, Grace Note asked me not to post that. But hey, it was a long time ago, and maybe he was just being coy, anti-censorship crusader that he is... and of course, if he thought I myself was working for the Mossad, he may have just been looking for a better job.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Moulton
post Sun 6th April 2008, 12:35pm
Post #58


Anthropologist from Mars
*********

Group: Contributors
Posts: 10,220
Joined: Mon 29th Oct 2007, 9:56pm
From: Greater Boston
Member No.: 3,670

WP user page - talk
check - contribs



Dr. Zen has been following these dramas for quite some time.

See the comments at the end of this blog post of mine, wherein both Dr. Zen and PrivateMusings append their remarks.

Dr. Zen also posted a concurrent comment on this WR Op-Ed piece from last October. That post includes his byline link back to his own personal blog.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tarantino
post Sun 6th April 2008, 11:38pm
Post #59


the Dude abides
******

Group: Regulars
Posts: 1,440
Joined: Mon 30th Jul 2007, 11:41pm
Member No.: 2,143



QUOTE(jorge @ Fri 4th April 2008, 9:11pm) *

NonVocalScream responded to the sockpuppet claims here- to answer why they seemed so experienced in regards to wikipedia they claimed that they had experience on other projects (how that would make them seeingly completely au fait with every aspect of policy on en.wikipedia I don't know).

When Lawrence Cohen asked if they could point to accounts- NVS stated "Anywhere on any Wikimedia project you see contributions from NonvocalScream "- but Lawrence couldn't find any and neither can I.


I wonder what the deal is with this edit at meta? NonvocalScream requests an account on WMF and on the same edit he makes it appear that Cary Bass recommends it.

QUOTE

=== [[:w:user:NonvocalScream]] ===
+
+
*I would like to render templates for the wikimedia blog RSS on the WMF wiki. I would like to do the upload and rendering of the code in the WMF wiki environment for eventual publication to the WMF wiki. This is in line with some volunteer work I'm doing with ComProj.
+
Email xxx@xxx.xxx
+
+
[[User:NonvocalScream|NonvocalScream]] 23:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
+
:I'm adding a recommendation. NS will be helping out Jay and myself with the blog and he certainly can be trusted to do the work on foundation wiki. [[User:Bastique|Cary Bass]] <sup>[[User talk:Bastique|demandez]]</sup> 23:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Impersonating a Foundation officer should be grounds for an indef block, but later, Anthere approves it.

BTW, I've seen his IRL name, and it appears he has 2 other accounts besides Wordmachine, One is still active, the other last was last used in 2004.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
jorge
post Sun 6th April 2008, 11:58pm
Post #60


Postmaster
*******

Group: On Vacation
Posts: 1,910
Joined: Tue 28th Feb 2006, 11:54am
Member No.: 29



QUOTE(tarantino @ Mon 7th April 2008, 12:38am) *

Impersonating a Foundation officer should be grounds for an indef block, but later, Anthere approves it.

BTW, I've seen his IRL name, and it appears he has 2 other accounts besides Wordmachine, One is still active, the other last was last used in 2004.

Oh look, user Aphaia says thanks to Anthere (Florence Devouard) "for handling that request"- where did Aphaia say anything about this before that? mellow.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

4 Pages V < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

-   Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th 3 17, 3:29pm