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_ The ArbCom-L Leaks _ Poetlister Sept 2008
Posted by: MaliceAforethought
From newyorkbrad at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 02:05:35 2008
From: newyorkbrad at gmail.com (Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia))
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:05:35 -0500
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
Message-ID: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
Those who have been following the saga of Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
probably should take a look at the current thread on AN, and/or the
discussion on Wikipedia Review, if you are not current with
developments......
Newyorkbrad
----------
From paulaugust.wp at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 04:19:11 2008
From: paulaugust.wp at gmail.com (Paul August)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 00:19:11 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
That would be ANI.
pa
On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:05 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote:
> Those who have been following the saga of Poetlister, Taxwoman, et
> al. probably should take a look at the current thread on AN, and/or
> the discussion on Wikipedia Review, if you are not current with
> developments......
>
> Newyorkbrad
----------
From user.jpgordon at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 06:14:52 2008
From: user.jpgordon at gmail.com (Josh Gordon)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 23:14:52 -0700
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
Fascinating.
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Paul August <paulaugust.wp at gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be ANI.
>
> pa
>
> On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:05 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote:
>
> > Those who have been following the saga of Poetlister, Taxwoman, et
> > al. probably should take a look at the current thread on AN, and/or
> > the discussion on Wikipedia Review, if you are not current with
> > developments......
> >
> > Newyorkbrad
----------
From jdforrester at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 07:23:23 2008
From: jdforrester at gmail.com (James Forrester)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 08:23:23 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c0103810809060023v362e1cak581a048fe487283c@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/6 Paul August <paulaugust.wp at gmail.com>:
> On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:05 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote:
>
> > Those who have been following the saga of Poetlister, Taxwoman, et
> > al. probably should take a look at the current thread on AN, and/or
> > the discussion on Wikipedia Review, if you are not current with
> > developments......
>
> That would be ANI.
Eurgh. The best possible way for this to be raised, of course.
Yours,
--
James D. Forrester
jdforrester at wikimedia.org | jdforrester at gmail.com
[[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]]
----------
From mackensen at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 12:04:32 2008
From: mackensen at gmail.com (Charles Fulton)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 08:04:32 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
If memory serves we pressured Wikiquote to ban the lot, to no avail...
On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:14 AM, Josh Gordon <user.jpgordon at gmail.com> wrote:
> Fascinating.
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Paul August <paulaugust.wp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That would be ANI.
>>
>> pa
>>
>> On Sep 5, 2008, at 10:05 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) wrote:
>>
>> > Those who have been following the saga of Poetlister, Taxwoman, et
>> > al. probably should take a look at the current thread on AN, and/or
>> > the discussion on Wikipedia Review, if you are not current with
>> > developments......
>> >
>> > Newyorkbrad
----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 12:53:26 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:53:26 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/6 Charles Fulton <mackensen at gmail.com>:
> If memory serves we pressured Wikiquote to ban the lot, to no avail...
Yes, because all the socks supported strong project independence, so
Cato ended up on checkuser-l.
It'll take a falling anvil from the Foundation.
- d.
----------
From jwales at wikia-inc.com Sun Sep 7 17:33:23 2008
From: jwales at wikia-inc.com (Jimmy Wales)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 13:33:23 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com> <4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com> <99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com> <e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
Is there a discussion now on Wikiquote? Aphaia is over there and seems
supportive of FT2's investigation, I am sure there are other good users
who we can influence.
And our words of wisdom might be persuasive as well.
David Gerard wrote:
> 2008/9/6 Charles Fulton <mackensen at gmail.com>:
>
>> If memory serves we pressured Wikiquote to ban the lot, to no avail...
>
>
> Yes, because all the socks supported strong project independence, so
> Cato ended up on checkuser-l.
>
> It'll take a falling anvil from the Foundation.
>
>
> - d.
>
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 18:13:46 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:13:46 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales at wikia-inc.com> wrote:
> Is there a discussion now on Wikiquote? Aphaia is over there and seems
> supportive of FT2's investigation, I am sure there are other good users
> who we can influence.
>
> And our words of wisdom might be persuasive as well.
>
> Sadly cat's out of the bag. I have done all that can be done, many users
agreed with me, I took chances on credibility and capital to contact several
WR regulars who seem honest enough... to ask simply, don't destroy the guys
life for this, whatever he's done its just a website.
Proabivouac outed him.
In fairness, maybe it would have happened anyway. they had traced the
picutures to real people, some of whom had email, to ask "are these you"...
and "boom".... and one person contacted "his employer and authorities".
Proabivouac phoned him for comment yesterday - nocomment.
The pics are all associated with a transvestite network as well, with the
claim that he was associated with it.
He has a wife, works for the UK civil service, has kids in the 12/13 years
old range, and so to speak fraudulently edited wikipedia. And he's in charge
of sensitive UK govt economic and statistical research.
A top UK tabloid is said to have been approached, and declined the story
only because of lack of a pic of the female victim.
We have done all we can, Jimmy, Cary and Jay have all the information they
need to discuss handling if needed (email and on meta), and we have a very
good case if asked that we (volunteers and office) did damn well in
handling, which needs heavily putting in line #1 if ever needed.
No more to say. I feel sick for the guy and all his family. His kid's Bar
Mitzvah is this weekend, and his faith and membership in the Jewish
community (remember all those "list of X jews" he POV pushed on?) means
everything to him.
We here on this list probably need to carry on (heavy heart, somber) our
work for enwiki, I think. I have still some evidence to sum up for review.
Paul.
-----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 18:51:23 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:51:23 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
[cc to Jimbo, Cary and Jay]
2008/9/7 FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com>:
> Proabivouac outed him.
> In fairness, maybe it would have happened anyway. they had traced the
> picutures to real people, some of whom had email, to ask "are these you"...
> and "boom".... and one person contacted "his employer and authorities".
> Proabivouac phoned him for comment yesterday - nocomment.
> The pics are all associated with a transvestite network as well, with the
> claim that he was associated with it.
> He has a wife, works for the UK civil service, has kids in the 12/13 years
> old range, and so to speak fraudulently edited wikipedia. And he's in charge
> of sensitive UK govt economic and statistical research.
Holy crap!
This would of course be the disastrous collapse of his life we were
trying very hard *not* to have happen.
Unfortunately, in messing with Wikipedia, he could reasonably assume
we weren't going to behave sociopathically. When he started messing WR
around, he was messing around dedicated stalking sociopaths. Bah.
> A top UK tabloid is said to have been approached, and declined the story
> only because of lack of a pic of the female victim.
er, who was that?
> We have done all we can, Jimmy, Cary and Jay have all the information they
> need to discuss handling if needed (email and on meta), and we have a very
> good case if asked that we (volunteers and office) did damn well in
> handling, which needs heavily putting in line #1 if ever needed.
Good.
I've had no calls or emails, by the way.
I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
> No more to say. I feel sick for the guy and all his family. His kid's Bar
> Mitzvah is this weekend, and his faith and membership in the Jewish
> community (remember all those "list of X jews" he POV pushed on?) means
> everything to him.
Yep.
I wonder if he'll actually go away from Wikimedia now.
> We here on this list probably need to carry on (heavy heart, somber) our
> work for enwiki, I think. I have still some evidence to sum up for review.
er, yay.
- d.
----------
From fredbaud at fairpoint.net Sun Sep 7 18:57:07 2008
From: fredbaud at fairpoint.net (Fred Bauder)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:57:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62129.66.243.196.131.1220813827.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net>
I'm not up on the Wikipedia issues, but I did notice he removed his
picture on Wikinfo. (I've never actually had any trouble with him.)
Fred
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 18:59:07 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:59:07 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:51 PM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> [cc to Jimbo, Cary and Jay]
>
>
> > A top UK tabloid is said to have been approached, and declined the story
> > only because of lack of a pic of the female victim.
>
>
> er, who was that?
>
"The Sun"
>
> > We have done all we can, Jimmy, Cary and Jay have all the information
> they
> > need to discuss handling if needed (email and on meta), and we have a
> very
> > good case if asked that we (volunteers and office) did damn well in
> > handling, which needs heavily putting in line #1 if ever needed.
>
>
> Good.
>
> I've had no calls or emails, by the way.
>
> I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
>
I'm thinking this is a VERY good time to give a social email to Brian
Bergstein at AP, and clue him in. It's going to hit and better we brief them
than others do? Or is it? Is it better we respond after? Or post up a press
release? My salary as an arb doesn't cover press work.
> I wonder if he'll actually go away from Wikimedia now.
>
>
> No. When under stress people revert to habit, and a lot of this is probably
his "way to keep sane". Lose himself in wikiprojects. About 20 of them,
under about 20 socks...... maybe illness isn't that far wrong at that.
Paul.
-----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:10:52 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:10:52 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I wonder if he'll actually go away from Wikimedia now.
>
> I should answer that more definitively.
No.
He's currently in denial at wikiquote as we speak, trying to hang on to
editing as Cato and Poetlister and not taking any discussion.
Since he edits on everything from hebrew and arabic wikipedia, to french
wikiquote, to whatever the heck ht: is, on about 20 different projects, and
is an accomplished sock-master with an obsessive personality, it's also more
than likely he has already got other socks/sock rings in place too.
I think I'm going to make one of the harder calls of the last few years, at
some time, here. And someone needs to phone or visit to his wife. Although
not formally "our business", the odds are good she is the only person who
can pull any of this around, if anyone can, and would care to do so. She's a
high level professional too, and probably reading between the lines, a
no-nonsense person. He's going to lie compulsively to her about his
activities here, which will make it worse, and that also would rebound on
us. I'm also expecting an email from his ex boss regarding that
impersonation too.
Paul.
----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:18:18 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:18:18 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809071218v793608e9nfdd0aa7d0d955c5c@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/7 FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com>:
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:51 PM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > A top UK tabloid is said to have been approached, and declined the story
>> > only because of lack of a pic of the female victim.
>> er, who was that?
> "The Sun"
I meant the "female victim".
I can just imagine the hash the Sun would make of this.
>> I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
> I'm thinking this is a VERY good time to give a social email to Brian
> Bergstein at AP, and clue him in. It's going to hit and better we brief them
> than others do? Or is it? Is it better we respond after? Or post up a press
> release? My salary as an arb doesn't cover press work.
Nah. If this sinks and goes away then good. We know from experience
that no-one believes much Cade Metz, Andrew Orlowski or Valleywag say
about us any more. I'd leave this one to Jay to call.
>> I wonder if he'll actually go away from Wikimedia now.
> No. When under stress people revert to habit, and a lot of this is probably
> his "way to keep sane". Lose himself in wikiprojects. About 20 of them,
> under about 20 socks...... maybe illness isn't that far wrong at that.
Yep. *headdesk*
- d.
----------
From stephen.bain at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 00:10:58 2008
From: stephen.bain at gmail.com (Stephen Bain)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:10:58 +1000
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f30e42de0809071710o40ab204btbdebfce1711debdb@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:10 AM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Since he edits on everything from hebrew and arabic wikipedia, to french
> wikiquote, to whatever the heck ht: is, on about 20 different projects
...
Haitian Creole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Creole_language
--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 14:32:01 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:32:01 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809080732t7fe1d9ecm9bb9b22e1c6171b6@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:10 PM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 7:59 PM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if he'll actually go away from Wikimedia now.
>
> I should answer that more definitively.
> No.
> He's currently in denial at wikiquote as we speak, trying to hang on to
> editing as Cato and Poetlister and not taking any discussion.
I'm not surprised he is doing this, but I'm quite surprised that he
still has 3 accounts on Wikiquote, and that they still, as far as I
know, have bureaucrat, checkuser, and administrator status. Is this
going to change soon?
----------
From newyorkbrad at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 19:21:12 2008
From: newyorkbrad at gmail.com (Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia))
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:21:12 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809080732t7fe1d9ecm9bb9b22e1c6171b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071159k382850d2ne0b66163f8be9a5b@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809071210j8e8a1dbr6f3c52c1e05128d9@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809080732t7fe1d9ecm9bb9b22e1c6171b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c52819d30809081221m15ba553cka5282d4c05162e05@mail.gmail.com>
I'm pretty sure he's been removed from Checkuser on WQ, not sure about the
other positions.
Newyorkbrad
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 20:47:59 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:47:59 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] User:Cato
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0804250912u20cb5be6o7e6d0018288ae189@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080425154610.DPBD29112.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<fbad4e140804250847r1d29ff35u55874153cf3f1ebf@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0804250912u20cb5be6o7e6d0018288ae189@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809081347h2dda3aeaq98f94110f9edffde@mail.gmail.com>
And it turns out that Charles and David's suspicions are confirmed.
Good catch, both of you.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:12 PM, FloNight <sydney.poore at gmail.com> wrote:
> Cato = Poetlister. oh my!!
>
> Sydney
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:47 AM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2008/4/25 Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>:
>>
>>
>> > So anyway it was a fishing expedition, and we talked about various things in the way of non-CU evidence. Cato went away I think completely unsatisfied, saying I'd been convincing that P wasn't Runcorn, and hurrah for WikiQuote. Well, I'm not a CheckUser, so that was somewhat pointless. I'm mentioning it because Cato was sounding a bit like P towards the end - all our evidence was rubbish, that kind of thing. Seems to be targeting Dmcdevit. I don't have a very good feeling about that.
>>
>>
>> Yeah. I'm wondering if Cato = Poetlister.
>>
>>
>> - d.
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 19:17:42 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 15:17:42 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Cleaning up from the Poetlister saga
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809091217w5f262far6c58849f4ce70594@mail.gmail.com>
One of the last unfinished pieces of business remaining from the
Poetlister saga is the account of his confederate, the banned editor
Arniep. Arniep has been editing as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gustav_von_Humpelschmumpel
Arniep was banned in November 2006, and he waited until March 2007 to
start editing again, no doubt in order to ensure that the CU database
would no longer contain his data. However, he was unaware that people
had been saving his old e-mails, which revealed his IPs. Arniep's
previous IPs, from those e-mails, included
212.84.99.191
212.84.102.131
212.84.102.218
212.84.102.239
212.84.121.3
His current IPs match those ranges. I've been reluctant to block him,
mostly because I'm tired of all the attention from Wikipedia Review.
Is anyone else willing to take care of this?
Jay
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 19:22:12 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 20:22:12 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Cleaning up from the Poetlister saga
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809091217w5f262far6c58849f4ce70594@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809091217w5f262far6c58849f4ce70594@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809091222v12246871r397ecef09af2201c@mail.gmail.com>
I don't know the history (and dont much need to). Question is, is he/has he
been disruptive this time round? Same patterns (whatever they were)? If
theres a problem pass it my way if needed, I guess, if nobody else will.
I don't know anything of him.
Paul.
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 20:00:19 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 16:00:19 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Cleaning up from the Poetlister saga
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809091222v12246871r397ecef09af2201c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809091217w5f262far6c58849f4ce70594@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809091222v12246871r397ecef09af2201c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809091300h2420f7e7gdfc63e14a82f84a4@mail.gmail.com>
He's a banned editor who is sockpuppeting; I'm not sure what else
would be relevant.
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:22 PM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know the history (and dont much need to). Question is, is he/has he
> been disruptive this time round? Same patterns (whatever they were)? If
> theres a problem pass it my way if needed, I guess, if nobody else will.
>
> I don't know anything of him.
>
> Paul.
---------
From user.jpgordon at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 20:45:59 2008
From: user.jpgordon at gmail.com (Josh Gordon)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:45:59 -0700
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Cleaning up from the Poetlister saga
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809091300h2420f7e7gdfc63e14a82f84a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809091217w5f262far6c58849f4ce70594@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809091222v12246871r397ecef09af2201c@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091300h2420f7e7gdfc63e14a82f84a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99c65f730809091345g4fef4c44jf1394b372fd769e2@mail.gmail.com>
I've blocked him as a confirmed sockpuppet of Arniep.
----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 20:55:51 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 21:55:51 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/7 David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
> I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
I am told by a source I can't name (a good Wikipedian who has a low
regard for Mr Metz) that he has indeed been sniffing around.
Presumably tipped off by whoever tried to take the story to the Sun.
- d.
----------
From: sam.blacketer at googlemail.com (Sam Blacketer)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 21:57:48 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e75b49f70809091357x7547d900o42bc89bbd269389a@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:55 PM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/7 David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
>
> > I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
>
> I am told by a source I can't name (a good Wikipedian who has a low
> regard for Mr Metz) that he has indeed been sniffing around.
> Presumably tipped off by whoever tried to take the story to the Sun.
Proabivouac I shouldn't wonder.
--
Sam Blacketer
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 21:04:00 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 17:04:00 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:55 PM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/9/7 David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
>
>> I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
>
>
> I am told by a source I can't name (a good Wikipedian who has a low
> regard for Mr Metz) that he has indeed been sniffing around.
> Presumably tipped off by whoever tried to take the story to the Sun.
Well, the Metz spin will be whatever makes Wikipedia look the worst...
-----------
From newyorkbrad at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 21:37:04 2008
From: newyorkbrad at gmail.com (Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia))
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 17:37:04 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
I see little or nothing here for which Wikipedia can be blamed. Checkusers
identified abusive socking and blocked the abusers, and the ArbCom desysoped
Runcorn and publicly announced why. A year later we unblocked one and only
one of the accounts, partly in recognition of what seemed like good work
elsewhere and partly so we could have a control if we thought he/she was
socking again. Although I was away at the time, an arbitrator also made a
pretty clear announcement on ANI about the reasons for the unblock and also
why it was limited to just one account. The only thing we can maybe be
faulted for with 20:20 hindsight is not deleting the photographs.
I think most of you know that several different people asked me, around the
time I was elected to the committee, to take a close look at these blocks.
I studied the evidence over a few months and, although I never reached a
final and conclusive judgment of guilt (it just isn't my style to do that),
I certainly realized pretty quickly that the evidence did not point to
innocence. So just this once, at least I wasn't the most credulous one in
the whole place ... I don't think anyone on (or formerly on) the committee
actually wound up believing Poetlister et al.'s account of things.
Newyorkbrad
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 22:28:49 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:28:49 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
<c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809091528q13f5d832r13cbfac09f0635b5@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
<newyorkbrad at gmail.com> wrote:
> I see little or nothing here for which Wikipedia can be blamed.
You aren't Cade Metz, though.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 22:47:12 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:47:12 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
<c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809091547h23fc1363qa775ec9a586544ca@mail.gmail.com>
We can't be blamed for the photos either. That's WR spin.
The user contacted helpdesk in 2006, was told to ask taxwoman directly
(_not_ "laughed at"), did so, and didn't come back to say they needed more
help or no luck.
So the upshot was we had 2 users both claiming the pics were "theirs" or
such, one established and one a fly-by who never did anything more. I;'m not
sure even with hindsight we would or should have deleted on the basis of an
untested claim and no follow-up by the complainant.
Paul.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 22:48:33 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:48:33 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e75b49f70809091357x7547d900o42bc89bbd269389a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com>
<99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<e75b49f70809091357x7547d900o42bc89bbd269389a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809091548n17702386g7a8ef87c5f82f159@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Sam Blacketer
<sam.blacketer at googlemail.com>wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:55 PM, David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 2008/9/7 David Gerard <dgerard at gmail.com>:
>>
>> > I wonder if Cade Metz will take this one on.
>>
>> I am told by a source I can't name (a good Wikipedian who has a low
>> regard for Mr Metz) that he has indeed been sniffing around.
>> Presumably tipped off by whoever tried to take the story to the Sun.
>
>
> Proabivouac I shouldn't wonder.
>
> --
> Sam Blacketer
>
>
Confirmed - Proabivouac. Rumor says tried to get the story in a well known
UK tabloid ("the Sun")
Paul.
----------
From dmcdevit at cox.net Wed Sep 10 00:11:50 2008
From: dmcdevit at cox.net (Dominic)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:11:50 -0700
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e75b49f70809091357x7547d900o42bc89bbd269389a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com> <4E33DA41-35C8-4D31-A541-75B89B2FD043@gmail.com> <99c65f730809052314s1e04942cscd9ecfcd9df5fb8c@mail.gmail.com> <e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com> <fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com> <48C41063.8090708@wikia.com> <e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com> <fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com> <fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<e75b49f70809091357x7547d900o42bc89bbd269389a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48C710C6.7010407@cox.net>
Sam Blacketer wrote:
>
> Proabivouac I shouldn't wonder.
To me, the most shocking thing about this thread is being reminded this
troll is still allowed within a mile's radius of Wikipedia. I think
we're doing something wrong if he is still being accommodated.
Dominic
----------
From charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 10 10:17:03 2008
From: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com (Charles Matthews)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:17:03 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
Message-ID: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Newyorkbrad wrote:
> I see little or nothing here for which Wikipedia can be blamed.
Wikipedia gets blamed all the time, by people who like that kind of thing. The appropriate attitude (internally) would seem to be to take this as a "case study" for socking. We could be blamed if we don't learn something here. It has all gone on for nearly three years, and the site has changed greatly, too.
<snip>
> So just this once, at least I wasn't the most credulous one in
> the whole place ... I don't think anyone on (or formerly on) the committee
> actually wound up believing Poetlister et al.'s account of things.
I don't know whether it's worth chewing over the whole thing once more. Several things strike me:
- The ArbCom has (roughly) gone with the evidence and where it leads, and has also used its discretion to block and unblock. Most other people commentating or involved have had less to go on, and/or have decided about PL according to their general views. We certainly come out better on this score.
- The profile we had was good, but 20 years too young.
- The particular style of "muddying the waters" used by PL to persuade others of the injustice is probably something to point out, if we are asked for a view by people handling PR on this. It was exactly tuned to what some critics wanted to hear.
- Wikipedia Review loses out big time in terms of its reputation for judgement of character (and anything else, really).
- PL is a manipulative SOB, the like of whom we haven't knowingly encountered (even more so than Brandt, I think, who is ultimately a conviction kook); and this looks like a very messy midlife crisis going on over numerous websites.
This wouldn't be a case from which to draw broad social conclusions. Obviously the sockmaster was equipped to make one very good Wikipedian, rather than a dozen socks.
By the way, did we ever sort out whether PL was also Henrygb? It looks more likely than not, now.
Charles
-----------
From stephen.bain at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 10:25:46 2008
From: stephen.bain at gmail.com (Stephen Bain)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:25:46 +1100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809091528q13f5d832r13cbfac09f0635b5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809051905k1575cd4cxb940b06c71bc6575@mail.gmail.com>
<e8c618c80809060504h1938334du39bd38a437fd216e@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809060553v467f1feevc1d177741aa2a6e6@mail.gmail.com>
<48C41063.8090708@wikia.com>
<e71d9fab0809071113x72cfa853s6534bedf9e571822@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809071151r4ffb48dar6e7ff293954ed732@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809091355w11567c6bm6d0a05096749591c@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091404g29bdb274r6c18019c48439710@mail.gmail.com>
<c52819d30809091437i3443cd0eu1cfae6c24efec982@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809091528q13f5d832r13cbfac09f0635b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f30e42de0809100325r123b3aa3pa1abf5f0ee5fa0e6@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:28 AM, jayjg <jayjg99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia)
> <newyorkbrad at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I see little or nothing here for which Wikipedia can be blamed.
>
> You aren't Cade Metz, though.
Not blame for anything done, but blame for something omitted,
probably. Or blame for being in a position in which advantage could be
taken of us (a la Essjay).
--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 10:26:58 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:26:58 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809100326u4a1b0db5u78f571d3057316cf@mail.gmail.com>
At the risk of mentioning a name I seem to mention far too often -- the only
one in the same class as poet is HeadleyDown, who could also pull this off
and would do so. And is more malevolent, would do it to be harmful.
Who is also posting on the WR page related to the case and very likely
learningfrom it, unfortunately.
Urgh.......
Paul.
----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 10:29:12 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:29:12 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809100329x25d0f5f3m81796297549c9388@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/10 Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>:
> By the way, did we ever sort out whether PL was also Henrygb? It looks more likely than not, now.
Really? I wasn't aware of that one. I was one of the checkusers who
busted Henrygb, and as I recall (it was a while ago) I spotted only a
few socks. Was Henrygb's behaviour in accordance with Poetlister's
obsessions (particularly Jewish culture and advocacy)?
- d.
----------
From charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 10 11:19:26 2008
From: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com (Charles Matthews)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:19:26 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
Message-ID: <20080910111926.LDMI19289.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
David Gerard wrote
> > By the way, did we ever sort out whether PL was also Henrygb? It looks more likely than not, now.
> Really? I wasn't aware of that one. I was one of the checkusers who
> busted Henrygb, and as I recall (it was a while ago) I spotted only a
> few socks. Was Henrygb's behaviour in accordance with Poetlister's
> obsessions (particularly Jewish culture and advocacy)?
Statistician/mathematician, apparently a Londoner, is what now catches my eye. A connection was suggested at the time (mid-2007) of the block.
Charles
----------
From sam.blacketer at googlemail.com Wed Sep 10 11:33:19 2008
From: sam.blacketer at googlemail.com (Sam Blacketer)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:33:19 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <20080910111926.LDMI19289.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
References: <20080910111926.LDMI19289.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <e75b49f70809100433i64b078adx751f886896dc0920@mail.gmail.com>
On 9/10/08, Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
> Statistician/mathematician, apparently a Londoner, is what now catches my
> eye. A connection was suggested at the time (mid-2007) of the block.
>
On the duck test, it's quacking. Several connections including interest in
London postcodes, British communists (cf 'Uncle Sid'), statistics.
--
Sam Blacketer
----------
From charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 10 12:01:16 2008
From: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com (Charles Matthews)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:01:16 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
Message-ID: <20080910120116.OGGI29597.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
"Sam Blacketer" wrote
> On the duck test, it's quacking. Several connections including interest in
> London postcodes, British communists (cf 'Uncle Sid'), statistics.
Henrygb knows the word "degressive" (more than I did), added to [[Euro-English]]. Not many occurrences on the site (we can discount David Monniaux!).
The odd thing about the block was that he (an admin) just went away with hardly a word.
Charles
----------
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:09:20 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Charles Matthews
<charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> - Wikipedia Review loses out big time in terms of its reputation for judgement of character (and anything else, really).
Not according to them.
----------
From smoddy at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:15:07 2008
From: smoddy at gmail.com (Sam Korn)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:15:07 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cbffa3750809100715j4c43ba07lfd1ed22b4263d454@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 3:09 PM, jayjg <jayjg99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Charles Matthews
> <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> - Wikipedia Review loses out big time in terms of its reputation for judgement of character (and anything else, really).
>
> Not according to them.
Recognising the difference between reality and make-believe has never
been WR's strongpoint, though...
Hopefully, as Charles says, other people will realise this. I don't
care what trolls think, but I am concerned if useful people think they
are right. This whole affair will hopefully address this.
--
Sam
-----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:18:34 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:18:34 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <cbffa3750809100715j4c43ba07lfd1ed22b4263d454@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
<cbffa3750809100715j4c43ba07lfd1ed22b4263d454@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809100718v1b027e53h3d94cfc1406d51cf@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Sam Korn <smoddy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 3:09 PM, jayjg <jayjg99 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Charles Matthews
>> <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> - Wikipedia Review loses out big time in terms of its reputation for judgement of character (and anything else, really).
>>
>> Not according to them.
>
> Recognising the difference between reality and make-believe has never
> been WR's strongpoint, though...
>
> Hopefully, as Charles says, other people will realise this. I don't
> care what trolls think, but I am concerned if useful people think they
> are right. This whole affair will hopefully address this.
Well, it may be pointless to bring this up again, but I would have
hoped that this would be one more indication that respected WP members
should not give them credibility by posting there and engaging in
dialog with them. It's a real feather in their cap that they can claim
that two sitting ArbCom members regularly post there, not to mention a
couple of friendly CUs.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:25:17 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:25:17 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809100718v1b027e53h3d94cfc1406d51cf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
<cbffa3750809100715j4c43ba07lfd1ed22b4263d454@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809100718v1b027e53h3d94cfc1406d51cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809100725u44dfacb9qb249f51d170c6c6c@mail.gmail.com>
Its actually likely to work well both ways. Voices of sanity usually do.
This way some more extreme rumors can be quashed. If that leads in turn to
WR becoming less insane on the whole, that also feeds back into wiki
projects as less drama and less disruption too.
It seems worthwhile, and we'll see what happens. Right now with Poet going
on, I need to be able to comment there just because that's where the drama
would gain force, if it was tried again.
Paul.
-----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:33:51 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:33:51 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809100725u44dfacb9qb249f51d170c6c6c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080910101703.GNHX18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<6a8d9d700809100709uf29c782l15f9550bb9e9898b@mail.gmail.com>
<cbffa3750809100715j4c43ba07lfd1ed22b4263d454@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809100718v1b027e53h3d94cfc1406d51cf@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809100725u44dfacb9qb249f51d170c6c6c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809100733jff3cceaxf4864c07ac54aa91@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/10 FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com>:
> Its actually likely to work well both ways. Voices of sanity usually do.
> This way some more extreme rumors can be quashed. If that leads in turn to
> WR becoming less insane on the whole, that also feeds back into wiki
> projects as less drama and less disruption too.
> It seems worthwhile, and we'll see what happens. Right now with Poet going
> on, I need to be able to comment there just because that's where the drama
> would gain force, if it was tried again.
"Good luck with that. Let us know how it works out for you." ;-p
(I have no plans to look at WR and see - every time I look at WR, I
feel stupider.)
- d.
------------
From charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 10 14:34:24 2008
From: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com (Charles Matthews)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:34:24 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
Message-ID: <20080910143424.JYCN18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
jayjg wrote
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Charles Matthews
> <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > - Wikipedia Review loses out big time in terms of its reputation for judgement of character (and anything else, really).
>
> Not according to them.
A certain amount of cringing going on over there, in anticipation of Encyclopedia Dramatica writing it all up. In any case Somey (who, although I wouldn't trust him far, exhibits humanoid traits) seems to feel penitent.
Charles
-----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:38:53 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:38:53 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <20080910143424.JYCN18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
References: <20080910143424.JYCN18637.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809100738l8df945ej5b51ed8a58f32a8b@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/10 Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com>:
> A certain amount of cringing going on over there, in anticipation of Encyclopedia Dramatica writing it all up. In any case Somey (who, although I wouldn't trust him far, exhibits humanoid traits) seems to feel penitent.
Somey strikes me as a bit of a nutter, with a lot of assumption of bad
faith, but a reasonably pleasant non-vicious nutter.
(I know him as Some User on Uncyclopedia, and thought he was Lir for a
while, but others disagree and I must say that he's much less of a
nutter than Lir was the latter's last go-round on Wikipedia. On
Uncyclopedia I thought he was a fantastic writer, but his nutter
tendencies really pissed off a lot of people. He thinks I'm out to get
him, for no reason I can understand - I'd always been one of his
greatest fans on Uncyc. A very good and funny writer - I was really
hoping that if he was Lir he'd found a wiki he could be productive
on.)
- d.
----------
From newyorkbrad at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 15:00:20 2008
From: newyorkbrad at gmail.com (Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia))
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:00:20 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Henrygb, was Re: Re: Poetlister, Taxwoman, et al.
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809100740o1536d9e2qfa588577a78ff1ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080910124825.OXQM29597.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
<6a8d9d700809100704y5e3d38b9v83afe5cdef62e051@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809100740o1536d9e2qfa588577a78ff1ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c52819d30809100800g18c787c8i66bbeb2350
Posted by: MaliceAforethought
From morven at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 06:19:08 2008
From: morven at gmail.com (Matthew Brown)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:19:08 -0700
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Aphaia on Wikiquote
In-Reply-To: <99c65f730809102315n2598241dr2bb3e43ac9a8e886@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809102304g72252c9esaab42f62c85c0d9d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809102306h14ecc7f3r6c1bca9f4a590d9b@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809102315n2598241dr2bb3e43ac9a8e886@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Josh Gordon <user.jpgordon at gmail.com> wrote:
> I really hope there's a serious language problem going on here, because it
> sounds like Aphaia is losing it.
Although I can wholly understand Aphaia encountering idiot
human-rulesbots when trying to get the right thing done on en.wp. So
the offense might be genuine - doesn't make the tit-for-tatting right,
though.
I also suspect that a good deal of this is the issue we often have;
admins on other projects resent en.wp for being the 800lb gorilla in
the room that always gets what it wants. I suspect this has been part
and parcel of en.wq's acceptance of Poetlister from the start.
-Matt
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 06:29:22 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:29:22 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Aphaia on Wikiquote
In-Reply-To: <42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809102304g72252c9esaab42f62c85c0d9d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809102306h14ecc7f3r6c1bca9f4a590d9b@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809102315n2598241dr2bb3e43ac9a8e886@mail.gmail.com>
<42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809102329n53bef06ejd642fdd7321b01b3@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:19 AM, Matthew Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Josh Gordon <user.jpgordon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I really hope there's a serious language problem going on here, because it
>> sounds like Aphaia is losing it.
>
> Although I can wholly understand Aphaia encountering idiot
> human-rulesbots when trying to get the right thing done on en.wp. So
> the offense might be genuine - doesn't make the tit-for-tatting right,
> though.
>
> I also suspect that a good deal of this is the issue we often have;
> admins on other projects resent en.wp for being the 800lb gorilla in
> the room that always gets what it wants. I suspect this has been part
> and parcel of en.wq's acceptance of Poetlister from the start.
>
> -Matt
It's not just that; she's getting revenge on en.wp because,
apparently, some en.wp bureaucrat or steward didn't rename and account
she wanted renamed, and she's accusing me of rape. See
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/User_talk:Jayjg#Changing_username
----------
From stephen.bain at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 06:39:43 2008
From: stephen.bain at gmail.com (Stephen Bain)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:39:43 +1000
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Aphaia on Wikiquote
In-Reply-To: <42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809102304g72252c9esaab42f62c85c0d9d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809102306h14ecc7f3r6c1bca9f4a590d9b@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809102315n2598241dr2bb3e43ac9a8e886@mail.gmail.com>
<42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f30e42de0809102339h541b9eafn2209eb6e27c70cf8@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Although I can wholly understand Aphaia encountering idiot
> human-rulesbots when trying to get the right thing done on en.wp. So
> the offense might be genuine - doesn't make the tit-for-tatting right,
> though.
I looked through the usurpation request archives and I can't see
requests made by Aphaia. Does anyone know what account she's referring
to?
--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain at gmail.com
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 06:49:27 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:49:27 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Aphaia on Wikiquote
In-Reply-To: <f30e42de0809102339h541b9eafn2209eb6e27c70cf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a8d9d700809102304g72252c9esaab42f62c85c0d9d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809102306h14ecc7f3r6c1bca9f4a590d9b@mail.gmail.com>
<99c65f730809102315n2598241dr2bb3e43ac9a8e886@mail.gmail.com>
<42f90dc00809102319r6f68d3b0k52b75d87382ee4e0@mail.gmail.com>
<f30e42de0809102339h541b9eafn2209eb6e27c70cf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809102349i6a01bea4h7568880e765714e6@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:39 AM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Matthew Brown <morven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Although I can wholly understand Aphaia encountering idiot
>> human-rulesbots when trying to get the right thing done on en.wp. So
>> the offense might be genuine - doesn't make the tit-for-tatting right,
>> though.
>
> I looked through the usurpation request archives and I can't see
> requests made by Aphaia. Does anyone know what account she's referring
> to?
>
No idea, and every time I asked her, she said I was raping her again.
-----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 09:25:47 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:25:47 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Email to Poetlister / Cato
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809130225k15ec75ccjb0ca613ea5eda35b@mail.gmail.com>
For information:
I have sent an email to Poetlister / Cato. It is hard hitting, and doesn't
give much slack. It's CC'ed to cary, who has known in advance the style I
plan to write in. If anyone gets a message about it, or needs to discuss,
please do so 
Paul.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 15:02:33 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:02:33 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Pending cases
In-Reply-To: <f30e42de0809140728kc8f07faq377ae964b27c6a70@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c52819d30809121644m41e07f6ag5c19b8702ba37ab2@mail.gmail.com>
<f30e42de0809130430i43804522vce3a239fdb54af5f@mail.gmail.com>
<f30e42de0809140728kc8f07faq377ae964b27c6a70@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809140802n7c6747e5y1b478ff3a91fa759@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com>wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Matthew voted while I was in the middle of doing so, and now I have
> > voted too. Many of the proposals now have the requisite number of
> > votes to pass.
>
> We're almost ready for a motion to close now.
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> stephen.bain at gmail.com
>
The Poetlister case is now reducing its all-encompassing drain on my
wiki-time, and the new computer parts finally do seem usable (!!! only took
2 months!) so I'll be back in the loop on RFAR cases etc imminently. Sorry
for the absence on that area, Stephen.
Mental image: -
* Returns to falcon nest with shreds of Poet sock admission gripped in
talons
I still like dealing with messy cases.....
Ahem. So anyhow. Sorry to be that way but it's been 3 solid months of stress
what with computer and managing the Poet case, and I'm only just now feel
that the insane attention to the case and its management is paying off. So a
lot of relief. I think this has been an important week for any here or in
the communities who had entertained lingering doubts.
On an aside, worth noting: some on WR have openly traced a lot of WR/WP
hostility to Poetlister gaming behind the scenes too, so they are also
trying to figure out how much of their antipathy is simply Poet's games, and
where they slipped up as well. If so, that'd be a nice bonus. There will
always be some who hate WP, but their voices have less traction in current
discussions.........
Paul.
-----------
From sam.blacketer at googlemail.com Sun Sep 14 23:11:23 2008
From: sam.blacketer at googlemail.com (Sam Blacketer)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:11:23 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Partial admission of socks
In-Reply-To: <48CD1BEB.5080402@wikia.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809131805r60848dc7j432740b3bc589217@mail.gmail.com>
<48CD1BEB.5080402@wikia.com>
Message-ID: <e75b49f70809141611k49b989cr7537c3ac628543d@mail.gmail.com>
For information, Quillercouch (ie Poetlister) has this evening himself
renamed the en-wikiquote impostor Crum375 account:
http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=Quillercouch&page=User%3ACrum375&year=&month=-1
--
Sam Blacketer
-----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 23:41:11 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:41:11 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Fwd: From Poetlister, for information
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809141641n14b4cbf7sbd48b7a96940bf87@mail.gmail.com>
First of his apology letters., to the most prominent victim, the one whose
photos he used for Taxwoman on multiple sites titled "I like bondage" etc.
Forwarded exactly as I received it. "RachelBrown" was the alias used, Jodie
is the manager of the Boudoir dressing service where he encountered "Nas"
(the beautician in the photos) and where he took the images from.
FT2
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rachel Brown <mmtc151 at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:12 AM
Subject: To Nas c/o Jodie
To: Jodie <info at theboudoironline.com>
Cc: anticabal at gmail.com, ft2.wiki at gmail.com, lar at miltontrainworks.com
Dear Nas
Please may I totally apologise to you most sincerely and humbly for whatever
hurt, distress or embarrassment I have ever caused you, and beg your pardon.
Do believe me when I say that I have never ever had the slightest wicked or
malicious intent towards you. I did not use your real name or any fact
about you. I know that I may have been incredibly thoughtless and stupid,
but not malicious. It may sound utterly ridiculous to you, but I used your
photos precisely because I admire you and thought (and think) that you are
an exceptionally attractive lady. Your photos have attracted many honest
and sincere compliments.
I have done my level best to undo whatever I have done, by deleting
everything or asking for it to be deleted. Whatever more can be done to
help, I am happy to try to do.
I would be more than happy to meet you in person so that I may make a deep
and grovelling apology to you face to face. If you do not want to do this,
I would fully understand and would not blame you.
I do not know if you can ever find it in your heart to forgive my stupidity.
As you may know, I am being punished for it at many levels. I am currently
suspended from work and may lose my job; even if I keep it, I now have an
awesome black mark on my record. I have been condemned vociferously and at
great length across the Internet. I do hope that knowing that I have had
this punishment will give you some comfort and alleviate whatever I have
done to you. If you cannot forgive me, I do hope that things will go no
further to avoid distressing my family, who are totally innocent.
Once again, humble apologies.
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 23:47:26 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:47:26 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Partial admission of socks
In-Reply-To: <e75b49f70809141611k49b989cr7537c3ac628543d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809131805r60848dc7j432740b3bc589217@mail.gmail.com>
<48CD1BEB.5080402@wikia.com>
<e75b49f70809141611k49b989cr7537c3ac628543d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809141647h3947bd86id4e2eba6d89d44ce@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Sam Blacketer
<sam.blacketer at googlemail.com> wrote:
> For information, Quillercouch (ie Poetlister) has this evening himself
> renamed the en-wikiquote impostor Crum375 account:
> http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=Quillercouch&page=User%3ACrum375&year=&month=-1
>
> --
> Sam Blacketer
I'm not sure what's worse; the fact that Aphaia hysterically refused
to do so herself, or the fact that Poetlister/Quillercouch is still a
bureaucrat and able to rename accounts.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 00:31:08 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:31:08 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Partial admission of socks
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809141647h3947bd86id4e2eba6d89d44ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809131805r60848dc7j432740b3bc589217@mail.gmail.com>
<48CD1BEB.5080402@wikia.com>
<e75b49f70809141611k49b989cr7537c3ac628543d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809141647h3947bd86id4e2eba6d89d44ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809141731q1c1bba25x6e5ad2c531a448bf@mail.gmail.com>
Aphaia's away and mostly out of touch today, she said, back mon/tues.
Although I got a brief email from an internet cafe...
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:47 AM, jayjg <jayjg99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Sam Blacketer
> <sam.blacketer at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > For information, Quillercouch (ie Poetlister) has this evening himself
> > renamed the en-wikiquote impostor Crum375 account:
> >
> http://en.wikiquote.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=renameuser&user=Quillercouch&page=User%3ACrum375&year=&month=-1
> >
> > --
> > Sam Blacketer
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 00:36:51 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:36:51 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Partial admission of socks
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809141731q1c1bba25x6e5ad2c531a448bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809131805r60848dc7j432740b3bc589217@mail.gmail.com>
<48CD1BEB.5080402@wikia.com>
<e75b49f70809141611k49b989cr7537c3ac628543d@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809141647h3947bd86id4e2eba6d89d44ce@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809141731q1c1bba25x6e5ad2c531a448bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809141736s4911e6e6k34a53e44f8027aa@mail.gmail.com>
Yes, an extremely convenient Leave of Absence.
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:31 PM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Aphaia's away and mostly out of touch today, she said, back mon/tues.
> Although I got a brief email from an internet cafe...
----------
From charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 15 10:59:47 2008
From: charles.r.matthews at ntlworld.com (Charles Matthews)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:59:47 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Partial admission of socks
Message-ID: <20080915105947.WAHT19289.aamtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
This is clearly a situation that's moving rapidly. Perhaps we should think what our specific ArbCom role is here.
We aren't the WMF, and while the Wikiquote situation is of major interest, it isn't our baby.
There is a list of enWP socks posted. Allegedly complete, but generated by a pathological liar. We are lacking things like:
- When did he (Baxter) first edit enWP?
- Specific denial that he was Henrygb would move something forward. (See Note.)
- Was he ArmedBlowfish's stalker? (The scenario of that is highly compatible with the more lurid side of what has come out so far, and if it wasn't him, it was some other creepy person.)
Charles
Note: Henrygb seems to have edited articles in common with
Poetlister (now Quillercouch) 8 including [[List of Jews]], [[List of British Jews]]
Newport 8
RachelBrown 28
Taxwoman 2 (bondage-related)
Londoneye 3
Brownlee 4
Runcorn 21
Which is something of a cluster
----------
From szvest at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 12:36:45 2008
From: szvest at gmail.com (Fayssal F.)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:36:45 +0000
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Checkuser appointments
In-Reply-To: <2a8c5680809170519s4a2d17dbk6727d8838bd28aad@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a8c5680809170519s4a2d17dbk6727d8838bd28aad@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a8c5680809170536v1a58d4a5n7ca2058e69ee1c42@mail.gmail.com>
I've just got a clarification from FT2 regarding Krimpet's role in the
Poetlister case and how Brandt outed her on his hivemind.
Well, my comment referred to the fact that we do not need more drama but I
think, based on FT2 clarification, that she can be more helpful than I had
thought.
Fayssal F.
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Fayssal F. <szvest at gmail.com> wrote:
> They all seem good except Krimpet. Not for anything but for the Daniel
> Brandt story.
>
> Carcharoth anyone?
>
> Fayssal F.
Posted by: MaliceAforethought
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 13:23:34 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:23:34 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
(Copied to arbcom-l which includes FloNight, Jpgordon, David Gerard, and
Jimmy)
-------
I have had a couple more emails with Poetlister and need to now say where
it's at and sum it up. This is roughly where I find myself with it, and I'd
like to consult briefly.
=== Recent context ===
MB (the user behind the Poetlister/Cato/Runcorn sock ring) has been
profoundly deceptive for his entire wiki career. He has also been
unscrupulous as to whose reputation is damaged, so long as his own facades
are successful. Since being identified 2 weeks ago, his first actions were
denial, and then to try and "game" those involved. To Jayvdb on Wikisource,
who is easygoing and has no prior issue, he played upon the fact he wasn't
really harmful, that he really loved editing, and would behave (as claimed
before). To Aphaia, who had prior suspicion of enwiki due to various bad
history, and had been a past supporter of his, he tried to play the other
game - this is just enwiki trying to harm him, there is no proof, the person
doing it on enwiki is biased, etc.
MB didn't realize all three of us were sharing information this time, and so
we spotted these games and each of us handled them.
For my part I had told Cary, Jimmy and others I would come down hard on
MB/Poet since nothing else was likely to prevent the arrogant belief he
could freely just bush it off and start again next time (which would be even
less likely to detect, we only found this one by a user tip-off and Cato
using the same proxy as another sock, he learns quickly and is a good
tactician). His handling the last 2 weeks make me more sure this would be
his approach.
Now that the sock ring is out and admitted on wiki, and not in doubt (
http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Wikisource:Scriptorium&diff=770942&oldid=770908),
I can say that I came down on him like an anvil, and about as hard and
forcibly as I could do it while still being fair if publicized and legal if
challenged. Very unlike my usual style. My email to him was reviewed by
several people before sending (sam korn called it "scary" which was about
the effect I was after given MB's personality which has a strong pivot on
themes of fear, dominance, control, submission). I copied for the record to
Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher at the
time I sent it.
I would have, and still will, investigate the avenues I told him I would, if
I ever need to re-open the inquiry or he repeats. But if it doesn't happen
again, then I'm not his executioner. It's enough for me if the belief that
he can abuse and fool others with impunity is shattered, and he is left with
fear that doing so will not work out well for him -- because frankly I doubt
much else will motivate him to not repeat.
=== Real life and off-site matters ===
Off site, MB has real problems. The partner of the girl used for one of his
personas' pictures (Chris Selwood) was contacted bysome WR users. He was
told that Taxwoman" was MB.
We also knew that MB had impersonated or used the names of his boss, his
ex-boss, a female businesswoman, at least one or two co-workers, his 12 year
old son, and possibly his wife (unconfirmed).
Chris Selwood contacted MB's workplace (the UK department of health), a
lawyer, and the police. MB has been suspended pending internal
investigation, the lawyer is preparing a defamation case, and the police may
investigate MB as well for identity related issues.The investigator at the
Department of Health is a highly placed lady (she has an OBE for those who
know govt awards) and she confirmed the investigation. She said it will not
be public, it's strictly employer-employee. But this confirms Chris
Selwood's story and MB's claim to be suspended. It appears that for the
first time he's genuinely told the truth.
MB is married with two children, age about 10 and 13 according to sources,
and a respectful position in his local UK Jewish community. All of this is
at risk.
Part of my requirement of MB to close the case, enforced by a serious sized
anvil, was confirmation of all socks, non-abuse in future, and apologies to
those hurt by it. I don't know if this person feels (or is capable of)
remorse, but this is the next best, a hard reminder not to do this. Prior to
the deadline I gave him, he admitted the socks on Wikisource, and emailed an
apology to two of the victims, and gave such information as he could on the
origins of the other photos. There is a chance he's genuine; equallly there
is a good chance its just "what has to be done" by an intelligent
manipulative man who doesn't have much conscience. The socks he named were
all ones he knew we knew about. He added one more obscure sock only when
someone asked about it, saying he had "forgotten" it (possible but noted),
and denied 2-3 others I later asked about. We'll see.
=== Where it's at for wiki projects ===
We have probably done all we can in a practical sense. The matter was
handled so as to prevent the "OMG ROGUE CHECKUSER/OTRS HAZ ALL OUR INFO"
issue, and succeeded in that -- even Cade Metz has skipped that issue in his
register article. The Poetlister/Runcorn ring is proven and self confessed.
The continuance of any user rights on any project, or editing access, is up
to that project of course, all information needed for the decision is "out
there" and my role's mostly done -- to crack the deception in a safe manner,
so others could make decisions for the projects they care about.
(It's probably also a good time to say thanks for patience, trust, and
help.)
MB responded to events by compulsively trying to hide evidence (on wiki and
on other sites such as wipipedia), un-SUL, deny, game, play admins against
each other, and avoid. Other things being equal, there is a very high chance
he'll repeat. He doesn't have much respect for others compared to himself,
it seems, and is addicted to whatever it gives him. On the other hand we
have something others don't -- if he does ever get caught again, he knows
where I will first (legitimately and reasonably) investigate if suspicion
arises again -- which WR never noticed, and he can't afford for one place he
edited from to be brought into the frame of a deception/socking
investigation. That would be melt-down if nothing else was.
I have been asked by (I think) FloNight and others what more will be said
and done, to allow decisions to be made on MB's participation in
projects.This email sums up where I think it's at, and there might need to
be discussion. MB added some exceptional content. He also was addicted, used
the site for his own agendas, and in doing so contaminated many matters by
abuse and maniipulation. he damaged the reputations and tried to stack RFAs
in large volume (40-60 RFAs, similar number of AFDs). Some on WR have traced
a large part of the hostility that emerged between WR and WMF projects,
directly to MB and his activities. He did a lot of harm as well as the good.
I have summed it up here:
<
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Requests_for_comments/Poetlister_and_Cato#Conduct_as_administrator_and_editor>
He is active on many projects, under many names. His activities cover
everything from Arabic wikipedia to Finnish wiktionary, so to speak.
(Partial list:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steward_requests/SUL_requests&oldid=1171698#User:Poetlister).
A huge number of CU runs are needed to be sure his activities are
"identified", to the extent that I may need Cary to authorize a truly
remarkable step of doing it via devs and database query, rather than via the
checkuser interface -- some 20 accounts and dozens of IPs on at least 20
projects plus follow-up.
Failing which Lar has offered to help do it manually, which is very
appreciated.
FloNight proposed on wikiquote that a long break is needed for smaller
projects to get stable and reappoint new admins without his involvement.
That was I think, a good idea. Beyond that I'm open to questions and -- I'm
mostly done save the final CU/sock check work mentioned.
Is anything else needed here, or are we done and able to move on?
FT2
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 13:32:45 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:32:45 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809200632k4faa7c08v39040fb4140965d5@mail.gmail.com>
I would just like to add, this is the first time I have emailed both english
wikipedia Arbcom and Aphaia, on the same email on this. There is some issues
there, too bad. This should only be about handling of MB now it's out, and
enwiki might be where MB started, but English Wikiquote took by far the very
biggest "hurt" from it. They have been savaged by the matter, and need help
and support, and good insight into MB. Right in the middle of the case they
also got a post on meta about shutting the project. Despite this Aphaia has
been of complete help in sorting this out, with advice, and with teamwork.
So there are "issues" and personality stuff. But please, not here
In this investigation Aphaia has been one of the best helps and given
complete trust despite the past. Without her help as part of the core "team"
on this, it would not have been nearly as possible for any of us to protect
all kinds of aspects of the project
This shouldn't need saying, but "just in case" as many on enwiki won't know
this... I hope it's okay to.
Thanks
FT2
-----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 14:22:07 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:22:07 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/20 FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com>:
> ), I can say that I came down on him like an anvil, and about as hard and
> forcibly as I could do it while still being fair if publicized and legal if
> challenged. Very unlike my usual style. My email to him was reviewed by
> several people before sending (sam korn called it "scary" which was about
> the effect I was after given MB's personality which has a strong pivot on
> themes of fear, dominance, control, submission). I copied for the record to
> Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher at the
> time I sent it.
By the way, FT2 has been consulting me for advice on this whole thing
- some running ideas past, but mostly advice on how to deal with this
honourably and in an ethical and thoroughly white-hat way.
The biggest problem was just before FT2 emailed Poetlister the "anvil"
email - we knew so much about Poetlister that we realised this could
destroy his life, and were at a loss for what to do that would stop
him being a jerk here but wouldn't destroy him!
We were in something of a race against time - Poetlister had pissed
off WR, and there are some rather unbalanced people there who *would*
destroy Poetlister's life as revenge - and the only thing stopping
them was that they hadn't found and correlated public information that
FT2 had. Hopefully the sociopathic nutter element at WR can be held
off or distracted.
I concur that he'll be back, with ever better schemes of concealment.
It's pretty much impossible to keep someone from editing Wikipedia if
they really want to. But we'll be watching the favoured areas of
influence rather closely.
- d.
------------
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:20:42 2008
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:20:42 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200632k4faa7c08v39040fb4140965d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200632k4faa7c08v39040fb4140965d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0809200820r6638bce0wd92d9e015ccd166b@mail.gmail.com>
Thanks for the giving us all this follow up information. This
information is helpful.
As I noted on Wikisource, this investigation showed that crosswiki
collaboration is essential when dealing with these type of issues.
Perhaps we need to establish some factual "talking points" that we can
repeat to the different communities as needed.
It is clear to me that MB was able to succeed in his deception because
he manipulated WMFoundation project weaknesses.
One of the weakness is poor communication between projects.
As David points out in his reply, another weakness is our technical
inability to stop a person from editing.
Also MB is aware of common wiki ethos, especially "the autonomy of
individual projects" and that "any users who can make good
contribution is welcome", and uses them to his advantage.
These points, as well as the moral and legal issues, need to be
considered as we make our decisions and recommendations.
Sydney
-----------
From lar at miltontrainworks.com Sat Sep 20 15:32:54 2008
From: lar at miltontrainworks.com (Larry Pieniazek)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:32:54 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
Please forward as necessary.
The story has broke in The Register, our good friend Cade Metz did some
digging (enabled in part by WR, no doubt) and went public with names.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/19/wikipedia_civil_servant_scandal/
Larry Pieniazek
Hobby mail: Lar at Miltontrainworks dot com
-----------
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:48:20 2008
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:48:20 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0809200848t6195d024re26f7538611be300@mail.gmail.com>
No surprise. I think many of us knew this was coming.
According to my inside source at WR, Cade Metz and disgruntled WP-en
editors were approached in the hope that situation could be used to
discredit WP/Wikimedia.
Sydney
-----------
From dgerard at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:51:29 2008
From: dgerard at gmail.com (David Gerard)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:51:29 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0809200848t6195d024re26f7538611be300@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<16032ea0809200848t6195d024re26f7538611be300@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fbad4e140809200851l661f71acu3bf0731ef6d9bf4c@mail.gmail.com>
2008/9/20 FloNight <sydney.poore at gmail.com>:
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Larry Pieniazek
> <lar at miltontrainworks.com> wrote:
>> The story has broke in The Register, our good friend Cade Metz did some
>> digging (enabled in part by WR, no doubt) and went public with names.
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/19/wikipedia_civil_servant_scandal/
> According to my inside source at WR, Cade Metz and disgruntled WP-en
> editors were approached in the hope that situation could be used to
> discredit WP/Wikimedia.
Cade Metz, you're a sociopathic arsehole and WR and you deserve each
other. So much for our efforts not to wreck the guy's life.
- d.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:53:28 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:53:28 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
The information Metz has was publicized by WR (primarily by Proabivouac).
Others at WR, including most of those who worked on the case with him,
tried to tell him not to, but couldn't get him to change his mind.
Original "outing" post for comparison with Metz' story:
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd7ss2g_0fshgw6hq&pli=1
He also posted on WR within the hour an email I sent him that was indicated
to be private (and which deliberately included no major information because
of his prior record for publishing against advice).
Most of those actually involved at WR acted fairly responsibly -- two other
significant figures involved at WR both said they had tried to argue for
non-naming for the same reason but didn't have full say on it. Worth being
aware of, perhaps.
FT2
-----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 16:21:40 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:21:40 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
To clarify one thing: the initial explosion was not under our *or* WR's
control. Chris Selwood, the partner of one of the girls in MB/Poet's
personas, had already contacted police, lawyer and his workplace privately
by September 5, before any identification was publicized by anyone.
What was then added was the subsequent publicizing of MB's name, personal
details, and sexual interests, and apparent attempts to get this into the
media.
FT2
----------
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 16:42:15 2008
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:42:15 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
How sure are we that this information is accurate?
I was warned to be careful about taking any information at face value.
There was concern among some WP friendly-WR folks that there was
"deception on top of deception." Meaning that some fabrication
"might" be happening by some people to make WP look incompetent in the
way that we handled this investigation.
Sydney
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 16:58:03 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:58:03 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 5:42 PM, FloNight <sydney.poore at gmail.com> wrote:
> How sure are we that this information is accurate?
>
> I was warned to be careful about taking any information at face value.
> There was concern among some WP friendly-WR folks that there was
> "deception on top of deception." Meaning that some fabrication
> "might" be happening by some people to make WP look incompetent in the
> way that we handled this investigation.
>
> Sydney
>
Very sure. I checked out thoroughly, and obviously have inside pipes into WR
too.
As an example, when I checked Chris Selwood, in case he was Poet-a-like or a
stooge, I contacted the head office of his business, which is in a different
town and widely linked on Google and the UK corporation's register
("companies house"), and asked a (female) employee of that office if they
knew a "Chris Selwood" and his role.... speaking to a female employee to be
sure it wasn't Poet, then to the senior govt official concerned he told me
he had talked to, who emailed me from the same UK govt email address that
was listed under "govt standards" web pages on the .gov.uk web pages.....
and who knew the case and Chris' name immediately without me saying more,
and confirmed the suspension by email.
That's the point I concluded MB genuinely had been reported and suspended.
Not before.
I also tracked evidence back to online data from the 1960-70s, which was
highly obscure (unless you know what to look for) and IPs that aren't
fakeable and show exact evidence of the matter. WR may be worried about
being misled. I think I can say that the facts we know and have discussed,
are not in any way being faked or gamed, and can be relied upon. I switched
on "mode=paranoia/great caution" at many points in the inquiry, and the
evidence was in total, fairly impossible to fake. The sole risk for us is
"more socks", which isn't an issue for FloNight's question.
FT2
Posted by: MaliceAforethought
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:12:32 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:12:32 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
Quick examples of evidence:
* Unquestionable Poetlister/Runcorn style edits made by an IP at MB's
workplace... and another place with exceptional real-world ties to MB and
with very tight security, where very few people would have access.
* Poetlister's email address is identical to the street and the part of
street where MB lived almost 40 years ago.
* Londoneye's uploads -- the first 5 uploads are london train stations: the
one where MB lives now, the one next door his synagogue, the one where he
grew up... and the exact one office block in London where he works.
* Runcorn sock with email address that is <MB's boss' name>@googlemail.com
* MB using his _private_ personal "M___ B___" email address, which was used
to write edits on other websites, on obscure topics that the Runcorn ring
then edited on Wikipedia.
* MB being recognized by Jodie Lynn of the Boudoir dressing service as using
the name Rachel Brown, being "a civil servant", and showing her the photo
users were told was "Poetlister" whom he claimed in real life to be a
"girlfriend" or such. They met in real life several times. (source - her
email to me, not WR's emails.)
* Match of MB self-disclosed hobbies (1999-2000, not published online,
written sources only) and Runcorn sock ring knowledge and editing interests
(Judaism, bible analysis and study, his exact workplace, etc.)
* Presence in MB and relatives wiki-bios of material that could only be
written by a relative or the person themselves, or someone with personal
knowledge, no other sources. ("Was a prefect at school"... "known as uncle
sid"... "had no jobs except these"...)
About a hundred more things. Seriously, a lot of very "hard" evidence.
(Remember -- until WR figured him out, I was expecting to have to prove this
against immense disbelief and hostility.)
FT2
----------
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:36:27 2008
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:36:27 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
When I was contacted several weeks ago, the concern was about the
accuracy of Chis Selwood claims and the motivation behind the upcoming
Wikipedia on site exposure. This was prior to the post on site
breaking the issue at WP-en.
Like you, most everyone with knowledge of the situation was highly
suspicious of the motives and had concerns about the accuracy of the
information.
Unfortunately, we still need to guard against being played, I think.
That is the reason that I suggest that we get some factually accurate
talking points ready and stick to commenting with well verified facts
in public.
No huge hurry, FT2. I plan to make another comment on WS but I don't
see a need to do it right away.
Thanks for your hard work and the sensitive way that you handled the situation.
Sydney
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:50:42 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:50:42 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809201050j7c2c0214r6c2312d6216219b8@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:36 PM, FloNight <sydney.poore at gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was contacted several weeks ago, the concern was about the
> accuracy of Chis Selwood claims and the motivation behind the upcoming
> Wikipedia on site exposure. This was prior to the post on site
> breaking the issue at WP-en.
>
> Like you, most everyone with knowledge of the situation was highly
> suspicious of the motives and had concerns about the accuracy of the
> information.
>
> Unfortunately, we still need to guard against being played, I think.
> That is the reason that I suggest that we get some factually accurate
> talking points ready and stick to commenting with well verified facts
> in public.
>
> No huge hurry, FT2. I plan to make another comment on WS but I don't
> see a need to do it right away.
>
> Thanks for your hard work and the sensitive way that you handled the
> situation.
>
> Sydney
>
>
>
>
>
>
This email's more to sum up where i'm at and ask what if anything's needed.
If there are specific points you want to recheck, or get confirmation what
evidence exists, or need examination, let me know any time.
FT2
----------
From aphaia at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 18:01:28 2008
From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 03:01:28 +0900
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35be2a710809201101i25887002o95b5a917d0e64092@mail.gmail.com>
Thanks guys for your information (and FT2 thanks for your warm mention)
I agree with FloNight: having a set of talking points (and not-talking
points: e.g. still now we need not to say MB was the person behind
those accounts) is good I think. To the outside it may be an option
not to talk but we need to say something to the community. The last
year mobbing may have come insufficient transparency on enwiki as FT
noted on meta. We would not like to see it again.
Another thing we would like to see is I suppose a set of confirmed his
socks on WMF wikis and as FT2 noted a set of IP addresses behind them.
I've run checks on his known WQ socks and it is not completed (while I
began it last week). His online disguise is almost complete: until now
no user string of each account matches, and most of IP addresses
except Cato and Poetlister. We need to pay attention to suspicious
accounts very carefully: with possibility of collateral damages and
red herrings.
FYI: the privileges granted to his known socks on WQ will be stripped
early next week at latest. Some want to apply [[WP:SNOW]] but I am not
sure if it is a good idea: MB may later argue there would have been a
different course of discussion or he wouldn't have a sufficient change
to advocate himself. Hope two days make no difference (I don't think
he will use his right before being stripped though).
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:36 AM, FloNight <sydney.poore at gmail.com> wrote:
> When I was contacted several weeks ago, the concern was about the
> accuracy of Chis Selwood claims and the motivation behind the upcoming
> Wikipedia on site exposure. This was prior to the post on site
> breaking the issue at WP-en.
>
> Like you, most everyone with knowledge of the situation was highly
> suspicious of the motives and had concerns about the accuracy of the
> information.
>
> Unfortunately, we still need to guard against being played, I think.
> That is the reason that I suggest that we get some factually accurate
> talking points ready and stick to commenting with well verified facts
> in public.
>
> No huge hurry, FT2. I plan to make another comment on WS but I don't
> see a need to do it right away.
>
> Thanks for your hard work and the sensitive way that you handled the situation.
>
> Sydney
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 18:13:55 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:13:55 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <35be2a710809201101i25887002o95b5a917d0e64092@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200921mfd2de37w3112106b53c9ebc7@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809200942y9fedd26m93d4e17ca18894eb@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809200958y29735ee6p77051c7ffa89b8d7@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0809201036m2c4ac971w4128ce0705eb44@mail.gmail.com>
<35be2a710809201101i25887002o95b5a917d0e64092@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809201113k614dc7b3o5c61e18c71b332da@mail.gmail.com>
He uses proxies, and a variety of UK ISPs - not so helpful. He's likely to
be identifiable mostly by behavior, and by accounts showing such behavior
turning out to edit via proxies and UK ISPs under Checkuser - also limited
help. There is a lot of very strong behaviors and behavioral evidence if
needed but as that's easily changed I want to keep that "off this list". It
can be used to ID socks.
FT2
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 01:09:27 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:09:27 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809201809p3426103ct64824c1a16ff862d@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 11:53 AM, FT2 <ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Most of those actually involved at WR acted fairly responsibly -- two other
> significant figures involved at WR both said they had tried to argue for
> non-naming for the same reason but didn't have full say on it.
Only because PL wasn't one of their favorite targets, and because the
whole affair makes them look idiotic. They have no qualms about naming
all sorts of other Wikipedia editors.
----------
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 01:31:12 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:31:12 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <6a8d9d700809201809p3426103ct64824c1a16ff862d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809201809p3426103ct64824c1a16ff862d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809201831k4c7ec58dt5f11d0b5522ab654@mail.gmail.com>
See in future what the trend is, over there. Some of the more extreme views
aren't flavor of the month right now. In *this* case some acted sanely.
Perhaps in other cases they won't. Hence no assumption and significant
caution?
Paul.
----------
From jayjg99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 01:46:07 2008
From: jayjg99 at gmail.com (jayjg)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:46:07 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809201831k4c7ec58dt5f11d0b5522ab654@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0809200623u4814022fha689e1494788dbc8@mail.gmail.com>
<fbad4e140809200722g139c964euefe11d8398cb78b9@mail.gmail.com>
<00af01c91b36$2951cb20$1dd13109@svl.ibm.com>
<e71d9fab0809200853y4fa70372nad8373fdd91d494f@mail.gmail.com>
<6a8d9d700809201809p3426103ct64824c1a16ff862d@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0809201831k4c7ec58dt5f11d0b5522ab654@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a8d9d700809201846l24cc0badrd54736fe60d96393@mail.gmail.com>
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results." Even as they were suppressing Baxter's name, they
allowed posts with multiple names of Wikipedia editors to stand.
-----------
From aphaia at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 17:06:51 2008
From: aphaia at gmail.com (Aphaia)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:06:51 +0900
Subject: [Arbcom-l] [ENWQ] IP addresses used by MB aka Poetlister
Message-ID: <35be2a710809211006i27dd0d53s1d01792d30065a0c@mail.gmail.com>
Hello there,
Here the below is a list of all IP addresses which were used to edit
by MB aka Poetlister, Cato or whatsoever.
There are two autocreated accounts on ENWQ but CU gave back no result.
Since there are a lot of edits, I didn't place all the logs of "Edits
by IP" but only IP addresses and his user agent string combined.
Some of those IP addresses are known open proxies including soft
blocked at that moment:
I think that unless there is a good reason not to do I will hard-block
those IP addresses for three months as either open proxies or IP
addresses for disruption after the ongoing
vote of confidence is closed which looks to support for stripping
votes and blocking all known his subaccounts unanimousl.
Hope this list helps further investigation, if necessary, and prevent
his further disruption.
Cheers,
== Account and IP address combination ==
===Poetlister===
213.52.175.218 (block) (12:34, 23 June 2008 -- 16:33, 9 September
2008) [24] (~25 from all users)*
75.126.219.186 (block) (22:15, 13 June 2008 -- 07:22, 7 September 2008) [361]
87.74.243.165 (block) (11:12, 11 July 2008 -- 11:33, 4 September 2008) [27]
141.76.45.35 (block) (17:35, 23 August 2008 -- 17:58, 23 August 2008) [8]
141.76.45.34 (block) (17:20, 23 August 2008 -- 17:56, 23 August 2008) [6]
87.74.132.36 (block) (19:10, 10 August 2008 -- 19:55, 16 August 2008) [35]
67.228.101.165 (block) (20:47, 1 August 2008 -- 21:03, 1 August 2008) [7]
86.140.167.139 (block) (19:56, 1 August 2008 -- 20:34, 1 August 2008)
[9] (~34 from all users)**
81.156.211.215 (block) (21:52, 25 July 2008 -- 22:38, 25 July 2008)
[3] (~38 from all users)**
208.53.157.17 (block) (19:28, 19 July 2008 -- 21:22, 25 July 2008) [54]
213.123.227.128 (block) (08:29, 24 July 2008 -- 08:48, 24 July 2008) [12]
212.227.103.74 (block) (20:10, 13 July 2008 -- 22:10, 16 July 2008) [9]
;Note
* Shared by Poetlister (now Quillercouch), Cato and Poetlister2
** Shared by Poetlister and Cato
=== Cato ===
86.135.146.91 (block) (17:54, 17 August 2008 -- 21:46, 6 September
2008) [64] (~65 from all users)
86.140.167.139 (block) (21:12, 2 August 2008 -- 09:25, 10 August 2008)
[25] (~34 from all users)
74.86.80.50 (block) (19:53, 31 July 2008 -- 06:49, 1 August 2008) [11]
(~20 from all users)
81.156.211.215 (block) (21:08, 14 July 2008 -- 23:26, 23 July 2008)
[35] (~38 from all users)
86.135.91.237 (block) (21:16, 25 June 2008 -- 12:14, 13 July 2008)
[35] (~36 from all users)
62.188.19.109 (block) (13:59, 2 July 2008) [1]
86.143.118.62 (block) (21:57, 21 June 2008 -- 21:55, 23 June 2008) [98]
;Note
86.135.146.91 and 86.135.91.237 include one anon edit respectively
(supposed to log out incidentally)
For 86.140.167.139 & 81.156.211.215 , see 2008-09-10.Poetlister.odt.
74.86.80.50 was shard by one anon and user:????? who is in Beijing or
superb and needs to edit
via open proxy due to GFW. This sharing may be just a coincident.
=== Yehudi ===
78.105.55.79 (block) (13:01, 5 September 2008 -- 13:23, 5 September 2008) [8]
208.101.35.52 (block) (20:47, 24 June 2008 -- 21:13, 30 August 2008) [185]
82.69.25.99 (block) (17:33, 18 June 2008 -- 17:38, 31 July 2008) [5]
67.159.44.134 (block) (20:40, 16 July 2008 -- 20:46, 16 July 2008) [4] (Blocked)
78.105.5.61 (block) (08:24, 3 July 2008 -- 09:15, 3 July 2008) [4]
No other accounts are found with this account.
=== q:user:Crum375 (now renamed as Scotsman) ===
86.165.35.133 (block) (14:09, 16 August 2008 -- 14:59, 16 August 2008) [26]
[RDNS ? RBLs ? Traceroute ? Geolocate ? Tor check ? WHOIS]
77.44.81.204 (block) (09:25, 30 July 2008 -- 12:34, 4 August 2008) [25]
[RDNS ? RBLs ? Traceroute ? Geolocate ? Tor check ? WHOIS]
No other accounts are found with this account.
FYI MB said es:user:Crum375 belonged to him too.
==User agent strings' samples ==
(Logs) . . 16:33 . . Quillercouch (Talk | contribs | block) sent an
email to user "2fee97966769997b5e343d87d9087723"
IP: 213.52.175.218 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0;
Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR
3.0.04506.30)
(Logs) . . 20:32 . . Poetlister (Talk | contribs | block) has renamed
User:Samuel Grant to "Samuel Grant (usurped)" (3 edits. Reason:
WQ:USURP)
IP: 86.140.167.139 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; MSNIA;
Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)
(diff) (hist) . . m User talk:Arbok . . 22:38 . . Poetlister (Talk |
contribs | block) (Please, please: typo)
IP: 81.156.211.215 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0;
en-GB; rv:1.9.0.1)
(diff) (hist) . . Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard . . 09:25 . .
Cato (Talk | contribs | block) (Block (and unblock) of User:Crum375:
We need to consider what is best for WQ and the project as a whole)
IP: 86.140.167.139 Internet Explorer 1.0 8088 processor
(diff) (hist) . . Fred Jelinek . . 22:30 . . Cato (Talk | contribs |
block) (Cleaned up)
IP: 86.135.146.91 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0;
en-US) AppleWebKit/525.13 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/0.2.149.27
Safari/525.13
(Logs) . . 09:06 . . Cato (Talk | contribs | block) sent an email to
user "02436f63c861648057e132c38c03ed59"
IP: 86.135.146.91 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0;
en-GB; rv:1.9.0.1) Gecko/2008070208 Firefox/3.0.1
(Logs) . . 07:26 . . Cato (Talk | contribs | block) sent an email to
user "778ac507bdeb77847bdf09224ad55499"
IP: 86.135.146.91 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows
NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR
3.0.04506)
(Logs) . . 13:23 . . Yehudi (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Nick:
ICarly" (SD: Duplicate/redundant page: content was: '#REDIRECT ICarly'
(and the only contributor was 'Arbok'))
IP: 78.105.55.79 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1)
(diff) (hist) . . Wikiquote:Requests for adminship . . 12:58 . .
Yehudi (Talk | contribs | block) (Current administrators: fixed
inconsistency)
IP: 208.101.35.52 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows
NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR
3.0.04506)
(diff) (hist) . . Tim Hurson . . 09:14 . . Yehudi (Talk | contribs |
block) (External links: Categories)
IP: 78.105.5.61 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows
NT 5.1; SV1; InfoPath.2)
(diff) (hist) . . Alec Douglas-Home . . 14:59 . . Crum375 (Talk |
contribs | block) (Attributed: Another quote)
IP: 86.165.35.133 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows
NT 5.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)
(diff) (hist) . . The Young Rajah . . 09:28 . . Crum375 (Talk |
contribs | block) (External links)
IP: 77.44.81.204 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows
NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Zango 10.2.191.0)
--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 17:26:49 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:26:49 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] [ENWQ] IP addresses used by MB aka Poetlister
In-Reply-To: <35be2a710809211006i27dd0d53s1d01792d30065a0c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <35be2a710809211006i27dd0d53s1d01792d30065a0c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0809211026p65417edcya84a407ca326631e@mail.gmail.com>
Thanks! I'm catching up on my own stuff (or trying to, sigh!) andthis'll be
helpful when I do some work on the Poetlister IPs across the projects, for
checkuser and others' information.
Best,
FT2
Posted by: Milton Roe
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:12:32 2008
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:12:32 +0100
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
Quick examples of evidence:
[blah blah]
About a hundred more things. Seriously, a lot of very "hard" evidence.
(Remember -- until WR figured him out, I was expecting to have to prove this
against immense disbelief and hostility.)
FT2
----------
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:36:27 2008
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:36:27 -0400
Subject: [Arbcom-l] Poetlister wrap-up
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0809201012i45ee3d23of732608f30b6d93b@mail.gmail.com>
> No huge hurry, FT2. I plan to make another comment on WS but I don't
> see a need to do it right away.
>
> Thanks for your hard work and the sensitive way that you handled the
> situation.
>
> Sydney
Well, you're sure welcome, Flo! I think that the THANK YOU card you sent to WR got lost in the email somehow, but we're all really happy that you noticed our efforts. Being singled out for recognition even on a secret ArbComm mailing list is at least something. Or not.
Of course, it can be argued that FT2's "sensititivity" at making sure poor Baxter wasn't offended or embarassed in any way, might have been the key factor in getting this job done and the problem fixed. Probably he should have been the one tasked with
Posted by: bi-winning
They act like teenage boys talking about porno at Jesus Camp.
"WR is wicked, vile stuff!"
"Yeah, but I've pretty much got a pipeline into it."
"Dude, you shouldn't even touch the stuff!.......... can I see?"
Classy how they talk about MB like the second coming of Hitler, and casually talk about his life being destroyed, as they admire their own reflections compared to those fuckers at WR.
Posted by: InkBlot
So, this "anvil" letter FT2 keeps talking about -
Now that the sock ring is out and admitted on wiki, and not in doubt (
http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title...2&oldid=770908),
I can say that I came down on him like an anvil, and about as hard and
forcibly as I could do it while still being fair if publicized and legal if
challenged. Very unlike my usual style. My email to him was reviewed by
several people before sending (sam korn called it "scary" which was about
the effect I was after given MB's personality which has a strong pivot on
themes of fear, dominance, control, submission). I copied for the record to
Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher at the
time I sent it.
I would have, and still will, investigate the avenues I told him I would, if
I ever need to re-open the inquiry or he repeats. But if it doesn't happen
again, then I'm not his executioner. It's enough for me if the belief that
he can abuse and fool others with impunity is shattered, and he is left with
fear that doing so will not work out well for him -- because frankly I doubt
much else will motivate him to not repeat.
Is this the same letter in discussion in the "Poor FT2" thread? The one Cary and Jimbo both denied knowledge of? The one which undid him in 2010? Two years after the fact?
In the email, FT2
threatened to contact family members of the sockpuppeter directly, and laid
out a series of conditions including those external to Wikipedia with the
threat of contacting employers, government agencies, and others about the
nature of the socking. It was known at the time this email was disclosed to
the Committee ''en banc'' that the conditions outlined in FT2's email had
not been met, and there was concern that he might proceed with the actions
he had threatened in the email.
FT2 confirmed that the text of the email was
correct and implied that the content had been vetted in advance by a WMF
staff member and a WMF board member. Both denied having read the email at
any point. FT2 was also asked to provide further details of that particular
investigation, which he had refused to share with at least one sitting
member of the arbitration committee at the time of the investigation.
Geez...I'm as vicarious anyone reading through these archives, but maybe it's ArbCom that needs to be reading this stuff.
Posted by: Peter Damian
Is this the same letter in discussion in the "Poor FT2" thread? The one Cary and Jimbo both denied knowledge of? The one which undid him in 2010? Two years after the fact?
The very same.
But It wasn’t that which undid him in 2010, as I have pointed out already. It was his official lying about the oversighting incident. There may be a connection - the timing suggests that they leant on Scribe, via Risker, to force the resignation in a way that would be less embarrassing to the Arbcom. I have emailed Risker about this but she replied saying she cannot comment.
So the chronology is looking like this.
* Sept 13 2008 – FT2 sends out the email, copying Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher.
* February 2010 – PL mails Frank Bednarz attaching the ‘anvil’ mail. The committee decides to sit on it.
* November 2010 – FT2 stands for election. Risker drafts a public statement implicating FT2 in the ‘anvil’ letter.
* December 2010 – Scribe emails FT2 about a separate, entirely different incident, and forces him to step down
So the relevant question is: did the committee request Scribe to fall on his sword, to save embarrassment to the committee? Then the committee is guilty of withholding information from the community. Or did Scribe do this unprompted? The problem with the latter is that Scribe had strong motives for not acting (for he was implicated in the other incident). Also, why did Scribe act so late in the election?
Posted by: Peter Damian
A correction to this timeline.
* 2 August 2009 Poetlister sends a copy of the 'Anvil' to an ordinary adminstrator. I don't know why he waited a year, but (if my copy of Anvil is authentic), he was threatened with dire consequences if he mentioned even its existence to any others than the small circle who knew about it.
* 10 August 2009 - the adminstrator copies the email to a member of the Arbcom, who we will call X.
* 14 August 2009 - X confirms the email is genuine (via Cary Bass), saying that FT2 should be expelled from Wikipedia.
* Some time between February and 19 March 2010 the Anvil is posted to the Arblist. The arbitrators are 'horrified' (but did nothing about it).
In one of the posts it is claimed that Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher received copies of the Anvil. Further research suggests that at least one administrator (Thatcher) received a much earlier version of the email, which was much milder. I have asked Vandenberg if he recalls receiving a version. Also I will confirm with Thatcher.
The only person known definitely to have received a copy was Cary Bass.
Posted by: Shalom
I'm baffled by the allegation that Henrygb and his socks are also Poetlister and his socks. One of the reasons I doubted that Poetlister and his socks were all one individual was that I simply couldn't fathom how a single man or woman could be so obsessive. To suppose that he was even more obsessive as to run two admin accounts simultaneously and another two sockpuppets when he was already managing a massive sockfarm, strains credulity. I did a detailed "offdays analysis" - my preferred method for getting a feel of how sockpuppet behavior fits into a pattern of timing - and the profile of Poetlister and his socks seemed substantially different from the profile of Henrygb and his socks. I won't look at it anymore, but I would be floored if Charles Matthews is correct on that point. Anyone who wants my Excel files on this may ask for them; I'd have to raid the files of my old computer which is now on life support.
To be clear, I didn't compare Henrygb/socks against Poetlister/socks directly. I found that the offdays analysis technique nailed Henrygb/socks easily. Henrygb typically made a few edits on most days. When he went on break, the socks went on break too. I can't remember a day when the socks edited and Henrygb didn't edit. This is research (perhaps too strong a word) I did in April 2008 so I'm unable to remember it clearly. Poetlister/socks defeated the offdays analysis technique, perhaps unintentionally, by juggling his sockpuppets in a much more sophisticated approach. He had some of his sockpuppets take weeklong holidays in the summer, but it almost never happened that all the sockpuppets took off on the same day. One of my strongest points in defense-lawyering for Poetlister/socks, in my now-deleted "Poetlister is innocent" userspace essay, was that nobody would carry on this exercise for a full year or more without taking a single day off (maybe one or two days off, I can't remember). I checked other highly active editors and found that BrownHairedGirl and Orderinchaos had long "hit streaks" of editing every day for many weeks. But even Orderinchaos, who edited every day for seven months, didn't rise to the absurd obsessive dedication of Poetlister/socks. I wondered, if this is really one person, does he EVER take a vacation? I further explained to him that all he needed to do to disprove the allegations against him was to demonstrate to ArbCom that he didn't have internet access for ANY period that ANY of his socks were editing. A plane ticket confirmation with his real name on it, plus the testimony of an acquaintance who was aware of the plane trip, would have solved it. The man wrote that he took the train to France once but didn't travel and couldn't furnish such proof. I have no idea whether he actually went to France when he said he did. It wouldn't be the only lie he told me. He also said that one of the sockpuppets became observant of Orthodox Jewish practice, and was now keeping the Sabbath, which begins Friday at sundown. I checked that writer's contributions, and it seemed that sometimes it contributed about a half hour or an hour after candle lighting in London. Rather than checking my assumptions, I decided it was close enough. I feel foolish that I didn't challenge him on this point because that point alone undermined his whole argument. Given that the sock DID edit on the Orthodox Jewish Shabbat, the person behind the sock was not actually keeping Shabbat, and therefore, the story the man told me was a lie, and probably everything else was also a lie. I should have managed to figure it out.
Posted by: Floydsvoid
Color me impressed. All I have from that era are card decks and rolls of paper tape.
Hey, but at least Somey exhibits humanoid traits.
I wonder if I happened to see Somey at the train station and then David Gerard, who would I consider to be the nutter?
Posted by: No one of consequence
A correction to this timeline.
* 2 August 2009 Poetlister sends a copy of the 'Anvil' to an ordinary adminstrator. I don't know why he waited a year, but (if my copy of Anvil is authentic), he was threatened with dire consequences if he mentioned even its existence to any others than the small circle who knew about it.
* 10 August 2009 - the adminstrator copies the email to a member of the Arbcom, who we will call X.
* 14 August 2009 - X confirms the email is genuine (via Cary Bass), saying that FT2 should be expelled from Wikipedia.
* Some time between February and 19 March 2010 the Anvil is posted to the Arblist. The arbitrators are 'horrified' (but did nothing about it).
In one of the posts it is claimed that Cary, Jayvdb, Aphaia, Jpgordon, Rlevse, David Gerard, and Thatcher received copies of the Anvil. Further research suggests that at least one administrator (Thatcher) received a much earlier version of the email, which was much milder. I have asked Vandenberg if he recalls receiving a version. Also I will confirm with Thatcher.
The only person known definitely to have received a copy was Cary Bass.
Please understand that I have not been active in more than a year, I have deleted nearly all my archives, and I don't even remember clearly (without reviewing things to refresh my memory) why FT2 ultimately resigned, or many other details of these long-past and unpleasant events that I am pleased to no longer be involved in. I can make a few comments.
On 2 Aug 2009, Poetlister sent me a copy of an email allegedly sent to him by FT2. I will not post the email or send it to anyone else, but if someone has a copy, I will tell you whether the copies match. I have no way to know whether the email is authentic--that is, whether it is a true, complete and unedited copy of an email that FT2 sent to Poetlister. I can not verify that it is authentic, or was subtly adjusted, or even completely made up. If FT2 ever acknowledged to me that it was a true and accurate copy, that is no longer in my archives. The copy that Poetlister sent me is without headers, so I have no date information. It says "CC to Cary Bass for information" but I do not know if this is true and accurate.
On 10 Aug 2009 I forwarded the attachment to Cool Hand Luke with a note that if he had further questions he should contact Poetlister directly. I also included the following comment,
CHL, attached is a document from Poetlister purporting to be the (or one of the) email(s) sent to him by FT2. If you have any further questions you should put them directly to Poetlister.
I will disclose for the sake of completeness that on 29 July 2008 FT2 sent me a draft of an email he intended to send to Poetlister. It was entirely different from the attached document. I don't know if it was ever sent as a different email or if FT2 substantially revised his thinking. The draft I have was along the lines of "If you go quietly I'll keep this private, otherwise I will have to have a public discussion that may be damaging to you." I don't have a record of any response I made I (I may not have made one). This document is entirely new to me.
Needless to say, FT2's 2008 draft email is long gone from my archives, and even if I had it, I wouldn't post it here (or anywhere else).
I have only vague recollections of my subsequent discussions of this issue with Cool Hand Luke and Newyorkbrad. The emails or chats or whatever they were did not survive my many purges, and I will not post any characterizations of vaguely remembered private conversations. I have no knowledge of any postings on Arbcom-L.
Posted by: Peter Damian
On 2 Aug 2009, Poetlister sent me a copy of an email allegedly sent to him by FT2. I will not post the email or send it to anyone else, but if someone has a copy, I will tell you whether the copies match.
Thanks for confirming. The copy that you were sent is the copy that was subsequently confirmed as genuine by Cary, and is therefore genuine. However, I need to know whether my copy is genuine. If I send it to you privately, would be grateful if you confirm its authenticity. (I believe the copy I have has been edited down to remove the tl;dr bits, but I want to be certain there are no additions).
Events may overtake this, however, as the leaker has said he will publish the mail at some point.
“CHL, attached is a document from Poetlister purporting to be the (or one of the) email(s) sent to him by FT2. If you have any further questions you should put them directly to Poetlister.
I will disclose for the sake of completeness that on 29 July 2008 FT2 sent me a draft of an email he intended to send to Poetlister. It was entirely different from the attached document. I don't know if it was ever sent as a different email or if FT2 substantially revised his thinking. The draft I have was along the lines of "If you go quietly I'll keep this private, otherwise I will have to have a public discussion that may be damaging to you." I don't have a record of any response I made I (I may not have made one). This document is entirely new to me.
This is consistent with the timeline I was given to understand. I have also had confirmation from another arb that the leaked material so far matches with what they had been reading.
I have only vague recollections of my subsequent discussions of this issue with Cool Hand Luke and Newyorkbrad.
I did not know Brad was involved.
Posted by: No one of consequence
Thanks for confirming. The copy that you were sent is the copy that was subsequently confirmed as genuine by Cary, and is therefore genuine. However, I need to know whether my copy is genuine. If I send it to you privately, would be grateful if you confirm its authenticity. (I believe the copy I have has been edited down to remove the tl;dr bits, but I want to be certain there are no additions).
As I indicated, I will do that. You have my email address.
I have only vague recollections of my subsequent discussions of this issue with Cool Hand Luke and Newyorkbrad.
I did not know Brad was involved.
He was the arbitrator I talked to most often, about various things. I recall at some point asking, "by the way, has anything happened with the FT2-PL email?" (Of course, all the arbitrators were eventually involved, if the email was posted to Arbcom-L.) It is also possible that I am mis-remembering and that I had that conversation with someone else. Poetlister may have sent the alleged email to more than one person, and, lacking archives, I can not remember details of these events with certainty.
Posted by: Abd
I have been sent a copy of the "Anvil" mail by Poetlister, somewhat redacted and with a couple of comments from him. It is consistent with what FT2 explains in his mails to arbcom-l. He was deliberately coming down on Poetlister like an "anvil," hence the name given to the mail.
The mail threatens Poetlister, aggressively, and the description of the mail on arbcom-l as "scary" is reasonable. It attempted to extort or blackmail Poetlister into revealing all his socks, by promising harm to him, his career, his family, his entire social life, if he does not completely and immediately comply.
The "scary" quality of the mail is justified by FT2 on the list, through his belief in the nobility of his goal. One of the apparent objectives was to see to it that advanced privileges were removed from Poetlister/Cato at Wikiquote. This was being done with a cover that FT2 was happy to leave this up to the WQ community.
If an non-admin did what FT2 was doing, it would be considered clear harassment, completely beyond the pale. So that ArbComm tolerated FT2's activity shows where they stand. Not that this is surprising news to us.
Suppose I'd figured out ScienceApologist's RL identity. (I had, in fact, but didn't use this.) Then, to get him to stop "doing damage" -- in my view -- in certain topic areas, I told him that, if he didn't comply with my demands, I would investigate his internet history back many decades, aggressively gather checkuser data -- suppose I have a checkuser friend -- expose his identity, call his wife -- if he had a wife --, call his employer, make sure that his religious community knows about whatever perfidy, real or imagined, that I could dredge up, how would Wikipedia deal with this if it became known?
Yes, that mail was "scary," and that someone who would write and send that mail was allowed to continue with advanced privileges, with nobody on ArbComm even hinting that there might be a problem, as far as we can see, is one more piece of evidence as to how broken Wikipedia is. The problem is not FT2, he just did what some do when they find themselves in the situation as it occurred to him. He'd been led to that position by prior experience with Wikipedia, he was trained to "come down like an anvil."
There are arbitrators who, I'm sure, could see the problem. They have learned to keep their mouths shut, trained to conform, or at least keep quiet, like every other participant, by this dysfunctional community.
None of this has anything to do with whether Poetlister was "lying" or not. It's really irrelevant.
Posted by: EricBarbour
Um, sorry to point this out, but your comments read like Ronald Reagan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#Iran-Contra_affair about the Iran-Contra affair......
Posted by: powercorrupts
Um, sorry to point this out, but your comments read like Ronald Reagan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#Iran-Contra_affair about the Iran-Contra affair......
Yeah, at least he had Alzheimer's for his entire presidency.
Posted by: No one of consequence
Um, sorry to point this out, but your comments read like Ronald Reagan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan#Iran-Contra_affair about the Iran-Contra affair......
I liked Reagan. I'll take Iran-Contra if you take Project Gunwalker and Operation Fast and Furious.
Poetlister sent me an email allegedly from FT2, and I forwarded it to Cool Hand Luke. My personal opinion of the email is that, if it is a true and accurate copy, then FT2 far overstepped his role, and parts of that email were massively inappropriate. I think FT2 got too personally involved, as he did in other cases (Headleydown and Peter Damian) and lost objectivity. I don't remember if I advocated for removing FT2's higher level access. I do remember saying that I was uncomfortable with his continuing to have high level access, and that I would not want him doing any more such detective work. I can't be more specific about my views at the time because I don't have the archives, and I can't discuss the views of anyone else about the matter, partly for the same reason, and partly because someone else's opinions are theirs to disclose, not mine. If that makes me senile, then...
...hey, where are my car keys?
I don't have to be here, you know. I've been clean and sober from Wikipedia for almost 18 months (except for a brief relapse in December) and am only posting here as a favor to Damian. I see that you and many others are still here, chewing the same old bones over and over again. Maybe I should start a 12-step group for Wikipedia editors. I'll even be your sponsor. The first step is to admit that you are powerless over your addiction and that your Wikipedia obsession has become unmanageable...
Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky
Welcome back, No One. Was your choice of username here by any chance influenced by the Odyssey?
Posted by: No one of consequence
Welcome back, No One. Was your choice of username here by any chance influenced by the Odyssey?
It's a Princess Bride reference. Now that's a real classic!
Posted by: Milton Roe
Welcome back, No One. Was your choice of username here by any chance influenced by the Odyssey?
It's a Princess Bride reference. Now that's a real classic!
"Dred Pirate Roberts (generic title)" we would have gotten.