Jayjg MIA Options

[Heat]

Jayjg hasn't edited since April 8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayjg Now while he stopped editing around the beginning of Passover he hasn't resumed editing since its end.

Has Jayjg decided to run to ground until the West Bank Arbcomm case is over (Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny)

[dtobias]

Will the cops take a Missing Person Report on this basis?

[Son of a Yeti]

Jayjg hasn't edited since April 8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayjg Now while he stopped editing around the beginning of Passover he hasn't resumed editing since its end.

Has Jayjg decided to run to ground until the West Bank Arbcomm case is over (Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny)

Why didn't anyone told me? I didn't know Wikipedia was already a better place!

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/evilgrin.gif)

[gomi]

(Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny)

Jay has a habit of lobbying the Arbcom on the special-sooper-sekrit ArbCom mailing list so furiously that he has no time for mere editing.

[Somey]

Maybe he's in mourning for the recently-deceased author J.G. Ballard?

[EricBarbour]

Maybe he's in mourning for the recently-deceased author J.G. Ballard?

A guy like that probably has no idea who Ballard was.

Safe bet, he's "hiding" from Arbcom (meaning: frantically manipulating people
behind the scenes, as shitrain falls upon his parade).

This post has been edited by EricBarbour:

[Heat]

Maybe he's in mourning for the recently-deceased author J.G. Ballard?

A guy like that probably has no idea who Ballard was.

Safe bet, he's "hiding" from Arbcom (meaning: frantically manipulating people
behind the scenes, as shitrain falls upon his parade).

Hm. Jayjg disappears and two weeks later J. G. Ballard dies. Coincidence? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/hmmm.gif)

[Heat]

No wonder he's in hiding:

2.7.1) There is evidence ([http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-December/087744.html], [http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-December/087751.html]) that {{userlinks|Jayjg}} was involved in a conspiracy to affect Wikipedia content in violation of several policies (including, but not limited to, [[WP:CANVASS]], [[WP:MEAT]], and [[WP:EW]]).

2.7.2) Jayjg's actions regarding the matter addressed in 2.7.1 brought (or could reasonably have brought) Wikipedia into disrepute.

Question: If Jayjg is slapped with a ban on editing Israel related topics will he use his knowledge of CheckUser to create a sock that can evade detection?

[pedrito]

Question: If Jayjg is slapped with a ban on editing Israel related topics will he use his knowledge of CheckUser to create a sock that can evade detection?

Shouldn't we assume he's using a sock now? It's kind of hard to assume that he could go cold-turkey just like that... It shouldn't be too hard to correlate his ostrich-esque wiki-breaks against the activity of other accounts on his favourite articles.

Anybody with the time and skills for such an analysis?

Cheers, Pedrito

[Alex]

Question: If Jayjg is slapped with a ban on editing Israel related topics will he use his knowledge of CheckUser to create a sock that can evade detection?

Knowledge of checkuser is fairly meaningless really. It's no secret how it works, and any random Joe can set up a wiki and see what the output is like. There's no way he'll be able to sock without being caught though, because if he did primarily to edit Israel articles, a Jayjg-like editor would stand out too much.

[gomi]

Question: If Jayjg is slapped with a ban on editing Israel related topics will he use his knowledge of CheckUser to create a sock that can evade detection?

Shouldn't we assume he's using a sock now? It's kind of hard to assume that he could go cold-turkey just like that... It shouldn't be too hard to correlate his ostrich-esque wiki-breaks against the activity of other accounts on his favourite articles.

I think it is a mistake to assume that Jayjg is a wiki-obsessive like SlimVirgin or others. He is vastly more disciplined that virtually any other editor on Wikipedia, covers his tracks pretty well, and does his polticking in the background, via email.

While there is no specific evidence that Jayjg is paid to edit Wikipedia, he is a different sort of beast than those we normally deal with. He is much, much more interested in maintaining his long-term ability to influence his articles of interest than he is in the other dramas of the community.

There's no way he'll be able to sock without being caught though, because if he did primarily to edit Israel articles, a Jayjg-like editor would stand out too much.

There is already a small legion of distinct editors, like IronDuke, who will do whatever Jay tells them to do. If Jay were banned, the ranks of such distinct editors would swelll. Jay doesn't need to sock.

[Doc glasgow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Messiani...ioning_the_lead

I'm wondering about trying to bring some neutrality to the Messianic Judaism article at this point

I wonder who will watch my back?

[Milton Roe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Messiani...ioning_the_lead

I'm wondering about trying to bring some neutrality to the Messianic Judaism article at this point

I wonder who will watch my back?

You go, Yeshua, me boy. Keep your Matzos dry. But if you're going in, we don't wanna hear any lama sabachthanis. You know the local Sanhedrin there on en.wiki plays for keeps.

[EricBarbour]

You go, Yeshua, me boy. Keep your Matzos dry. But if you're going in, we don't wanna hear any lama sabachthanis. You know the local Sanhedrin there on en.wiki plays for keeps.

You's a funny funny guy.(IMG:http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss273/metasonix/SmileyGoneWrong.gif)

[Herschelkrustofsky]

There's no way he'll be able to sock without being caught though, because if he did primarily to edit Israel articles, a Jayjg-like editor would stand out too much.

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/mellow.gif) There have been plenty of Jayjg-like editors standing out for years at those articles.


(Reads further along in thread)

There is already a small legion of distinct editors, like IronDuke, who will do whatever Jay tells them to do. If Jay were banned, the ranks of such distinct editors would swelll. Jay doesn't need to sock.

Like he said.

[Son of a Yeti]

While there is no specific evidence that Jayjg is paid to edit Wikipedia, he is a different sort of beast than those we normally deal with. He is much, much more interested in maintaining his long-term ability to influence his articles of interest than he is in the other dramas of the community.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying his a voice of an Israeli organization, possibly even a government one?

(IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fear.gif)

[EricBarbour]

you're saying his a voice of an Israeli organization, possibly even a government one?

Jay certainly spends a lot of time making Wiki articles look Israel-friendly.
Many people doubt he would willingly do this for mere amusement.

[gomi]

While there is no specific evidence that Jayjg is paid to edit Wikipedia, he is a different sort of beast than those we normally deal with. He is much, much more interested in maintaining his long-term ability to influence his articles of interest than he is in the other dramas of the community.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying his a voice of an Israeli organization, possibly even a government one? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fear.gif)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence of any kind regarding Jayjg, his identity, or his affiliations. My comment should be read thusly: given a longitudinal study of his editing habits, his involvement in wiki-politics, his on-wiki associates, and other incidental evidence, Jayjg presents a profile very different from (e.g.) SlimVirgin, JzG, Ryulong, MONGO, or other assorted wiki-obsessives. His skill in manipulating people without crossing clear lines, his studied use of threats, his willingness and ability to act through others (both admin and regular editors), his astonishing skill at gaming the system, and -- perhaps most importantly -- his willingness to simply disappear from the conversation for long periods, would seem to indicate someone of a more professional nature than most wiki editors (who seem to have escaped from the Island of Misfit Toys or something).

But just so no one accuses me of slinging any slurs: I am not accusing Jayjg of being an "agent" of any organization. Whether or not he acts like one is a matter for well-informed individuals to conclude on their own.

[Newyorkbrad]

(Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny)

Jay has a habit of lobbying the Arbcom on the special-sooper-sekrit ArbCom mailing list so furiously that he has no time for mere editing.

I'm not commenting on this specific case, editor, or matter, but former arbitrators were removed from the ArbCom mailing list three months ago.

[gomi]

(Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny)

Jay has a habit of lobbying the Arbcom on the special-sooper-sekrit ArbCom mailing list so furiously that he has no time for mere editing.

I'm not commenting on this specific case, editor, or matter, but former arbitrators were removed from the ArbCom mailing list three months ago.

As I understand it, however, there remains a distinct list containing both current and former Arbcom members. True? And even if this were not the case, I'm sure the email addresses of all the current Arbcom members are well-known to Jayjg.

[Sarcasticidealist]

As I understand it, however, there remains a distinct list containing both current and former Arbcom members. True?

Yes, along with checkusers and oversighters.

[Lar]

As I understand it, however, there remains a distinct list containing both current and former Arbcom members. True?

Yes, along with checkusers and oversighters.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AC#functionaries-en (who is on it is public knowledge)

ObDisclaimer - that includes me.

[GlassBeadGame]

While there is no specific evidence that Jayjg is paid to edit Wikipedia, he is a different sort of beast than those we normally deal with. He is much, much more interested in maintaining his long-term ability to influence his articles of interest than he is in the other dramas of the community.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying his a voice of an Israeli organization, possibly even a government one? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/fear.gif)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence of any kind regarding Jayjg, his identity, or his affiliations. My comment should be read thusly: given a longitudinal study of his editing habits, his involvement in wiki-politics, his on-wiki associates, and other incidental evidence, Jayjg presents a profile very different from (e.g.) SlimVirgin, JzG, Ryulong, MONGO, or other assorted wiki-obsessives. His skill in manipulating people without crossing clear lines, his studied use of threats, his willingness and ability to act through others (both admin and regular editors), his astonishing skill at gaming the system, and -- perhaps most importantly -- his willingness to simply disappear from the conversation for long periods, would seem to indicate someone of a more professional nature than most wiki editors (who seem to have escaped from the Island of Misfit Toys or something).

But just so no one accuses me of slinging any slurs: I am not accusing Jayjg of being an "agent" of any organization. Whether or not he acts like one is a matter for well-informed individuals to conclude on their own.

I agree with this assessment from this high level of gamesmanship subject to two significant lapses. First, his completely amateurish commitment to the "Allegations of Apartheid"series of articles and second, his miscalculation of the reaction his attack on CharlotteWeb would bring followed by his SlimVirgin like defense on wikien-l .

[Son of a Yeti]

But just so no one accuses me of slinging any slurs: I am not accusing Jayjg of being an "agent" of any organization. Whether or not he acts like one is a matter for well-informed individuals to conclude on their own.

I'm not accusing you of anything. You simply changed my perception of Jayjg.

However I cannot promise I will not watch his future input for any signs of this. I'm not anti-Israeli but I prefer when governments are lobbied by private persons, not the other way.

[trenton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Messiani...ioning_the_lead

I'm wondering about trying to bring some neutrality to the Messianic Judaism article at this point

I wonder who will watch my back?

well, whoever volunteers is sure to become a bureaucrat and checkuser too just like the last guy

This post has been edited by trenton:

[Heat]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

[Viridae]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Wow, thats going to be interesting. Lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth on the workshop, but this arbcom seems to be far harder on repeat offenders than the previous incarnation (see also jpgordon's particular brand of wailing and gnashing of teeth)

[EricBarbour]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

[Cla68]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Jayjg is toast. The question now is, how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again? SV\HFO, do you have an opinion on the issue?

This post has been edited by Cla68:

[JohnA]

Kirill has proceeded to the voting stage with his proposals intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...oposed_decision

Amazing. That is one hard-assed Russian.
I must assume that Jay is frantically emailing all and sundry, begging for help. Perhaps he will finally pester Jimbo for special treatment one time too many, and (hey presto) the vote will be unanimous. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

Jayjg is toast. The question now is, how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again? SV\HFO, do you have an opinion on the issue?

Why would you want SV to comment? She's definitely part of the problem and not the solution.

[Son of a Yeti]

Jayjg is toast.

I fully agree. Especially if the account was simply an emanation of some Israeli sponsored group, as I suspected (on a hunch only, with no evidence).

Why would they need an account which is so obviously biased? They can always create several new ones.

This post has been edited by Son of a Yeti:

[Cla68]

Jayjg is toast.

I fully agree. Especially if the account was simply an emanation of some Israeli sponsored group, as I suspected (on a hunch only, with no evidence).

Why would they need an account which is so obvious as biased? They can always create several new ones.

If Jayjg is an Israeli-sponsored account, then that nation is truly a lost cause.

[Jon Awbrey]

Why would you want SV to comment? She's definitely part of the problem and not the solution.

Hence the Humour …

Ja Ja (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/boing.gif)

[KimvdLinde]

It is not yet sure all the arbitrators will follow suit. I can see these fail with one vote.

[Jon Awbrey]

Jayjg hasn't edited since April 8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Jayjg. Now while he stopped editing around the beginning of Passover he hasn't resumed editing since its end.

Has Jayjg decided to run to ground until the West Bank Arbcomm case is over (Jay has a habit of disappearing when he's under ArbComm scrutiny).

I'm guessing it's not so much Missing In Action as Knitting In Progress.

Ja Ja (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/boing.gif)

[Saltimbanco]

What fun!

Kiril's resolutions may indeed yet fall short, but I think there is a sea-change going on here.

Jayjg is almost certainly employed by an organization dedicated to promoting and defending Israel, but I think it is likely that he has successfully completed his assignment with regard to Wikipedia: Israel's legitimate fear, early on in the history of Wikipedia, was that it would become a broadly accepted and anti-Israeli information source. This could be countered in either of two ways: first, by making it pro-Israeli rather than anti-Israeli; or second, by keeping Wikipedia from becoming a broadly accepted information source. And I think clause two has been accomplished.

There will no doubt be ongoing pro-Israeli propaganda efforts at Wikipedia, but I think that the bigger guns have decided that there are more pressing issues at this point. Within a few weeks Jayjg will be working on setting a rationale by which Americans might think that an Israeli attack on Iran is a good thing or arguing that Israel's foreign minister isn't really a violent racist in spite of him being a violent racist. Or any number of other initiatives.

It's too bad Wikipedia's credibility was essentially allowed to collapse before the Jayjg problem, which has been obvious for several years, was addressed. In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg. And he's gotten what he deserves for it!

[EricBarbour]

Jayjg is almost certainly employed by an organization dedicated to promoting and defending Israel, but I think it is likely that he has successfully completed his assignment with regard to Wikipedia: Israel's legitimate fear, early on in the history of Wikipedia, was that it would become a broadly accepted and anti-Israeli information source. This could be countered in either of two ways: first, by making it pro-Israeli rather than anti-Israeli; or second, by keeping Wikipedia from becoming a broadly accepted information source. And I think clause two has been accomplished.

Thing is, they did a terrible job of this. It took years, and has resulted in considerable embarrassment for Zionist groups such as CAMERA, simply by being suspected of supporting Jay and Co. whether such support was real or not.

If I had to do this, I would have just paid some starving Indian or Pakistani students to run proxy servers with scripts to auto-vandalize Wikipedia articles. Probably would have been cheaper and quicker. In all likelihood, Jay and his little butt-buddies decided to whitewash Israel all by themselves, then found out later that someone would support them.....they still act like amateurs!

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

how does Wikipedia keep another Jayjg from happening again?

Depends on the Arbcom. If the kosher boys figure out how to get a couple people onto Arbcom, they might have a chance. But their reputation is in tatters, and the Gaza attacks in January have done immeasurable harm to Israel's reputation. The usual "you're an antisemite, you're a Holocaust denier" crap is not very effective anymore*. So it would be a superhuman job.

Wanna make sure it doesn't happen again?
Encourage Arabs to edit en-wiki.

*(Except when used against cowardly Washington politicians...)

This post has been edited by EricBarbour:

[Heat]

Depends on the Arbcom. If the kosher boys figure out how to get a couple people onto Arbcom, they might have a chance. But their reputation is in tatters, and the Gaza attacks in January have done immeasurable harm to Israel's reputation. The usual "you're an antisemite, you're a Holocaust denier" crap is not very effective anymore. So it would be a superhuman job.

Wanna make sure it doesn't happen again?
Encourage Arabs to edit en-wiki.

I'm sorry, I do have to object to the use of phrases like "kosher boy". I'm not sure what you mean but if you're saying anyone who is Jewish (or even anyone who is a religious Jew who keeps kosher) shouldn't be on ArbComm then you're completely off base, particularly when you consider that the guy writing Jayjg's sentence is a "kosher boy" named Kirill Lokshin.

[EricBarbour]

I'm sorry, I do have to object to the use of phrases like "kosher boy". I'm not sure what you mean but if you're saying anyone who is Jewish (or even anyone who is a religious Jew who keeps kosher) shouldn't be on ArbComm then you're completely off base, particularly when you consider that the guy writing Jayjg's sentence is a "kosher boy" named Kirill Lokshin.

You're misunderstanding me. Jews ought to be welcome on Arbcom, along with everyone else -- as long as they're not the Jayjg variety of sociopathic liars.

There are Arab Wikipedians who would run a similar POV scam, if they had adequate support. Ever been to Saudi Arabia? I have. If you try to bring a map or book showing or talking about Israel into that country, the airport censors (of which they have many) will black out all mention of Israel with large black permanent markers. Along with unclad women and other things that conservative Muslims find horrifying. Imagine what a group of Saudis, supported by their government, would do to en-wiki, given half a chance.....

I suspect the only way to keep Jayjg scandals from happening again would be to have a balance of Arabs and Jews on Arbcom.

(Sometimes I wonder what's going on in the Arabic Wikipedia. Thanks to the magic of Google Translate, you can read their article about Israel. You be the judge.)

[Eva Destruction]

(Sometimes I wonder what's going on in the Arabic Wikipedia. Thanks to the magic of Google Translate, you can read their article about Israel. You be the judge.)

That actually doesn't look too bad to me, I have to say (albeit through the Google Translate filter). I suspect that the odd-looking "War of 1948 (the war of occupation)" title isn't POV-pushing, but just a recognition of the fact that this is the name a lot of Arabic-speakers will know it by.

[Sarcasticidealist]

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

Occam's razor. Never assume shadowy conspiracy when things can be explained by garden variety friends helping friends. Jayjg was a prominent Wikipedian in Wikipedia's early days, and from what I can tell didn't rock the boat much. Jimbo generally seems strongly inclined to be friendly with such people, and he also seems strongly inclined to do favours to people he's friendly with. It's much more interesting to imagine that Jimbo's made some behind the scenes deal with a global political lobby, but it's also a completely unnecessary assumption.

(Incidentally, the failure to follow Occam's razor is probably the thing that frustrates me most about Wikipedia criticism around here. Mostly, it manifests itself in the tendency to ascribe everything that is wrong with Wikipedia to the workings of some shadowy cabal, when the truth is usually both duller and extremely obvious. But I've whined about this before.)

(Also - and this is going to sound weaselly, but it's the truth - I've never followed Jayjg's editing at all, so I have no idea whether or not he's the problem he's being made out to be. Certainly people around here seem pretty unanimous on that point, but I didn't want this post to be interpreted as my joining in that unanimity, when in fact I'm quite cheerfully ignorant on the question.)

[The Adversary]

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

Don´t know anything about Jimbo doing some deal, but appointing Jayjg for arb.com, in front of other candidates who had received more votes (like Mirv) surely don´t count as Jimbo´s finest moment. And it was challenged. If has also been discussed in this tread.

[Cla68]

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

Occam's razor. Never assume shadowy conspiracy when things can be explained by garden variety friends helping friends. Jayjg was a prominent Wikipedian in Wikipedia's early days, and from what I can tell didn't rock the boat much. Jimbo generally seems strongly inclined to be friendly with such people, and he also seems strongly inclined to do favours to people he's friendly with. It's much more interesting to imagine that Jimbo's made some behind the scenes deal with a global political lobby, but it's also a completely unnecessary assumption.

(Incidentally, the failure to follow Occam's razor is probably the thing that frustrates me most about Wikipedia criticism around here. Mostly, it manifests itself in the tendency to ascribe everything that is wrong with Wikipedia to the workings of some shadowy cabal, when the truth is usually both duller and extremely obvious. But I've whined about this before.)

(Also - and this is going to sound weaselly, but it's the truth - I've never followed Jayjg's editing at all, so I have no idea whether or not he's the problem he's being made out to be. Certainly people around here seem pretty unanimous on that point, but I didn't want this post to be interpreted as my joining in that unanimity, when in fact I'm quite cheerfully ignorant on the question.)

Jayjg was an effective administrator when he wasn't busy trying to save Israel.

[Milton Roe]

Jayjg was an effective administrator when he wasn't busy trying to save Israel.

Since Israel has many many thermonuclear weapons, WTF do they need Jayjg for? That's the problem with all these really bad, bad WP admins: they're essentially narcissists. Really.

[EricBarbour]

Don´t know anything about Jimbo doing some deal, but appointing Jayjg for arb.com, in front of other candidates who had received more votes (like Mirv) surely don´t count as Jimbo´s finest moment. And it was challenged. If has also been discussed in this tread.

Yep, if anyone ever needs a quote that shows Jimbo's high-handedness and love of buttsnorkeling, that discussion would be ideal.

Perhaps your view of the popularity of the ArbCom is influenced by the fact that you've been sanctioned by them for your behavior. I think if you step outside your own situation, you'll see that the main "popularity" problem the ArbCom has is that they have been, on the whole, much more patient than many people feel they should have been.

But this is really beside the point. The ArbCom really ought to feel comfortable making decisions regardless of popularity. It strikes me as particularly unwise for the decisions on user behavior to become a popularity contest. We're here to write an encyclopedia, not to be a mobocracy.--Jimbo Wales 09:55, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Nice work, Jimmy-poo. Instead of a "mobocracy", you have an idiocracy. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/laugh.gif)

[A User]

Maybe Jayjg is at this conference?

"Wikipedia editors say 'problematic' coverage of Israel reflects discourse"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082777.html

This post has been edited by WikiWatch:

[Shalom]

Jayjg was an effective administrator when he wasn't busy trying to save Israel.

Since Israel has many many thermonuclear weapons, WTF do they need Jayjg for? That's the problem with all these really bad, bad WP admins: they're essentially narcissists. Really.

Hamas has many many Qassam rockets. WTF do they need Nishidani/PalestineRemembered/whoever for? That's the problem with all these really, really bad WR regulars: they're essentially making false and irrelevant points. Really.

[Cla68]

Maybe Jayjg is at this conference?

"Wikipedia editors say 'problematic' coverage of Israel reflects discourse"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082777.html

I assume that Eli Hacohen is the IP involved in this discussion. Actually, I've found myself that information in Wikipedia that puts Iran in a bad light usually disappears immediately.

Anyway, I wonder if any of the Wikiproject Israel editors are attending that conference.

[Milton Roe]

Jayjg was an effective administrator when he wasn't busy trying to save Israel.

Since Israel has many many thermonuclear weapons, WTF do they need Jayjg for? That's the problem with all these really bad, bad WP admins: they're essentially narcissists. Really.

Hamas has many many Qassam rockets. WTF do they need Nishidani/PalestineRemembered/whoever for? That's the problem with all these really, really bad WR regulars: they're essentially making false and irrelevant points. Really.

You compare a Qassam to a nuclear weapon? Israel has so many extra levels of offense and defense that its only real problem is paying for it all. So far, the US has never seriously considered not helping to foot the bill. All this set in stone long before Wikipedia.

[Saltimbanco]

In all likelihood, Jimbo made some sort of an exchange to promote and protect Jayjg.

This has been suspected for a looong time.

Occam's razor. Never assume shadowy conspiracy when things can be explained by garden variety friends helping friends. Jayjg was a prominent Wikipedian in Wikipedia's early days, and from what I can tell didn't rock the boat much. Jimbo generally seems strongly inclined to be friendly with such people, and he also seems strongly inclined to do favours to people he's friendly with. It's much more interesting to imagine that Jimbo's made some behind the scenes deal with a global political lobby, but it's also a completely unnecessary assumption.

(Incidentally, the failure to follow Occam's razor is probably the thing that frustrates me most about Wikipedia criticism around here. Mostly, it manifests itself in the tendency to ascribe everything that is wrong with Wikipedia to the workings of some shadowy cabal, when the truth is usually both duller and extremely obvious. But I've whined about this before.)

(Also - and this is going to sound weaselly, but it's the truth - I've never followed Jayjg's editing at all, so I have no idea whether or not he's the problem he's being made out to be. Certainly people around here seem pretty unanimous on that point, but I didn't want this post to be interpreted as my joining in that unanimity, when in fact I'm quite cheerfully ignorant on the question.)

Occam's Razor leads me to conclude that you are an ill-mannered idiot based on these comments. Although, admittedly, it would be much more interesting to speculate that you would comment on something you claim to know very little about -- discounting the opinions of others with whom, based apparently on hardly any evidence, you disagree -- because you're part of some shadowy cabal or a global political lobby.

Naaaah! Much more likely that you're just an ill-mannered idiot. But thanks anyway for playing!

[gomi]

Jayjg was an effective administrator when he wasn't busy trying to save Israel.

Since Israel has many many thermonuclear weapons, WTF do they need Jayjg for? That's the problem with all these really bad, bad WP admins: they're essentially narcissists. Really.

I guess then they don't need AIPAC, WINEP, CAMERA, JINSA. or the JCPA, either. But they've got them, and someone is paying for them.

I don't think anyone is saying here that Israel shouldn't be allowed to influence public opinion. Nor, for that matter, should the Palestinians generally or Hamas in particular. We can, however, disagree with -- or even detest -- the means they use to influence opinion. Secret lobbying of U.S. legislators by foreign governments (even allied ones) is reprehensible, and often illegal. Terrorism, as a form of public influence, is detestable and usually counter-productive.

The issue here is not support for Israel or Palestine. That conflict and attendant debate long predates Wikipedia, the Internet, and very nearly the stored-program digital computer. Intelligent and well-informed minds disagree on nearly every aspect of it.

The issue is whether Wikipedia, putatively an "encyclopedia" and therefore by implication "neutral" or unbiased, should be used as a vehicle for the propaganda of either side in this or any conflict. An important secondary issue is the use of power within the arcane wiki-society to protect and promulgate this propaganda.

The underlying Wikipedia situation here is no different than Northern Ireland, the Armenian genocide, Sri Lanka, the Thai monarchy, or (no doubt) countless domains of conflict of which I am unaware. What distinguishes it is the extreme power wielded by one partisan in the Israel/Palestine conflict area, and the skill with which he uses that power to ban opponents, amass minions, and stifle debate.

I am pleased that Jayjg may get a mild comeuppance in the current RFAR, but if he doesn't lose his admin bits altogether, I am doubtful that much will change.

[gomi]

Moderator's note: Please use this thread to discuss Jayjg, Wikipedia, and his adminship, not the Middle East. If you want to have a general discussion, move it to the Politics forum.

[Heat]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

The loss of his privileges seems to be more of a battle. There are now two proposals - both would strip him of his functionary tools but one thanks him for his "years of service". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req..._and_privileges

Proposal A has 3 votes, proposal B has 4 votes (Kirill has voted for both) so 6 arbs in total are voting for a proposal that would strip Jayjg. So one more arb needs to comes on board for Jay to lose his supertools (assuming John Vandenberg and Rlevse, who have voted for A, give B a nod as their second choice).

[Doc glasgow]

In an attempt to get the community to make its views clear to arbcom, I've launched the RfC that one arb hinted at.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

[Shalom]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

Yes, his work on synagogues is not nearly as controversial.

[gomi]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

Yes, his work on synagogues is not nearly as controversial.

I think this will be a telling test of jay's character. If he comes back and beavers away at synagogue articles, while maintaining his low level of administrative activity, that will say that he is more of a wiki-addict than we suspected; if he comes back and begins a flurry of blocks, bans, and checkuser results related to his (now forbidden) I/P articles, that will prove his widely-known POV, and likely continue to cause drama; and if he goes away entirely, that will demonstrate that he was using the synagogue articles as protective coloration for his more pointed activities.

[Shalom]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

Yes, his work on synagogues is not nearly as controversial.

I think this will be a telling test of jay's character. If he comes back and beavers away at synagogue articles, while maintaining his low level of administrative activity, that will say that he is more of a wiki-addict than we suspected; if he comes back and begins a flurry of blocks, bans, and checkuser results related to his (now forbidden) I/P articles, that will prove his widely-known POV, and likely continue to cause drama; and if he goes away entirely, that will demonstrate that he was using the synagogue articles as protective coloration for his more pointed activities.

He could go away entirely for any reason. He might relocate to a place without computers. Who knows?

[Rhindle]

He could go away entirely for any reason. He might relocate to a place without computers. Who knows?

He might go to Hollywood and try to be a movie star!

This post has been edited by Rhindle:

[written by he who wrote it]

He could go away entirely for any reason. He might relocate to a place without computers. Who knows?

He could have been killed or abducted by the Saucer Men. Least hypothesis.

[Heat]

So what are the odds Jay will wriggle out of this one?

This post has been edited by Heat:

[The Joy]

Since when do Arbitrators listen to all the rabble on the talk pages? Judges don't ask the audience for help in the sentencing.

[Sarcasticidealist]

I think this will be a telling test of jay's character. If he comes back and beavers away at synagogue articles, while maintaining his low level of administrative activity, that will say that he is more of a wiki-addict than we suspected; if he comes back and begins a flurry of blocks, bans, and checkuser results related to his (now forbidden) I/P articles, that will prove his widely-known POV, and likely continue to cause drama; and if he goes away entirely, that will demonstrate that he was using the synagogue articles as protective coloration for his more pointed activities.

Yeah! And then we can ask him if he's stopped beating his wife!

[Heat]

The threshold for a majority crept up from 7 to 8 so it looked like Jay may get away but thanks to Risker there is now again a majority of arbs in favor of giving Jay a topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted

Question now is will an editor who has now warned, cautioned, advised, reminded by ArbComm several times over misdeeds before finally being slapped with sanctions still be able to be said to be a "trusted user" in "good standing" who has the confidence of the community needed to wield tools such as CU and oversight, let alone the banhammer?

Maybe not, Casliber has regained his cojones after sitting on the fence for a few days and there are now seven arbs in favor of stripping Jay of his functionary status http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...nd_privileges_2 One more and he's toast.

ADDENDUM: And Roger Davies is the clincher. Goodbye Jay!

This post has been edited by Heat:

[Cla68]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

Yes, his work on synagogues is not nearly as controversial.

I think this will be a telling test of jay's character. If he comes back and beavers away at synagogue articles, while maintaining his low level of administrative activity, that will say that he is more of a wiki-addict than we suspected; if he comes back and begins a flurry of blocks, bans, and checkuser results related to his (now forbidden) I/P articles, that will prove his widely-known POV, and likely continue to cause drama; and if he goes away entirely, that will demonstrate that he was using the synagogue articles as protective coloration for his more pointed activities.

He needs to admit that he was wrong, apologize, and promise to do better. If he doesn't do this, then he'll need to still be continually watched, because it means that he doesn't think that he has done anything wrong. That doesn't mean he needs to be "Wikihounded", it just means that an eye needs to be kept on him.

[Heat]

Jayjg has earned (and I do mean *earned*) himself an I/P topic ban http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Req...ayjg_restricted deciding vote was none other than former ally FloNight.

Since, as Gomi has noted, Jayjg's activity at WP was all about a highly disciplined and monomaniacal crusade to OWN those articles, does he have any reason to remain at the project?

Yes, his work on synagogues is not nearly as controversial.

I think this will be a telling test of jay's character. If he comes back and beavers away at synagogue articles, while maintaining his low level of administrative activity, that will say that he is more of a wiki-addict than we suspected; if he comes back and begins a flurry of blocks, bans, and checkuser results related to his (now forbidden) I/P articles, that will prove his widely-known POV, and likely continue to cause drama; and if he goes away entirely, that will demonstrate that he was using the synagogue articles as protective coloration for his more pointed activities.

He needs to admit that he was wrong, apologize, and promise to do better. If he doesn't do this, then he'll need to still be continually watched, because it means that he doesn't think that he has done anything wrong. That doesn't mean he needs to be "Wikihounded", it just means that an eye needs to be kept on him.

Jay has been caught before and he's never admitted that he war wrong, apologized or promised to mend his ways - not even in response to various Arbcom rulings "reminding" or "admonishing" him. If he had the ability to take responsibility it wouldn't have come to this.

[Milton Roe]

So what are the odds Jay will wriggle out of this one?

Have you taken a good look at Jayjg's first two edits in Jan 2003?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=11012037

He's clearly a sock from some previous editor, weighing on some article on attrocities (one suspects it had a few Israeli ones). He suggests speedy deletion under VfD. Not a virgin editor. His second is to "explain" that sockpuppets can be merely alternate accounts, and not returns of banned users. Which is to say, that's what his Jayjg account is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=10990734


His previous personna before Jan 2003 is the key to his identity. He doesn't make another Jayjg edit for 17 months till June 2004. Then the deluge of pro-Israel POV pushing begins with a huge edit rate. So who was he in those 17 months, and who before Jan 2003. We simply need to scan some likely middle East and Jewish edit wars in 2001 and 2002 to guess. WP was a simpler place then-- there werent' that many characters. User:RK gets my vote as Jayjg clone, though I don't think they're the same person.

Jayjg still hasn't edited since April 8, BTW. My guess is he's moved back to his pre-2003 other username.

[EricBarbour]

User:RK gets my vote as Jayjg clone, though I don't think they're the same person.
Jayjg still hasn't edited since April 8, BTW. My guess is he's moved back to his pre-2003 other username.

I dunno, RK is the best candidate I've seen yet. He's as Zionistic as anyone else on WP.
And he's just as prone to fight with people, and delete things he doesn't like, as Jay ever was.

This post has been edited by EricBarbour:

[Kevin]

So what are the odds Jay will wriggle out of this one?

Have you taken a good look at Jayjg's first two edits in Jan 2003?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=11012037

He's clearly a sock from some previous editor, weighing on some article on attrocities (one suspects it had a few Israeli ones). He suggests speedy deletion under VfD. Not a virgin editor. His second is to "explain" that sockpuppets can be merely alternate accounts, and not returns of banned users. Which is to say, that's what his Jayjg account is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=10990734


His previous personna before Jan 2003 is the key to his identity. He doesn't make another Jayjg edit for 17 months till June 2004. Then the deluge of pro-Israel POV pushing begins with a huge edit rate. So who was he in those 17 months, and who before Jan 2003. We simply need to scan some likely middle East and Jewish edit wars in 2001 and 2002 to guess. WP was a simpler place then-- there werent' that many characters. User:RK gets my vote as Jayjg clone, though I don't think they're the same person.

Jayjg still hasn't edited since April 8, BTW. My guess is he's moved back to his pre-2003 other username.

Those edits are from March 2005, and some database issue has knocked them back into 2003. Check the signature timestamps of the edits either side. I think his first Jayjg edit was this one from June 2004.

[No one of consequence]

So what are the odds Jay will wriggle out of this one?

Have you taken a good look at Jayjg's first two edits in Jan 2003?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=11012037

He's clearly a sock from some previous editor, weighing on some article on attrocities (one suspects it had a few Israeli ones). He suggests speedy deletion under VfD. Not a virgin editor. His second is to "explain" that sockpuppets can be merely alternate accounts, and not returns of banned users. Which is to say, that's what his Jayjg account is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=10990734


His previous personna before Jan 2003 is the key to his identity. He doesn't make another Jayjg edit for 17 months till June 2004. Then the deluge of pro-Israel POV pushing begins with a huge edit rate. So who was he in those 17 months, and who before Jan 2003. We simply need to scan some likely middle East and Jewish edit wars in 2001 and 2002 to guess. WP was a simpler place then-- there werent' that many characters. User:RK gets my vote as Jayjg clone, though I don't think they're the same person.

Jayjg still hasn't edited since April 8, BTW. My guess is he's moved back to his pre-2003 other username.

Those edits are from March 2005, and some database issue has knocked them back into 2003. Check the signature timestamps of the edits either side. I think his first Jayjg edit was this one from June 2004.

Right. This has come up before, although I don't remember the explanation.

[Rhindle]

It would also be good to consider how many edits could have been oversighted for whatever reason.

[Kato]

Correct. There some massive oversight of early Jayjg edits which explains why Milton is misreading the results now. I think Wordbomb had some info on it after he made a datadump of the whole site a couple of years ago.

It was discussed before and can be found in the WR archives somewhere.

[Somey]

It was discussed before and can be found in the WR archives somewhere.

This thread has some of it, from August 2007. I believe there's more of the same in other threads, at least two of which have been tarpitted because they contained a bit too much speculation as to his identity.

I, for one, am still willing to believe that Mr. Jayjg isn't being paid or employed (or whatever) by the Israeli lobby or some other pro-Israeli group, and that the evidence we have of tag-teaming and such are indicative only of the cooperation of like-minded people. But given what we know, I don't think it's "crazy" to believe otherwise - "somewhat fanciful" might be a better term for it, if one is just going to dismiss it as improbable.

Most likely, he's just some guy in his early 20's who combines the three characteristics required: staunch pro-Israel advocacy, internet addiction (and plenty of free time to feed it), and most importantly the kind of raw cleverness, intelligence, and self-discipline necessary to restrict himself to that one topic area (to avoid making enemies needlessly, or for that matter, unwanted friends). The first two things are very common, the last is extremely unusual for a long-term Wiki-addict.

[No one of consequence]

Correct. There some massive oversight of early Jayjg edits which explains why Milton is misreading the results now. I think Wordbomb had some info on it after he made a datadump of the whole site a couple of years ago.

It was discussed before and can be found in the WR archives somewhere.

I'm confused, are you concerned about edits by Jayjg that were oversighted (by himself or others) or edits by other people that were oversighted by Jayjg. My recollection is that there was some controversy over the latter, and that an earlier incarnation of Arbcom gave him a pass on it (much to the annoyance of some of the developers, if I recall correctly).

This post has been edited by No one of consequence:

[Milton Roe]

So what are the odds Jay will wriggle out of this one?

Have you taken a good look at Jayjg's first two edits in Jan 2003?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=11012037

He's clearly a sock from some previous editor, weighing on some article on attrocities (one suspects it had a few Israeli ones). He suggests speedy deletion under VfD. Not a virgin editor. His second is to "explain" that sockpuppets can be merely alternate accounts, and not returns of banned users. Which is to say, that's what his Jayjg account is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...&oldid=10990734


His previous personna before Jan 2003 is the key to his identity. He doesn't make another Jayjg edit for 17 months till June 2004. Then the deluge of pro-Israel POV pushing begins with a huge edit rate. So who was he in those 17 months, and who before Jan 2003. We simply need to scan some likely middle East and Jewish edit wars in 2001 and 2002 to guess. WP was a simpler place then-- there werent' that many characters. User:RK gets my vote as Jayjg clone, though I don't think they're the same person.

Jayjg still hasn't edited since April 8, BTW. My guess is he's moved back to his pre-2003 other username.

Those edits are from March 2005, and some database issue has knocked them back into 2003. Check the signature timestamps of the edits either side. I think his first Jayjg edit was this one from June 2004.

Ah. I should have been tipped off by the LOOONG pause and the fact that the first edits are so close to the beginning of a new year. Obviously a malfunctioning-server timestamp problem. Synchronicitously, of the very sort that was just being discussed in another thread.

Yep, golly, all his early edits have been oversighted. I wonder who would do THAT for him?

[gomi]

... some guy in his early 20's who combines ... internet addiction ... [and] ... self-discipline

Somey, you never struck me as someone who believes in unicorns. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif) What you're describing is at least as rare.

... the last is extremely unusual for a long-term Wiki-addict.

Not to mention 20-somethings. I would say this particular scenario, while remotely possible, is highly unlikely.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

Correct. There some massive oversight of early Jayjg edits which explains why Milton is misreading the results now. I think Wordbomb had some info on it after he made a datadump of the whole site a couple of years ago.

It was discussed before and can be found in the WR archives somewhere.

I'm confused, are you concerned about edits by Jayjg that were oversighted (by himself or others) or edits by other people that were oversighted by Jayjg. My recollection is that there was some controversy over the latter, and that an earlier incarnation of Arbcom gave him a pass on it (much to the annoyance of some of the developers, if I recall correctly).

If memory serves, Jayjg was something of a trailblazer in both categories. There was some cover-up of Jayjg's early exploits, and then I believe he put these same techniques to use in the famed SlimVirgin/Lockerbie caper.

If there are any flawed details in either of our recollections, I'm sure that some WR stalwarts will come forward to set the record straight.

[No one of consequence]

I'm confused, are you concerned about edits by Jayjg that were oversighted (by himself or others) or edits by other people that were oversighted by Jayjg. My recollection is that there was some controversy over the latter, and that an earlier incarnation of Arbcom gave him a pass on it (much to the annoyance of some of the developers, if I recall correctly).

If memory serves, Jayjg was something of a trailblazer in both categories. There was some cover-up of Jayjg's early exploits, and then I believe he put these same techniques to use in the famed SlimVirgin/Lockerbie caper.

If there are any flawed details in either of our recollections, I'm sure that some WR stalwarts will come forward to set the record straight.

Well, speaking for myself and not as a "functionary", I recall that Wordbomb got hold of some data dumps and deduced that someone had erased a lot of edits by SlimVirgin. There was a hue and cry on Wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, and IRC (where I was when it broke). I probably shouldn't say more because I don't remember what parts were told to me in which fora, and I don't want to inadvertently break a confidence. I'm sure the whole story is there waiting to be re-linked to.

Speaking as a functionary, I will say that the number of Jayjg's own edits that have been oversighted is extremely small, and there is no evidence of abuse.

[Nerd]

Speaking as a functionary, I will say that the number of Jayjg's own edits that have been oversighted is extremely small, and there is no evidence of abuse.

What possible reason would there be for his own edits to be oversighted? What's he trying to hide?

[No one of consequence]

Speaking as a functionary, I will say that the number of Jayjg's own edits that have been oversighted is extremely small, and there is no evidence of abuse.

What possible reason would there be for his own edits to be oversighted? What's he trying to hide?

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

I can see how that would create a crisis for someone as doggedly incognito as Jayjg. Do the plebians have that option as well?

Speaking as a functionary, I will say that the number of Jayjg's own edits that have been oversighted is extremely small, and there is no evidence of abuse.

What possible reason would there be for his own edits to be oversighted? What's he trying to hide?

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

[No one of consequence]

Speaking as a functionary, I will say that the number of Jayjg's own edits that have been oversighted is extremely small, and there is no evidence of abuse.

What possible reason would there be for his own edits to be oversighted? What's he trying to hide?

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

I can see how that would create a crisis for someone as doggedly incognito as Jayjg. Do the plebians have that option as well?

Yes.

[Milton Roe]

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

I can see how that would create a crisis for someone as doggedly incognito as Jayjg. Do the plebians have that option as well?

Yes.

Okay, so how is it exercised? Do you have to go crying to the oversight sysop every time you do it? By email, presumably? Or maybe let your IP edits build up for a month each time, so as not to bug them too much? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

[One]

Well, speaking for myself and not as a "functionary", I recall that Wordbomb got hold of some data dumps and deduced that someone had erased a lot of edits by SlimVirgin. There was a hue and cry on Wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, and IRC (where I was when it broke). I probably shouldn't say more because I don't remember what parts were told to me in which fora, and I don't want to inadvertently break a confidence. I'm sure the whole story is there waiting to be re-linked to.

Wait, when exactly did this break? Can someone pinpoint a date?

[Jon Awbrey]

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

In udder weirds —

Trust Us, We're Always Transparent (WP:TUWAT)

Ja Ja (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/boing.gif)

[No one of consequence]

Well, speaking for myself and not as a "functionary", I recall that Wordbomb got hold of some data dumps and deduced that someone had erased a lot of edits by SlimVirgin. There was a hue and cry on Wikipedia, Wikipedia Review, and IRC (where I was when it broke). I probably shouldn't say more because I don't remember what parts were told to me in which fora, and I don't want to inadvertently break a confidence. I'm sure the whole story is there waiting to be re-linked to.

Wait, when exactly did this break? Can someone pinpoint a date?

On-wiki here. The off-wiki evidence is hosted here. Oddly, the link back to Wordbomb's blog is a dead link, I wonder if he removed a post and if so, why. Part of the dispute on-wiki was over SlimVirgin's sockpuppet Sweet Blue Water (drastically overblown, IMO) and part of the dispute was on the use of oversight. Check the arbcom-L archives for discussion around that time.

[Newyorkbrad]

Check the arbcom-L archives for discussion around that time.

I did quite a double-take when I read that sentence here, until I remembered whom you were talking to. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/smile.gif)

[Somey]

On-wiki here. The off-wiki evidence is hosted here. Oddly, the link back to Wordbomb's blog is a dead link, I wonder if he removed a post and if so, why. Part of the dispute on-wiki was over SlimVirgin's sockpuppet Sweet Blue Water (drastically overblown, IMO) and part of the dispute was on the use of oversight. Check the arbcom-L archives for discussion around that time.

The initial WR discussion of Mr. Wordbomb's database dumps and the oversighted Slimv edits is in the One SlimVirgin Question Answered thread, which was about three weeks before the AN/I thread. I may be mistaken, but AFAIK he removed some of the SlimVirgin (but not Gary Weiss, natch) material from AntiSocial.net, perhaps as part of some sort of truce deal - that would have been about 8 months ago, IIRC.

[No one of consequence]

In a couple of cases he accidentally edited while logged out, which is a routine reason for oversight. I can't say anything about other cases but they are reasonable and within policy.

I can see how that would create a crisis for someone as doggedly incognito as Jayjg. Do the plebians have that option as well?

Yes.

Okay, so how is it exercised? Do you have to go crying to the oversight sysop every time you do it? By email, presumably? Or maybe let your IP edits build up for a month each time, so as not to bug them too much? (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/ermm.gif)

Ask nicely.

I may be mistaken, but AFAIK he removed some of the SlimVirgin (but not Gary Weiss, natch) material from AntiSocial.net, perhaps as part of some sort of truce deal - that would have been about 8 months ago, IIRC.

If true, that was very decent of him.

[Herschelkrustofsky]

This 2-year-old post asserts that the Lockerbie oversights were one of the very first uses of the oversight capability. There are some links to deleted WP edits -- maybe an admin can reveal what is there, unless those, too, have been oversighted.

[Random832]

I am not saying that I would if I could, but I would like to note that it is difficult to correlate the url a diff had while it was visible to the one it has while deleted, since the latter is accessed by timestamp rather than revision id.

[Heat]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

[No one of consequence]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

I believe One/Cool Hand Luke has been asked this a couple of times and his answer has been "ask me on wiki" which, under the circumstance, I agree with. So far no one seems to have taken him up on it.

I'm also not sure there is any benefit to answering the question at all. It would likely not satisfy anyone (whatever the explanation, he did get it back), it can not impact on current wiki "governance" issues (since he no longer has it anyway), and might only serve to give his critics one more reason to dance on his grave, figuratively speaking. Yes, some people's curiosity might be satisfied, but it that enough reason to answer?

In any event, the people who likely have access to the information are the current arbitrators only.

[Milton Roe]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

Maybe, but if so, he oversighted it. (IMG:smilys0b23ax56/default/biggrin.gif)

[tarantino]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

What's the deal with your extensive editing of the Pierre Salinger bio shortly after Slim joined WP? Is that when you guys first started bumping heads?

[Viridae]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

I believe One/Cool Hand Luke has been asked this a couple of times and his answer has been "ask me on wiki" which, under the circumstance, I agree with. So far no one seems to have taken him up on it.

I'm also not sure there is any benefit to answering the question at all. It would likely not satisfy anyone (whatever the explanation, he did get it back), it can not impact on current wiki "governance" issues (since he no longer has it anyway), and might only serve to give his critics one more reason to dance on his grave, figuratively speaking. Yes, some people's curiosity might be satisfied, but it that enough reason to answer?

In any event, the people who likely have access to the information are the current arbitrators only.

I'm more interested in who thought it was a good idea to give it back again. One incident of abuse that leads to a high level tool like that being removed is breaking trust. To have it removed repeatedly is beyond ridiculous.

[Milton Roe]

I'm more interested in who thought it was a good idea to give it back again. One incident of abuse that leads to a high level tool like that being removed is breaking trust. To have it removed repeatedly is beyond ridiculous.

That's Wikipedia-- beyond ridiculous. Sometimes that's why we can only describe: it's beyond ridicule.

In Jayjg's case, though, see the "I'm in with Jimbo" made-man syndrome. Went on for many years. Moreover, if our little blue-Jay is really female and Jimbo was doing er, HER, then this would be even more neatly explained.

[sbrown]

Moreover, if our little blue-Jay is really female and Jimbo was doing er, HER, then this would be even more neatly explained.

Did I see once that Jayjg was Canadian? Cant find it now. If so we know what Jimbo thinks of Canadians.

[Milton Roe]

Moreover, if our little blue-Jay is really female and Jimbo was doing er, HER, then this would be even more neatly explained.

Did I see once that Jayjg was Canadian? Cant find it now. If so we know what Jimbo thinks of Canadians.

He seems to speak French and there was a suggestion of Canadian editing which I can't remember (probably something subject related). The presumption is that (s)he might be French-Canadian.

However, from the general editing pattern, I really doubt he's a woman. Though he could well have no family life and/or be gay. There's something vaguely testosterone-ish about maniacal creation of stubs about synogogues, which are organization/things; whereas there's something vaguely "feminine/gay" about maniacal creation of stubs about living people. Something to do with shared outlook on life.

Besides, I don't think we've seen much radical Israeli POV pushing from women. It's possibly too militaristic and the Palastinians are not entirely undeserving of empathy. The Israeli women who hate Palestinians have more conservative family things to do than edit Wikipedia-- the Israeli POV thing is mostly American, and done by people who don't have much better to do than talk politics or anarchy. Testosterone.

"Stereotyper" Milt
Writing with characteristically muscular style since 2008.

[Cla68]

Perhaps, in the interests of transparency, someone can explain why Jayjg had previously lost his oversight bit twice before finally losing it permanently a few weeks ago? Was he ever sanctioned or warned over his use of oversight?

I believe One/Cool Hand Luke has been asked this a couple of times and his answer has been "ask me on wiki" which, under the circumstance, I agree with. So far no one seems to have taken him up on it.

I'm also not sure there is any benefit to answering the question at all. It would likely not satisfy anyone (whatever the explanation, he did get it back), it can not impact on current wiki "governance" issues (since he no longer has it anyway), and might only serve to give his critics one more reason to dance on his grave, figuratively speaking. Yes, some people's curiosity might be satisfied, but it that enough reason to answer?

In any event, the people who likely have access to the information are the current arbitrators only.

From what you know, having a more "insider" view of Wikipedia's administration than most of us, do you personally feel that the issues surrounding Jayjg's abuse, or allegations of abuse, of admin privileges and his POV-pushing have been adequately, appropriately, and timely addressed by Wikipedia's governing authorities? If not, what do you think should have been done differently?