tl;dr summary:
*Backstory (not included) Jossi promises to really really leave WP, srsly
*Will, Tiptoety and FT2 get down to sleuthing and find socks
*They tease AC but refuse to give them data
*Angst ensues
*Rlevse confirms Jossi is being naughty
*FT2 still refuses to play nice with AC
*AC blocks Pergamino
*Jossi fesses up
*AC has penis envy when Viridae blocks Jossi before them
and on and on for a month or so more. These idiots are bloody boring with their wishy washy self interest.
**************************************************************
From tiptoety at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 01:15:09 2009
From: tiptoety at gmail.com (Tiptoety)
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:15:09 -0700
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
Message-ID: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com>
Will Beback recently contacted me about his suspicion that User:Jossi is now
editing under a new account and is disrupting the Prem Rawat topic. He sent
myself and FT2 a very long list of evidence and I have spent the last week
reviewing it. I have come to the conlusion that Jossi is in fact operating
another account. That account is User:Pergamino and is heavily involved in
editing Prem Rawat related material. Should the committe wish to continue to
explore this, I can ask Will if he would be willing to forward the evidence
on to you guys, but as of now he has asked it remain private.
Thank you,
Tiptoety
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Wed Jun 10 12:51:29 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:51:29 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com>
<3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Kirill Lokshin<kirill.lokshin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Tiptoety <tiptoety at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Will Beback recently contacted me about his suspicion that User:Jossi is
>> now editing under a new account and is disrupting the Prem Rawat topic. He
>> sent myself and FT2 a very long list of evidence and I have spent the last
>> week reviewing it. I have come to the conlusion that Jossi is in fact
>> operating another account. That account is User:Pergamino and is heavily
>> involved in editing Prem Rawat related material. Should the committe wish to
>> continue to explore this, I can ask Will if he would be willing to forward
>> the evidence on to you guys, but as of now he has asked it remain private.
>
> Thank you for letting us know; we'll consider this and decide how we want to
> proceed.
Should we:
(a) Ask FT2 what he thinks?
(b) Ask Tiptoety to send us his analysis?
© Ask Will Beback to send us his analysis?
And then, if the evidence stacks up, ask User:Pergamino to explain themselves?
For my part, I'm not entirely convinced it will be possible to
definitively identify who is operating the Pergamino account (though
the evidence may show otherwise). My view is that if the account is
being disruptive, ban it for disruption and keep quiet on the Jossi
angle, keep the evidence, and wait to see what happens next.
We should remember that Will Beback himself was recently wikilawyering
a block he received in this topic area.
Carcharoth
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:03:13 2009
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:03:13 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com>
<3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0906100603m14f33b71s7bfba011e4b8a621@mail.gmail.com>
Yes, we need to follow up.
FT2 needs to share what he has. (He has been looking into it since May 1).
And also we need to get an independent analysis from another Checkuser. Then
ArbCom can look at the information and decide.
Sydney
From casliber01 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 14:33:36 2009
From: casliber01 at yahoo.com (Cas Liber)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com>
<3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <196185.16066.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
shall we place it all on the WP page? We really need to sort it out - Will bebacks material before looked compelling to a noob/neophyte like me before...but will happily listen to someone more eperienced or skeptical
Cas
From rlevse at cox.net Wed Jun 10 19:33:39 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:33:39 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906100610x6695d367i227e2e18e65850b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com><3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com><206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com><16032ea0906100603m14f33b71s7bfba011e4b8a621@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906100610x6695d367i227e2e18e65850b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8F62D5CDDA24B0099EFF65FE1EEF60A@EveretteCentral>
I'll run a CU later.
These guys need to cough up what they have. Seriously, "He's a sock but I'm
not telling you why". Get real.
r/
Randy Everette
From rlevse at cox.net Wed Jun 10 20:59:06 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:59:06 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906101343o3f718ac6v78613f2c0da214b6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com><3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com><206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com><196185.16066.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<206791b10906101343o3f718ac6v78613f2c0da214b6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FDF43CF1CAB412AB657C46BD761D057@EveretteCentral>
I've ping all three. They're playing the "we're working it and got a secret
game"
r/
Randy Everette
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:13:16 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Sockpuppetry by Jossi
In-Reply-To: <8FDF43CF1CAB412AB657C46BD761D057@EveretteCentral>
References: <2dadd2850906091815s784cc40dk1d081832c9ee109d@mail.gmail.com>
<3f797b9a0906092336r46c5a8f2q108c7cdb17fda882@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906100551m3c40940am6ca030521e225a9c@mail.gmail.com>
<196185.16066.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
<206791b10906101343o3f718ac6v78613f2c0da214b6@mail.gmail.com>
<8FDF43CF1CAB412AB657C46BD761D057@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <16032ea0906101413q7a9e87b3l520cb3c5a8e09c91@mail.gmail.com>
FT2 need to cough up the evidence now. He started working on this on May 1.
This is exactly what he did in the Poetlister situation that made it drag on
for weeks and weeks then we lost control of the situation.
If this is Jossi and there is evidence then we need to see it so we can act.
If it is not clear then we need to know that as well so that Will can be
told to disengage either way. Will monitor the articles and reverting is not
helping the situation for stable NPOV articles.
Sydney
From will.beback.1 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 21:58:46 2009
From: will.beback.1 at gmail.com (Will Beback)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:58:46 -0700
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi/Pergamino
Message-ID: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
Dear ArbCom members,
Tiptoety informs me that he has completed his review of the evidence I
compiled, and that he feels that the probability of Pergamino being a
sock of Jossi is very good. I am attaching a shortened version of that
evidence. Recall that I also submitted a similar file of evidence back
in March alleging past sock abuse by Jossi.
There are several aspects to this case. Pergamino has repeatedly made
comments to the effect that he is a new user with little or no knowledge
of Prem Rawat. Those were all direct lies. Second, Jossi is a user with
a well-known COI who is under ArbCom sanction regarding the editing of
Prem Rawat. Third, the Pergamino account violates SOCK because it hides
Jossi's activity from scrutiny. Fourth, the Pergamino account started
while WP:RFAR/Prem Rawat 2 was still open. If Jossi had been known to
have cut his retirement short and returned to editing then evidence
about his behavior would have been added to that case. The retirement
followed a short time later by the creation of this account had the
effect, and perhaps the intent, of escaping involvement in the RfAR.
Due to the bad faith repeatedly demonstrated by this user, both in this
latest matter and his previous socking, I believe that either a broad
topic ban or a complete project ban are the only appropriate remedies.
I'd be happy for the ArbCom to handle this, but if there's a reluctance
to act then I could submit it to the community instead.
Respectfully,
Will Beback
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/private.../attachment.zip From sydney.poore at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 22:08:56 2009
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:08:56 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi/Pergamino
In-Reply-To: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
References: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0906101508k6d704d1an6a0d93439b58e80c@mail.gmail.com>
I think that we need to ask on Funct-l to see if anyone knows of a back
channel agreement about that account. It could be someone else returning to
edit that agrees with Jossi's point of view.
Sydney
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Wed Jun 10 22:21:28 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:21:28 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi/Pergamino
In-Reply-To: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
References: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <206791b10906101521y6e37997ct75d92f0eb1b71613@mail.gmail.com>
I've put the e-mail and evidence at this page:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/arbc...puser:PergaminoCarcharoth
From rlevse at cox.net Wed Jun 10 22:56:31 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:56:31 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
Message-ID: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
Jossi - last edit Jan 1, 2009, way stale
Pergamino also has Alihi Kaua
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User:Alihi_Kaua
&action=edit&redlink=1> with matching UA
Zappaz - stale
Senegal - stale
Janice Rowe - stale
Now as to if Pergamino is Jossi, CU can't tell us that since Jossi is stale,
unless one of you has CU notes on Jossi.
Alihi Kaua has only 7-8 edits and topics seem different.
r/
Randy Everette
From newyorkbrad at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 22:57:38 2009
From: newyorkbrad at gmail.com (Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia))
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:57:38 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
Hasn't Jossi been checked before when there were previous socking
allegations? Someone may have the old data if you think it's worth asking
around.
Newyorkbrad
From risker.wp at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 23:05:04 2009
From: risker.wp at gmail.com (Risker)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:05:04 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
<c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
Yes, Jossi was checked before during the time of the RFAR and results were
reported to this list. If I recall correctly, one IP was a Roadrunner one,
and the other was for some internet cafe in the Washington area.
Jossi did edit outside of the Prem Rawat area, mostly in the arts if I
remember correctly, so Alihi Kaua's edits don't particularly fit with
Jossi's past editing profile, and the writing style of the main area of work
doesn't look like Jossi at all.
Risker
From rlevse at cox.net Wed Jun 10 23:12:11 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:12:11 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral><c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral>
Oh geez.
CU logs say I (I'd forgot all about it and I DO have the notes) and FT2 ran
checks on Jossi before and look at this:
My 7 March 2009 check has Jossi on (a Jossi/Pongostick check I called
"possible")
Jossi
66.92.51.106
Los Angeles, CA
dsl092-051-106.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net.
also sent email after editing ceased
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.0.5)
Gecko/2008120121 Firefox/3.0.5
My 10 Jun 2009 check on Pergamino has:
Pergamino
66.92.51.106
dsl092-051-106.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net.
Location: United States [City: West Hollywood, California]
Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.0.8)
Gecko/2009032608 Firefox/3.0.8
Some upgrades to his browswer is all, but I'd say CONFIRMED with this and
behavior. There are some other IPs too, but this is a perfect match.
Thoughts?
r/
Randy Everette
From rlevse at cox.net Wed Jun 10 23:19:54 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:19:54 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral><c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com><16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral><eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
That SPECIFIC IP only shows Pergamino on it, because Jossi has now gone
stale. But I HAVE MY CU NOTES ;-)
With CU, it doesn't get much better. It'd only be better if I had them on
multiple matching IPs. What we have is pretty damn good.
r/
Randy Everette
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Wed Jun 10 23:49:05 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:49:05 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
<c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
<16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
<2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
Two questions:
(1) You have run a check on that IP and it only shows Pergamino?
(Jossi not there because stale).
(2) How many people on that IP range? Can you give technical details
about the range and what "dsl092-051-106.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net."
means?
Checking a few more things, from the CU logs:
* 22:43, 10 June 2009, Rlevse got IPs for Jossi (talk | contribs |
block) (good evidence sent to arbcom)
* 13:11, 7 March 2009, Rlevse got IPs for Jossi (talk | contribs |
block) (arbcom issue)
* 16:02, 7 February 2008, FT2 got IPs for Jossi (talk | contribs |
block) (Double check in light of recent El Reg... would be reassuring
to confirm there is no actual/covert abuse.)
OK, that is good. Any point asking what FT2 found on 7 February 2008,
in case there is another IP Jossi might be using?
* 22:45, 10 June 2009, Rlevse got IPs for Pergamino (talk |
contribs | block) (good evidence sent to arbcom)
* 16:19, 28 May 2009, Jpgordon got IPs for Pergamino (talk |
contribs | block) (Suspected socking)
Presumably Josh failed to find anything because he didn't have Randy's
notes from 7 March, right?
The only other thing is to deposit the information somewhere to help
track down future possible abuses. And to see if Jossi is interested
in confessing or explaining what has happened here.
Carcharoth
From rlevse at cox.net Thu Jun 11 00:39:13 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:39:13 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral><c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com><16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral><eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com><206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com><2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral>
1) Yes, Jossi there before in March and now only Pergamino on that one IP.
2) A check of the range /22 shows some IPs and 7 named users, one of whom is
Pergamino and one other matches Pergamino's user agent: Schroedingers
rabbit, who edits are a few dozen and hard to say what his interests are.
r/
Randy Everette
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
<c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
<16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
<2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
<2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <206791b10906101752v6ae7abf3oddaf1eb540050091@mail.gmail.com>
A few final things. Before FT2 gets involved in e-mailing Jossi:
(1) FT2 needs to tell us what CU data he obtained in February 2008 and
whether he still has it. (Again, to help future enquiries - I would
also ask him if he told anyone else what the results of that check
were).
(2) Is it worth asking Josh (jpgordon) if he still has the Pergamino
CU data from May 2009? (To help future enquiries if it turns out to be
a different IP).
So the choice is between an approach from FT2, or an approach by
ArbCom direct to Jossi. At the moment, despite FT2's offer, I would
favour a direct approach from ArbCom to Jossi, using FT2's wording.
What I want to see is whether Jossi responds, or stays silent. If
others think that dealing with Pergamino first is better, then I'll
defer to that plan.
Carcharoth
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 00:58:17 2009
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:58:17 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906101752v6ae7abf3oddaf1eb540050091@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
<c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
<16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
<2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
<2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101752v6ae7abf3oddaf1eb540050091@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0906101758n176f23bdre097189786eaaf8e@mail.gmail.com>
The Committee needs to handle this instead of FT2. The reason we got a
second opinion is so that several CU weighed in so we could make the
decision.
Sydney
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:00:24 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0906101758n176f23bdre097189786eaaf8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral><c52819d30906101557l5233ae1q3e78f1a84a7f0927@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com><16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral><eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com><206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com><2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral><206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com><2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral><206791b10906101752v6ae7abf3oddaf1eb540050091@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906101758n176f23bdre097189786eaaf8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A66F98B66F0E46D6BC2C226F0A4D9403@EveretteCentral>
I told him and josh just now to send me their notes. It's worth asking, but
if we don't get them we have enough to handle on our own.
r/
Randy Everette
From: Josh Gordon [mailto:user.jpgordon at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:43 PM
To: Randy Everette
Subject: Re: Pergamino
Don't have any, sorry.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Randy Everette <rlevse at cox.net> wrote:
Josh:
Can you send me any CU notes you have on Pergamino and Jossi? Thanks.
r/
Randy Everette
Rlevse
--
--jpgordon ????
From jayvdb at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:11:24 2009
From: jayvdb at gmail.com (John Vandenberg)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:11:24 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino CU
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0906101758n176f23bdre097189786eaaf8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <44DDB7F2A589499086A4DA9242DDC6D0@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906101605o71f8e864jf91e57b188bee535@mail.gmail.com>
<16971704AE9D4FAB8B520C5EF27A077C@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906101615w4bd3fb18r1be3b3ff8247d9b7@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906101617r3937e958qaea1560e00e678e8@mail.gmail.com>
<2E5E68B3B5E74615B437039D82AB3A17@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101649h5d669c0ewcbcaa238a3b05306@mail.gmail.com>
<2F5831BEB1304D91AB2F00D2E698F84D@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906101752v6ae7abf3oddaf1eb540050091@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906101758n176f23bdre097189786eaaf8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deea21830906101911v294ab34dm1bcd2de08d01e0d5@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:58 AM, FloNight<sydney.poore at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Committee needs to handle this instead of FT2. The reason we got a
> second opinion is so that several CU weighed in so we could make the
> decision.
I've been pinging FT2 about this for a while (last email was three or
four days ago), without any response as far as I know.
--
John Vandenberg
From rlevse at cox.net Thu Jun 11 02:14:22 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:14:22 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] FW: Jossi
Message-ID: <4BE0CC27E71D4A028E28389B2616C579@EveretteCentral>
What I got from FT2.
r/
Randy Everette
_____
From: FT2 [mailto:ft2.wiki at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:26 PM
To: Randy Everette
Subject: Re: Jossi
The odds are he is, theres a hell of a lot of behavioral evidence and taken
together it looks strong. I've got a file with a hundred or 200 diffs, point
by point showing the matches. It does need review since Will has past bad
blood with Jossi and might exaggerate the significance of some points that
actually are capable of innocent behavior, because some mannerisms he notes
are less uncommon or less valuable evidence than others, or otherwise are a
"stretch", but there's plenty despite that, which does seem to be legitimate
and well founded evidence on the surface. Certainly enough to examine it.
The last 2 weeks have been manic - new roofing, new windows, I've laid 2
floors and fixed a bathroom's plumbing, and just haven't been round. I hate
to let someone down who has asked for my help but it's best Arbcom review
the evidence and if i finish this I'll chip in my $0.02. That way it at
least gets review.
However as to handling, I think I can be effective in handling it in a way
the committee/others can't, as I have chatted and helped Jossi in the past
and he's often asked my advice. An email from me saying basically:
"Jossi, I've spotted you and its very disappointing. Others will too. You
need to retire all socks - and yes I know the details - and deal with this
honestly. If you continue, it will hit Arbcom, on the wiki, and shortly
after without doubt it'll be noticed by Metz and then other media (which
won't have forgotten last year's exposee). We just blocked Scientology IPs;
people would snap up "another cult wrongly editing" even if not strictly
accurate. I'm sayting this to you as a friend, and if you cease editing and
don't return to these topics, and from now on follow the Arbcom remedy, then
the rest is between you, me and the Committee. Copied to the Committee so
they are aware of the concern."
would have real effect, coming from a trusted co-editor who he's looked to
for advice in the past. A simple Arbcom remedy or enforcement doesn't carry
that effect. Basically I think its not so much a "soft approach" as an
approach with more chance of success (ie deterrence/prevention) since he
will know he's bustyed and this is his last chance to avoid the
embarrassment of it. he's averse to that; I think he'll go along with it
which is best all around even if some Wikipedians would like a "burning in
effigy". Besides, its instantly checkable by anyone so he can't hide it, and
he won't get adminship back without AC's okay so thats not an issue.
I emphasize I haven't reviewed the evidence fully myself so the above is
more an outline "how I would handle it". Its a tried and tested approach
I've found works very well on some editors, and I think it will with him.
But I'd like to not send it till I have reviewed the evidence, and I'll
probably add a few more blunt comments and sharp teeth to it, to underline
the point.
Hope that fills you in on it. I will try to review it now the work's mostly
done, honest! Usual "i have a life too" stuff. Please forward to AC for me
too
Paul.
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Randy Everette <rlevse at cox.net> wrote:
What is up with this Jossi/Pergamino thing? We need to know why you guys
think he's socking, with the evidence.
r/
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:52:38 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi/Pergamino
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906101521y6e37997ct75d92f0eb1b71613@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A302C96.1080700@gmail.com>
<206791b10906101521y6e37997ct75d92f0eb1b71613@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deea21830906101952g231f9ee3o8e944754430c1913@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Carcharoth<carcharothwp at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I've put the e-mail and evidence at this page:
>
>
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/arbc...puser:PergaminoWe have more at
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/arbc...ack_about_JossiAnd more mentions elsewhere:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/arbc...Advanced+search--
John Vandenberg
From rlevse at cox.net Thu Jun 11 22:10:27 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:10:27 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
Message-ID: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
What did we decide to do here?
Personally, I'd block him, post the onwiki evidence, and say CU verfied,
then he can file his appeal or whatever.
r/
Randy Everette
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Thu Jun 11 23:10:43 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:10:43 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Did this one get left hanging? I'd say it could almost be a standard
CU block. A statement from ArbCom could back it up, but would take
ages to throw together. FloNight did mention asking on functionaries
if this is a known alternate account. I suppose the list of alternate
accounts on the arbwiki should be checked as well. Regardless, Jossi
should not be editing in this area without asking us first.
Carcharoth
From risker.wp at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 23:20:03 2009
From: risker.wp at gmail.com (Risker)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:20:03 +0000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
Okay...FloNight suggested we ask on functionaries-L if anyone had received a
notice of alternate account. I will send the email to them now.
Risker
From rlevse at cox.net Fri Jun 12 01:07:09 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:07:09 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral><206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
No alt account listed for Pergamino on arb wiki. I agree this could be a
standard CU block. I will wait a bit for funcs to respond.
r/
Randy Everette
From rlevse at cox.net Fri Jun 12 20:14:26 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:14:26 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral><206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com><16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
No one has added more info and we all agree this is very convincing, so I'm
being bold and blocking, etc.
r/
Randy Everette
From rlevse at cox.net Fri Jun 12 21:24:49 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:24:49 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral><206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com><eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com><16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com><7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
Done. I'll post onwiki evidence if need be, but not CU of course. I only
posted on Pergamino's talk page and told him to contact arbcom if he wants.
Noted as an arbcom vio, socking, etc.
r/
Randy Everette
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Sat Jun 13 00:04:36 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:04:36 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi and Pergamino
In-Reply-To: <576A2242579F4912AAB60C47C0E19039@EveretteCentral>
References: <a01006d90906121640k13d6bba7kd1a943d1fdf7dc1a@mail.gmail.com>
<576A2242579F4912AAB60C47C0E19039@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <206791b10906121704m45fd7a8eu4dee4fc8b524cfc0@mail.gmail.com>
Maybe a posting to the talk page to reiterate the ArbCom remedy from
the Prem Rawat case and mentioning the sock that was blocked? Oh, and
could everyone remember to keep quiet about *how* we managed to
identify this sock. We won't get so lucky next time, unless periodic
checkusers are allowed and will help.
Carcharoth
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:08:58 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Jossi and Pergamino
In-Reply-To: <deea21830906121804m2a77c30fvd043a4bfc12bc035@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a01006d90906121640k13d6bba7kd1a943d1fdf7dc1a@mail.gmail.com><576A2242579F4912AAB60C47C0E19039@EveretteCentral><206791b10906121704m45fd7a8eu4dee4fc8b524cfc0@mail.gmail.com><20CDCF9A6E2348FA9E4E85A348222BF5@EveretteCentral>
<deea21830906121804m2a77c30fvd043a4bfc12bc035@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76A9D2985C3F43CD937A9BA697DC6A57@EveretteCentral>
No need to wait.
r/
Randy Everette
-----Original Message-----
From: arbcom-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:arbcom-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Vandenberg
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:04 PM
To: Arbitration Committee mailing list
Subject: Re: [arbcom-l] Jossi and Pergamino
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Randy Everette<rlevse at cox.net> wrote:
> I almost put a puppetmaster tag on his page. I mean why not, he was
> puppeteering afterall. When I was working the sock almost daily it was a
> routine matter of course for me. Why I held off this time I don't know but
> there is no one that could say it'd be wrong to do so.
before she emailed, I told Durova that we would do something to make
this prominently know. We have to, because he has continued to edit
without contacting us, which means that he has broken one or more
remedies.
However we can approach this carefully, talk with him, wait for his
response to FT2, etc.
--
John Vandenberg
_______________________________________________
arbcom-l mailing list
arbcom-l at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/arbcom-lFrom ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 10:57:42 2009
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:57:42 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] My email to Jossi
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0906121602h28f7b94bu5fed7183854794f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0906121602h28f7b94bu5fed7183854794f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0906130357h52f99ed9y60dfbd48a113c00e@mail.gmail.com>
For the record, I have had a reply from Jossi to my email. He has asked me
to keep it private, and as it doesn't say much that's relevant to others,
I'm respecting that wish. However it does appear to indirectly suggest
confirmation of the socking -- he asks me (on his real-world Jossi email
address) to hard block 66.92.51.106, an IP used exclusively by Pergamino
(for his April 14 2009 edits) and no other user, and which has no IP edits
since 2007 to allow a guess to be made of ownership.
It also does not say "I will be retiring", or any regrets, or the like,
which slightly bothers me, it appears to leave the door open without
touching on whether he would commit to not repeating.
User agent for these edits: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5;
en-US; rv:1.9.0.8) Gecko/2009032608 Firefox/3.0.8
Paul.
From sydney.poore at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 11:24:12 2009
From: sydney.poore at gmail.com (FloNight)
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:24:12 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] My email to Jossi
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0906130357h52f99ed9y60dfbd48a113c00e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0906121602h28f7b94bu5fed7183854794f6@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0906130357h52f99ed9y60dfbd48a113c00e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16032ea0906130424w148b7bfah3fc8892c72247b90@mail.gmail.com>
To list only.
The reason that I wanted us to handle the situation was stop the soap opera
aspect the situation from growing.
We don't need back channel communication and undisclosed correspondence, we
need straight forward answers and on site action in response to a violation
of an arbcom sanction by an established user. There has been media coverage
of Jossi and the articles in the past, iirc, so there the potential for
media coverage is significant.
We need clear answers so we can develop a decisive way to handle the
situation.
Randy, can you or someone else take this over so that we can take control of
the situation and sort this out as quickly as possible.
Sydney
From risker.wp at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 07:37:16 2009
From: risker.wp at gmail.com (Risker)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:37:16 +0000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
<BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
Jossi blocked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...de_patrol_log=1Risker
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 08:18:39 2009
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:18:39 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0906140118j1a98c307wf07b01dfe40e2973@mail.gmail.com>
Forwarded.
I have to also admit, not impressed - it's all about "I cannot possibly
explain well" and "how hard it is for me"... and not a word about "I was
wrong".
Paul.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jossi
Date: Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 2:33 AM
Subject: Re: With deep regrets
To: FT2 <FT2.wiki at gmail.com>
Thank you for your generosity, in thinking of me as a friend.
It has been a very hard 24hs for me, as you can imagine, I have not slept or
able to keep any food.
I would want to send a note to the ArbCom, and I would appreciate your
advice it it will be wise to do so.
This is the note I would like you to forward to the ArbCom if you think it
will be a good idea.
-- Jossi
Dear arbcom,
It is with great sadness and a heavy heart that I write to you, as I know
for certain that whatever explanations I could provide will not satisfy the
ArbCom (let alone the community), and that doing so will surely make things
more complicated for me and my family.
I have to live with the consequences of the many actions I have taken in the
past in Wikipedia, such as editing under my real name, getting involved too
deeply in a subject about which it was extremely difficult to remain
neutral, not listening to the loud feedback from many in the community to
stay away from the subject, taking things too personally in my interactions
with several editors, etc., so I am unwilling to make further disclosures or
comments as it will likely make matters worse: My involvement in Wikipedia
and the negative reporting instigated by people of ill-will has already
badly impacted my ability to earn a living (just google my name and you will
know what I mean.) I fully understand that you have no reasons to accept at
face value what I am saying, and will need to accept this as a sad but true
fact.
I know that I am in no position to ask for any favors, but I would greatly
appreciate it if the committee could consider extending me the courtesy of
the right to vanish (WP:VANISH) and delete all my user pages and subpages,
even though I know I am no longer considered to be in good standing. This
will help me in moving on with my life without any further pain.
I appreciate the ArbCom hard work in helping keep external disputes out of
the community, and hope that Wikipedia continues developing policies and
guidelines that will protect people like me from harming themselves IRL. I
have suffered enough already and do not wish anyone the same fate.
My best wishes and my deepest apologies to you all,
-- Jossi
From carcharothwp at googlemail.com Sun Jun 14 09:19:43 2009
From: carcharothwp at googlemail.com (Carcharoth)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:19:43 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
<BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com>
Is this being disucssed anywhere on-wiki? Does Viridae have any
background here? The block log is technically correct, but the
sanctions talk about contacting ArbCom. For all Viridae knew, we were
waiting for Jossi to contact us, or Jossi had already contacted us.
Apart from us being too slow to handle the situation, is there any
reason for Viridae to jump in here?
Carcharoth
From jayvdb at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 09:36:30 2009
From: jayvdb at gmail.com (John Vandenberg)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:36:30 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0906140118j1a98c307wf07b01dfe40e2973@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e71d9fab0906140118j1a98c307wf07b01dfe40e2973@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deea21830906140236l5472fd3cne1ef7ce622863b7d@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 6:18 PM, FT2<ft2.wiki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Forwarded.
>
> I have to also admit, not impressed - it's all about "I cannot possibly
> explain well" and "how hard it is for me"... and not a word about "I was
> wrong".
>
> Paul.
Thanks for forwarding this Paul. No comment on the request to vanish,
except that this is a mighty big genie to shove back into the bottle.
--
John Vandenberg
From jayvdb at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 10:44:07 2009
From: jayvdb at gmail.com (John Vandenberg)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:44:07 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906111610g69e20d76v72a31abd5ce27ff4@mail.gmail.com>
<eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
<BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <deea21830906140344h7337e4e3l3828f151f969ec2c@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Carcharoth<carcharothwp at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Is this being disucssed anywhere on-wiki? Does Viridae have any
> background here? The block log is technically correct, but the
> sanctions talk about contacting ArbCom. For all Viridae knew, we were
> waiting for Jossi to contact us, or Jossi had already contacted us.
> Apart from us being too slow to handle the situation, is there any
> reason for Viridae to jump in here?
I see your point, but it turned out ok. We will be looking for
enemies if we suggest they shouldn't have blocked based on
hypothetical situations which were not true.
--
John Vandenberg
From szvest at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 10:45:51 2009
From: szvest at gmail.com (Fayssal F.)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:45:51 +0000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
Message-ID: <2a8c5680906140345j67fd14baw174919106e991f34@mail.gmail.com>
He doesn't need to say "I was wrong" since he's invoking his right to
vanish. He acknowledges 'getting involved too deeply in a subject about
which it was extremely difficult to remain neutral, not listening to the
loud feedback from many in the community to stay away from the subject,
taking things too personally in my interactions with several editors'. In
his last sentence he expresses his 'deepest apologies to all'.
Sounds fine to me.
Fayssal F.
From ft2.wiki at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 11:13:57 2009
From: ft2.wiki at gmail.com (FT2)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:13:57 +0100
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
In-Reply-To: <2a8c5680906140345j67fd14baw174919106e991f34@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a8c5680906140345j67fd14baw174919106e991f34@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e71d9fab0906140413o797dbbcfg1309fadf7ec1dc2f@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Fayssal F. <szvest at gmail.com> wrote:
> He doesn't need to say "I was wrong" since he's invoking his right to
> vanish. He acknowledges 'getting involved too deeply in a subject about
> which it was extremely difficult to remain neutral, not listening to the
> loud feedback from many in the community to stay away from the subject,
> taking things too personally in my interactions with several editors'. In
> his last sentence he expresses his 'deepest apologies to all'.
>
> Sounds fine to me.
>
> Fayssal F.
>
He socked, knowing as an admin just how wrong it was; he did so in the face
of and to evade an Arbcom decision; the behavior this time throws doubt on
the honesty of his past protestations.... with only a plea how hard it is on
him and nno apology, this just doesn't seem "fine". It doesn't indicate he
has any genuine motive to desist, or any regret for the behaviors, other
than that he doesn't like the backlash he might get.
As a result I'm not placing much weight on the "apologies to all" at all.
It's quite possibly just words. Make any vanishing dependent on genuine
vanishing, and emphasize in any reply that he should be aware that any
return under any sock will negate that courtesy.
Paul.
From rlevse at cox.net Sun Jun 14 11:33:15 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:33:15 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
In-Reply-To: <e71d9fab0906140413o797dbbcfg1309fadf7ec1dc2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a8c5680906140345j67fd14baw174919106e991f34@mail.gmail.com>
<e71d9fab0906140413o797dbbcfg1309fadf7ec1dc2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56D21EF5D5DE45E2B1A75197D3963218@EveretteCentral>
He defacto admits he's guilty of socking and implies there are more socks we
haven't found ("so I am unwilling to make further disclosures")-or at least
he's still hiding something.
r/
Randy Everette
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <4F55EC193F1140D1806971EB1B061342@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com>
<16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
<BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com>
<deea21830906140344h7337e4e3l3828f151f969ec2c@mail.gmail.com>
<4F55EC193F1140D1806971EB1B061342@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <206791b10906140438x775efcb3jb522ecaf0fd7b2cc@mail.gmail.com>
So why didn't you block Jossi immediately? That's my point here. We
should have done it ourselves, not waited for Viridae to step in. My
impression of socking was that first offence was a slap on the wrist
(unless very abusive) and more was an indefinite block. But that
doesn't apply here - Jossi knew about the sanctions and should have
known better. I don't disagree with the indefinite block, just how we
left it as a loose end.
The trouble will be if socking continues and having to do
"behavioural" judgment if CU evidence inconclusive.
Carcharoth
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Randy Everette<rlevse at cox.net> wrote:
> It's common with sock fighters (like I was for so lock) to indef the
> puppetmaster, or at least short term block them if it's their first
> "offense". Repeats are standard indefs. I see no problem here.
>
> r/
> Randy Everette
From rlevse at cox.net Sun Jun 14 11:44:35 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:44:35 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <206791b10906140438x775efcb3jb522ecaf0fd7b2cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral><eb45e7c0906111620x2b494bcfxbd02b66b840fa7ca@mail.gmail.com><16032ea0906111627y147eac4fyad1c1e47fe905e8e@mail.gmail.com><7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral><7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral><BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral><eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com><206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com><deea21830906140344h7337e4e3l3828f151f969ec2c@mail.gmail.com><4F55EC193F1140D1806971EB1B061342@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906140438x775efcb3jb522ecaf0fd7b2cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B4D6AFC61D3748FEAEFEA2E87024609C@EveretteCentral>
I honestly don't know why I didn't.
This CU evidence was very solid.
r/
Randy Everette
From szvest at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 11:45:46 2009
From: szvest at gmail.com (Fayssal F.)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:45:46 +0000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
Message-ID: <2a8c5680906140445q46b93d79sa47ec20c2aab980@mail.gmail.com>
I believe you didn't ask him to apologize in your e-mail when you warned
him. The only expectation you've explicitly had was a definitive halt of
sockpuppeting. Plus, he's just asked you about your opinion before e-mailing
ArbCom
You could have discussed the apology issue with him.
I am really against forcing long-time editors (troublemakers or not) to
harsh treatment just because we believe they are not being sincere. We are
politicizing issues; which is not good for the project. It creates more
tensions than it tries to ease. At least, people deserve their dignities.
He's even telling you that his life has changed to bad. Please, Paul! We
treat all people equally and the last example has been user:Sam Blacketer.
I say all that because I see he wants to go away otherwise I'd have agreed
with you. I assume good faith here. Why would he tell you that if you think
he's going to sock again knowing that he'll get caught?
Fayssal F.
From rlevse at cox.net Sun Jun 14 11:52:07 2009
From: rlevse at cox.net (Randy Everette)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:52:07 -0400
Subject: [arbcom-l] Fwd: From Jossi
In-Reply-To: <2a8c5680906140445q46b93d79sa47ec20c2aab980@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2a8c5680906140445q46b93d79sa47ec20c2aab980@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA9C3B608AD147E8B9CE0CD6F13C88EB@EveretteCentral>
RTV here would be a quagmire as he's definitely not in "good standing".
But we should let him leave with as much dignity as possible. He simply
needs to stop editing. I think it best if we all, including Jossi, drop it
and move on.
FayasslF: I don't think your last email went to FT2.
r/
Randy Everette
From jayvdb at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 11:54:56 2009
From: jayvdb at gmail.com (John Vandenberg)
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:54:56 +1000
Subject: [arbcom-l] Pergamino and Jossi
In-Reply-To: <B4D6AFC61D3748FEAEFEA2E87024609C@EveretteCentral>
References: <47374AFD732A4815A923A011AF3C5815@EveretteCentral>
<7D6C5E39D1554548B6B52A1C75C78CC0@EveretteCentral>
<7DCCE5F61FEE4100B3406FA3CD5CFD22@EveretteCentral>
<BA4AA48F203A4A7EBB2B96065E4EFD09@EveretteCentral>
<eb45e7c0906140037l12f01bdqb20e6d54c82954b2@mail.gmail.com>
<206791b10906140219p32c64e8es7dc0fe49211942ac@mail.gmail.com>
<deea21830906140344h7337e4e3l3828f151f969ec2c@mail.gmail.com>
<4F55EC193F1140D1806971EB1B061342@EveretteCentral>
<206791b10906140438x775efcb3jb522ecaf0fd7b2cc@mail.gmail.com>
<B4D6AFC61D3748FEAEFEA2E87024609C@EveretteCentral>
Message-ID: <deea21830906140454s7f3f9105ud68945c936969883@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Randy Everette<rlevse at cox.net> wrote:
> I honestly don't know why I didn't.
>
> This CU evidence was very solid.
I'm a bit stunned you let paused on the block button! ;-)
I think you did the right thing Randy - the pause allowed it to sink
in, and the community made the right decision to indef block.
It is one less "arbcom ban" we need to worry about.
--
John Vandenberg
The Jossi Banning, Request by Beer Me
Sun 26th June 2011, 4:22pm
