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> User Tisane, this could end badly
Abd
post Thu 14th October 2010, 2:28am
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QUOTE(Alison @ Wed 13th October 2010, 7:05pm) *
Just so's you know - Tisane, aka Nathan Larson, was sent back to jail until mid-2012 ohmy.gif sad.gif
Thanks for the information. I'll write him. I'd visit him, but it's pretty far to Virginia....

I'm glad to know he's safe. I was worried that he might decide to go out in a "blaze of glory."
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EricBarbour
post Thu 14th October 2010, 8:17am
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 13th October 2010, 6:08pm) *

Twisted minds want to know......who owns 74.63.112.138.

Hmm.....Woodstock, Illinois, FDCservers.net.
Contributed to Memory Alpha. Neeeerd.
But no hits in the WP database. Bad nerd!!
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Herschelkrustofsky
post Thu 14th October 2010, 12:45pm
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QUOTE(Seurat @ Mon 16th August 2010, 12:19am) *

The Internet is no more and no less than what is made of it. The only thing that distinguishes it from the analog world is the ease with which one can acquire and stand upon one's soapbox.
But then the question becomes, does one have a substantial audience. Therein lies Jimbo's great achievement: he figured out how to mate with Google.
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carbuncle
post Thu 14th October 2010, 1:18pm
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QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Thu 14th October 2010, 8:17am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Wed 13th October 2010, 6:08pm) *

Twisted minds want to know......who owns 74.63.112.138.

Hmm.....Woodstock, Illinois, FDCservers.net.
Contributed to Memory Alpha. Neeeerd.
But no hits in the WP database. Bad nerd!!

That IP is or has been a public proxy server.
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Jon Awbrey
post Thu 14th October 2010, 1:34pm
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Doesn't this go in the Editors Forum?

Jon huh.gif
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Herschelkrustofsky
post Thu 14th October 2010, 4:22pm
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QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Thu 14th October 2010, 6:34am) *

Doesn't this go in the Editors Forum?
Mod's note: Done.
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Milton Roe
post Thu 14th October 2010, 4:23pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:45am) *

QUOTE(Seurat @ Mon 16th August 2010, 12:19am) *

The Internet is no more and no less than what is made of it. The only thing that distinguishes it from the analog world is the ease with which one can acquire and stand upon one's soapbox.
But then the question becomes, does one have a substantial audience. Therein lies Jimbo's great achievement: he figured out how to mate with Google.

Fleas are known by their coupling gear. mellow.gif

No, that's literally true about fleas. They have dicks like swiss knife attachments, and each species is different. See the Wikipedia article. wink.gif
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Zoloft
post Thu 14th October 2010, 4:48pm
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QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 14th October 2010, 9:23am) *

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:45am) *

QUOTE(Seurat @ Mon 16th August 2010, 12:19am) *

The Internet is no more and no less than what is made of it. The only thing that distinguishes it from the analog world is the ease with which one can acquire and stand upon one's soapbox.
But then the question becomes, does one have a substantial audience. Therein lies Jimbo's great achievement: he figured out how to mate with Google.

Fleas are known by their coupling gear. mellow.gif

No, that's literally true about fleas. They have dicks like swiss knife attachments, and each species is different. See the Wikipedia article. wink.gif

I always thought Wikipedia was more like a tick, hanging on and engorging with the contributions of others...
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Milton Roe
post Thu 14th October 2010, 5:21pm
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QUOTE(Zoloft @ Thu 14th October 2010, 9:48am) *

QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Thu 14th October 2010, 9:23am) *

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 14th October 2010, 5:45am) *

QUOTE(Seurat @ Mon 16th August 2010, 12:19am) *

The Internet is no more and no less than what is made of it. The only thing that distinguishes it from the analog world is the ease with which one can acquire and stand upon one's soapbox.
But then the question becomes, does one have a substantial audience. Therein lies Jimbo's great achievement: he figured out how to mate with Google.

Fleas are known by their coupling gear. mellow.gif

No, that's literally true about fleas. They have dicks like swiss knife attachments, and each species is different. See the Wikipedia article. wink.gif

I always thought Wikipedia was more like a tick, hanging on and engorging with the contributions of others...

Yes, the main question now being: low long before it drops off into the folliage, to reproduce.
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Michaeldsuarez
post Tue 28th August 2012, 3:03pm
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http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:..._for_pedophilia

http://libertapedia.org/wiki/Essay:There_i...child-adult_sex

http://libertapedia.org/wiki/Essay_talk:Th...child-adult_sex

http://libertapedia.org/wiki/Essay_talk:Th...ld-adult_sex/RW

Recently blocked from RationalWiki for extremely disturbing advocacy (or trolling, as some suggest).

Also:

http://libertapedia.org/wiki/Minor#Sexual_restrictions

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&action=history

This post has been edited by Michaeldsuarez: Tue 28th August 2012, 3:16pm
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Retrospect
post Tue 28th August 2012, 3:32pm
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So, one motherfucker down, but how many many thiousand still to go? huh.gif
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Michaeldsuarez
post Tue 28th August 2012, 5:05pm
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http://nathania.org/w/index.php?title=User...ilia&oldid=3421 (NSFW, extremely creepy)

Edit: Adding a warning per Ottava's suggestion below.

This post has been edited by Michaeldsuarez: Tue 28th August 2012, 8:09pm
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Ottava
post Tue 28th August 2012, 6:44pm
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QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Tue 28th August 2012, 1:05pm) *



Yeah, people should be warned about opening that link. Blarg.
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The Joy
post Wed 29th August 2012, 12:29am
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QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Tue 28th August 2012, 11:03am) *


The fact that the Rational Wiki community had to have a discussion about it before banning him leaves me ill. sick.gif

I hereby award TheoryOfPractice the Barnstar of Common Sense and the Barnstar of Common Decency. applause.gif applause.gif applause.gif

Image
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Abd
post Wed 29th August 2012, 3:03am
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Naturally, I have a different perspective on what happened at RationalWiki.

This is what happened.

Tisane was accused of promoting pedophilia on RationalWiki. He was accused of approving of child rape. He was threatened with being anally raped with a crowbar, and another user promised to track him down and cut his balls off.

The only user who did anything about those threats was me, and what I did was mild, just enough to stop the threats. I was temporarily desysopped ("promoted") because of that. RationalWiki is the weirdest wiki I've ever seen.

Eventually, Tisane's page on Pedophilia was pointed to -- an old version of it is linked above, not the current version --, and it was called "child pornography."

Hipocrite allegedly reported the site to the FBI.

The debate on RationalWiki was over whether or not a user should be banned for having advocated pedophilia on the wiki. Tisane had fallen right into the middle of a long-term controversy on RW, over whether or not the advocacy of odious views, racism, etc., should be permitted. There was no controversy over deleting the Tisane essay, and Tisane did not oppose it (i.e., wheel-war over deletion,which he could have done, he was a sysop).

For a time, the majority position was that Tisane should be asked to not advocate pedophilia on the site, but not banned, but suddenly the tide turned and it reached the point that almost two-thirds voted for a ban. There was no sign that Tisane would not have respected a request to not "advocate pedophilia."

Before the technical decision point (2/3 for ban, one week process), the mods shut it down, and blocked him for a year. The discussion was tearing the community apart. The very fact that this needed to be discussed was considered so horrible that users were resigning, like TheoryOfPractice praised above, who had filed the complaint, after wheel-warring on blocking and desysopping Tisane (he was temporarily desysopped). Other users thought that the principle of permitting holders of odious views to participate had long ago been decided as site policy.

One problem. The debate was founded on assumptions of fact by almost everyone that were not true.

Tisane had not advocated pedophilia.
He had certainly not approved of rape.
The supposedly NSFW images on his own web page are not child pornography, and, in fact, he posted them as examples of what is legal. That was the point.

TheoryOfPractice only gave one diff with his filing. It did not provide evidence for the claims. I asked for evidence, and there was, initially, no answer, but voting continued on the question of banning him or not. Eventually a user said that the evidence was at the beginning. The original diff.

Eventually, Tisane's web page on Pedophilia (from his own "bliki") was introduced as evidence by an IP troll.

The page itself, if you read it, shows that Tisane is not a pedophile, if we assume honesty, and if we don't assume honesty, why would we think that what is written there means anything?

I've known Tisane for almost five years, and it all rings true, as to how he thinks. He does not have a sexual preference for children, and he has no sexual intentions toward children, and there is no sign that he has had any sexual experience of children (as an adult). He's a heterosexual male, attracted preferentially to mature women.

Pornography has a specific legal definition. His own wiki page does not meet that definition. Those images were collected from legal web sites. There was one nude photo of two girls, from a nudist site. The FBI site Hipocrite used to report the web page has a definition of child pornography and that photo does not meet it, nor does any photo on the page. Nudity, per se, is not, legally, pornography, in spite of Ottava's long-term insistence. Most of the photos are "fashion shots." They may indeed be "child erotica," a legal category again, and Tisane's page linked to a page of information for police that covered the distinction. Child erotica is legal, child pornography is not. Attempting to prosecute people for child erotica will waste police resources.

Tisane does not maintain collections of images of child erotica (which is not illegal, but which may sometimes can be used in prosecutions for child sexual abuse -- and that's controversial). He had an obvious intellectual purpose in collecting those images. If he were using them for sexual purposes, he'd not have put them up on that page, it makes no sense. Pedophiles simply don't behave as he behaved.

The image on Commons that Tisane removed the "child" category from would be, if those were minors, child pornography, because sexual activity is portrayed.

Tisane's removal of the category was proper. There is no reason to think that the models were children, or that the portrayal was intended to be of children.

This whole incident, in fact, demonstrated brilliantly exactly what Tisane was writing about. It is impossible to discuss the topic rationally. Questioning the strength of the evidence for the conventional wisdom -- what he actually did -- is prohibited.

He did not assert that adult/child sexual relationships were not harmful. He questioned the relative harm, and society responds to criminal behavior, sensibly, proportionally to harm. Questioning the degree of harm is not denying it, and Tisane expected that his essay would be rationally criticized. It was, in many ways, shallow and incomplete. But the very discussion itself was prohibited, events showed.
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Ottava
post Wed 29th August 2012, 4:37am
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Hey Michael, is there any way to get that page deleted? It should be deleted, burned, raised as a blank page, deleted again, then bleach should be passed around to dab into anyone's eyes who happened to have bumped into that page.
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The Joy
post Wed 29th August 2012, 5:12am
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QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 29th August 2012, 12:37am) *

Hey Michael, is there any way to get that page deleted? It should be deleted, burned, raised as a blank page, deleted again, then bleach should be passed around to dab into anyone's eyes who happened to have bumped into that page.


http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/nathania.org

It's his private wiki/blog a.k.a. "bliki."

HostMonster is the web host. Their ToS states under 10. Prohibitions, Section 10 that the hosting of child pornography is not allowed. Maybe contacting their "Terms of Service Compliance Department" could get the site shut down and the police notified?
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Michaeldsuarez
post Wed 29th August 2012, 1:17pm
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QUOTE(Abd @ Tue 28th August 2012, 11:03pm) *
The image on Commons that Tisane removed the "child" category from would be, if those were minors, child pornography, because sexual activity is portrayed.

Tisane's removal of the category was proper. There is no reason to think that the models were children, or that the portrayal was intended to be of children.


http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&action=history

You're missing the point of that link. I feel that it's unlikely that Tisane arrived at that image randomly. He must've searched Commons's image or categories for certain keywords. He was searching, and Commons is an enabler for people who want to make such searches.

This post has been edited by Michaeldsuarez: Wed 29th August 2012, 1:18pm
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Ottava
post Wed 29th August 2012, 2:00pm
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QUOTE(Michaeldsuarez @ Wed 29th August 2012, 9:17am) *

QUOTE(Abd @ Tue 28th August 2012, 11:03pm) *
The image on Commons that Tisane removed the "child" category from would be, if those were minors, child pornography, because sexual activity is portrayed.

Tisane's removal of the category was proper. There is no reason to think that the models were children, or that the portrayal was intended to be of children.


http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?t...&action=history

You're missing the point of that link. I feel that it's unlikely that Tisane arrived at that image randomly. He must've searched Commons's image or categories for certain keywords. He was searching, and Commons is an enabler for people who want to make such searches.



Hey Michael, I think you missed the real point of Abd's comments - he revealed that he spent enough time and has enough knowledge to analyze the photos and determine if they were child porn or not. Abd has been a long term defender of the guy, and I think we discovered something very, very creepy.
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Abd
post Wed 29th August 2012, 4:01pm
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QUOTE(The Joy @ Wed 29th August 2012, 1:12am) *
QUOTE(Ottava @ Wed 29th August 2012, 12:37am) *
Hey Michael, is there any way to get that page deleted? It should be deleted, burned, raised as a blank page, deleted again, then bleach should be passed around to dab into anyone's eyes who happened to have bumped into that page.
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/nathania.org

It's his private wiki/blog a.k.a. "bliki."

HostMonster is the web host. Their ToS states under 10. Prohibitions, Section 10 that the hosting of child pornography is not allowed. Maybe contacting their "Terms of Service Compliance Department" could get the site shut down and the police notified?
For what? The page is not pornography. Period. "Child pornography" has a legal definition. Now, you might still be able to convince a service provider to take it down anyway. Sometimes they will shoot first and ask questions later.

What the page actually was, though, is an examination of an issue. It's political, and it's "outrageous," deliberately. It might as well have been designed, quite precisely and effectively, to cause Ottava to go ballistic.

The page does not advocate pedophilia. It looks at the legal issues.. Much of what is on that page can be found in many other places, including law articles, etc.

On RationalWiki, I pointed out, as part of the discussion, the legal distinction between "child erotica" and "child pornography." The response of one editor to that was to claim he was resigning from the wiki, because of this totally disgusting commentary. Pointing out a thoroughly established legal distinction, supported by lots of cases, was unacceptable.

Police know this distinction, they have to, or they waste tons of time and money better spent actually fighting child pornography and child sexual abuse. Lawyers know it, and explain it on their web sites.

But the very idea of "child erotica" drives some people so crazy that it's impossible to talk about it.

Here as well, it seems.

"Child erotica" conjures up an image of pedophiles, since aren't they the only people who would even look at such? That's crazy, in fact. Tisane is not a pedophile. It's obvious from his "Pedophilia" page. He is able to look at "child erotica" without having a true sexual response. He clearly does not prefer children, and he's quite aware of the possible harm of any sexual relationship of an adult with children. He sees the attractiveness of the children. So does nearly every normal person, male or female. That does not make a normal person a "pedophile," and all that Tisane has done, which seems so offensive, is to describe a normal response. Talking about that response is what is not normal.

What is generally offensive about the "child erotica" images is what we imagine about the publishers. I hope that people here are aware that Tisane did not take these photos, they are all readily available on the web. He collected them, not as a private "erotica" stash, but to make a point about what is legal. The "fashion" images show girls posing "provocatively." That's what is knee-jerk offensive about them. As a parent, I'm offended that kids are being used in this way. But images like that are used in advertising, it is not uncommon. There are "beauty contests" for children where the children pose like adults. Provocatively.

"Child pornography" is not readily available. You really have to work to find it, I've done searches, researching these issues, and have never seen any. Except, of course, on Commons, in those old engravings. That is, as generally defined, child pornography. I'm sure that the lawyers for the WMF are aware of the issues.

If what is on that page requires bleach in the eyes, I'm in deep trouble. I have children, ages 9 and 11 right now. I routinely see what, if photographed, would be "child erotica." (Mostly without the provocative poses, but my 11-year old is starting to imitate what she sees in youtube videos. Provocative.) I never see what would be called "child pornography" if photographed.

Ottava in other places, claimed that child nudity was inherently sexual. That reveals far more about Ottava than it does about others who might have photos of their children nude.

There is one nude photo of two girls on Tisane's page. They are not sexually provocative. Tisane makes a comment about one of them possibly developing curves. That, in fact, reveals what is actually attractive to him, adult curves.

Tisane is practically an instinctive troll. He knows exactly how to push the buttons of people like Ottava, and even more normal people. Based on irrationality and "forbidden" topics.
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