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_ Articles _ Could it be any worse?
Posted by: Kelly Martin
Ran across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smockingmarked.jpg recently. This fine work was executed to illustrate the article on smocking. The problem with this is that the work presented of absolutely horrific quality; if this were my work I would be tempted to burn it and under no circumstance would I let anyone see it. I'm sure that a five year old could do better than this.
Of course, one look at who created this travesty of textile arts and you'll understand why this is on Wikipedia.
Posted by: Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:51pm) 
Ran across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smockingmarked.jpg recently. This fine work was executed to illustrate the article on smocking. The problem with this is that the work presented of absolutely horrific quality; if this were my work I would be tempted to burn it and under no circumstance would I let anyone see it. I'm sure that a five year old could do better than this.
Of course, one look at who created this travesty of textile arts and you'll understand why this is on Wikipedia.
Not To Be Confused With →
Jon
Posted by: Enric_Naval
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Posted by: MZMcBride
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Posted by: Newyorkbrad
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Are those the only choices?
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Are those the only choices?
Maybe I should make manifest the subtext. You have entered a place where your values will not find universal acceptance.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 3:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Wikipedia: where we'll publish any old crap you give us, because we're too cheap to care about values.
Posted by: Casliber
I think what happens is no-one thinks to take photos of certain things - this often happens with common plants and birds, and things like pieces of fruit, recipes etc. Once a few folks get involved, better images come along. I recall the article on tooth/teeth going this way, and certainly some bird species articles too.
Posted by: TungstenCarbide
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 8:51pm)
Ran across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smockingmarked.jpg recently. This fine work was executed to illustrate the article on smocking. The problem with this is that the work presented of absolutely horrific quality; if this were my work I would be tempted to burn it and under no circumstance would I let anyone see it. I'm sure that a five year old could do better than this.
Of course, one look at who created this travesty of textile arts and you'll understand why this is on Wikipedia.
"Could it be any worse?"
Why yes, it could be and is; http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Penis
Posted by: Zoloft
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:13pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Are those the only choices?
Maybe I should make manifest the subtext. You have entered a place where your values will not find universal acceptance.
I thought you were simply requesting help changing (and perhaps protecting) this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fuck_Off_And_Die&redirect=no.
Posted by: dtobias
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Now, if only you can convince the New Hampshire state government to put that on their license plates instead of the tired old "Live free or die" slogan!
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 2:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.Personally I was in favor of forcing Brad and Durova to strip naked,
then super-gluing their bellies together, so they are permanently stuck
face to face. Damn, that would make an awesome photo on Commons.
Posted by: Doc glasgow
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Thu 4th March 2010, 12:41am)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 2:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.Personally I was in favor of forcing Brad and Durova to strip naked,
then super-gluing their bellies together, so they are permanently stuck
face to face. Damn, that would make an awesome photo on Commons.
Not really, I'm sure it would languish in an existing category over-full of such things.
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 9:51pm)
Ran across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Smockingmarked.jpg recently. This fine work was executed to illustrate the article on smocking. The problem with this is that the work presented of absolutely horrific quality; if this were my work I would be tempted to burn it and under no circumstance would I let anyone see it. I'm sure that a five year old could do better than this.
Of course, one look at who created this travesty of textile arts and you'll understand why this is on Wikipedia.
Sigh. I'm in two minds about this: on one hand I greatly appreciate what Durova has done for textile arts/ embroidery project (ok: so shoot me) -On the other hand: I would never have dared to show/produce anything like this even in my compulsary handicraft-classes when I was 10-12 years old (And yeah: I had to suffer through those. And hated it. If anyone tells me: "so produce something better yourself"..I'll throw my computer at them. )
And then to publish this on the internet, to let everyone see? Sorry, Durova: this is truly bad.
Some self-censorship might come in handy, even for "experiences" wiki-editors.
(but of course, the "wiki-way" say that even something horribly bad is better than nothing
)Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 5:41pm)
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 2:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.Personally I was in favor of forcing Brad and Durova to strip naked,
then super-gluing their bellies together, so they are permanently stuck
face to face. Damn, that would make an awesome photo on Commons.
A couple named Mary and Kelly
Spent their honeymoon belly to belly
Because, in their haste,
They'd used library paste
Instead of petroleum jelly
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(Newyorkbrad @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 10:06pm)
QUOTE(GlassBeadGame @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:52pm)
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
Fuck off and die.
Are those the only choices?
I suppose another option would be to upload this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37869936@N00/493663266
or something better yet to Commons. Then you could get rid of the embarrassing quality crap in the article.
Posted by: Peter Damian
QUOTE(Kwork @ Thu 4th March 2010, 6:08pm)
I suppose another option would be to upload this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37869936@N00/493663266
or something better yet to Commons. Then you could get rid of the embarrassing quality crap in the article.
That one is also quite horrible, though in a different way.
Posted by: Somey
I hate to play Devil's Advocate here, but if the point is to show how the fabric is gathered, does the quality of the stitching itself really matter? One might even argue that high-quality stitching might distract the reader/viewer from the fabric-gathering effect. Besides, the world has spandex and lycra now - does anybody even need this technique, other than to make period costumes for Renaissance Festivals? 
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the Smocking (T-H-L-K-D) article is about equal in length to the Textile industry (T-H-L-K-D) article, and actually has better sourcing - though admittedly the latter has an offshoot, Textile manufacture during the Industrial Revolution (T-H-L-K-D) that's also about the same length.
Posted by: Tarc
QUOTE(Enric_Naval @ Wed 3rd March 2010, 4:47pm)
So make a better smocking sampler, photograph it, and impress us with your workmanship.
I'd rather see an article with no images than one with poor-quality freebies. This is like the case with Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Rama (T-H-L-K-D), and admin who goes on crusades against fair-use photographs, subbing them for his own MS Paint-quality reproductions.
Posted by: Kelly Martin
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 12:36pm)
I hate to play Devil's Advocate here, but if the point is to show how the fabric is gathered, does the quality of the stitching itself really matter? One might even argue that high-quality stitching might distract the reader/viewer from the fabric-gathering effect.
Of course, the photographs in that book were taken by a professional and the articles being photographed were produced by a master of the craft. Neither statement can be said, without laughter, regarding Durova.
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(Peter Damian @ Thu 4th March 2010, 6:24pm)
QUOTE(Kwork @ Thu 4th March 2010, 6:08pm)
I suppose another option would be to upload this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37869936@N00/493663266
or something better yet to Commons. Then you could get rid of the embarrassing quality crap in the article.
That one is also quite horrible, though in a different way.
I am not an expert on embroidery, so I could be wrong, but if the intent is to show what a good quality example looks like, I think that image would probably do. There is no need to think in terms of how much you personally would want to wear it.
Posted by: Somey
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 4th March 2010, 12:48pm)
Of course, the photographs in that book were taken by a professional and the articles being photographed were produced by a master of the craft. Neither statement can be said, without laughter, regarding Durova.
Well then, I guess we're back to the same question we've always had about Durova, i.e., does she even realize what she's doing? I'd like to think have a healthy respect for women with big egos, even if they occasionally do things that suggest outright delusional thinking. But maybe I'm some sort of "reverse-sexist" for thinking along those lines.
Anyway, we should be glad it's just the article on Smocking, rather than Snogging (T-H-L-K-D) - the photo that accompanies the Snogging article isn't really all that bad, though I suppose it too would be better if it were done by professionals.
Posted by: Tarc
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 2:26pm)
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 4th March 2010, 12:48pm)
Of course, the photographs in that book were taken by a professional and the articles being photographed were produced by a master of the craft. Neither statement can be said, without laughter, regarding Durova.
Well then, I guess we're back to the same question we've always had about Durova, i.e., does she even realize what she's doing? I'd like to think have a healthy respect for women with big egos, even if they occasionally do things that suggest outright delusional thinking. But maybe I'm some sort of "reverse-sexist" for thinking along those lines.
Anyway, we should be glad it's just the article on Smocking, rather than Snogging (T-H-L-K-D) - the photo that accompanies the Snogging article isn't really all that bad, though I suppose it too would be better if it were done by professionals.
NEEDS MOAR TONGUE
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 7:26pm)
QUOTE(Kelly Martin @ Thu 4th March 2010, 12:48pm)
Of course, the photographs in that book were taken by a professional and the articles being photographed were produced by a master of the craft. Neither statement can be said, without laughter, regarding Durova.
Well then, I guess we're back to the same question we've always had about Durova, i.e., does she even realize what she's doing? I'd like to think have a healthy respect for women with big egos, even if they occasionally do things that suggest outright delusional thinking. But maybe I'm some sort of "reverse-sexist" for thinking along those lines.
Anyway, we should be glad it's just the article on Smocking, rather than Snogging (T-H-L-K-D) - the photo that accompanies the Snogging article isn't really all that bad, though I suppose it too would be better if it were done by professionals.
People generally think they are doing the right thing, even if they are mistaken. The problem gets bigger when administrators, who are cops, start to enjoy using their authority while knowing they can usually get away with misuse. (I understand Durova is a retired wiki-cop, but she has kept plenty of clout.) There is no one to protect WP users from their protectors. It could be worse, but in kind it is the same as the violant misuses of (for example) NYPD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUkiyBVytRQ&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5I_lwQyxNI
Posted by: Somey
Well, let's be somewhat fair about this - I don't think this is abuse that regular users need protection from. At worst, it's just some combination of egotism and self-promotion masquerading as a desire to provide helpful illustrations, which just happen to be not that good.
I say "self-promotion" despite the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that I don't really know what Durova does for a living. Some of you may recall this topic, in which I myself http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5575&view=findpost&p=19300, in that case by Makemi (T-C-L-K-R-D)
and Mindspillage (T-C-L-K-R-D)
:
QUOTE(Me)
Think about it - if you're, let's say, a harpist who plays at wedding receptions and corporate functions, how much more impressive is it to tell prospective clients that if they want to hear one of your recordings, they just have to go check out the article on "Harp" in Wikipedia? Rather than going to your own personal website? That would be a pretty big selling point, seems to me... I realize it's all done within the rules, but you could probably use that to increase your performance fees pretty substantially!
Obviously it would be extremely hypocritical for Durova to do something like that, not to mention risky given the quality of the stitching in question. But I guess that sort of goes without saying at this point.
Posted by: Eva Destruction
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 8:45pm)
I say "self-promotion" despite the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that I don't really know what Durova does for a living.
"http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lise-broer/5/869/587", apparently. I don't know if that's a fancy way of saying "freelance subeditor".
Posted by: The Adversary
An illustration in this article can serve two purposes; to show how great the finished work can be (like the Holbein-painting) ..or a "how to" picture. And seriously: would you try to do any of the smocking techniques from Durovas picture? I certainly would not. (As for showing great finished work, there are many pictures on commons; what is needed is a "how to".)
And l agree with Kelly: I have collected several books on a special ethnic type of embroidery these last few years, and, even with my limited interest: I could do that embroidery (if I wanted to!) based on the pictures in those books.
Again; I feel, in one way very badly criticizing Durova on this, as she is one of the few who has done long-term work in the textile/embroidery area. Beggars cannot be choosers, and all that. 
The problem is: when someone put up "any" bad work; won't that put off improvement in the future? I think it will. And I think Durova needs some hints, hints, nudge, nudge, that she should concentrate her activities on something else than doing smocking samplers in the future.
I've seen this before: when people work in "low-intensity" areas in wp, it can be easy to get a rather false picture of the value of your own work. People simply don't get enough feedback.
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 8:26pm)
Anyway, we should be glad it's just the article on Smocking, rather than Snogging (T-H-L-K-D) - the photo that accompanies the Snogging article isn't really all that bad, though I suppose it too would be better if it were done by professionals.
To certain editors on wp: Dont.Even.Think.About.It. 
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 6:36pm)
Besides, the world has spandex and lycra now
Er - no. It has elastane. This is also known as spandex especially in the USA but according to the BBC spandex is actually a brand name. Lycra is the brand name for spandex used by Du Pont.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A676262
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Spandex.html
Posted by: thekohser
Can't some of this smocking be done so that "M Y W I K I B I Z" appears in the stitching?
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Thu 4th March 2010, 1:02pm)
Again; I feel, in one way very badly criticizing Durova on this, as she is one of the few who has done long-term work in the textile/embroidery area. Beggars cannot be choosers, and all that.
I don't feel badly about criticizing Durova. She (usually) deserves it.
Wikipedia: The Beggar's Encyclopedia!
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:12am)
Can't some of this smocking be done so that "M Y W I K I B I Z" appears in the stitching?
Heh; do like me: I order all my embroidery on ebay these days.
So much easier than relying on Durovas pictures!
Posted by: tarantino
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Thu 4th March 2010, 11:05pm)
QUOTE(Somey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 6:36pm)
Besides, the world has spandex and lycra now
Er - no. It has elastane. This is also known as spandex especially in the USA but according to the BBC spandex is actually a brand name. Lycra is the brand name for spandex used by Du Pont.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A676262
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Spandex.html
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
Posted by: Jon Awbrey
Spandex Ballet
Posted by: RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:28am)
Spandex Ballet
Posted by: Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(RDH(Ghost In The Machine) @ Thu 4th March 2010, 10:49pm)
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:28am)
Spandex Ballet
Gawd Wins Again …
Jon
Posted by: RDH(Ghost In The Machine)
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:54am)
Gawd Wins Again …
Jon
Teehee
Posted by: Enric_Naval
QUOTE(thekohser @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:12am)
Can't some of this smocking be done so that "M Y W I K I B I Z" appears in the stitching?
You could pay someone to make it and upload it to wikipedia. Oh wait....
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
Posted by: Eva Destruction
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Fri 5th March 2010, 8:21pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
Yes, that's the main problem with it.
Posted by: Jon Awbrey
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:21pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
See http://www.pandora.com/music/song/monkees/last+train+to+clarksville
Jon
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Jon Awbrey @ Thu 4th March 2010, 8:28pm)
Spandex Ballet
Very nice. Spandau Ballet can be applied to somebody assisting Rudolf Hess to a temps levé sauté that lasted many minutes. That's major hang time.
Posted by: Alison
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Fri 5th March 2010, 12:21pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
Why don't you just bop on over there and fix it? You do have an account still ... right?
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Alison @ Fri 5th March 2010, 6:57pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Fri 5th March 2010, 12:21pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
Why don't you just bop on over there and fix it? You do have an account still ... right?
Alas, no. If only it was on Wikiquote....
Posted by: tarantino
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 6th March 2010, 1:57am)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Fri 5th March 2010, 12:21pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 3:24am)
See also http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&diff=17650&oldid=17295.
What a stupid article. It doesnt mention elastane.
Why don't you just bop on over there and fix it? You do have an account still ... right?
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&action=history featuring Ropeuser and Vicky.
Eric starts http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=28516 on Feb 12.
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Whale_tail&action=history on Feb 13.
Posted by: Alison
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 6:49pm)
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Spandex_fetishism&action=history featuring Ropeuser and Vicky.
That name 'Vicky' sounds awfully familiar. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=7391 could I have heard of it before .....
Posted by: tarantino
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 6th March 2010, 2:54am)
That name 'Vicky' sounds awfully familiar. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=7391 could I have heard of it before .....
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Balzac&page=User%3ATaxwoman&year=&month=-1
10:42, 18 September 2008 Balzac (Talk | contribs) has renamed User:Taxwoman to "Vicky" ‎ (1,661 edits. Reason: request of user)
Posted by: Wiki Witch of the West
Wow, it's amazing that this thread went on for several days and started over a brief mention at my user page.
The reason for avoiding Flickr for this topic is quite simple: original creative designs in the craft arts are copyrightable. Many people don't know that; also many people don't understand what a derivative work is.
The safest way to avoid copyright infringements in crafted items is to upload one's own original designs.
Posted by: Somey
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 12:58pm)
The safest way to avoid copyright infringements in crafted items is to upload one's own original designs.
You're basically just laughing at the rest of us at this point, aren't you?
Personally, I think it's a lovely design. In fact, I'm thinking of having my entire house redone around that basic motif, and possibly the landscaping too...! It would be a lot more practical than http://dornob.com/inverted-art-house-designed-upside-down-inside-out/, I'll tell ya that.
Posted by: GlassBeadGame
It won't have evolved completely in the Free Kulture cycle until the stitches are arranged into a penis pattern.
Posted by: Wiki Witch of the West
QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 6th March 2010, 7:20pm)
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 12:58pm)
The safest way to avoid copyright infringements in crafted items is to upload one's own original designs.
You're basically just laughing at the rest of us at this point, aren't you?
Personally, I think it's a lovely design. In fact, I'm thinking of having my entire house redone around that basic motif, and possibly the landscaping too...! It would be a lot more practical than http://dornob.com/inverted-art-house-designed-upside-down-inside-out/, I'll tell ya that.
Actually that's a straightforward explanation, Somey. If you rummage around the old archives of my blog you'll see that the reason behind it has something to do with the mom-and-pop nature of the craft art business. Imports have risen to the North American market, a substantial portion of which are knockoffs of craft designs. A couple of years ago I wrote a GA about Navajo rugs, part of which mentioned that factor. It simply isn't possible to live in North America on the kind of wages that prevail in Thailand or China.
So when Wikimedians upload their own original designs, it's less about the quality of the material than about respecting intellectual property rights.
With regard to the smocking example that started this thread, it was useful in the article to show examples of the major stitches.
Posted by: Kwork
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 6:58pm)
Wow, it's amazing that this thread went on for several days and started over a brief mention at my user page.
The reason for avoiding Flickr for this topic is quite simple: original creative designs in the craft arts are copyrightable. Many people don't know that; also many people don't understand what a derivative work is.
The safest way to avoid copyright infringements in crafted items is to upload one's own original designs.
My understanding is that the copyright applies to reproductions of art work, or the craft items. For instance, if a person buys a sculpture they own the sculpture but not have a right to sell copies of the sculpture. That remains the right of the artist.
The main complication is always Wikimedia Commons requirement that images not only have a commons license, but that the license allow commercial reproduction. I wish that was not a Commons requirement for images, and do not understand why it is.
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(Somey @ Sat 6th March 2010, 7:20pm)
It would be a lot more practical than http://dornob.com/inverted-art-house-designed-upside-down-inside-out/, I'll tell ya that.
"—And He Built a Crooked House—" (T-H-L-K-D)
Posted by: Wiki Witch of the West
QUOTE(Kwork @ Sat 6th March 2010, 10:55pm)
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 6:58pm)
Wow, it's amazing that this thread went on for several days and started over a brief mention at my user page.
The reason for avoiding Flickr for this topic is quite simple: original creative designs in the craft arts are copyrightable. Many people don't know that; also many people don't understand what a derivative work is.
The safest way to avoid copyright infringements in crafted items is to upload one's own original designs.
My understanding is that the copyright applies to reproductions of art work, or the craft items. For instance, if a person buys a sculpture they own the sculpture but not have a right to sell copies of the sculpture. That remains the right of the artist.
The main complication is always Wikimedia Commons requirement that images not only have a commons license, but that the license allow commercial reproduction. I wish that was not a Commons requirement for images, and do not understand why it is.
It has to do with the type of license structure WMF sites operate under. Wikipedia allows commercial reproductions of its articles so media has to be basically compatible with that.
In the unlikely event that Somey wants to rececorate along the themes of my craft designs he's welcome to. He could even open a redecoration business themed after my little goodies.
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 6:33pm)
In the unlikely event that Somey wants to rececorate along the themes of my craft designs he's welcome to. He could even open a redecoration business themed after my little goodies.
I will shop there if Somey names the place "Smockpuppets".
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 7:03pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 6th March 2010, 2:54am)
That name 'Vicky' sounds awfully familiar. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=7391 could I have heard of it before .....
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Balzac&page=User%3ATaxwoman&year=&month=-110:42, 18 September 2008 Balzac (Talk | contribs) has renamed User:Taxwoman to "Vicky" ‎ (1,661 edits. Reason: request of user)
Give it up, MB. You're done.
Posted by: Lar
QUOTE(Kwork @ Sat 6th March 2010, 5:55pm)
The main complication is always Wikimedia Commons requirement that images not only have a commons license, but that the license allow commercial reproduction. I wish that was not a Commons requirement for images, and do not understand why it is.
Downstream usage. Some WP mirrors are commercial. Whether that's a good reason or not, that's why.
Posted by: Wiki Witch of the West
QUOTE(Lar @ Sun 7th March 2010, 12:49am)
QUOTE(Kwork @ Sat 6th March 2010, 5:55pm)
The main complication is always Wikimedia Commons requirement that images not only have a commons license, but that the license allow commercial reproduction. I wish that was not a Commons requirement for images, and do not understand why it is.
Downstream usage. Some WP mirrors are commercial. Whether that's a good reason or not, that's why.
Lar states it well.
And lol Greg.
Actually Commons has http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Troll_sockpuppets entirely populated with my crafts.
Posted by: Alison
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 6th March 2010, 4:47pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 7:03pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 6th March 2010, 2:54am)
That name 'Vicky' sounds awfully familiar. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=7391 could I have heard of it before .....
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Balzac&page=User%3ATaxwoman&year=&month=-110:42, 18 September 2008 Balzac (Talk | contribs) has renamed User:Taxwoman to "Vicky" ‎ (1,661 edits. Reason: request of user)
Give it up, MB. You're done.
Obvious sock is obvious
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(Wiki Witch of the West @ Sat 6th March 2010, 11:39pm)
With regard to the smocking example that started this thread, it was useful in the article to show examples of the major stitches.
hmmm, not really.
QUOTE(Alison @ Sun 7th March 2010, 9:01am)
QUOTE(EricBarbour @ Sat 6th March 2010, 4:47pm)
QUOTE(tarantino @ Fri 5th March 2010, 7:03pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sat 6th March 2010, 2:54am)
That name 'Vicky' sounds awfully familiar. http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=7391 could I have heard of it before .....
http://www.londonfetishscene.com/wipi/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Balzac&page=User%3ATaxwoman&year=&month=-110:42, 18 September 2008 Balzac (Talk | contribs) has renamed User:Taxwoman to "Vicky" ‎ (1,661 edits. Reason: request of user)
Give it up, Baxter. You're done.
Obvious sock is obvious
His fakeness was established back in Desember, with http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=27627&view=findpost&p=209612. (Hint: the Danish is completely wrong. No Dane would write: "Jeg er godt".... But use an automatic translator on "I am fine"..and you wil get it)
(Eric: nice lolcat
)
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:10pm)
(Hint: the Danish is completely wrong. No Dane would write: "Jeg er godt".... But use an automatic translator on "I am fine"..and you wil get it)
This is from someone who can't spell "will" but claims to speak English.
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 6:40pm)
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:10pm)
(Hint: the Danish is completely wrong. No Dane would write: "Jeg er godt".... But use an automatic translator on "I am fine"..and you wil get it)
This is from someone who can't spell "will" but claims to speak English.
Silly man. I only claim to speak broken English perfectly.... but you claimed to be Danish...
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:56pm)
Silly man. I only claim to speak broken English perfectly.... but you claimed to be Danish...
Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly. Evidently you have found a translator that follows the correct rules of Danish grammar not the sort of vulgar patois that Danes of your acquaintance evidently speak.
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
Posted by: Alison
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:25pm)
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:56pm)
Silly man. I only claim to speak broken English perfectly.... but you claimed to be Danish...
Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly. Evidently you have found a translator that follows the correct rules of Danish grammar not the sort of vulgar patois that Danes of your acquaintance evidently speak.
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
... and it's time to find a new sock on WP, 'Giselle'
Posted by: Trick cyclist
QUOTE(Alison @ Sun 7th March 2010, 10:39pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:25pm)
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
... and it's time to find a new sock on WP, 'Giselle'
You too. And you're someone who really ought to know better. I won't deign to ask who 'Giselle' is.
Posted by: The Adversary
ooopsh Ole.Holm (T-C-L-K-R-D)
seem to have been nuked
He better ask to be unblocked in nice, unvulgar Danish!
Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:54pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sun 7th March 2010, 10:39pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:25pm)
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
... and it's time to find a new sock on WP, 'Giselle'
You too. And you're someone who really ought to know better. I won't deign to ask who 'Giselle' is.
Here, Mike, let me refresh your memory. As you wrote to me a few years back using your "Vicky" AKA Taxwoman persona:
QUOTE
Three years ago, I only knew Giselle as some little twerp who ran
round after Rachel Brown because their fathers were old friends. My
opinion of her changed dramatically when Rachel got into her
now-notorious spat with SlimVirgin. Rachel got incredibly stressed
out. Giselle rushed to help her; I and others followed. SlimVirgin
got us all (except Rachel) banned. Rachel, though not banned, stopped
editing even before the ban because the stress was too much. I'm
pleased to say that Rachel made a rapid recovery, but we never mention
Wikipedia to her! Giselle was an incredible tower of strength, and
I'd never have pulled Rachel through so quickly without her. For that
alone, she gets my everlasting gratitude.
round after Rachel Brown because their fathers were old friends. My
opinion of her changed dramatically when Rachel got into her
now-notorious spat with SlimVirgin. Rachel got incredibly stressed
out. Giselle rushed to help her; I and others followed. SlimVirgin
got us all (except Rachel) banned. Rachel, though not banned, stopped
editing even before the ban because the stress was too much. I'm
pleased to say that Rachel made a rapid recovery, but we never mention
Wikipedia to her! Giselle was an incredible tower of strength, and
I'd never have pulled Rachel through so quickly without her. For that
alone, she gets my everlasting gratitude.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Sun 7th March 2010, 4:03pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:54pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sun 7th March 2010, 10:39pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:25pm)
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
... and it's time to find a new sock on WP, 'Giselle'
You too. And you're someone who really ought to know better. I won't deign to ask who 'Giselle' is.
Here, Mike, let me refresh your memory. As you wrote to me a few years back using your "Vicky" AKA Taxwoman persona:
QUOTE
Three years ago, I only knew Giselle as some little twerp who ran
round after Rachel Brown because their fathers were old friends. My
opinion of her changed dramatically when Rachel got into her
now-notorious spat with SlimVirgin. Rachel got incredibly stressed
out. Giselle rushed to help her; I and others followed. SlimVirgin
got us all (except Rachel) banned. Rachel, though not banned, stopped
editing even before the ban because the stress was too much. I'm
pleased to say that Rachel made a rapid recovery, but we never mention
Wikipedia to her! Giselle was an incredible tower of strength, and
I'd never have pulled Rachel through so quickly without her. For that
alone, she gets my everlasting gratitude.
round after Rachel Brown because their fathers were old friends. My
opinion of her changed dramatically when Rachel got into her
now-notorious spat with SlimVirgin. Rachel got incredibly stressed
out. Giselle rushed to help her; I and others followed. SlimVirgin
got us all (except Rachel) banned. Rachel, though not banned, stopped
editing even before the ban because the stress was too much. I'm
pleased to say that Rachel made a rapid recovery, but we never mention
Wikipedia to her! Giselle was an incredible tower of strength, and
I'd never have pulled Rachel through so quickly without her. For that
alone, she gets my everlasting gratitude.
The memory of computer data-retieval systems is so much better than our own, as to be shocking. We all walk around in a fog of half forgotten acts and facts, and now, suddenly, we find that the internet knows our past better than we know it ourselves.
It's unnnatural. Humans didn't evolve to live in such circumstances. No wonder its forever disorienting.
It's especially hard on that subspecies of human known as the bullshit artist, grifter, or ever-moving conman. Those guys even have themselves convinced, or they wouldn't be such great liars. But the computer follows them. Perhaps for the first time in human history we see the natural history of such types.
And it's not pretty!
Posted by: thekohser
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:54pm)
QUOTE(Alison @ Sun 7th March 2010, 10:39pm)
QUOTE(Trick cyclist @ Sun 7th March 2010, 2:25pm)
I am now putting you on ignore. Good night.
... and it's time to find a new sock on WP, 'Giselle'
You too. And you're someone who really ought to know better. I won't deign to ask who 'Giselle' is.
I love it when you can watch the sock unravel before your eyes.
Posted by: Somey
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 7th March 2010, 6:03pm)
I love it when you can watch the sock unravel before your eyes.
Well, I feel really bad now, since it was apparently http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=28751&view=findpost&p=224586 that initiated this whole series of posts, and now he's going to have to start a whole new account!
Still, I thought he nearly had it this time - true, I'd figured it out after about 8 posts and I even told a bunch of folks, but a lot of them didn't believe me at first - because he'd been so well-behaved and clever about avoiding the usual pitfalls. Even when I insisted, everybody seemed willing to go along with letting him continue with it, as a kind of observational experiment... Only to have the whole thing ruined by me, of all people. (I'd better just steer clear of all-natural fibers of all kinds, from now on.)
Maybe I can blame Durova, though? Heck, she'd probably appreciate the additional notch-in-the-fuselage.
Posted by: EricBarbour
QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 7th March 2010, 4:35pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 7th March 2010, 6:03pm)
I love it when you can watch the sock unravel before your eyes.
Well, I feel really bad now, since it was apparently http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=28751&view=findpost&p=224586 that initiated this whole series of posts, and now he's going to have to start a whole new account! QUOTE
Maybe I can blame Durova, though? Heck, she'd probably appreciate the additional notch-in-the-fuselage.
Always, always blame her. She's good for it.
Posted by: Herschelkrustofsky
QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 7th March 2010, 4:35pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 7th March 2010, 6:03pm)
I love it when you can watch the sock unravel before your eyes.
Well, I feel really bad now, since it was apparently http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=28751&view=findpost&p=224586 that initiated this whole series of posts, and now he's going to have to start a whole new account!
Posted by: CharlotteWebb
QUOTE(Somey @ Mon 8th March 2010, 12:35am)
Still, I thought he nearly had it this time - true, I'd figured it out after about 8 posts and I even told a bunch of folks, but a lot of them didn't believe me at first - because he'd been so well-behaved and clever about avoiding the usual pitfalls.
Cough, cough, Mandy.
Posted by: Mike H
Now I don't have a faux-Danish speaker to speak Danish with. Meget trist.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Sun 7th March 2010, 5:43pm)
QUOTE(Somey @ Sun 7th March 2010, 4:35pm)
QUOTE(thekohser @ Sun 7th March 2010, 6:03pm)
I love it when you can watch the sock unravel before your eyes.
Well, I feel really bad now, since it was apparently http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=28751&view=findpost&p=224586 that initiated this whole series of posts, and now he's going to have to start a whole new account!
Well the new thing was getting an actual live astronomer friend. Can't fake being an astronomer in real-time. But you can if NOT in real-time. Too bad he didn't have an actual live Danish friend.
Note to self, MB.
There's a wonderful Vinge story called True Names. It's pretty much about the VR cyberworld we're familiar with online now, except it was written in 1981 (almost 30 years ago!), long before anything but Compu$erve. And before cyberpunk and Neuromancer and all the rest. The main character is "Mr. Slippery" who is hiding his RL identity for reason that will be familiar to all of us. The new guy who shows up is "The Mailbox" who never interacts in real-time. He turns out to be an AI, except he doesn't think FAST enough to simulate humans in real-time-- only after a lot of processing time. So you just get short cryptic messages from him. Except he obviously has access to vast data-reserves.
That happens also with people simulating other personalities on the web, particularly with skills they don't have, like another language or another area of expertise. MB has always been attracted, nay, fascinated and addicted to, role playing submerging in other identities. He's not just into other personnalities, but their visual avatars which are not obviously avatars. This is a guy who regularly paid a transvestite makeup artist to "do" him, and he's not gay or transexual, nor perhaps even much of a transvestite!
What he WAS interested in, were other people living double-lives.So he's going to be endlessly doing this, and as he gets good at it, the only thing the rest of us who don't have access to his UK IP feed will have, is certain personality quirks he can't hide, plus a rather unusual delay and rather unusually short answers. Like "The Mailbox."
Posted by: Zoloft
These references are a bit shorthand... can anyone point me to a definitive thread or post on this guy?
I am new enough not to know who you're talkin about.
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(Zoloft @ Mon 8th March 2010, 11:59am)
These references are a bit shorthand... can anyone point me to a definitive thread or post on this guy?
I am new enough not to know who you're talkin about.
Most of the good stuff is marinating in a classic thread in the tarpit of La Brea. Mastidons and smilodons and dire wolves down there, mostly.
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=20205
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(Mike H @ Mon 8th March 2010, 9:35am)
Now I don't have a faux-Danish speaker to speak Danish with.
Meget trist.Du kan alltid snakke med meg!
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 8th March 2010, 6:35pm)
So he's going to be endlessly doing this, and as he gets good at it, the only thing the rest of us who don't have access to his UK IP feed will have, is certain personality quirks he can't hide, plus a rather unusual delay and rather unusually short answers. Like "The Mailbox."
For most of us here who are not native English speakers; I can say that getting to know/ imitating another nationality/language is far more difficult than you think. It is not only about correct language/grammar, but more about attitudes, expressions.
Example: Tricky Cyclists sentence above here: "Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly."...is a dead give-away. No native Dane would write/say a thing like that! (Hint: the wrong word is "proud")
Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Mon 8th March 2010, 2:47pm)
QUOTE(Mike H @ Mon 8th March 2010, 9:35am)
Now I don't have a faux-Danish speaker to speak Danish with.
Meget trist.Du kan alltid snakke med meg!
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 8th March 2010, 6:35pm)
So he's going to be endlessly doing this, and as he gets good at it, the only thing the rest of us who don't have access to his UK IP feed will have, is certain personality quirks he can't hide, plus a rather unusual delay and rather unusually short answers. Like "The Mailbox."
For most of us here who are not native English speakers; I can say that getting to know/ imitating another nationality/language is far more difficult than you think. It is not only about correct language/grammar, but more about attitudes, expressions.
Example: Tricky Cyclists sentence above here: "Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly."...is a dead give-away. No native Dane would write/say a thing like that! (Hint: the wrong word is "proud")
Oh, I've no doubt of the truth of what you say. You can (sometimes) use a computer to fake expertise in some field, but you can't use a computer to fake natural language skills with somebody whose native language it is, because natural language translation requires actual sapience, cultural immersion, and a huge non-indexable background that takes years to acquire. Computers can't do it.
That's DOESN'T mean that somebody intent on faking this, and given time, can't do it by simply sponging off a buddy who IS a native speaker. If only a few bits are required, he might even post on a language-learning BBS somewhere, with a translation question, then return with the answer. The same is true of technical questions in a given field which require inference, and can't simply be looked up. But if you KNOW a real astronomer, and aren't under time pressure, you can fake being an astronomer yourself as well as you need to, by simply putting the questions to the real expert. Since, of course, it's not really a "fake" at some level-- when you turn those questions over to somebody else who really IS what you're pretending to be, then you get an answer which does what it's supposed to do.
Posted by: Mike H
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Mon 8th March 2010, 4:47pm)
QUOTE(Mike H @ Mon 8th March 2010, 9:35am)
Now I don't have a faux-Danish speaker to speak Danish with.
Meget trist.Du kan alltid snakke med meg!
Du er en nordmand? Hvor bor du?
Posted by: The Adversary
QUOTE(Mike H @ Mon 8th March 2010, 11:00pm)
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Mon 8th March 2010, 4:47pm)
QUOTE(Mike H @ Mon 8th March 2010, 9:35am)
Now I don't have a faux-Danish speaker to speak Danish with.
Meget trist.Du kan alltid snakke med meg!
Du er en nordmand? Hvor bor du?
Ok, more correct language here would be: "Er du norsk? Hvor bor du?" And ...jeg er litt svensk, litt norsk og litt dansk. Og jeg bor på et jævligt kalt sted nord for Danmark...
QUOTE(Milton Roe @ Mon 8th March 2010, 10:55pm)
That's DOESN'T mean that somebody intent on faking this, and given time, can't do it by simply sponging off a buddy who IS a native speaker. If only a few bits are required, he might even post on a language-learning BBS somewhere, with a translation question, then return with the answer. The same is true of technical questions in a given field which require inference, and can't simply be looked up. But if you KNOW a real astronomer, and aren't under time pressure, you can fake being an astronomer yourself as well as you need to, by simply putting the questions to the real expert. Since, of course, it's not really a "fake" at some level-- when you turn those questions over to somebody else who really IS what you're pretending to be, then you get an answer which does what it's supposed to do.
Yes: if you have, say, an astronomer friend, you can "fake" being an astronomer by getting him/her to answer relevant questions for you. And you will know what specific questions you needed an answer to. Any work/occupation-related stuff is easier to fake, as it is more limited.
Faking a nationality, I would say, is far, far more difficult...as that involves, well, everything! I recall one excellent English teacher of mine spending lots of time on this. Say, just order in a restaurant, correctly, in English.... We trolls, (even a polite, educated troll!) will tell the waiter, translated: "I want blabla." But directly translated into English this would be terribly rude (so I was told..) there you have to say "May I have blabla, please?
This goes on every level. First time I worked with some English guys, I described a guy X: "X is definitely not stupid". One of the English guys got very angry with me, and exclaimed: "What do you mean, saying "X is not stupid"! He is brilliant! A genius!"
Me: "But, but, but.... that is what I am saying...."
Etc, etc..
-so, if you just want to fake an occupation, then you don't have to guard every single sentence you say--you only have to be guarded when talking about the work itself. And 90%+ of the time you are not "talking shop".
But, I don't think the Poetgang even considered the possibility that a sentence like "Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly" would be a dead give-away. If you are going to fake another nationality online, you really need a real-life expert to check each and every sentence you write....
(Hope I'm not giving him any ideas, here
)Posted by: Milton Roe
QUOTE(The Adversary @ Mon 8th March 2010, 5:21pm)
But, I don't think the Poetgang even considered the possibility that a sentence like "Yes I am proud to speak Danish correctly" would be a dead give-away. If you are going to fake another nationality online, you really need a real-life expert to check each and every sentence you write....
(Hope I'm not giving him any ideas, here
)You are.
It learns. It lives.
