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> Antisemitism by accident?, The propagation of a slur
gomi
post Tue 7th June 2011, 7:13pm
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I recently came across Sue Blackwell (T-H-L-K-D), a short biography of a relatively unremarkable British academic. However, she has operated a website that supports (gasp) human rights for Palestinians. As a result, she has been accused (without any further evidence) of being antisemitic. That accusation (originally added to the article in 2005 by an anon IP), and her subsequent denial, represent the only two "reliable sources" in the biography, the only other citation being to a diatribe that the academic co-authored and hosts herself.

This is a persistent problem on Wikipedia: if you want to attack a (semi-)prominent person, then accuse them of antisemitism, get it printed somewhere, at which point the accusation becomes sourced, along with the denial, if any, despite the merits of the accusation. Am I the only one who sees this as a Yellow badge (T-H-L-K-D) in reverse? It is part and parcel of the outlandish position some take that any criticism of the actions of the government of Israel is evidence of a hatred of the Jewish religion.
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Silver seren
post Tue 7th June 2011, 7:54pm
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While anti-Zionism is most definitely not antisemitism,

it should be noted that Blackwell is really anti-Zionist. She calls it an "illegitimate state" and seems to be arguing that all of the Israelis should leave and give the entire country back to the Palestinians.

However, on the other hand, she's started a campaign among Britain's intellectuals to boycott Israeli academics because of their apartheid-like methods, including mass discrimination in their educational practices, which includes teaching children that Palestinians are evil, horrible monster-people.

Which is obviously wrong, so at the very least, in terms of her beliefs and actions against Israeli academics, I agree with that. I just very much disagree with her anti-Zionist stance.
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gomi
post Tue 7th June 2011, 8:27pm
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I would probably disagree with her anti-Israel stance as well, if I cared enough about her to do the research. I think the real question is whether she deserves a Wikipedia biography at all. I should have stated that more clearly, perhaps. Some of these bios exist only to attack people, and we would all be better off if they simply didn't get the attention, a la Streisand effect (T-H-L-K-D).
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A Horse With No Name
post Tue 7th June 2011, 8:44pm
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QUOTE(gomi @ Tue 7th June 2011, 4:27pm) *

I would probably disagree with her anti-Israel stance as well, if I cared enough about her to do the research. I think the real question is whether she deserves a Wikipedia biography at all. I should have stated that more clearly, perhaps. Some of these bios exist only to attack people, and we would all be better off if they simply didn't get the attention, a la Streisand effect (T-H-L-K-D).


Barbra Streisand is anti-Zionist? Wow...someone should update her Wikipedia biography. wink.gif
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Silver seren
post Tue 7th June 2011, 8:57pm
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Well, there is certainly much more information about her that could be in the article, that's for sure. She's been reported on in the news with quite a bit of regularity during the past ten years.
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Sololol
post Tue 7th June 2011, 9:10pm
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Good find. The 2005 IP edit is more neutral than "Blackwell herself was labeled [[antisemitic]] by some." which looks like an Ironduke addition. The amusing bit? Nothing in the source labels her as anti-Semitic just saying she was "accused of promoting anti-semitism". There's a small but very important distinction between the two.
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Herschelkrustofsky
post Tue 7th June 2011, 9:26pm
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QUOTE(Silver seren @ Tue 7th June 2011, 12:54pm) *

While anti-Zionism is most definitely not antisemitism,

it should be noted that Blackwell is really anti-Zionist. She calls it an "illegitimate state" and seems to be arguing that all of the Israelis should leave and give the entire country back to the Palestinians.

However, on the other hand, she's started a campaign among Britain's intellectuals to boycott Israeli academics because of their apartheid-like methods, including mass discrimination in their educational practices, which includes teaching children that Palestinians are evil, horrible monster-people.

Which is obviously wrong, so at the very least, in terms of her beliefs and actions against Israeli academics, I agree with that. I just very much disagree with her anti-Zionist stance.
The first sentence is all that matters. If someone is anti-Zionist, say she is anti-Zionist. To say she is antisemitic when she is not, is a damnable lie.
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gomi
post Thu 9th June 2011, 6:40pm
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Congratulations to Nomoskedasticity (T-C-L-K-R-D) for nominating the article for deletion.. Vote early and often!
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Wikifan
post Thu 9th June 2011, 10:02pm
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Birm source is odd, links to trial sites. Meh.

This is the best I could find:

QUOTE


The notion of a boycott has gone from a phenomenon involving a few extreme individuals to something approaching legitimacy. It is slowly being allowed to become mainstream," he said. "Anti-Israeli campaigners lament the fact that they are labelled anti-Semitic and make a distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation. They attack Israel not for what it does but for what it is."

reliable souce?

Anyways, if Black inadvertently lend her "credibility" at a British university to an antisemitic website then that's her fault. The real problem in Britain is that it seems to be more impolite to accuse someone of antisemitism than to actually be antisemitic. What is hilarious is that the whole-sale boycott of Israel academics is a huge blow to European-type boycotts of Israel because some of the most hard-line Israel critics are Israeli academics.

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Herschelkrustofsky
post Thu 9th June 2011, 10:06pm
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 3:02pm) *

However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation.
There is no other religious or ethnic group that "defines itself as a nation." At least not nowadays.
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Wikifan
post Thu 9th June 2011, 10:50pm
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 9th June 2011, 10:06pm) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 3:02pm) *

However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation.
There is no other religious or ethnic group that "defines itself as a nation." At least not nowadays.


Yeah, the Jewish people are a "nation." And yes, historically many religions have described themselves as nations and dimensions of Islam call for a unified nation of Muslims.

Read a book man.

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Milton Roe
post Fri 10th June 2011, 12:05am
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 3:50pm) *

QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 9th June 2011, 10:06pm) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 3:02pm) *

However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation.
There is no other religious or ethnic group that "defines itself as a nation." At least not nowadays.


Yeah, the Jewish people are a "nation." And yes, historically many religions have described themselves as nations and dimensions of Islam call for a unified nation of Muslims.

Read a book man.

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." Said one famously smart guy before his own ox was gored and found himself backpeddling. Man is ever the rationalizing animal.

In the US we require that foreign nationals register as such, and be here on visa or other permission. Otherwise, they have to go. If you want to play by those rules, you should play by those rules.
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SB_Johnny
post Fri 10th June 2011, 12:43am
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QUOTE(Herschelkrustofsky @ Thu 9th June 2011, 6:06pm) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 3:02pm) *

However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation.
There is no other religious or ethnic group that "defines itself as a nation." At least not nowadays.

You seem to be forgetting about the Red Sox Nation and the Whodat Nation. rolleyes.gif
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Wikifan
post Fri 10th June 2011, 12:48am
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[quote name='Milton Roe' date='Fri 10th June 2011, 12:05am' post='276626']
[quote name='Wikifan' post='276616' date='Thu 9th June 2011, 3:50pm']
[quote name='Herschelkrustofsky' post='276613' date='Thu 9th June 2011, 10:06pm']
[quote name='Wikifan' post='276612' date='Thu 9th June 2011, 3:02pm']
However, anti-Zionism denies an entire people the right to define themselves as a nation.
[/quote] There is no other religious or ethnic group that "defines itself as a nation." At least not nowadays.
[/quote]

Yeah, the Jewish people are a "nation." And yes, historically many religions have described themselves as nations and dimensions of Islam call for a unified nation of Muslims.

Read a book man.
[/quote]

[quote]
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." Said one famously smart guy before his own ox was gored and found himself backpeddling. Man is ever the rationalizing animal.

In the US we require that foreign nationals register as such, and be here on visa or other permission. Otherwise, they have to go. If you want to play by those rules, you should play by those rules.
[/quote]

i don't know what you're inferring about foreign nations in the US. the claim that the jewish people are not a nation is outrageous.

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It's the blimp, Frank
post Fri 10th June 2011, 2:02am
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QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 10:50pm) *

And yes, historically many religions have described themselves as nations and dimensions of Islam call for a unified nation of Muslims.

Read a book man.
So, in order to avoid denying them their sacred rights, should we then take everyone who professes to be Muslim and settle them in whatever lands they may have occupied at one time or another, evicting other peoples as necessary?
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Wikifan
post Fri 10th June 2011, 3:18am
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QUOTE(It's the blimp, Frank @ Fri 10th June 2011, 2:02am) *

QUOTE(Wikifan @ Thu 9th June 2011, 10:50pm) *

And yes, historically many religions have described themselves as nations and dimensions of Islam call for a unified nation of Muslims.

Read a book man.
So, in order to avoid denying them their sacred rights, should we then take everyone who professes to be Muslim and settle them in whatever lands they may have occupied at one time or another, evicting other peoples as necessary?


it seems the muslim and arab world has already done that in the last 14 centuries. biggrin.gif
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